Anyone else prefer the first edition robotech setting?

[glitterboy2098]

I wasn't clear enough but this was what I was thinking. In the Expanse when the gates open to a thousand new worlds the movement of people from Mars basically destroyed the place while people leaving Earth for the new colonies just gave them new job opportunities and bigger apartments.

The Earth after the RoD seems to really need people and resources and if you can make a colony in a distant star system you can probably rebuild a few cities.

and in southern cross we see that they did rebuild those cities. there is no reason why the UEG couldn't do both at the same time. but Gloval had a point that humanity needed to spread out so that the loss of one world isn't extinction. and given how devastated earth was (it still hasn't recovered much ecologically by the masters war, given the massive barren areas so close to monument) and human nature being what is is, finding people who are willing to board a ship and build their new lives on an alien world instead of earth isn't going to be all that hard. nor would it be hard to find people who insist that "this is our home" even though everyone thing made it their home is now literal dust. the latter would have a bigger struggle really, even getting the UEG support, because an alien world at least would have biospheres that aren't hanging on by a thread. the ecosystems of earth would have be rebuilt practically from scratch in a lot of places.

and the cultural/ethnic thing is largely recognition that in the wake of such a devestating event, the survivors would face the possible loss of traditions, language, culture in the face of population shifts (as survivors gather in the less damaged areas, creating cultural melting pots) as well as cultural frictions (as regional cultures that historically and politically did not get along are suddenly forced to live together, even rely on each other.) this would create a major drive for such cultures to seek preservation in whatever means they can. and signing on to the colony efforts would do that. especially for populations where those historical rivalries stemmed from old political oppressions who's effects rear their heads again as new governments form.. either old oppressive ones reforming or the new ones being dominated by the former underdogs looking to even the score. people who are already refugees fleeing their old homes would make for fairly willing colonial recruitment.

[jaymz]

in the black death the infrastructure (the fields, buildings, livestock, etc) all largely survived, it was just the manpower that was hard to find, and thus became more valuable. (also why the survivors became more prosperous.. they implimented changes to offset the manpower issue, plus now the stuff they needed like land, lifestock, etc became a lot cheaper)

what we see in the last episodes of the macross saga is the opposite. aside from a few cities like new macross, monument, and a few others (various ones that khyron is shown attacking), we're shown populations of people squatting in the ruins of towns, barely getting by. these certainly aren't people from the SDF-1, because why go squat in bits of ruined buildings if you were already living in a pre-fab city? these almost had to be survivors from bombshelters and areas less hard hit. a lot of people in that position would jump at the chance to relocate somewhere that isn't a blasted wasteland and get 3 squares a day and their other needs met. even if it means going to another world. and there would likely be a fair number of ethnic and cultural groups that would be more than willing to be involved in such efforts if it meant getting a home away from another ethnic or cultural group that they have historical animosities with.

that said, colony efforts would cause some friction with people who would rather those resources be used to help rebuild earth itself. which would help explain some of the attitudes the ASC express in the show.

I wasn't clear enough but this was what I was thinking. In the Expanse when the gates open to a thousand new worlds the movement of people from Mars basically destroyed the place while people leaving Earth for the new colonies just gave them new job opportunities and bigger apartments.

The Earth after the RoD seems to really need people and resources and if you can make a colony in a distant star system you can probably rebuild a few cities.

I never did much with this conflict in my games but it would be something to add in for a long campaign.

Since they started off fighting the Zentraedi it makes sense that there may be larger versions for fighting an enemy that size.

Thing is, that's only the novels/comics/RPG. The Tv series makes no such claim as the Zentraedi not only never mention the Invid, no one in the UEF (ASC or REF) know about the Invid BEFORE the end of the 2RW. The dialogue is fairly consistent in that regard. Not only does Major Carpenter not mention some war out in deep space with some heretofore unknown alien species, Admiral Hunter didn't even know who the Invid were when he set down at Point K.

The oversized Iigaa in The Sentinels seems to also match an oversized Iigaa seen in The Invid Invasion (which is almost the size of an Alpha), which also has some weird-looking electrical attack. Suffice to say, it appears that some Invid do get bigger than others. It makes for an interesting discussion on how to rationally explain it without resorting to "Animation Error" (which it clearly is, but isn't fairly helpful).

I have never limited my setting to just things from the Show/Novels/Comics/RPG's because of the errors/differences in how things get interpreted by writers/animators. I take the things I like or sound good to me and mesh them together to fit the narrative I am trying to put forth to my players. As long the setting I put together makes sense to me and them, that is all I worry about.

I agree with you on this. I took the timeline in 1e RPG books and then spiced it up with stuff from the novels to make it fit what we wanted to play. That said, I loved forcing my players to act like they didn't know what the Invid were, how they were targeting them, or the weak spot until they met some people that knew.

The problems really arise within the fandom on this when certain segments choose to ignore what HG, despite the idiocy of their decisions they are still Canon, has done and treat what they believe is the way things are as fact yet its no more than fanfic like what 99% of us not hg affiliated have done for the last 2 decades or more.

I too take what exists and fit it together as best I feel I can.

[ShadowLogan]

Earth's population in 2010 was about six and a half billion people. If 1% survived (and that would be a pessimistic estimate given how many inhabitabed areas seem to have survived)* you'd still have more that 60 million survivors. And at 5 million ships each with crews of thousands, the zentreadi grand fleet would have similar total population.

So post war earth would have tens of millions of zentreadi and tens if not hundreds of millions of humans surviving.

1% human survival rate is much higher than some want to allow based on the dialogue from Ep37, though a comment in TSC would actually require a higher number (and even without TSC, HG's "official" crew numbers for things would also require it).

As for the Zentreadi, the Average Crew Count of the 5 Zentreadi ship types (in RT.com Infopedia) works out to 7,910 combined crew/pilots/troops. Assuming any missing ship classes (like the one Khyron uses in Ep36) do not tilt this number significantly in either direction and recognizing that Dolza's Fortress is not included. The Zentreadi population of all those 5.5million ships (Grand Fleet + Imperial) would mean there are 43,505,000,000 Zentreadi (that's 43.5 BILLION) to start with using that Average crew size. Based on dialogue at least 72% of the Zentreadi ship numbers were destroyed releasing a massive discharge of Protoculture (note the dialogue implies the needle was pegged, though how this value was calculated I don't know I would think the PC discharge of a Scout Vessel would be different than a Destroyer or Dolza's fortress). If only 1% of that starting population survived the battle that would be ~435million based on the Average Crew count (with ~55,000 ships), and dialogue leaves it open that it could be as high as 28%.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The problems really arise within the fandom on this when certain segments choose to ignore what HG, despite the idiocy of their decisions they are still Canon

Actually, HG's own stance says that the Tv series is canon and anything that conflicts with it is not.

Core Continuity: adapted from the original television episodes

Extended Continuity: beyond the original series

The fact there is inconvenient dialogue and visuals in Robotech that contradict non-Tv sources is irrelevant.

For example, HG's timeline claims the 2RW is a year and a half long affair, which is absolutely refuted by dialogue in the series. The time frame from Dana's Story to Outsiders is actually established as "a few weeks" by the Narrator, yet HG's timeline claims a staggering 10 months have passed, an absolutely absurd amount of time for the Earth to have been out of contact with its forces in deep space, especially when they have FTL comm installed on ships as small as the Pegasus-class Assault Shuttle.

Episode #47 Outsiders

THE NARRATOR: Stationed at a lonely outpost in the northern region, Lt. Dana Sterling plays a mournful tune on an ancient piano and reflects upon the events of the past few weeks. She finds the images of battle filling her mind constantly, disturbing her in ways she cannot understand.

A few weeks generally means 5 weeks at the outside, which is a heck of a lot less than 40 weeks. It also makes absolutely zero sense for The Masters, who are running out of Protoculture so fast their ships are being damaged in combat with the UEF, to dither for an obscene amount of time when they know exactly where their target is located.

The simple fact is the people at Harmony Gold don't know the series that well. They have continuously refused to change when shown exactly where they are wrong, all the while claiming adherence to said Tv series.

[jaymz]

And we're back to how YOU or others interpret said dialogue.

But my point is we all do what WE feel is right to play the games we play and despite your opinion, your statements are almost never facts but YOUR interpretation of the material at hand despite any other essays of series quotes you want to post.

Robotech from day one was NEVER crafted with any real plan. Trying to shoehorn things however that may be is still something HG never planned for or was trying to do npr really trying to.do even now.

Only the fans give a crap one way or another so we all do what we feel works best in our opinions and for our purposes.

[glitterboy2098]

Honestly part of the reason for creating a house setting is to try and avoid these kinds of "by who's canon?" arguements. If I'm already running an AU version, I'm not beholden to anyone elses interpretation, and can elect to include elements from comics and other questionable continuity stuff or even dismiss official stuff if it clashes with the setting i want to use.

My own largely just tweaks stuff around the edges of the core storylines though.

[jaymz]

Honestly most of us work with the known core then add and tweak accordingly.

Which is really all that can be done.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

And we're back to how YOU or others interpret said dialogue.

I'm interpreting the dialogue as it is, not as I want it to be. THAT'S the difference.

Robotech from day one was NEVER crafted with any real plan. Trying to shoehorn things however that may be is still something HG never planned for or was trying to do npr really trying to.do even now.

So. What. I'm not the one trying to shoehorn things in, but accepting the Tv series at face value. You don't wanna do that? Fine by me, but don't sit there and claim you're adhering to the canon, cause you're not. The Tv series says one thing. The Novels/Comics/RPGs say something else.

[jaymz]

And neither are you.

Interpretation is still interpretation regardless of how much you want to claim otherwise.

And this thread was supposed to be about th RPG editions not whatever you've decided to, as usual, ramble on about in your typical pineapple word salads.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Then block me. YOU are responsible for what you read, not me.

[Sambot]

Aside from the DoZ and the Invid there are quite few that could be developed from the series:
-Zentreadi offshoots could come in a variety of factions and sizes (Leonard directly in Ep45, and Gloval indirectly in Ep31 indicate these are out there), for legal reasons they likely have to be distinct and unique from anything SDF:M franchise has done. Leonard theorizes the Bioroid Pilots are a strain of micronized Zentreadi that have been scattered across the universe, which could have some basis given Gloval's history summary that the Zentreadi "evolved" into their current form, which IMHO leaves open that other evolutionary paths could also be taken at the giant size and their original micronian size.
-Zentreadi battle fronts that get mentioned with little detail would have to be against someone(s), a few are mentioned by Exdoore concerning Khyron's history (plus the race that nearly destroyed them due to contact, possibly even the world shown being destroyed in the Interrogation of Hunter/Hayes/Dixon by Dolza and others). What state this race(s) are in...
-Space Pirates (which is so generic, you could have countless faction/races and could be linked to others)
-Pigeons mentioned by Leonard in Sentinels OVA, while generally can be seen as intended as hyperbole it doesn't have to
-Shadow Wing and associated Pantheon (Shadows/Shadow-Wing which has been morphed into Haydonites already, so Leytow (sp?) might also be another race, if the Wing/Laytow pantheon gets expanded it could indicate other races)
-Masters Saga also shows either rapid Terran evolutionary changes OR ET-species (i'm hesitant to call them invasive) with the bats (seen in the Mounds) along with a "dog" (Dana's sleeping buddy when running from GMP in Ep38) and "rabbit" (seen when Dana is out with Zor in a field). Sentinels does reuse the Dog as part of the FoL/Invid ecosystem, and IINM McKinney merged the dog and rabbit to create Polly (w/roll as seen in Sentinels). While these aren't Sapien level intelligent, there might be some in their original ecosystem(s)
-Invid themselves might indicate 1-4 other races exist or existed at one time due to the way they "copy" existing creatures to "evolve" (seen on Earth with the Genisis Pit Dinosaurs that where not adopted, but also with the Terran Human form they adopt with Corg/Sera and others.). So, the (1E RPGs) first 4 stages could indicate 1-4 different life forms (depending on how they are seen) they've adopted for widespread use, plus the Regis's humanoid form could point toward a possible giant humanoid separate from Tirolian/Earth (I say possible, because the attributes that point this way can also have explanations that work)
-IIRC aren't there some unique aliens in the Sentinel lineart that appeared in the Sentinels DVD extras on the Elements of RT series that were released with the Legacy DVDs? One was identified as the "Children of Zor", but there might have been another set using a lineup/height-comparison.

A bit more "open" speculation on my part though would be the race(s) the Zentreadi where sized to originally "police", 40ft giants that are supposed to avoid contact with micronian (ie human) scale worlds aren't the best candidates to be used to police them. Which would indicate there are some giant alien races out there, how common they would be isn't clear but given various battlefronts that get mentioned connected with the Zentreadi.

I always figured there were more Zentraedi fleets out there. There was Breetai's original fleet and the fleet he returns to Earth with, Kyron's fleet, Azonia's fleet, Dolza's Grand Fleet, the fleet defending the factory satellite. Why should they be the only ones?
I don't know who the Disciples of Zor are (probably a mix of Tiroleans and Zentraedi but they may not be friends of the REF.
Also, there was a Battle Pod designed to be operated by 3 micronized Zentraedi. Why couldn't there be fleets of micronized Zentraedi? After all, they do have the ability to change size. Why not take advantage of it?
Are those extra Aliens from the Sentinals and other pre-production art available some where other than the DVDs?
There could also be Tiroleans and Zentraedi that were abandoned and went independent. There could also be formerly conquered worlds that gained their independence and seek revenge.

Other races of giants? Hmm...interesting idea. I can see that being possible. I figured the avoid contact with micronized cultures came about because groups of Zentraedi turned as they did in Macross. Again, they had the ability to change size. They must have used it more often at one point.

(snip)
I use the colonies as the source of the "reinforcments from deep space" seen in the southern cross episodes, given carpenter said the expeditionary force can't help. I tend to assume the colonies closest to earth would be the oldest and most developed and would thus have their own militias and would have closer ties to earth, so would be more able to send help.

We never got an exact timeline but we figured Tirol was on the other side of the galaxy too to explain why the Fold Jump too so long, and why it took the Zentraedi so long to find the SDF-1 in the first place.

