Maybe Novel ward questions

[Veknironth]

Well, a guy wants to bring in a Diabolist so all the ward questions are arising. I assume some of these might have been answered somewhere and I apologize if I'm bringing them up again.

First, the guy has what I think is a BS interpretation of how Area of Effect Wards work. He is under the impression that you can put them on whatever, and carry them around unactivated. Then, when needed you can whip one out and lay it on the ground, where it is now stationary. To me, the ward has to be put on the object and the line " Such wards can be placed on large stationary objectssuch as floors, walls, ceilings, archways, locked doors, large trunks, crates, and so on, but not items that are frequently used or carried." would negate this tactic. Like it clearly states that the object can't be carried. But in the "Limitations" it says, "Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects." So, the thought is that the ward can be prepared and carried around but once you activate it, it must be stationary. Now the GM is splitting the baby by saying you would need to affix that ward to a stationary object, but to me that means that the wards are still on the smaller item and that item is now glued to the larger one. But, further down it talks about the area of effect remaining in the same place even after the object is used. I assume they mean something large, like a crate or chest moved with a lot of force.

Now, the question I have is how does the area of the effect work? Is it a globe? If so, can it affect objects behind walls, doors, floors, etc? Things like energy or fire create an blast that would eminate from the ward and be stopped by solid objects. But, what about things like Agony? Would that hit everyone within the sphere of influence? Would it pass through doors or floors?

-Vek
"Wards are poorly written."

[drewkitty ~..~]

Look at the 1st line under the heading "Affixing Wards".
Page 121 PF2 corebook


Now when talking about 'magic circles' as per what is in the summoner character class, I would agree with you, for the most part.

[Library Ogre]

We had an argument about this in the last couple years, in fact, and some of it comes down to edition. I'm gonna assume 2nd edition.

First of all, the "prepared ward" thing is uncharacteristically clear. From page 125, "The Ward Arsenal".

"A Diabolist may carve, paint, or draw a number of ward symbols and affix them on items or an area and leave them without energizing them. These wards and ward phrases are can be used and energized whenever the Magic Scribe desires to do so. With but a few spoken power words and a handful of P.P.E., the wards can be energized in a few seconds (counts as one melee action)."
and a paragraph later
"There is no limit as to how many prepared but not energized wards can be created in advance and carried by the mage, except for time requirements, weight and availability of components."

So, carrying around an unenergized ward is completely legit. But can it be an area affect ward?

The rules about area affect wards say a lot of things. Page 125 says "Area affect wards cannot be placed on living beings."1 That's clear enough. Then page 126 says "To unleash magic on everyone in a particular area, the object or person must bear an area affect ward symbol." is on p. 126. So you can put an area affect ward on a person! It was contradicted in a column and a half of text! But the top of the second column on page 126 says "Likewise, an area affect ward cannot be placed on living people and animals."

Now, I don't have a word count on how long it took to reverse themselves twice, but it wasn't even a full page of text. As I have said many times, Palladium books are not closely written. Trying to read them word for word and argue based on that is futile. The entire game runs on vibes, but people keep insisting on reading them like a contract.

***
My take on the whole "what can have an area affect ward on it" leans more towards the diabolist's favor... the ward can be put on anything that will provide a fairly stable surface to hold it (so probably not cloth, unless it's staked down, and usually not flesh). Unenergized, it is just art. The object can be portable, but once energized, being disturbed by anyone except the diabolist sets the ward off. The area of effect is then centered on where the object was when it was disturbed.

So, for example, I put an area affect ward (the rest of the phrase doesn't matter) on my door. At first, it's just a funny picture. Anyone can touch it. You can rub your butt on it and nothing happens. I then energize it. Once I have energized it, I can go through that door all day. In and out, softly shutting and violently slamming, since I am the diabolist, I can do that for years before without an issue. But if someone else touches it, they will get the full effect of that ward.

I had a diabolist who would actually carry unenergized area affect wards on the inside of his shield. Get in combat, and spend an action and a few PPE to energize it. Then, next action, force-activate it (per page 122). Using an area affect ward as an anti-personnel mine is specifically mentioned as a possibility. Just make sure none of your friends are around.

1 Emphasis added throughout this paragraph.

[JuliusCreed]

Well, a guy wants to bring in a Diabolist so all the ward questions are arising. I assume some of these might have been answered somewhere and I apologize if I'm bringing them up again.

First, the guy has what I think is a BS interpretation of how Area of Effect Wards work. He is under the impression that you can put them on whatever, and carry them around unactivated. Then, when needed you can whip one out and lay it on the ground, where it is now stationary. To me, the ward has to be put on the object and the line " Such wards can be placed on large stationary objectssuch as floors, walls, ceilings, archways, locked doors, large trunks, crates, and so on, but not items that are frequently used or carried." would negate this tactic. Like it clearly states that the object can't be carried. But in the "Limitations" it says, "Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects." So, the thought is that the ward can be prepared and carried around but once you activate it, it must be stationary. Now the GM is splitting the baby by saying you would need to affix that ward to a stationary object, but to me that means that the wards are still on the smaller item and that item is now glued to the larger one. But, further down it talks about the area of effect remaining in the same place even after the object is used. I assume they mean something large, like a crate or chest moved with a lot of force.

Now, the question I have is how does the area of the effect work? Is it a globe? If so, can it affect objects behind walls, doors, floors, etc? Things like energy or fire create an blast that would eminate from the ward and be stopped by solid objects. But, what about things like Agony? Would that hit everyone within the sphere of influence? Would it pass through doors or floors?

-Vek
"Wards are poorly written."