We did the colony thing too. We had the RDF defending colonies, REF looking for Tirol, and the ASC defending Earth. With some of each mixed in with the others for training and to keep tabs on each other. Most of the functioning Zentraedi ships went with the RDF and REF as either refurbished combat vessels or converted colony ships. We also had some EBSIS personnel along for good will.

I'm not to up date on HG canon "angel class colony ships? Did those come out after Shadow War?

[Sambot]

I have never limited my setting to just things from the Show/Novels/Comics/RPG's because of the errors/differences in how things get interpreted by writers/animators. I take the things I like or sound good to me and mesh them together to fit the narrative I am trying to put forth to my players. As long the setting I put together makes sense to me and them, that is all I worry about.

[ShadowLogan]

I always figured there were more Zentraedi fleets out there. There was Breetai's original fleet and the fleet he returns to Earth with, Kyron's fleet, Azonia's fleet, Dolza's Grand Fleet, the fleet defending the factory satellite. Why should they be the only ones?

I thought they established that the Zentreadi are practically extinct after the defeat of Reno, and Scott in NG reinforces this. Now there could be other Zentreadi fleets out there like Reno protecting other Factory Satellites the UEEF/REF captures that gets mentioned in AotSC.

I don't know who the Disciples of Zor are (probably a mix of Tiroleans and Zentraedi but they may not be friends of the REF.

Within Canon we know the DoZ exist and they aren't on friendly terms with the Masters/Zentreadi (Ep29). What we don't know is who they are beyond a name, which from an RPG perspective leaves the GM with options: they could be renegade Tirolians and/or Zentreadi, they could be another race (natural or genetic engineered), they could be artificial (non-biological), they could be the Sentinels.

Also, there was a Battle Pod designed to be operated by 3 micronized Zentraedi. Why couldn't there be fleets of micronized Zentraedi? After all, they do have the ability to change size. Why not take advantage of it?

Nothing indicates the "Zentreadi" operate at Micronian scale as a matter of course though. Per show dialogue we know:
-Dolza establishes that the Zentreadi did once exist as micronian size with a society (Ep11), this may be fabricated history or distorted history (given the issue of genetics, the Zentreadi likely are based on Tirolians, so that origin could have been distorted)
-Gloval's history summary of the Zentreadi establishes infighting among the giants and evolution occurred resulting in the Zentreadi as we know them (Ep31). That these giants "evolved into the Zentreadi" would allow for other evolutionary off-shoots
-Leonard doesn't say the bioroid pilots are micronized Zentreadi, he says they are a "barbaric strain of", and since you can have multiple strains... Dana later in the episode summaries the meeting as "mutant Zentreadi" (Ep45).

So yes, the Zentreadi do have evolutionary relatives, some/all at micronian scale as Earth has had contact with them (15 years between Gloval and Leonard's statements). Now for real world legal reasons I would suspect that any of these offshoots would not use the same/similar designs as the ones in the show if they were to appear, if HG where to ever develop the idea (fan creations are a bit more flexible). You also have to contend with the issue of Protoculture sourcing.

Are those extra Aliens from the Sentinals and other pre-production art available some where other than the DVDs?

AFAIK no for the extra aliens. The old REF Field Guide from Palladium is mostly lineart applicable for the Sentinels (and found on the DVDs), but I know it doesn't have the unknowns. Robotech Art 3 might be the only other source AFAIK that might have Sentinel missing materials found on the DVDs, but I don't know if it actually has it.

The Elements of Robotechnology DVD series is something I don't know if I would recommend tracking down the entire set (7 Volumes). If you are going to track it down just the Alien one you are inquiring about is on Volume E5, there are 2 pics (3x on each IINM, along with 1x known on each) as part of the Sentinels Pre-Production materials (along with the SDF: Macross Pilot HG did, and some unproduced SDC:SC designs that can be found in the Imai Files). Volume E3 has some additional unused Sentinel designs (alternate Pegasus and Chariot versions, and the Children of Zor race), but most appeared in the 1E RPG Sentinels books, along with the Sentinels OVA (and Macek commentary). There are also volumes with "Code Name Robotech" (basically an extended version of "Gloval's Report" done as a promo/preview to air in some markets), HG's pilot for Mospeada (both GCM and SDF:M pilots HG did are in english), and something for Untold Story (aka RT: the movie, THIS IS NOT THE ENTIRE MOVIE, but IIRC dealt with the material created FOR RT's version). Otherwise, it is mostly production artwork that can be found elsewhere, there are some other interesting clips (international, and other promos, along with some "deleted scenes" to make it meet broadcast standards in the US at the time). I thought at one time they had released the EoR series with one (or more) of the remastered collections (off hand I don't know if it made it into the new blue-ray release).

There could also be Tiroleans and Zentraedi that were abandoned and went independent. There could also be formerly conquered worlds that gained their independence and seek revenge.

Very true.

Other races of giants? Hmm...interesting idea. I can see that being possible. I figured the avoid contact with micronized cultures came about because groups of Zentraedi turned as they did in Macross. Again, they had the ability to change size. They must have used it more often at one point.

Contact with a Micronian World did occur in RT per Exedore in Ep26 that establishes a very similar situation occurred in the past, which is why they do so. While they have the capacity to change size, it is never established why they have the capability or how often it is used (now or in the past).

As for other giants. Yeah, it's the most plausible reason for their giant size IMHO, the old "miner" origins for high gravity worlds (like Fantoma) doesn't actually work (biologically speaking). Intimidation and such might be factors, but that runs into the issue of how to do this without risking contact they are to avoid (granted late addition, but then why keep them around unless there are races that don't fall under this heading).

I'm not to up date on HG canon "angel class colony ships? Did those come out after Shadow War?

No. The Angel-Class Colony Ships where converted into the Neutron-S Missiles per the Art of the Shadow Chronicles Art Book. They aren't "new" per say as the design has always been there in the animation, what is "new" is the backstory of the N-S Missile design.

[Sambot]

I always figured there were more Zentraedi fleets out there. There was Breetai's original fleet and the fleet he returns to Earth with, Kyron's fleet, Azonia's fleet, Dolza's Grand Fleet, the fleet defending the factory satellite. Why should they be the only ones?

I thought they established that the Zentreadi are practically extinct after the defeat of Reno, and Scott in NG reinforces this. Now there could be other Zentreadi fleets out there like Reno protecting other Factory Satellites the UEEF/REF captures that gets mentioned in AotSC.

I have heard that but I don't remember if ever said how the Zentraedi went extinct. I also thought that was a newer thing. I don't remember them being extinct before.

I don't know who the Disciples of Zor are (probably a mix of Tiroleans and Zentraedi but they may not be friends of the REF.

Within Canon we know the DoZ exist and they aren't on friendly terms with the Masters/Zentreadi (Ep29). What we don't know is who they are beyond a name, which from an RPG perspective leaves the GM with options: they could be renegade Tirolians and/or Zentreadi, they could be another race (natural or genetic engineered), they could be artificial (non-biological), they could be the Sentinels.

If the DoZ aren't friendly towards Zentraedi, they could be unfriendly towards the REF do to the presence of Zentraedi among them. I don't think the DoZ would be the Sentinals or they'd of said so. I lean more towards the DoZ being Tirolean and probably Zentraedi. Maybe with a few members of other races who were loyal to Zor.

Also, there was a Battle Pod designed to be operated by 3 micronized Zentraedi. Why couldn't there be fleets of micronized Zentraedi? After all, they do have the ability to change size. Why not take advantage of it?

Nothing indicates the "Zentreadi" operate at Micronian scale as a matter of course though. Per show dialogue we know:
-Dolza establishes that the Zentreadi did once exist as micronian size with a society (Ep11), this may be fabricated history or distorted history (given the issue of genetics, the Zentreadi likely are based on Tirolians, so that origin could have been distorted)
-Gloval's history summary of the Zentreadi establishes infighting among the giants and evolution occurred resulting in the Zentreadi as we know them (Ep31). That these giants "evolved into the Zentreadi" would allow for other evolutionary off-shoots
-Leonard doesn't say the bioroid pilots are micronized Zentreadi, he says they are a "barbaric strain of", and since you can have multiple strains... Dana later in the episode summaries the meeting as "mutant Zentreadi" (Ep45).

So yes, the Zentreadi do have evolutionary relatives, some/all at micronian scale as Earth has had contact with them (15 years between Gloval and Leonard's statements). Now for real world legal reasons I would suspect that any of these offshoots would not use the same/similar designs as the ones in the show if they were to appear, if HG where to ever develop the idea (fan creations are a bit more flexible). You also have to contend with the issue of Protoculture sourcing.

I don't remember some of those quotes but it's been a long time since I watched. I don't think the Zentraedi, those we've seen in the show, get micronized very often but they do know about it. And there is that 3 crew battlepod. Also if the Bioroid Pilots are mostly defenders, the Masters would want troops that could fight where full size Zentraedi couldn't.

I suppose they would have different but similar looking equipment. I have wondered if the battle pods from the Sentinals were based on Micronized Zentraedi mecha.

Are those extra Aliens from the Sentinals and other pre-production art available some where other than the DVDs?

AFAIK no for the extra aliens. The old REF Field Guide from Palladium is mostly lineart applicable for the Sentinels (and found on the DVDs), but I know it doesn't have the unknowns. Robotech Art 3 might be the only other source AFAIK that might have Sentinel missing materials found on the DVDs, but I don't know if it actually has it.

The Elements of Robotechnology DVD series is something I don't know if I would recommend tracking down the entire set (7 Volumes). If you are going to track it down just the Alien one you are inquiring about is on Volume E5, there are 2 pics (3x on each IINM, along with 1x known on each) as part of the Sentinels Pre-Production materials (along with the SDF: Macross Pilot HG did, and some unproduced SDC:SC designs that can be found in the Imai Files). Volume E3 has some additional unused Sentinel designs (alternate Pegasus and Chariot versions, and the Children of Zor race), but most appeared in the 1E RPG Sentinels books, along with the Sentinels OVA (and Macek commentary). There are also volumes with "Code Name Robotech" (basically an extended version of "Gloval's Report" done as a promo/preview to air in some markets), HG's pilot for Mospeada (both GCM and SDF:M pilots HG did are in english), and something for Untold Story (aka RT: the movie, THIS IS NOT THE ENTIRE MOVIE, but IIRC dealt with the material created FOR RT's version). Otherwise, it is mostly production artwork that can be found elsewhere, there are some other interesting clips (international, and other promos, along with some "deleted scenes" to make it meet broadcast standards in the US at the time). I thought at one time they had released the EoR series with one (or more) of the remastered collections (off hand I don't know if it made it into the new blue-ray release).

Thanks. Maybe someone will post them again. I know they've been online before but it was a long time ago.

There could also be Tiroleans and Zentraedi that were abandoned and went independent. There could also be formerly conquered worlds that gained their independence and seek revenge.

Very true.

I liked that Palladium did that with 2E.

Other races of giants? Hmm...interesting idea. I can see that being possible. I figured the avoid contact with micronized cultures came about because groups of Zentraedi turned as they did in Macross. Again, they had the ability to change size. They must have used it more often at one point.

Contact with a Micronian World did occur in RT per Exedore in Ep26 that establishes a very similar situation occurred in the past, which is why they do so. While they have the capacity to change size, it is never established why they have the capability or how often it is used (now or in the past).

The why and how often are big questions.

As for other giants. Yeah, it's the most plausible reason for their giant size IMHO, the old "miner" origins for high gravity worlds (like Fantoma) doesn't actually work (biologically speaking). Intimidation and such might be factors, but that runs into the issue of how to do this without risking contact they are to avoid (granted late addition, but then why keep them around unless there are races that don't fall under this heading).

I suppose not but maybe it's a miracle of genetic engineering? Breetai was bigger and stronger than other Zentraedi. He tore a Valkyrie apart with his bare hands and survived being on space. And Dolza was bigger than him. They were also older and add in the novels where he was a former miner and none of the others were. I think there's a case to be made of multiple types of Zentraedi.

I'm not to up date on HG canon "angel class colony ships? Did those come out after Shadow War?

No. The Angel-Class Colony Ships where converted into the Neutron-S Missiles per the Art of the Shadow Chronicles Art Book. They aren't "new" per say as the design has always been there in the animation, what is "new" is the backstory of the N-S Missile design.

Oh okay. Thanks.

[glitterboy2098]

the whole "hands off micronian planets" thing is an artifact of the original macross setting, a bit of dialog that didn't get changed.

personally i've assumed that Exedore's analysis that it referred to some bit of their history was incorrect, a result of how the masters gave the zents false history as part of their control methods. (this is also where the idea that the zentreadi and masters were around half a million years prior came from. the masters took some real events, such as their using the zentreadi to fight the Disciples of Zor rebellion*, but put incorrect dates to it so that the masters seem to be older and more powerful than they really were.)
the prohibition on holding onto 'micronian' worlds (and the disgust at seeing micronians) was to help prevent them from attacking tirolian colonies.


*which i figure include many of the scientists and politicians which originally oversaw the creation of the (non-giant) proto-zentreadi as a cloned labor force in the time before the rise of the masters to power. thus exedore's claim that the zentreadi fought a war with their creators and destroyed them. the masters took a cloned labor force, figured out how to make them giant warriors, and used said warriors to build their empire

[ShadowLogan]

I have heard that but I don't remember if ever said how the Zentraedi went extinct. I also thought that was a newer thing. I don't remember them being extinct before.

I don't think the show comes out and flat-out states they are extinct, I think it implies it on a few occasions that this is where they are headed, especially Scott's comment in "Sand Storms" about the fate of the Invid in relation to the Zentreadi. That is a strictly show POV, later media like the Novels seem to follow this model and have the Zentreadi on the brink of extinction even in the Sentinels due to their numbers. I think it was only the 1E RPG that did not take this view (I'm not familiar with the old Comics and don't know where they fall) with the "Yune-verse" (post 2000-reset) also taking the view they are on the brink (the 2E RPG might allow for it like the 1E for story purposes so GMs don't feel to constrained by the show).

If the DoZ aren't friendly towards Zentraedi, they could be unfriendly towards the REF do to the presence of Zentraedi among them. I don't think the DoZ would be the Sentinals or they'd of said so. I lean more towards the DoZ being Tirolean and probably Zentraedi. Maybe with a few members of other races who were loyal to Zor.

From a Production Standpoint the DOZ pre-date the Sentinels, however the Sentinels are in a more fleshed out state. There are ways to make the DoZ = Sentinels, though my personal preference would be to not go this route, but I do think it should be recognized as an option until something more official comes out from HG.

I don't think the Zentraedi, those we've seen in the show, get micronized very often but they do know about it. And there is that 3 crew battlepod. Also if the Bioroid Pilots are mostly defenders, the Masters would want troops that could fight where full size Zentraedi couldn't.

I agree they know about micronization, but the Pod you refer to was found on the SDF-1 and not a Zentreadi ship. I know in the Novels they poist the idea of conversion kits being available for the mecha that are used by the Defectors, but those don't appear to be a thing in the actual episode (all the defectors have to operate the Pod like Vermilion did), they also explain the Pod as something that was "produced" by a Protoculture Chip (very rare to). The Hows and Whys of the Pod on the SDF-1 are never explained in the show/canon (I would think stealing the Vermilion escape Pod WOULD attract attention, even if it was still around and not taken apart).

'the whole "hands off micronian planets" thing is an artifact of the original macross setting, a bit of dialog that didn't get changed.

If it was confined to a one-off thing (either one line in an episode or even just one episode) I could agree with you that it's a OSM remnant but given that it isn't (IINM) I would have to say even though it could be an OSM artifact, the fact it gets repeated and such diminishes the idea that it should be treated as such.

While I agree 500,000years has issues in RT*, it might still be explainable if the "year" in question is not an Earth-Year, but some other planet's year. Examples an Earth Year is ~ 4x longer than a Mercury "year" and ~1.6x longer than a Venus "year" (Mars and the outer planets are the reverse). We know Exo-Planets can have very short "years" (even compared to Mercury). That IMHO is one solution to solving the 500k years issue, the years in question are not an Earth Year, but another planet and there was a "translation" error that wasn't caught at the time.

I certainly agree the Zentreadi (and their ancestors) genetics would be based on the Tirolian Human DNA (or equivalent of a Tirolian "Chimpanzee" DNA) , but the show doesn't suggest a "heavy labor" past that was later tacked on. I am not saying they couldn't have one, but the one envisioned in the Sentinels Novels (as giant heavy gravity miners) doesn't work without handwaveium (Novels even acknowledged this and justified it by using Protoculture).

*The issue being that if Earth-Humans (homo Sapien Sapien) are genetically identical to Tirolian/Masters then 500,000 years causes issues as modern humans are not this old (just over 100,000 IINM). To explain it away would mean either one big coincidence of genetic engineering or Earth factors into Tirolian history somehow (lost homeworld or colony). And the show at least suggests the Tirolians have performed genetic engineering on themselves (not just the Zentreadi).

[glitterboy2098]

i generally assume that their "heavy labor" past was as 'micronians'.. basically making them comparable to the Neohumans of the exosquad show, the Daggers of Sequest DSV, or the 'tanks' of Space Above and beyond. gene-modified and cloned tirolians created to be a semi-disposable labor force. but i figure they were the same size as the tirolians, just engineered with stronger physical bodies. the early robotech masters took advantage of those tweaks to create the army of giants.. which i figure they did because a single giant is comparable to a mecha once given body armor and a rifle, but at a much cheaper cost. so they could create a conquering army pretty quickly that way, once they had invid derived sciences to allow it. the development of the battlepods and such came later, when they started needing more force multipliers to keep expanding their empire.

[Sambot]

the whole "hands off micronian planets" thing is an artifact of the original macross setting, a bit of dialog that didn't get changed.

(snip)

Interesting. It sounds possible. I would still think it'd be far enough in the past that the vast majority of living Zentraedi would have no personal knowledge of it.

[Sambot]

I have heard that but I don't remember if ever said how the Zentraedi went extinct. I also thought that was a newer thing. I don't remember them being extinct before.

I don't think the show comes out and flat-out states they are extinct, I think it implies it on a few occasions that this is where they are headed, especially Scott's comment in "Sand Storms" about the fate of the Invid in relation to the Zentreadi. That is a strictly show POV, later media like the Novels seem to follow this model and have the Zentreadi on the brink of extinction even in the Sentinels due to their numbers. I think it was only the 1E RPG that did not take this view (I'm not familiar with the old Comics and don't know where they fall) with the "Yune-verse" (post 2000-reset) also taking the view they are on the brink (the 2E RPG might allow for it like the 1E for story purposes so GMs don't feel to constrained by the show).

I figured Scott was talking about full sized Zentraedi. Otherwise, what happened to them? If they're on the brink of extinction Humans should be too.

If the DoZ aren't friendly towards Zentraedi, they could be unfriendly towards the REF do to the presence of Zentraedi among them. I don't think the DoZ would be the Sentinals or they'd of said so. I lean more towards the DoZ being Tirolean and probably Zentraedi. Maybe with a few members of other races who were loyal to Zor.

From a Production Standpoint the DOZ pre-date the Sentinels, however the Sentinels are in a more fleshed out state. There are ways to make the DoZ = Sentinels, though my personal preference would be to not go this route, but I do think it should be recognized as an option until something more official comes out from HG.

I suppose it's an option but not one I'd agree with because if the DoZ - Sentinels, why would they go to Tyrol for help freeing their planets? The DoZ and Tyrol were enemies.

I don't think the Zentraedi, those we've seen in the show, get micronized very often but they do know about it. And there is that 3 crew battlepod. Also if the Bioroid Pilots are mostly defenders, the Masters would want troops that could fight where full size Zentraedi couldn't.

I agree they know about micronization, but the Pod you refer to was found on the SDF-1 and not a Zentreadi ship. I know in the Novels they poist the idea of conversion kits being available for the mecha that are used by the Defectors, but those don't appear to be a thing in the actual episode (all the defectors have to operate the Pod like Vermilion did), they also explain the Pod as something that was "produced" by a Protoculture Chip (very rare to). The Hows and Whys of the Pod on the SDF-1 are never explained in the show/canon (I would think stealing the Vermilion escape Pod WOULD attract attention, even if it was still around and not taken apart).

The SDF-1 was at least partially designed to be used by Zentraedi though. With the Zentraedi being the Robotech Masters' main military force it'd make sense for Zor to have some onboard to protect the ship. It's kind of surprising no Bioroids were found but they could have all been destroyed or still lost in a forgotten compartment.

Yeah, the examination for the pod being there was a bit lacking. Growing a Battle Pod? If they could be grown, why would they need a factory? The obviously didn't bring a conversion kit with them. Stealing the captured pod is pretty impractical. The best I've got is they were given a map of the ship showing where pods might be, along with instructions on how to convert them. Since the Human's missed the Protoculture Matrix, there could have been areas they hadn't explored yet. Otherwise, I don't know. Still, given the presence of a micronized crew Battle Pod, Zentraedi had to have been micronized often enough in the past to warrant production of such a pod or at least a conversion kit.

[ShadowLogan]

I figured Scott was talking about full sized Zentraedi. Otherwise, what happened to them? If they're on the brink of extinction Humans should be too.

It is entirely possible that Scott was talking about the "main line" (for the story consumers) Zentreadi regardless of size, which wouldn't include the "micronized Zentreadi strain"(s) that Leonard alludes to. The only ML-full Zentreadi alive would by Miryia in the story, so at that point the Zentreadi could be shown to be considered practically extinct since now one else is identified as one.

While the Macek-era Sentinels retcons the Zentreadi to survive (Novels, not sure about Comics) and starting to reproduce among themselves, the Yune-era seems to go with the notion that the Zentreadi aren't reproducing. By Ep85 in the Macek-era, you had multiple Zentreadi couples still alive and having children, but by the same point in the Yune-era, Exedore and Miryia are the only ones known that might still be alive.

I suppose it's an option but not one I'd agree with because if the DoZ - Sentinels, why would they go to Tyrol for help freeing their planets? The DoZ and Tyrol were enemies.

The Sentinels went to Tirol AFTER word had somehow gotten out that the moon had fallen to the Invid (circa 2020-5, the Masters had abandoned it in 2013) and been Liberated by a NEW faction IIRC.

The basic take is that the Sentinels went to Tirol looking for help because of the NEW faction that had librated it. Now if we ignore this, Tirol might still be on their list if they are fighting the Masters (capture a capital and all, a bit old fashioned) and when they arrive to find it already "liberated" from the Masters control...

The SDF-1 was at least partially designed to be used by Zentraedi though. With the Zentraedi being the Robotech Masters' main military force it'd make sense for Zor to have some onboard to protect the ship. It's kind of surprising no Bioroids were found but they could have all been destroyed or still lost in a forgotten compartment.

The SDF-1 appears to be a unique environment in that sense with Tirolians and Giant Zentreadi on the same ship given we don't see the Masters's Cityships (or any other vessel) using Zentreadi. Of course this is due to the nature of the animated production. However in the show proper the ship was recovered with no sign of the crew (alive or dead), with the implication being projections suggested the crew are giants creating the need for the Battloids (and I would point out a Bioroid can operate manual controls, and nothing prevents bioroids from being built at Zentreadi-scale). This is slightly different than in the Novels (and Genesis GN) where they encounter Zentreadi skeletons and some type of armored giant humanoid robot (Novels make them out to be unknown, the Genesis GN has them as Bioroids)

Growing a Battle Pod? If they could be grown, why would they need a factory?

The factory satellite could likely do it faster that a single chip could "grow" a Pod. I don't recall how long it took the Spies pod to "grow", but it wasn't fast by any means where the Factory was capable of building them much faster. Plus, the Chip was rare (I think they described it as one-of-kind). Another way to look at it is like a 3D-Printer vs Factory, at our current technology a 3D-Printer can't compete with a factory in terms of production rate (assuming one machine for either producing the same part).

Since the Human's missed the Protoculture Matrix, there could have been areas they hadn't explored yet. Otherwise, I don't know. Still, given the presence of a micronized crew Battle Pod, Zentraedi had to have been micronized often enough in the past to warrant production of such a pod or at least a conversion kit.

This assumes the converted Zentreadi mecha found on the SDF-1 was intended to be operated by Micronized Zentreadi. Just about any humanoid of roughly human-scale could operate the unit.

I certainly agree there are areas of the ship that could have been missed given they never found the Protoculture Matrix (at least in the show and Novels, IINM the Yune-verse has them finding it before the 15th in the show/novels). It just seems unlikely that is the case 11 years in to have missed something like a mecha storage bay(s), I could understand the Matrix as it could be stored somewhere dangerous but the mecha doesn't have that option really.

[Sambot]

I figured Scott was talking about full sized Zentraedi. Otherwise, what happened to them? If they're on the brink of extinction Humans should be too.

It is entirely possible that Scott was talking about the "main line" (for the story consumers) Zentreadi regardless of size, which wouldn't include the "micronized Zentreadi strain"(s) that Leonard alludes to. The only ML-full Zentreadi alive would by Miryia in the story, so at that point the Zentreadi could be shown to be considered practically extinct since now one else is identified as one.

While the Macek-era Sentinels retcons the Zentreadi to survive (Novels, not sure about Comics) and starting to reproduce among themselves, the Yune-era seems to go with the notion that the Zentreadi aren't reproducing. By Ep85 in the Macek-era, you had multiple Zentreadi couples still alive and having children, but by the same point in the Yune-era, Exedore and Miryia are the only ones known that might still be alive.

I think I'll stick with Macek and the Zentraedi reproducing. Otherwise, where'd they all go? And why would Miryia be the only one to have children?

I suppose it's an option but not one I'd agree with because if the DoZ - Sentinels, why would they go to Tyrol for help freeing their planets? The DoZ and Tyrol were enemies.

The Sentinels went to Tirol AFTER word had somehow gotten out that the moon had fallen to the Invid (circa 2020-5, the Masters had abandoned it in 2013) and been Liberated by a NEW faction IIRC.

The basic take is that the Sentinels went to Tirol looking for help because of the NEW faction that had librated it. Now if we ignore this, Tirol might still be on their list if they are fighting the Masters (capture a capital and all, a bit old fashioned) and when they arrive to find it already "liberated" from the Masters control...

.... Wasn't the REF the new faction? And how would word have gotten out?

The SDF-1 was at least partially designed to be used by Zentraedi though. With the Zentraedi being the Robotech Masters' main military force it'd make sense for Zor to have some onboard to protect the ship. It's kind of surprising no Bioroids were found but they could have all been destroyed or still lost in a forgotten compartment.

The SDF-1 appears to be a unique environment in that sense with Tirolians and Giant Zentreadi on the same ship given we don't see the Masters's Cityships (or any other vessel) using Zentreadi. Of course this is due to the nature of the animated production. However in the show proper the ship was recovered with no sign of the crew (alive or dead), with the implication being projections suggested the crew are giants creating the need for the Battloids (and I would point out a Bioroid can operate manual controls, and nothing prevents bioroids from being built at Zentreadi-scale). This is slightly different than in the Novels (and Genesis GN) where they encounter Zentreadi skeletons and some type of armored giant humanoid robot (Novels make them out to be unknown, the Genesis GN has them as Bioroids)

I don't know if the SDF-1 would have been that unique. Mecha were able to move about inside the Masters Cityships without problem. If they could, why couldn't a full size Zentraedi? Granted, I don't think that's happened in ages but I think the capability exists. It just isn't used any more.

As for the SDF-1, I'd forgotten about the Bioriod in the comic. I suppose it could have been Zentaedi sized. It would be pretty big though. Bigger than a Queadluun-Rau. I think it'd be a waste though if it's just armed with a gun pod. Maybe it was just body armor styled like a Bioroid?

Would the SDF-1 been 100% unique or would it have been based on an existing design? Maybe the Zentaedi started off micronized for Fantoma but were enlarged for mining and construction on other planets? Then turned into warriors? With its onboard factories the SDF-1 could have been based on a mining/factory/resupply ship. All that open space would allow a lot of cargo to be carried. Full size Zentraedi could have been used to move that cargo and defend the ship while human sized personnel handled operating it. And it'd be easier to send a small ship than a huge factory satellite.

Growing a Battle Pod? If they could be grown, why would they need a factory?

The factory satellite could likely do it faster that a single chip could "grow" a Pod. I don't recall how long it took the Spies pod to "grow", but it wasn't fast by any means where the Factory was capable of building them much faster. Plus, the Chip was rare (I think they described it as one-of-kind). Another way to look at it is like a 3D-Printer vs Factory, at our current technology a 3D-Printer can't compete with a factory in terms of production rate (assuming one machine for either producing the same part).