The way I see it, the AoE of a Ward is based on a sphere, its energy radiating out in all directions to affect everyone and everything within its area/sphere of influence. As for being stopped by walls, doors or other solid obstacles, that's a slightly tougher question to answer. Personally, I say it depends largely on how powerful you want to allow your Diabolist to be. Whether or not a ward's effects are impeded by physical barriers can be a massive game changer. For example...
A Diabolist places a ward on a random object in the middle of a 10'x10' room. This room is actually a smaller room located in the center of a larger room, say a 30'x30', thus creating a smaller room within a larger room. Get the picture so far? Okay.
Targets are milling about in both areas of the room within a room when some rando genius disturbs the warded object and sets it off. For the purposes of this explanation, it is an area affect ward that can affect a 50 foot radius. And in this particular case, the ward is going to inflict Fire damage. So, ward gets disturbed and BOOM! Fire erupts from the warded object and surges out in a burning wave, consuming everything in its path. At least it does until it hits that first wall that separates the smaller room from the larger outer room. Everyone and thing inside the smaller room gets toasted while everyone outside is safe thanks to the physical barrier of the wall separating the smaller room from them.
Now, reset the scene. People still wandering around in both areas of the room within a room, genius disturbs the ward and BOOM! Ward goes off again, but this time, the entire area of effect is filled with roaring flames, rendering everyone in both areas of the room within a room into crispy critters because nothing in the entire area of effect is safe from the attack. See what I mean about the kind of power you can have?
Now, just for grins, imagine that instead of a Fire ward, your Diabolist used an Agony ward. Or maybe Burning Pain. Or maybe even Death. With these kind of wards it's pretty difficult to imagine a simple door or wall even slowing the effects of these wards down because they aren't just a simple physical energy attack that you can hide from behind a shield.

All that having been said, I have seen NOTHING in the entire Diabolist section that says that the damage inflicted by Wards, whether a physical energy attack (Fire, Cold, Energy), a mental/emotional alteration (Charm, Fear, Despair) or an abstract magical affliction (Agony, Sleep, Death) are stopped or even hindered by any form of physical barrier. That basically tells me that the second condition of the room within a room scenario described above applies to all wards. In fact, to a point it is even backed up in the Wards section on pages 128 and 129 with the Energy and Fire ward descriptions...

"If combined with an area affect ward, everyone who fails to save vs magic is blasted."

That is the second line in the descriptions of BOTH the Energy and Fire wards. While there is nothing stating the same thing in any of the other wards, there is also nothing stating that any form of physical barrier will impede the effects so make your own decisions on that. As far as I can tell, if you're within the area of effect of an activated ward it WILL affect you regardless of any physical or even magical barriers present short of the Barrier of Thoth (which, as we all know, is a spell of legend that can stop magical effects from passing through it).

I do hope this helps in some way shape or form. Good luck and great gaming!

[Soldier of Od]

For things like fire wards, the blast actually shoots out from the ward itself: Quote: "A bolt of flaming energy shoots from the ward and at the person who disturbed it. If combined with an area affect ward, everyone who fails to save vs magic is blasted", so I would presume from that statement that the fire bolt will only blast people who are in the line of fire, just like a fire bolt shot from someone's hand. The fire can't pass through walls or go around corners.
I would say for the non-physical conditions, like blind or agony, it would effect the entire area, regardless of walls or other obstructions.

[GoliathReturns]

-Vek
"Wards are poorly written."

OK, so, I'm about a month late, but, I'll chime in.

First, we've had the "wards are poorly written" discussion many times in the past.

So, the wards, as written, can be made ahead of time. And they can be carried around, and whatnot, until they are activated. Once activated, THEN it's "this is where they are".

Now, it's not quite as expedient as it would seem, because a ward phrase being used isn't just one ward. In the area effect example above, you have the condition, inflict, area effect. You would need to set all three wards up, carefully, and activate the phrase.

And, you'd better hope none of your allies are in the radius.

There IS an argument to be said if a diabolist could carry, for example, a section of cloth, with the wards already attached, but not activated, to be rolled out and activated at a moments notice. Effective a "ward scroll" for lack of better terms. By the rules, it would work, but I think it violates the INTENT of the rules, but not the letter of them.

--
GS
Yes, I'm that annoying Goliath Strongarm, back from Pergatory

[Veknironth]

Well, regarding Area of Effect Wards. Once you create on and it goes off, is it a one time thing or does the ward effect linger in the area? There is nothing in the book I see either way. It seems like being a one time effect really negates the point of the ward. It's just a ward that will affect someone farther away since it will usually be triggered by the first person who is in the range. But, if it creates this field that afflicts whatever the ward is afflicting then how long does that field last?

-Vek
"My PFRPG would just cut wards out entirely."

[GoliathReturns]

Well, regarding Area of Effect Wards. Once you create on and it goes off, is it a one time thing or does the ward effect linger in the area? There is nothing in the book I see either way. It seems like being a one time effect really negates the point of the ward. It's just a ward that will affect someone farther away since it will usually be triggered by the first person who is in the range. But, if it creates this field that afflicts whatever the ward is afflicting then how long does that field last?

-Vek
"My PFRPG would just cut wards out entirely."

So, yes, one time effect.. Unless you had a permanence ward, which sort of resets it

--GS
My PFRPG wouldn't cut wards out at all, but would expand the section, and make everything much clearer

[Library Ogre]

Well, regarding Area of Effect Wards. Once you create on and it goes off, is it a one time thing or does the ward effect linger in the area? There is nothing in the book I see either way. It seems like being a one time effect really negates the point of the ward. It's just a ward that will affect someone farther away since it will usually be triggered by the first person who is in the range. But, if it creates this field that afflicts whatever the ward is afflicting then how long does that field last?

It lasts the duration of the effect, including modifications for power or permanence.