It would have been a couple months maybe? Was the chip just in the novel or in the show? I suppose 3D printing could work but that's a really big printer. Plus it'd need fuel. That chip must be something to do that. Maybe the chip just had the location of small automated repair/production facilities along with plans for the pod? Put the chip in the computer and let it handle the rest?

Since the Human's missed the Protoculture Matrix, there could have been areas they hadn't explored yet. Otherwise, I don't know. Still, given the presence of a micronized crew Battle Pod, Zentraedi had to have been micronized often enough in the past to warrant production of such a pod or at least a conversion kit.

This assumes the converted Zentreadi mecha found on the SDF-1 was intended to be operated by Micronized Zentreadi. Just about any humanoid of roughly human-scale could operate the unit.

I certainly agree there are areas of the ship that could have been missed given they never found the Protoculture Matrix (at least in the show and Novels, IINM the Yune-verse has them finding it before the 15th in the show/novels). It just seems unlikely that is the case 11 years in to have missed something like a mecha storage bay(s), I could understand the Matrix as it could be stored somewhere dangerous but the mecha doesn't have that option really.

I can see it happening. With repairs and remodeling spaces could be blocked off or forgotten about. When Rick and Minmay were trapped they were in a blocked off forgotten area until something fell through the floor above them. The area the spies Pod launched from doesn't seem to be bigger than where they were and they had an airlock.

If they'd found the matrix earlier, why didn't they use it?

[glitterboy2098]

The mars base comic has rick, lisa and breetai all knowing the protoculture factory is still aboard the SDF1, and having decided to leave the ASC in the dark. No indication is made that they know where in the SDf1's ruins it was specifically. More that they know it was aboard (which the zentreadi were very clear about in the show so presumably breetai brought evidence about the ID of the SDaf1 as Zor's ship), but had decded it was safer to bury the whole ship than to dig around in it, or let the ASC do so. The dialog sounded like they wanted to use it as a bargining chip with the masters when the UEEF found them, but didn't want the people running earth to know it was there.

[ShadowLogan]

I think I'll stick with Macek and the Zentraedi reproducing. Otherwise, where'd they all go? And why would Miryia be the only one to have children?

Biologically speaking there are several unknowns here resulting from their genetic engineering:
-Did the GE alter their natural life span? In fact what was their expected life span?
-Did the GE alter their fertility?
-is there allowance for mutations?

Wasn't the REF the new faction? And how would word have gotten out?

Yes the REF was the new faction.

In the Novels (I'm not sure about comics/plans in original show scripts) the Sentinels hear about Tirol from the Invid themselves IIRC because it was around the time of their prisoner mutiny.

It would have been a couple months maybe? Was the chip just in the novel or in the show? I suppose 3D printing could work but that's a really big printer. Plus it'd need fuel. That chip must be something to do that. Maybe the chip just had the location of small automated repair/production facilities along with plans for the pod? Put the chip in the computer and let it handle the rest?

The Chip in question is strictly a Novel invention, it was not in the show. The Novels do have elements like this that are unique to them (Shapings, Thinking Cap, 5year REF Folds being others I can easily point to).

The chip wasn't presented as a location of X, it was presented as doing the work itself after being plugged in.

If they'd found the matrix earlier, why didn't they use it?

Pre-20010sh reset they never found it (though in the Novels IINM Zand and his cabal where aware of it).

Post reset (the Yune-era) they appear to know of it as gb2098 said since it was buried. Why they didn't use it might indicate there was something(s) missing to be able to use the Matrix, likely the proper raw materials.

[glitterboy2098]

Or they literally just didn't want to dig through a wargrave and dismantle megatonnage of unstable radioactive wreckage looking for hardware they didn't know the appearance or size of. while delaying an important effort at diplomacy, and potentially handing a government they didn't fully trust control of what could anount to a superweapon?

Just because they they knew it was still aboard the ruins of the sdf1 does not mean they actually knew *where* on the ship it was. Or how it worked.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Post reset (the Yune-era) they appear to know of it as gb2098 said since it was buried. Why they didn't use it might indicate there was something(s) missing to be able to use the Matrix, likely the proper raw materials.

Of all the stupid and utterly vapid drek Tommy Yune spat out, the idea that the leadership of the REF (which was just a Combatant Command and thus subservient to the UEF, which is subservient to the UEG) somehow failed to disclose the fact they knew the Protoculture Factory was in the Ruins of the SDF-1 means every last one that knew about it were traitors. And the deaths caused by the 2nd Robotech War and the Invid Invasion immediately following the "conclusion" of the 2RW are all the fault of those involved.

[Sambot]

The mars base comic has rick, lisa and breetai all knowing the protoculture factory is still aboard the SDF1, and having decided to leave the ASC in the dark. No indication is made that they know where in the SDf1's ruins it was specifically. More that they know it was aboard (which the zentreadi were very clear about in the show so presumably breetai brought evidence about the ID of the SDaf1 as Zor's ship), but had decded it was safer to bury the whole ship than to dig around in it, or let the ASC do so. The dialog sounded like they wanted to use it as a bargining chip with the masters when the UEEF found them, but didn't want the people running earth to know it was there.

Uh.... I'll stick with they looked but couldn't find it and figured it had been moved before the ship crashed. Otherwise...it's the thing everyone's been fighting over and it's something Earth would need for their own uses. To just bury it so the ASC doesn't get it? That's a pretty dumb idea.

I think I'll stick with Macek and the Zentraedi reproducing. Otherwise, where'd they all go? And why would Miryia be the only one to have children?

Biologically speaking there are several unknowns here resulting from their genetic engineering:
-Did the GE alter their natural life span? In fact what was their expected life span?
-Did the GE alter their fertility?
-is there allowance for mutations?

-Going by the older books, they did have a long life span but some of that could be because of spending time in a space fold. I suppose they could be engineered to live longer. At least the officers. I think regular solders would have a normal human type lifespan. Out side of combat.
-I'm going to with the show and novels with their fertility wasn't altered.
-Probably,

Wasn't the REF the new faction? And how would word have gotten out?

Yes the REF was the new faction.

In the Novels (I'm not sure about comics/plans in original show scripts) the Sentinels hear about Tirol from the Invid themselves IIRC because it was around the time of their prisoner mutiny.

Looked it up in the book. They learned about it from their instruments. I'd guess it picked up Invid transmissions.

It would have been a couple months maybe? Was the chip just in the novel or in the show? I suppose 3D printing could work but that's a really big printer. Plus it'd need fuel. That chip must be something to do that. Maybe the chip just had the location of small automated repair/production facilities along with plans for the pod? Put the chip in the computer and let it handle the rest?

The Chip in question is strictly a Novel invention, it was not in the show. The Novels do have elements like this that are unique to them (Shapings, Thinking Cap, 5year REF Folds being others I can easily point to).

The chip wasn't presented as a location of X, it was presented as doing the work itself after being plugged in.

Some of the elements in the novels make some sense. The thinking cap and maybe shapings. I never had a problem with the 5 year fold. They spent 24 hours in a fold each way from Sol System to Dolza's base. Tirol could be even further away and a misjump could make them think it was instantaneous. The chip, that only makes sense if it's taking control of something. It's not a chia-pet. But if its like a USB with an operating system that controls manufacturing equipment, I think that could work.

If they'd found the matrix earlier, why didn't they use it?

Pre-20010sh reset they never found it (though in the Novels IINM Zand and his cabal where aware of it).

Post reset (the Yune-era) they appear to know of it as gb2098 said since it was buried. Why they didn't use it might indicate there was something(s) missing to be able to use the Matrix, likely the proper raw materials.

That's a pretty dumb idea. Even if they can get it to work, take it with them. At the least they could say, "We've got this thing. We don't want t and we don't want you coming to get it. Take it and bug off."

[ShadowLogan]

-Going by the older books, they did have a long life span but some of that could be because of spending time in a space fold. I suppose they could be engineered to live longer. At least the officers. I think regular solders would have a normal human type lifespan. Out side of combat.
-I'm going to with the show and novels with their fertility wasn't altered.
-Probably,

They don't necessarily need to engineer longer life spans, and could be designed to have shorter life spans actually. Remember they also have the ability to transfer consciousness and memories into a new body, that sort of defeats the need for a longer life span when you can just hop into a new body.

The show and the novels though take the fertility as being pretty rare events which is why I brought up the issue of mutation, it's possible that Zentreadi where not normally fertile, and Miriyia was a fluke (mutation, especially given she bred with a human). The Novels had Seloy being artificially impregnated, and they did establish that other Zentreadi where doing it with humans (at this time I don't think any ZonZ action was stated to have occurred). The Zentreadi that do successfully reproduce might also be be examples of flukes in terms of the overall population pre-RoD.

Looked it up in the book. They learned about it from their instruments. I'd guess it picked up Invid transmissions.

Well the ship was used by the Invid as a prision ship before the prisoners rebelled and formed the Sentinels so I would think the Invid jailers would need to be able to stay in touch.

Some of the elements in the novels make some sense.

I am not taking sides on the issue if they make sense, I only state they exist as novel only constructs. I much prefer to treat RT as a multi-versal property due to differences between media takes on things (including the TV cut of the show from '85 vs newer "Remastered" cut).

[Jefffar]

If the Zentraedi are not fertile, why the gender segregation? Just render the organs non-functional (trivially done with Master's tech) and remove the biological cause for those distracting urges. Yeah the Quandros wouldn't be so enjoyable to look at, but if you're going to the effort of making the Zentraedi infertile, you could eliminate a lot of other useless things in the process. The fact that they didn't finish the process implies that the Masters valued the ability of the Zentraedi to reproduce or thought that they could control it some other way.

TLDR Version: Flesh robots don't need the naughty bits, so if the Masters left 'em, they intended them to be functional.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

If the Zentraedi are not fertile, why the gender segregation?

Actually, its been noted that the segregation doesn't REALLY exist in Robotech and that its even downplayed in SDF Macross. There are men serving aboard Azonia's command ship (the 3 spies are loaded into a canister by a Male Zentraedi wearing heavy body armor). In fact, one of Azonia's officers in Robotech has a male voice. Like a lot of things about Robotech, the Tv series shows one thing, fans (mostly thanks to outside sources like DYRL?, and even Carl Macek who didn't know the show as well as he thought) think its something else.

[jaymz]

If the Zentraedi are not fertile, why the gender segregation? Just render the organs non-functional (trivially done with Master's tech) and remove the biological cause for those distracting urges. Yeah the Quandros wouldn't be so enjoyable to look at, but if you're going to the effort of making the Zentraedi infertile, you could eliminate a lot of other useless things in the process. The fact that they didn't finish the process implies that the Masters valued the ability of the Zentraedi to reproduce or thought that they could control it some other way.

TLDR Version: Flesh robots don't need the naughty bits, so if the Masters left 'em, they intended them to be functional.

And as evidenced by the fact Max and Myria had at least TWO children means they were fertile.

[ShadowLogan]

If the Zentraedi are not fertile, why the gender segregation? Just render the organs non-functional (trivially done with Master's tech) and remove the biological cause for those distracting urges. Yeah the Quandros wouldn't be so enjoyable to look at, but if you're going to the effort of making the Zentraedi infertile, you could eliminate a lot of other useless things in the process. The fact that they didn't finish the process implies that the Masters valued the ability of the Zentraedi to reproduce or thought that they could control it some other way.

I do think the organs are non-functional (mostly, there are bound to be slip ups that get through), well as non-functional as necessary (due to shared functionality).

Something to consider is what pressures existed when the Zentreadi where created that might have resulted in short-cuts. Given the Masters missed things in their "programming" per Gloval's history summary, it's possible they were under pressure to create something fast so instead of re-engineering the reproductive system out (which is tied into other bodily systems) they could just render them sterile (much quicker and easier). They might also only be sterile when they are in full-size giant configuration versus normal human size. This might be biologically necessary, both in terms of physiology but also gestation time if it increases due to the new size. An elephant gestates for 24 months (whales are 13-16), humans 9, and an Elephant (or whale) is much bigger than a human so a giant Zentreadi might be looking at pregnancy lasting years if their physiology can handle it.

They could also have gone with two sexes because that is what they knew, but I also suspect to provide the Zentreadi genetics with some randomization (we don't see a single template, we see multiple templates used which implies the code base is much wider than other clone armies in fiction that could be pointed to). While they could have just cloned an entire female army, a male army might be more problematic to pull off at the Chromosome level (XX=female, XY=male, if all you have are male and you randomize them SOME should come out as XX). Instituting some genetic randomness via combination at regular times would also be away to avoid the "copy-of-copy" trope that comes up with Clones/cloning.

As for why gender segregation. Because like it or not, mixing genders is not always ideal (studies do show that males and females learn better when segregated for example). There might also be other factors to that result in it (bias, "naturally better" for a role, etc).

There is no indication that I know of that the Masters valued the ability of the Zentreadi to reproduce by natural means, in fact the show (Ep46-Star Dust) it is alluded to that it is unknown to do so from their comment "It is obvious this species is not Zentraedi their system of mating and reproduction are unheard of among the Zentraedi" when discussing humans. Given they include "reproduction" approach in the comment as opposed to just the social aspect (selecting and winning a mate), that is a good indication that the Zentreadi don't reproduce by natural means, even if they have the parts for it.

And as evidenced by the fact Max and Myria had at least TWO children means they were fertile.

Three not two (Dana, Mia/unnamed-vision-girl, Dana has a brother that she mentions to Zor Prime in passing that everyone seems to forget about).

But is Miyira an exception or the rule for Zentreadi? Miryia might just be the equivalent of one of the 55% of Female Ogres in Palladium Fantasy/Rifts that can reproduce (RCB1r pg102) and not the 45% of Female Ogres that get all the attention because it means Ogre males need human females to keep the species going (45% doesn't appear in PF2 pg304, they just say "many females").

I do grant the 2E RPG does mention the existence of hybrids, they don't give any idea of how prevalent they are, and I don't recall anything about pure Zentreadi offspring.

[jaymz]

What did you think I meant by "at least two"?

[xunk16]

If the Zentraedi are not fertile, why the gender segregation? Just render the organs non-functional (trivially done with Master's tech) and remove the biological cause for those distracting urges. Yeah the Quandros wouldn't be so enjoyable to look at, but if you're going to the effort of making the Zentraedi infertile, you could eliminate a lot of other useless things in the process. The fact that they didn't finish the process implies that the Masters valued the ability of the Zentraedi to reproduce or thought that they could control it some other way.

TLDR Version: Flesh robots don't need the naughty bits, so if the Masters left 'em, they intended them to be functional.

Rather, Macross and Robotech kept a common theme of "sex changes the world", which is magnified even more in the novels. Sexual dimorphism and war are often presented in universe as the two opposing forces of evolution. With the flower of life favouring the coupling of diverse pairs, as much as it can, through the shapings. The problem with its travels being that it augment sentience, which in turns lets the target species become protoculture addicts, and then finally develop the humanoid shaped technology that serves as a vessel for the flower; once it has reached an evolution plateau and must prefer war and expansionism.
Of these war though, the solution is always presented to be a male / female pair. Max & Myria, Bowie and Musica, and finally Scott / Marlene & Lance / Sera. This is made possible through the shapings making evolution converge toward humankind throughout the universe.

It wasn't as explicit in the shows, but the novels thereby have the subtext that mankind and zentraedi might not be offshoot from one another more than parallel evolutions of the same. Same for the Master before they created their Tripartite society to cater to the aspect of war rather than generations. Even the Invid considered the human shape to be higher in the evolution order than their more fluid selves. The Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles pushes this further with the Haydonite being suggested as former humanoids that have shed their ancient forms to free themselves from the influence of protoculture. And where dimorphism and evolution are stagnant, such as with the Sentinel races, the flower mutates and become less potent; suggesting that even an artificial cut from the cycle of life, such as for the Praxians, is diminishing the whole in the long run.

We know the Zentraedi were partially made from protoculture in order to permit their size changes and control. It was mentioned at least once as a mean to accelerate their growth and production rate in artificial wombs.
My point being : maybe the Masters couldn't eradicate the gender dimorphism even if they wanted. Protoculture favouring compatibility with species still able to develop naturally, their ability to reproduce might have been the single thing they couldn't alter. This could also account for the absence of triumvirate separating the slaves from the master, since the different bio-modifications might have asked for a greater compatibility with the protoculture to keep the micronization process functional and the sentience minimal.

Which brings to mind the possibility that the Master's society might have been in part constructed to avoid some of the influences of protoculture, such as Zand had foreseen. Built to be able to keep a purity of mind and pursue long time goals outside of the violent influence of the flower once they tried to stabilize their own shapes. In the end though, their fast expanding empire and war with the invids would prove these changes ineffective.

[Sambot]

-Going by the older books, they did have a long life span but some of that could be because of spending time in a space fold. I suppose they could be engineered to live longer. At least the officers. I think regular solders would have a normal human type lifespan. Out side of combat.
-I'm going to with the show and novels with their fertility wasn't altered.
-Probably,

They don't necessarily need to engineer longer life spans, and could be designed to have shorter life spans actually. Remember they also have the ability to transfer consciousness and memories into a new body, that sort of defeats the need for a longer life span when you can just hop into a new body.

True but I don't think the RM's used that technology for the Zentraedi. Maybe for exceptional ones but not normally. I always got the feeling that the Masters considered the Zentraedi as cannon fodder.

The show and the novels though take the fertility as being pretty rare events which is why I brought up the issue of mutation, it's possible that Zentreadi where not normally fertile, and Miriyia was a fluke (mutation, especially given she bred with a human). The Novels had Seloy being artificially impregnated, and they did establish that other Zentreadi where doing it with humans (at this time I don't think any ZonZ action was stated to have occurred). The Zentreadi that do successfully reproduce might also be be examples of flukes in terms of the overall population pre-RoD.

I don't remember a Seloy or artificial impregnation. Which novel was that in? According to the novels, Breetai had a son with Kazianna and three more pregnancies among the Zentraedi were announced on the way back to Tirol from Optera. Kazianna was also full size when she gave birth. I think it didn't happen sooner because of all the cultural programming. Although after so many years with Humans, it probably should have happened a lot sooner.

Looked it up in the book. They learned about it from their instruments. I'd guess it picked up Invid transmissions.

Well the ship was used by the Invid as a prision ship before the prisoners rebelled and formed the Sentinels so I would think the Invid jailers would need to be able to stay in touch.

Yep. Just didn't remember it.

Some of the elements in the novels make some sense.

I am not taking sides on the issue if they make sense, I only state they exist as novel only constructs. I much prefer to treat RT as a multi-versal property due to differences between media takes on things (including the TV cut of the show from '85 vs newer "Remastered" cut).

RT being a multiverse is probably the best way to go.

If the Zentraedi are not fertile, why the gender segregation? Just render the organs non-functional (trivially done with Master's tech) and remove the biological cause for those distracting urges. Yeah the Quandros wouldn't be so enjoyable to look at, but if you're going to the effort of making the Zentraedi infertile, you could eliminate a lot of other useless things in the process. The fact that they didn't finish the process implies that the Masters valued the ability of the Zentraedi to reproduce or thought that they could control it some other way.

TLDR Version: Flesh robots don't need the naughty bits, so if the Masters left 'em, they intended them to be functional.

I don't know if they intended the Zentraedi to use them. Maybe once upon a time before they were converted into warriors. Still, the Masters could have made them with no sexual characteristics at all.

If the Zentraedi are not fertile, why the gender segregation?

Actually, its been noted that the segregation doesn't REALLY exist in Robotech and that its even downplayed in SDF Macross. There are men serving aboard Azonia's command ship (the 3 spies are loaded into a canister by a Male Zentraedi wearing heavy body armor). In fact, one of Azonia's officers in Robotech has a male voice. Like a lot of things about Robotech, the Tv series shows one thing, fans (mostly thanks to outside sources like DYRL?, and even Carl Macek who didn't know the show as well as he thought) think its something else.

Were the males on Azonia's command ship or just in another ship in her fleet? I do remember that the spies had heard of Miriya but outside of her delivering them, I can't recall male and female Zentaedi actually being physically together until Kyron and Azonia were after the war.

I do think the organs are non-functional (mostly, there are bound to be slip ups that get through), well as non-functional as necessary (due to shared functionality).

(snip)

Three not two (Dana, Mia/unnamed-vision-girl, Dana has a brother that she mentions to Zor Prime in passing that everyone seems to forget about).

(snip)

Well, the novels say full size Zentaedi were getting pregnant and giving birth but like you said, Multiverse!

I thought she considered Bowie a brother. Where did this other sibling come from?

Rather, Macross and Robotech kept a common theme of "sex changes the world", which is magnified even more in the novels. Sexual dimorphism and war are often presented in universe as the two opposing forces of evolution. With the flower of life favouring the coupling of diverse pairs, as much as it can, through the shapings. The problem with its travels being that it augment sentience, which in turns lets the target species become protoculture addicts, and then finally develop the humanoid shaped technology that serves as a vessel for the flower; once it has reached an evolution plateau and must prefer war and expansionism.
Of these war though, the solution is always presented to be a male / female pair. Max & Myria, Bowie and Musica, and finally Scott / Marlene & Lance / Sera. This is made possible through the shapings making evolution converge toward humankind throughout the universe.

It wasn't as explicit in the shows, but the novels thereby have the subtext that mankind and zentraedi might not be offshoot from one another more than parallel evolutions of the same. Same for the Master before they created their Tripartite society to cater to the aspect of war rather than generations. Even the Invid considered the human shape to be higher in the evolution order than their more fluid selves. The Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles pushes this further with the Haydonite being suggested as former humanoids that have shed their ancient forms to free themselves from the influence of protoculture. And where dimorphism and evolution are stagnant, such as with the Sentinel races, the flower mutates and become less potent; suggesting that even an artificial cut from the cycle of life, such as for the Praxians, is diminishing the whole in the long run.

We know the Zentraedi were partially made from protoculture in order to permit their size changes and control. It was mentioned at least once as a mean to accelerate their growth and production rate in artificial wombs.
My point being : maybe the Masters couldn't eradicate the gender dimorphism even if they wanted. Protoculture favouring compatibility with species still able to develop naturally, their ability to reproduce might have been the single thing they couldn't alter. This could also account for the absence of triumvirate separating the slaves from the master, since the different bio-modifications might have asked for a greater compatibility with the protoculture to keep the micronization process functional and the sentience minimal.

Which brings to mind the possibility that the Master's society might have been in part constructed to avoid some of the influences of protoculture, such as Zand had foreseen. Built to be able to keep a purity of mind and pursue long time goals outside of the violent influence of the flower once they tried to stabilize their own shapes. In the end though, their fast expanding empire and war with the invids would prove these changes ineffective.

I don't remember any of that in the novels, or artificial wombs. Although artificial wombs do make sense. Rapid grow them and they don't go through puberty and get curious. You also don't have to rely on the females getting pregnant when they could be fighting. I do remember that the Invid were more fluid. They were also happy that way until their planet was defoliated.

[Zer0 Kay]

Doesn't change my argument or the stupidity of the term any.

You did ask what a TTRGP is did you not?

Weather it it stupid to add the extra letters I don't know. What I do know is that there are various genres, would you consider it stupid to add in terms like "Sci-fi" or "horror" or "Fantasy" to the term?

Yes I did but I meant figuratively. And expecting either of the answers, "an RPG played on table tops," or "the original Role Playing games." To which I'd go off on a rant. TT isn't a genre it is a description. Sci-fi is a genre, horror is a genre and notice how putting those before RPG isn't redefining what RPG is but saying what kind of RPG it is. I'd even have respected CRPG for Classic RPG but this idea of table top or even using pen/pencil and paper is pretentious, assuming that we play RPGs at a table or with pen and paper... I haven't played an RPG at a table since I got my own living room as we usually don't use minis and more recently we've been using tablets or have been doing it online so classic is far more accurate than TT.

[ShadowLogan]

True but I don't think the RM's used that technology for the Zentraedi. Maybe for exceptional ones but not normally. I always got the feeling that the Masters considered the Zentraedi as cannon fodder.

The Zentreadi did use the technology any time they used the Protoculture Sizing Chamber. The Sizing Chamber (in the show) does not "shrink" or "grow" the subject's physical size, what it does is grow a clone body at the desired size and transfers the memories and consciousness of the subject, we can be pretty sure of this due to the fact there are two sizes being present at the same time. It would also make sense that if you can transfer memories and such, you could copy them so that even a "new" clone is ready to go once they step out of their "test tube".

I do agree the Masters saw the Zentreadi as cannon fodder.

I don't remember a Seloy or artificial impregnation. Which novel was that in? According to the novels, Breetai had a son with Kazianna and three more pregnancies among the Zentraedi were announced on the way back to Tirol from Optera. Kazianna was also full size when she gave birth. I think it didn't happen sooner because of all the cultural programming. Although after so many years with Humans, it probably should have happened a lot sooner.

Seloy Depra occurred in Book 19 "Zentreadi Rebellion". The father was Leonard, the process was done in secret, and even the child's existence and true status was known only to a few (unlike the "celebrity" Dana). Book 19 also establishes and implies Zentreadi Females did a lot of mating with human males (which makes Miriya getting pregnant a fluke). IIRC there are some other bits about sexuality and such in the book (really, I haven't read it in I want to say over 20years now), though IIRC #5 "Force of Arms" mentions kissing have different results with Zentreadi Females than Males.

I do remember the trip back having Zentreadi reproduction happening in Sentinels #5, and they were forever locked at giant size by that point. While McKinney didn't address the potential "real science" complications of giants and babies, he did address it with concern to them being heavy gravity world miners in one of the "side bits" at the start of each Chapter IIRC, and it was hand-waved away as PC so that might also be how they would address other biological complication/issues.

I thought she considered Bowie a brother. Where did this other sibling come from?

This gets into the Novel vs Show. The comment in the TV show (Ep50 "Triumvirate' @ approx. the 10-11minute mark) would not fit Bowie that Dana made in response to Zor Prime's question.
(Generated using Youtube's auto-CC system)
DS: I always start thinking about my hometown when I come up here and people I left behind
ZP: oh was one of them a boyfriend
DS: no dont be silly just a younger brother

At least for the TV series the dialogue can't be a reference to Bowie since it implies her hometown is not Monument City and Bowie couldn't be considered "left behind" in the context of a hometown. The Novels (#8 "Metal Fire" Chapter 17, 1995 Omni-Bus Printing) did change the dialogue a bit in the scene by dropping reference to the brother by going "No, not really..." (hometown was also changed to a more vague status). Now later printings of the novels might have changed bits again (I know they did with the NG Omni-bus from circa 2007, I don't know if anything was changed in other Omni-bus editions from that time, though I am pretty sure the 1994-5 ones are straight with the 1987-8 printings as far as I could tell).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Were the males on Azonia's command ship or just in another ship in her fleet? I do remember that the spies had heard of Miriya but outside of her delivering them, I can't recall male and female Zentaedi actually being physically together until Kyron and Azonia were after the war.

Nope, they served on the same ship. She is informed by a male-voiced officer of Khyron's disobeying her orders in episode #16 Battle Cry. Miriya's loadmaster was also male in episode #12 The Big Escape as well. I was wrong about the male in the heavy armor being on Azonia's command ship, though. He and the 3 spies were on a Tou Redir in the same fleet (painted purple).

But its entirely probable that males made up the rank and file grunts on the ships while the females were the elites. They may have (mostly) served on separate decks.

[Sambot]

True but I don't think the RM's used that technology for the Zentraedi. Maybe for exceptional ones but not normally. I always got the feeling that the Masters considered the Zentraedi as cannon fodder.

The Zentreadi did use the technology any time they used the Protoculture Sizing Chamber. The Sizing Chamber (in the show) does not "shrink" or "grow" the subject's physical size, what it does is grow a clone body at the desired size and transfers the memories and consciousness of the subject, we can be pretty sure of this due to the fact there are two sizes being present at the same time. It would also make sense that if you can transfer memories and such, you could copy them so that even a "new" clone is ready to go once they step out of their "test tube".

I do agree the Masters saw the Zentreadi as cannon fodder.

I think the animation shows them shrinking. The larger spies disappear before Rick and Lisa run away in episode 12. In episode 19 the smaller chamber is empty when Miriya is being micronized. It did and still does give me the impression that E12 was just finishing while E19 was just starting. Plus if it did just grow a new body, why did Breetai have to resort to cybernetics?

I suppose it could be used to make a clone, providing they had the body. They do have the recovery pod but I didn't get the impression that the Master's cared enough to do that. Plus there's usually not a lot left after the Battle Pods blow up.

I don't remember a Seloy or artificial impregnation. Which novel was that in? According to the novels, Breetai had a son with Kazianna and three more pregnancies among the Zentraedi were announced on the way back to Tirol from Optera. Kazianna was also full size when she gave birth. I think it didn't happen sooner because of all the cultural programming. Although after so many years with Humans, it probably should have happened a lot sooner.

Seloy Depra occurred in Book 19 "Zentreadi Rebellion". The father was Leonard, the process was done in secret, and even the child's existence and true status was known only to a few (unlike the "celebrity" Dana). Book 19 also establishes and implies Zentreadi Females did a lot of mating with human males (which makes Miriya getting pregnant a fluke). IIRC there are some other bits about sexuality and such in the book (really, I haven't read it in I want to say over 20years now), though IIRC #5 "Force of Arms" mentions kissing have different results with Zentreadi Females than Males.

I do remember the trip back having Zentreadi reproduction happening in Sentinels #5, and they were forever locked at giant size by that point. While McKinney didn't address the potential "real science" complications of giants and babies, he did address it with concern to them being heavy gravity world miners in one of the "side bits" at the start of each Chapter IIRC, and it was hand-waved away as PC so that might also be how they would address other biological complication/issues.

Oh okay. I do remember that Leonard had a child with a Zentraedi but I didn't remember her name. I do remember it was secret though but artificial impregnation would be harder to keep quiet as it involves more people. It's been ages since I read that book too but I didn't get the impression that Miriya's pregnancy was a fluke. It could just mean that those involved didn't want to advertise it or took precautions. I wouldn't blame them for either. It could also mean that no one else paid attention. Max and Miriya were celebrities. Her getting pregnant would be noticed. A random crewmember not so much. How would people tell anyway? Zentraedi and Humans share the same DNA. It would take studying their DNA to really tell. As for how Male and Female Zentraedi react to kissing, that could just be biology.

I don't recall any concerns about heavy gravity. Although, I suppose everyone would be concerned how it would effect her pregnancy and the baby after. I think that's natural considering it's new for all of them. I think they'd be overly cautious. Still, women have been giving birth long before science existed and if full size Zentraedi were designed for a heavy gravity environment, I think they'd be okay.

I thought she considered Bowie a brother. Where did this other sibling come from?

This gets into the Novel vs Show. The comment in the TV show (Ep50 "Triumvirate' @ approx. the 10-11minute mark) would not fit Bowie that Dana made in response to Zor Prime's question.
(Generated using Youtube's auto-CC system)
DS: I always start thinking about my hometown when I come up here and people I left behind
ZP: oh was one of them a boyfriend
DS: no dont be silly just a younger brother

At least for the TV series the dialogue can't be a reference to Bowie since it implies her hometown is not Monument City and Bowie couldn't be considered "left behind" in the context of a hometown. The Novels (#8 "Metal Fire" Chapter 17, 1995 Omni-Bus Printing) did change the dialogue a bit in the scene by dropping reference to the brother by going "No, not really..." (hometown was also changed to a more vague status). Now later printings of the novels might have changed bits again (I know they did with the NG Omni-bus from circa 2007, I don't know if anything was changed in other Omni-bus editions from that time, though I am pretty sure the 1994-5 ones are straight with the 1987-8 printings as far as I could tell).

Thanks. I don't remember that. It does rule out Bowie but this unknown brother couldn't be a biological brother. She didn't have one before or he'd of been mentioned and even seen before then. I don't remember if Emerson had kids or not. If he did, or was raising someone else's kid too, that could be who Dana was referring too.

Were the males on Azonia's command ship or just in another ship in her fleet? I do remember that the spies had heard of Miriya but outside of her delivering them, I can't recall male and female Zentaedi actually being physically together until Kyron and Azonia were after the war.

Nope, they served on the same ship. She is informed by a male-voiced officer of Khyron's disobeying her orders in episode #16 Battle Cry. Miriya's loadmaster was also male in episode #12 The Big Escape as well. I was wrong about the male in the heavy armor being on Azonia's command ship, though. He and the 3 spies were on a Tou Redir in the same fleet (painted purple).

But its entirely probable that males made up the rank and file grunts on the ships while the females were the elites. They may have (mostly) served on separate decks.

They do have male voices but that could just be a dubbing error. They sound female in Macross. Plus, some women do have deep voices, and more masculine figures. They also have different uniforms. I suppose they could have males as grunts but the one talking to Azonia would appear to be bridge crew so she, or he, isn't a grunt. Keeping the sexes separated would be a problem though. You'd be sectioning the ship into male, female, and both areas which could cause problems in an emergency. It wouldn't do anything to stop fraternization in common areas.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

They do have male voices but that could just be a dubbing error.

No such thing. Plus, again, its multiple characters across multiple episodes.

They sound female in Macross.

Which is irrelevant. Robotech is not simply "dubbed Macross" (or "dubbed Southern Cross" or "dubbed MOSPEADA").

You'd be sectioning the ship into male, female, and both areas which could cause problems in an emergency. It wouldn't do anything to stop fraternization in common areas.

There doesn't seem to be any opposition fraternization, necessarily. The full-size Zentraedi just seem to not be interested in the opposite sex.

[ShadowLogan]

What did you think I meant by "at least two"

Typo or a bad auto-correct for the actual number. The listing was for people who may not recognize #3.

I'd even have respected CRPG for Classic RPG but this idea of table top or even using pen/pencil and paper is pretentious, assuming that we play RPGs at a table or with pen and paper...

PnP and TT are more accurate than "classic" though. "Classic" IMHO conjures up childhood pretending to be X-character, possibly with certain types of toys (and the toy industry does have a category it considers "role play"), basically LARP before you'd think of it as LARP. That the PnP and TT are now digitally virtualized to some extent isn't in question, but even with that digital virtualization you can still play it the traditional expected way and it might also be a bit pretentious to assume everyone (or even the majority) has moved to the digital virtualization approach as you can still buy real minis (which you don't actually have to use) and do printouts and forgo the entire digital aspect.

think the animation shows them shrinking. The larger spies disappear before Rick and Lisa run away in episode 12. In episode 19 the smaller chamber is empty when Miriya is being micronized. It did and still does give me the impression that E12 was just finishing while E19 was just starting. Plus if it did just grow a new body, why did Breetai have to resort to cybernetics?

I don't think the animation shows them shrinking (slow motion dissolve/forming is what I recall), it certainly shows them at different stages in the process between bodies, but they do appear to be in both sizes at the same time. Plus you have the process being called "re-cloning" by Dana when she talks to Bowie about her parents meeting.

As for why Breetai still wears the headpiece, that is a good question. One that could mean the reason is genetic in origin (that is left in place for some reason) and not the result of injury (as in the Novels/GN).

[quote='Sambot"]I suppose it could be used to make a clone, providing they had the body. They do have the recovery pod but I didn't get the impression that the Master's cared enough to do that. Plus there's usually not a lot left after the Battle Pods blow up.
[/quote]
Why do they need the body? They could store the memories off board and re-integrate them with a new body at any time. IINM the Masters do this with Zor Prime.

but I didn't get the impression that Miriya's pregnancy was a fluke.

It is a fluke in the sense that it is the only one(s) we know of in the Novels or canon for the longest time. And in the Novel-verse (in #19) it wasn't shy about giving the impression that a lot of the required "activity" was going on between humans and zentreadi, and yet there was still only 1-case for the longest time (Aurora was over 15years later, with the pure Zentreadi following not much later). I'd put the Seloy/Leonard as separate because of the nature of the conception compared to the others. If there were other hybrids it should be known about, but in the Novel-verse Dana is constantly portrayed as the only one on Earth.

I don't recall any concerns about heavy gravity. Although, I suppose everyone would be concerned how it would effect her pregnancy and the baby after. I think that's natural considering it's new for all of them. I think they'd be overly cautious. Still, women have been giving birth long before science existed and if full size Zentraedi were designed for a heavy gravity environment, I think they'd be okay.

Heavy Gravity was concerning their status as miners only and was IIRC presented in those side bits at the start of the chapters (like from "Rands Notes on the Run, or "the journals of (X)", etc). The issue with the giant pregnancy and biology is MINE based on possible real-world factors, from a story perspective they probably would hand-wave them away like the gravity issue.

This is the equivalent of the show going if you have NaCl (table salt) and mix it with CH4 (Methane), you can produce H20 (Water) and someone with an understanding of the necessary chemistry going in the real world that wouldn't work.

Thanks. I don't remember that. It does rule out Bowie but this unknown brother couldn't be a biological brother. She didn't have one before or he'd of been mentioned and even seen before then.

As I said this gets into that Novel vs Show thing. In the Novels it really isn't an issue because said dialogue doesn't exist.

From a show perspective is where it pops up. Dana makes the statement in 2029, the last time we saw Dana in the show was in 2013, plenty of time for M&M to have another kid in that continuity. Now the kid doesn't appear in the Sentinels OVA, but again that's IIRC 2022 officially, and he could be too young for the ceremony (and wasn't mentioned) or be born afterward but before the other daughter. Given Dana was to be left behind for the Sentinels arc, it would imply they would also have left any other younger children behind if they had them, I would think.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Given Dana was to be left behind for the Sentinels arc, it would imply they would also have left any other younger children behind if they had them, I would think.

Thing is that The Sentinels was never completed and nothing in Robotech says Dana's hometown wasn't a colony somewhere (which could have included any of the 3 Robotech Factories the UEF had access to before the 2RW). Given the presence of FTL-capable ships and FTL-comm on Earth ships during the 2RW, there is literally no reason to think there wasn't regular rotation between the Earth and its forces out in deep space. Otherwise troops would basically be signing up for a 1-way ticket to the unknown, not something a lot of personnel would be keen on unless they literally had NO ONE at home to miss them. Mail from home, heck FTL messages from home, would be a welcomed thing for troops serving out at the ass end of space.

Given the timeframe for Dana's Story to Outsiders in the Tv series is "a few weeks" (meaning 5 weeks maximum), its not unreasonable to think the main lag for getting to/from Earth is the time in spacefold. The further away something is, the more time it takes. The time Rick, Lisa, Max and Ben spent in fold in episode #11 First Contact is AT LEAST 10 days (not 10 days maximum) from Earth to Dolza's Base, that's not all that strange that Carpenter's ship spent several weeks in transit after being detailed by Space Station Liberty to find out why they got a "Mayday" from Earth that mentioned a hostile alien fleet.

[Sambot]

They do have male voices but that could just be a dubbing error.

No such thing. Plus, again, its multiple characters across multiple episodes.

Do we know that for sure? It's two characters in two episodes. Other than the voice, what makes them male?

They sound female in Macross.

Which is irrelevant. Robotech is not simply "dubbed Macross" (or "dubbed Southern Cross" or "dubbed MOSPEADA").

It shows it could be a dubbing error.

You'd be sectioning the ship into male, female, and both areas which could cause problems in an emergency. It wouldn't do anything to stop fraternization in common areas.

There doesn't seem to be any opposition fraternization, necessarily. The full-size Zentraedi just seem to not be interested in the opposite sex.

Providing they are male, which I'm not convinced they are. And I would think that there would be some opposition to fraternization just to avoid pregnancies. It's something I would think would continue on human ships. Not to the same degree but male and female quarters would be separated.

think the animation shows them shrinking. The larger spies disappear before Rick and Lisa run away in episode 12. In episode 19 the smaller chamber is empty when Miriya is being micronized. It did and still does give me the impression that E12 was just finishing while E19 was just starting. Plus if it did just grow a new body, why did Breetai have to resort to cybernetics?

I don't think the animation shows them shrinking (slow motion dissolve/forming is what I recall), it certainly shows them at different stages in the process between bodies, but they do appear to be in both sizes at the same time. Plus you have the process being called "re-cloning" by Dana when she talks to Bowie about her parents meeting.

As for why Breetai still wears the headpiece, that is a good question. One that could mean the reason is genetic in origin (that is left in place for some reason) and not the result of injury (as in the Novels/GN).

Dissolve/forming/shrinking. whatever. A person changes sizes in it. Two bodies only appear at the same time in the middle of the process. There's only one body at the start and end of the process. If it were just copying there would still be a body in the chamber when done but there isn't. It's empty. No paper left on the copier glass. Maybe the chamber could work like a printer but if it worked like that, why weren't they printing more personnel all the time?

Maybe...or maybe they didn't have access to Breetai's original data. OR maybe the chambers are just sizing chambers, not copiers.

[quote='Sambot"]I suppose it could be used to make a clone, providing they had the body. They do have the recovery pod but I didn't get the impression that the Master's cared enough to do that. Plus there's usually not a lot left after the Battle Pods blow up.

Why do they need the body? They could store the memories off board and re-integrate them with a new body at any time. IINM the Masters do this with Zor Prime.[/quote]

You'd have to copy the person's memories in order to store them. They copies would also only be good as of that point. Anything that came after would be lost. To get the most up to date memories and experiences they'd at least need the brain. And didn't the Masters order Dolza to bring Zor's body to them? Why would they do that if they didn't need it? And why would they do that for Zentraedi?

but I didn't get the impression that Miriya's pregnancy was a fluke.

It is a fluke in the sense that it is the only one(s) we know of in the Novels or canon for the longest time. And in the Novel-verse (in #19) it wasn't shy about giving the impression that a lot of the required "activity" was going on between humans and zentreadi, and yet there was still only 1-case for the longest time (Aurora was over 15years later, with the pure Zentreadi following not much later). I'd put the Seloy/Leonard as separate because of the nature of the conception compared to the others. If there were other hybrids it should be known about, but in the Novel-verse Dana is constantly portrayed as the only one on Earth.

That Miriya's pregnancy and Dana's birth are the only ones talked about doesn't prove that there weren't more. Just that they were they only only ones talked about. Again, Miriya was a celebrity. Her getting pregnant is going to be noticed. Even if they hadn't used Dana as a weapon, she'd be noticed as the first hybrid. A nameless crewmember getting pregnant isn't. Pregnancies only get mentioned when it's part of the plot. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We don't know the names of children born on the SDF-1 do we? That there weren't all Zentaedi babies born before the end of novel #17 probably has more to do with the Masters prohibition against that lack of ability. Possibly a good dose of fear among the female Zentraedi too. By the end of novel 17 they've had enough exposure that it's not as scary. Plus not everyone wants that kind of attention, or to have their child grow up with it.

I don't recall any concerns about heavy gravity. Although, I suppose everyone would be concerned how it would effect her pregnancy and the baby after. I think that's natural considering it's new for all of them. I think they'd be overly cautious. Still, women have been giving birth long before science existed and if full size Zentraedi were designed for a heavy gravity environment, I think they'd be okay.

Heavy Gravity was concerning their status as miners only and was IIRC presented in those side bits at the start of the chapters (like from "Rands Notes on the Run, or "the journals of (X)", etc). The issue with the giant pregnancy and biology is MINE based on possible real-world factors, from a story perspective they probably would hand-wave them away like the gravity issue.

This is the equivalent of the show going if you have NaCl (table salt) and mix it with CH4 (Methane), you can produce H20 (Water) and someone with an understanding of the necessary chemistry going in the real world that wouldn't work.

Probably. Maybe in that universe heavy gravity isn't as bad for giant humanoids?

Thanks. I don't remember that. It does rule out Bowie but this unknown brother couldn't be a biological brother. She didn't have one before or he'd of been mentioned and even seen before then.

As I said this gets into that Novel vs Show thing. In the Novels it really isn't an issue because said dialogue doesn't exist.

From a show perspective is where it pops up. Dana makes the statement in 2029, the last time we saw Dana in the show was in 2013, plenty of time for M&M to have another kid in that continuity. Now the kid doesn't appear in the Sentinels OVA, but again that's IIRC 2022 officially, and he could be too young for the ceremony (and wasn't mentioned) or be born afterward but before the other daughter. Given Dana was to be left behind for the Sentinels arc, it would imply they would also have left any other younger children behind if they had them, I would think.

I didn't remember it either way. Still, why wasn't he mentioned sooner? Why is it just Dana left behind? Why not Dana and ____ or children? Miriya having children before Aurora is out since there's no time for her to be pregnant and give birth in the Sentinels before being pregnant with Aurora on Garuda. That would have to put the boy being born before 2022 when the SDF-3 left. He would have had to be very young not to attend the wedding. Since he's never mentioned, before or after, I'm inclined to believe he's another foster brother.

Given Dana was to be left behind for the Sentinels arc, it would imply they would also have left any other younger children behind if they had them, I would think.

Thing is that The Sentinels was never completed and nothing in Robotech says Dana's hometown wasn't a colony somewhere (which could have included any of the 3 Robotech Factories the UEF had access to before the 2RW). Given the presence of FTL-capable ships and FTL-comm on Earth ships during the 2RW, there is literally no reason to think there wasn't regular rotation between the Earth and its forces out in deep space. Otherwise troops would basically be signing up for a 1-way ticket to the unknown, not something a lot of personnel would be keen on unless they literally had NO ONE at home to miss them. Mail from home, heck FTL messages from home, would be a welcomed thing for troops serving out at the ass end of space.

Given the timeframe for Dana's Story to Outsiders in the Tv series is "a few weeks" (meaning 5 weeks maximum), its not unreasonable to think the main lag for getting to/from Earth is the time in spacefold. The further away something is, the more time it takes. The time Rick, Lisa, Max and Ben spent in fold in episode #11 First Contact is AT LEAST 10 days (not 10 days maximum) from Earth to Dolza's Base, that's not all that strange that Carpenter's ship spent several weeks in transit after being detailed by Space Station Liberty to find out why they got a "Mayday" from Earth that mentioned a hostile alien fleet.

Three factories? I know they got one in Viva Miriya. Where'd the other two come from?

That there's colonies wouldn't surprise me but wasn't Dana and Bowie left behind on Earth? Sure Emerson could be transferred around and take them with him but novel 20 has her staying on Earth.

[ShadowLogan]

Dissolve/forming/shrinking. whatever. A person changes sizes in it. Two bodies only appear at the same time in the middle of the process. There's only one body at the start and end of the process. If it were just copying there would still be a body in the chamber when done but there isn't. It's empty. No paper left on the copier glass. Maybe the chamber could work like a printer but if it worked like that, why weren't they printing more personnel all the time?

It matters how the person changes size. If it was a straight shrinking process, you wouldn't be able to see 2-sizes at the same time right? Why there is no body left over in the other chamber is like due to the process dissolving the starting body into raw materials to be used later I would think.

You'd have to copy the person's memories in order to store them. They copies would also only be good as of that point. Anything that came after would be lost. To get the most up to date memories and experiences they'd at least need the brain. And didn't the Masters order Dolza to bring Zor's body to them? Why would they do that if they didn't need it? And why would they do that for Zentraedi?

Except there is no need to keep the data up to date in the case of the Zentreadi if you use it to make new clones as a matter of standard procedure, there might be special cases where they would want to update or drop a new save though.

Yes, the Masters did order Dozla to bring Zor's body to them (in the Novels/GN), but that could indicate that they don't have his memories on file. Which may not be the case with the Zentreadi where they could have started with an unspecified number of memory templates and just reused them.

That Miriya's pregnancy and Dana's birth are the only ones talked about doesn't prove that there weren't more. Just that they were they only only ones talked about. Again, Miriya was a celebrity. Her getting pregnant is going to be noticed. Even if they hadn't used Dana as a weapon, she'd be noticed as the first hybrid. A nameless crewmember getting pregnant isn't. Pregnancies only get mentioned when it's part of the plot. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We don't know the names of children born on the SDF-1 do we? That there weren't all Zentaedi babies born before the end of novel #17 probably has more to do with the Masters prohibition against that lack of ability. Possibly a good dose of fear among the female Zentraedi too. By the end of novel 17 they've had enough exposure that it's not as scary. Plus not everyone wants that kind of attention, or to have their child grow up with it.

The Novel-verse is quite clear, there are no other (natural) hybrids that are not Sterling-Parino pairing in origin, my basic theory for the giants not procreating until then is that they may not have had "old-enough" bodies until then (even if they appear to be in them).

The show doesn't address the commonality of it at all, though it should be noted the Masters identify Dana via neuro-sensor transmissions from Zor Prime to be a half-Zentreadi, something they don't observe about anyone else ZP interacts with, nor any of their captives ("Metal Fire"). This means that hybrids are rare (less than 10% of the people ZP interacts with, or less than 1% of the over 200 captured) and/or generally to young to serve in the ASC, though no one in the UEEF/REF identifies as one either (exempting Sterling) and seems very rare given Alex/Marcus reaction when Mia's parentage is revealed in TSC.

The 1E RPG didn't allow for hybrids either (well aside from Dana), and while the 2E RPG does allow for it they don't exactly attempt to qualify how prevalent it is in society, only that it is there.

While I can agree that after a certain point hybrid would become mundane to the general public, I do think that you wouldn't be able to hide such status from medical authorities and that other early ones would be noticed and get some level of publicity even if the parents aren't celebrities. A pregnant Zentreadi is likely to generate some attention by just being there (hospital visits, being sighted, etc), where if a Zentreadi impregnated a human it likely could be kept lower key unless there was some celebrity status attached. Plus, factor in gene expression and you might not be able to "hide" it at all in some cases if the offspring had odd skin tones (not all Zentreadi had human skin tones) or their odd hair colors (Dana was born with Green Hair, I don't think we know if Dana dyes her hair or not), possibly even their size (would suggest).

Probably. Maybe in that universe heavy gravity isn't as bad for giant humanoids?

No in the Novel universe it is specifically attributed to Protoculture.

Still, why wasn't he mentioned sooner? Why is it just Dana left behind? Why not Dana and ____ or children? Miriya having children before Aurora is out since there's no time for her to be pregnant and give birth in the Sentinels before being pregnant with Aurora on Garuda. That would have to put the boy being born before 2022 when the SDF-3 left. He would have had to be very young not to attend the wedding. Since he's never mentioned, before or after, I'm inclined to believe he's another foster brother.

Again, this gets into that TV show vs Novel issue.

The Novel-verse is clear on why Dana was left behind. However here there is no issue with some mysterious brother. So, pointing to the Sentinel arc in the Novels really doesn't help (I'd also extend this to the old Comics to).

The Show is where the issue is. Why Dana was left behind in the Sentinels OVA is addressed IIRC. Why the brother wasn't mentioned in Sentinels OVA I don't know, which could indicate a post 2022 birth. Why the brother wasn't mentioned in the Series proper likely has to do with it not coming up/factor in any conversation until then (it's not like the other members of the 15th talked about their families much either). However how Sentinels as seen by HG (last I heard) is one of broad strokes without anything specific, so what happened in the Novels/Comics or planned in the outline for the Sentinels animation does not necessarily answer the question in terms of canon. IINM HG ignores the issue.

Thing is that The Sentinels was never completed and nothing in Robotech says Dana's hometown wasn't a colony somewhere

I agree that it is a POSIBILITY for Dana's hometown to be a colony somewhere, but that is all it is a possibility.

Given the timeframe for Dana's Story to Outsiders in the Tv series is "a few weeks" (meaning 5 weeks maximum), its not unreasonable to think the main lag for getting to/from Earth is the time in spacefold. The further away something is, the more time it takes. The time Rick, Lisa, Max and Ben spent in fold in episode #11 First Contact is AT LEAST 10 days (not 10 days maximum) from Earth to Dolza's Base, that's not all that strange that Carpenter's ship spent several weeks in transit after being detailed by Space Station Liberty to find out why they got a "Mayday" from Earth that mentioned a hostile alien fleet.

The UEEF/REF/Pioneer Mission is said to be unable to send any more assistance at that time (per Carpenter to Leonard in Ep47), a delay in getting back could also be related to whatever was occupying the mission proper in freeing up a ship (possibly even equipping the ship to assist Earth or even the right type of ship) and not strictly transit time for the ship. AFAIK there is no explanation w/n canon for why the UEEF/Pioneer couldn't return anytime soon, I know the Novels have their own take.

[xunk16]

As for why Breetai still wears the headpiece, that is a good question. One that could mean the reason is genetic in origin (that is left in place for some reason) and not the result of injury (as in the Novels/GN).

Dissolve/forming/shrinking. whatever. A person changes sizes in it. Two bodies only appear at the same time in the middle of the process. There's only one body at the start and end of the process. If it were just copying there would still be a body in the chamber when done but there isn't. It's empty. No paper left on the copier glass. Maybe the chamber could work like a printer but if it worked like that, why weren't they printing more personnel all the time?

Maybe...or maybe they didn't have access to Breetai's original data. OR maybe the chambers are just sizing chambers, not copiers.

As far as I remember, the notion is to compress the body during micronization, a process made possible by the specific relationship zentraedi have with the protoculture in their genetic makeup. Thus the same particles are more or less used "dried up of their protoculture" to compose "the new body", which is more or less the old body reorganized as particles get extracted, dried, then assembled in the second silhouette. Thus the chamber will try to recompose exactly what has been given to it, including old battle scars such as Breetai's. Once micronized, the Zentraedi are at their closest to humans. (Which might or might not add some fuel to the debate about hybrids being delayed in their existence by factors external to fertility. After all, most zentraedi resisted micronization until absolutely necessary, for it being un-T'sen like; which makes it a source of delay to add to the cultural bias for gender / specie segregation. Then defects in the micronized clone might induce more or less fertility.)

Why do they need the body? They could store the memories off board and re-integrate them with a new body at any time. IINM the Masters do this with Zor Prime.

You'd have to copy the person's memories in order to store them. They copies would also only be good as of that point. Anything that came after would be lost. To get the most up to date memories and experiences they'd at least need the brain. And didn't the Masters order Dolza to bring Zor's body to them? Why would they do that if they didn't need it? And why would they do that for Zentraedi?

Simply they could need to know what happened to a Zentraedi force being wiped out. Maybe they'd need more than one cadaver if dealing with a possible mutiny scenario (Future pirates?). Another team then could possibly be sent with master technicians to retrieve the brain on site. If nothing else, this seems like it could be a good adventure to play with.

That Miriya's pregnancy and Dana's birth are the only ones talked about doesn't prove that there weren't more. Just that they were they only only ones talked about. Again, Miriya was a celebrity. Her getting pregnant is going to be noticed. Even if they hadn't used Dana as a weapon, she'd be noticed as the first hybrid. A nameless crewmember getting pregnant isn't. Pregnancies only get mentioned when it's part of the plot. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We don't know the names of children born on the SDF-1 do we? That there weren't all Zentaedi babies born before the end of novel #17 probably has more to do with the Masters prohibition against that lack of ability. Possibly a good dose of fear among the female Zentraedi too. By the end of novel 17 they've had enough exposure that it's not as scary. Plus not everyone wants that kind of attention, or to have their child grow up with it.

What is funny about female Zentraedi's fears, in that particular instance, is that it includes fear of the children itself, and an unusual level of violence as applied to child survival rates. For one we have the examples of the particular Parenting of Dana by her mother, a few babies could not survive being thrown around or left outside in the snow. If not for Max being there, and Myria respecting him enough to listen, Dana might not have survived either.
Don't forget that earth post Rain of Death might not have a great child services plan, which makes it easier for rampant child abuse to crop into the survival rates, including ethnic killings or abuse.
Also, the RNU gives a grim context to possible births, with the story of Seloy. Most Zentraedi mothers might become pregnant without knowing what is happening to them, or why it happens. Sex was often extorted against food or favors, often by unscrupulous human males that wouldn't stay afterwards, or simply might not have the authority nor strength to stop the mistreatment issued by their mates.

And that is even considering that the baby would be born... at all. The fears might include fear of the pregnancy itself. With most Z-towns being segregated from the humans after the 1RW, there wouldn't be much support groups for young expecting zentraedi mothers. So first one would have to consider all the behaviours detrimental to the pregnancy, such as fight training / recreation resulting in blows to the abdomen. Or maybe some proud warrior performing abortive c-section on themselves to "remove a possible parasite or tumour".
Thus hybrids would be more likely in the event of zentraedi well integrated into human society and with a supportive mate. Myria is just funny that way.

The reverse should be technically more likely as for pairings, male zentraedi with human female, but the occurrences of such would be culturally close to none. Male zentraedi are culturally shown to be even more disgusted by physical contacts at first, and thus wouldn't possibly think of dating in general, even less cross-species. Their feelings for Minmei are shown to be more awe than desire, and such could be of human females in general, due to the special status of females in their own fleets. A human girl might try to hunt for that big chunk of a man, but she might also have difficulties passing through the ethnic bias.
But, for the sake of argument, let's say such a pairing happened, then the baby's survival might be improved by the "elite" status of females in zentraedi culture; which would in turn give more authority for the human mother to protect her child from future abuse. It would also be less probable that the mother would terminate pregnancy or willingly kill the baby out of sheer ignorance or fear (other objections might be sustained) - favouring babies with absent fathers at the very least. (I imagine early integrated zentraedi might bore easily from the fatherly task, though other might enjoy the required discipline and clarity of task-based needs.)

Then there is a pletora of other factors which might compromise the immunity of the hybrids during infancy; so child deaths might be strangely high amongst that particular subgroup. And we also don't know if the hybrids themselves would be fertile. (Liger / Tigon are... complicated. So are mules.) That might also be a factor in planned parenthood amongst the mixed populations. We also don't know the probability of "natural" miscarriages. If these were especially high, they might discourage young couples to even try. (Thus making more probable that hybrids would come into familial units that didn't want them in the first place, and were simply recreating expecting infertility rather than reproducing.)

[Sambot]

Dissolve/forming/shrinking. whatever. A person changes sizes in it. Two bodies only appear at the same time in the middle of the process. There's only one body at the start and end of the process. If it were just copying there would still be a body in the chamber when done but there isn't. It's empty. No paper left on the copier glass. Maybe the chamber could work like a printer but if it worked like that, why weren't they printing more personnel all the time?

It matters how the person changes size. If it was a straight shrinking process, you wouldn't be able to see 2-sizes at the same time right? Why there is no body left over in the other chamber is like due to the process dissolving the starting body into raw materials to be used later I would think.

I suppose. The point was that they were shrinking. Or growing. I suppose the material is reused but at that point it's being used for a new body. You can't make a copy if the original isn't there.

You'd have to copy the person's memories in order to store them. They copies would also only be good as of that point. Anything that came after would be lost. To get the most up to date memories and experiences they'd at least need the brain. And didn't the Masters order Dolza to bring Zor's body to them? Why would they do that if they didn't need it? And why would they do that for Zentraedi?

Except there is no need to keep the data up to date in the case of the Zentreadi if you use it to make new clones as a matter of standard procedure, there might be special cases where they would want to update or drop a new save though.

Yes, the Masters did order Dozla to bring Zor's body to them (in the Novels/GN), but that could indicate that they don't have his memories on file. Which may not be the case with the Zentreadi where they could have started with an unspecified number of memory templates and just reused them.

That Miriya's pregnancy and Dana's birth are the only ones talked about doesn't prove that there weren't more. Just that they were they only only ones talked about. Again, Miriya was a celebrity. Her getting pregnant is going to be noticed. Even if they hadn't used Dana as a weapon, she'd be noticed as the first hybrid. A nameless crewmember getting pregnant isn't. Pregnancies only get mentioned when it's part of the plot. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We don't know the names of children born on the SDF-1 do we? That there weren't all Zentaedi babies born before the end of novel #17 probably has more to do with the Masters prohibition against that lack of ability. Possibly a good dose of fear among the female Zentraedi too. By the end of novel 17 they've had enough exposure that it's not as scary. Plus not everyone wants that kind of attention, or to have their child grow up with it.

The Novel-verse is quite clear, there are no other (natural) hybrids that are not Sterling-Parino pairing in origin, my basic theory for the giants not procreating until then is that they may not have had "old-enough" bodies until then (even if they appear to be in them).

Novel 19 says she's believed to be the only one but it's not confirmed. And then Seloy having a child of her own proves Dana wasn't the only hybrid. They're just not known about. Novel 19 also says there's a lot of discrimination towards Zentraedi. That's a good reason to keep interracial relationships and children secret.

Novel 20 says Dana's the only hybrid. Novel 7 goes from only to only known. Novel 8 also says Dana is the only known child. So while Dana's the only one they know of it isn't conclusive that she is the only one. Which we know from Novel 19 that she isn't.

I suppose it is possible that most Zentraedi hadn't hit puberty yet, although the female Zentraedi look to be in puberty if not past it. I'm wondering if there was some kind of birth control used. A mix of IUD and hormones. The IUD wouldn't get micronized and hormones effect people differently. Miriya getting through those hormones faster than others could be a fluke. Of course, that leaves male Zentraedi impregnating Human females, which we never hear about either because they have their own birth control, or it isn't important to the story.

The show doesn't address the commonality of it at all, though it should be noted the Masters identify Dana via neuro-sensor transmissions from Zor Prime to be a half-Zentreadi, something they don't observe about anyone else ZP interacts with, nor any of their captives ("Metal Fire"). This means that hybrids are rare (less than 10% of the people ZP interacts with, or less than 1% of the over 200 captured) and/or generally to young to serve in the ASC, though no one in the UEEF/REF identifies as one either (exempting Sterling) and seems very rare given Alex/Marcus reaction when Mia's parentage is revealed in TSC.

Yes, the Masters detected Dana's parentage but that doesn't prove she's the only one. We don't know the range of that sensor. And hybrids could be rare but we shouldn't base that on how many people Zor interact with. He was restricted in his movements. As for Alex/Marcus's reaction, I don't know about Alex's but doesn't Marcus hate all aliens? That would color his reactions.

The 1E RPG didn't allow for hybrids either (well aside from Dana), and while the 2E RPG does allow for it they don't exactly attempt to qualify how prevalent it is in society, only that it is there.

Well, the 1E RPG did miss a lot of things and goes off in a different direction from 2E. Although that's not really conclusive either. I've played hybrid characters in 1E. As for the prevalence it the 2E RPG, they don't have to be prevalent.

While I can agree that after a certain point hybrid would become mundane to the general public, I do think that you wouldn't be able to hide such status from medical authorities and that other early ones would be noticed and get some level of publicity even if the parents aren't celebrities. A pregnant Zentreadi is likely to generate some attention by just being there (hospital visits, being sighted, etc), where if a Zentreadi impregnated a human it likely could be kept lower key unless there was some celebrity status attached. Plus, factor in gene expression and you might not be able to "hide" it at all in some cases if the offspring had odd skin tones (not all Zentreadi had human skin tones) or their odd hair colors (Dana was born with Green Hair, I don't think we know if Dana dyes her hair or not), possibly even their size (would suggest).

Without a genetic test, how would doctors know who is Zentraedi or not? How would anyone know? Miriya and the spies blended right in. Hair and skin color aren't a conclusive either. Humans can have odd skin tones and people do dye their hair. And there are some very tall Humans, so size isn't a determining factor either. Plus there's all the radiation from the blasts and the crashed ships. That could effect a child's skin and hair color.

When it comes to publicity, there is a lack of the press. I'm sure bigger cities had press but more remote places may not. There's also patient confidentiality. Doctors and midwives may not say anything. There's also Anti-Zentraedi sentiments, which are a good reason to stay silent. They may even get help from doctors, friends, and other towns people who don't want their home invaded by those who'd do harm. That could also be a reason to squash any story. Not only could there be enough doubt without a DNA test or admittance by the parents but Human mothers and children could get caught in the crossfire. Without proof, better to let people think Miriya and Dana are the only ones. The higher ups don't even need to know since the more who does the greater the chance of the news getting out.

Probably. Maybe in that universe heavy gravity isn't as bad for giant humanoids?

No in the Novel universe it is specifically attributed to Protoculture.

Which gets attributed to everything.

Still, why wasn't he mentioned sooner? Why is it just Dana left behind? Why not Dana and ____ or children? Miriya having children before Aurora is out since there's no time for her to be pregnant and give birth in the Sentinels before being pregnant with Aurora on Garuda. That would have to put the boy being born before 2022 when the SDF-3 left. He would have had to be very young not to attend the wedding. Since he's never mentioned, before or after, I'm inclined to believe he's another foster brother.

Again, this gets into that TV show vs Novel issue.

The Novel-verse is clear on why Dana was left behind. However here there is no issue with some mysterious brother. So, pointing to the Sentinel arc in the Novels really doesn't help (I'd also extend this to the old Comics to).

The Show is where the issue is. Why Dana was left behind in the Sentinels OVA is addressed IIRC. Why the brother wasn't mentioned in Sentinels OVA I don't know, which could indicate a post 2022 birth. Why the brother wasn't mentioned in the Series proper likely has to do with it not coming up/factor in any conversation until then (it's not like the other members of the 15th talked about their families much either). However how Sentinels as seen by HG (last I heard) is one of broad strokes without anything specific, so what happened in the Novels/Comics or planned in the outline for the Sentinels animation does not necessarily answer the question in terms of canon. IINM HG ignores the issue.

Yes, they wanted her to have a normal childhood on Earth. Not in space.

Yes the show is where the issue is and leads me to think it's either an error or a foster sibling. Max and Miriya do agonize a bit over leaving Dana and do talk about it. If Miriya had had another child before the SDF-3 had launched, wouldn't the be agonizing over leaving Dana and -____ behind? Wouldn't they ask Rolf to look after their children, not just Dana?

Thing is that The Sentinels was never completed and nothing in Robotech says Dana's hometown wasn't a colony somewhere

I agree that it is a POSIBILITY for Dana's hometown to be a colony somewhere, but that is all it is a possibility.

A colony could be on Earth. Off Earth, I doubt it since Max and Miriya were clear they didn't want Dana brought up in space but on Earth.

[Sambot]

As for why Breetai still wears the headpiece, that is a good question. One that could mean the reason is genetic in origin (that is left in place for some reason) and not the result of injury (as in the Novels/GN).

Dissolve/forming/shrinking. whatever. A person changes sizes in it. Two bodies only appear at the same time in the middle of the process. There's only one body at the start and end of the process. If it were just copying there would still be a body in the chamber when done but there isn't. It's empty. No paper left on the copier glass. Maybe the chamber could work like a printer but if it worked like that, why weren't they printing more personnel all the time?

Maybe...or maybe they didn't have access to Breetai's original data. OR maybe the chambers are just sizing chambers, not copiers.

As far as I remember, the notion is to compress the body during micronization, a process made possible by the specific relationship zentraedi have with the protoculture in their genetic makeup. Thus the same particles are more or less used "dried up of their protoculture" to compose "the new body", which is more or less the old body reorganized as particles get extracted, dried, then assembled in the second silhouette. Thus the chamber will try to recompose exactly what has been given to it, including old battle scars such as Breetai's. Once micronized, the Zentraedi are at their closest to humans. (Which might or might not add some fuel to the debate about hybrids being delayed in their existence by factors external to fertility. After all, most zentraedi resisted micronization until absolutely necessary, for it being un-T'sen like; which makes it a source of delay to add to the cultural bias for gender / specie segregation. Then defects in the micronized clone might induce more or less fertility.)

Drying up their protoculture is a new one. I suppose that could be happening although the novels would talk about micronized Zentaedi and Dana having protoculture would seem that not all is removed. I do think the person is being taken apart and reassembled some how. Like a Transporter Pad set to reenergize people in a different size. Zentraedi resisting micronization would effect the numbers of hybrids. And I suppose there could be genetic defects which could effect fertility. I don't know if either would be enough to say there weren't more hybrids though.

Why do they need the body? They could store the memories off board and re-integrate them with a new body at any time. IINM the Masters do this with Zor Prime.

You'd have to copy the person's memories in order to store them. They copies would also only be good as of that point. Anything that came after would be lost. To get the most up to date memories and experiences they'd at least need the brain. And didn't the Masters order Dolza to bring Zor's body to them? Why would they do that if they didn't need it? And why would they do that for Zentraedi?

Simply they could need to know what happened to a Zentraedi force being wiped out. Maybe they'd need more than one cadaver if dealing with a possible mutiny scenario (Future pirates?). Another team then could possibly be sent with master technicians to retrieve the brain on site. If nothing else, this seems like it could be a good adventure to play with.

That would make for a good adventure.

That Miriya's pregnancy and Dana's birth are the only ones talked about doesn't prove that there weren't more. Just that they were they only only ones talked about. Again, Miriya was a celebrity. (snip)

What is funny about female Zentraedi's fears, in that particular instance, is that it includes fear of the children itself, and an unusual level of violence as applied to child survival rates. For one we have the examples of the particular Parenting of Dana by her mother, a few babies could not survive being thrown around or left outside in the snow. If not for Max being there, and Myria respecting him enough to listen, Dana might not have survived either.
Don't forget that earth post Rain of Death might not have a great child services plan, which makes it easier for rampant child abuse to crop into the survival rates, including ethnic killings or abuse.
Also, the RNU gives a grim context to possible births, with the story of Seloy. Most Zentraedi mothers might become pregnant without knowing what is happening to them, or why it happens. Sex was often extorted against food or favors, often by unscrupulous human males that wouldn't stay afterwards, or simply might not have the authority nor strength to stop the mistreatment issued by their mates.

And that is even considering that the baby would be born... at all. The fears might include fear of the pregnancy itself. With most Z-towns being segregated from the humans after the 1RW, there wouldn't be much support groups for young expecting zentraedi mothers. So first one would have to consider all the behaviours detrimental to the pregnancy, such as fight training / recreation resulting in blows to the abdomen. Or maybe some proud warrior performing abortive c-section on themselves to "remove a possible parasite or tumour".
Thus hybrids would be more likely in the event of zentraedi well integrated into human society and with a supportive mate. Myria is just funny that way.

All good points. There could have been a lot of miscarriage's and abortions happening with and without the knowledge they were pregnant. And it's even possible some did give birth but the child died because the mother didn't know how to care for it or what to do with it. That kind of thing happens now sadly. As does exploitation.

The reverse should be technically more likely as for pairings, male zentraedi with human female, but the occurrences of such would be culturally close to none. Male zentraedi are culturally shown to be even more disgusted by physical contacts at first, and thus wouldn't possibly think of dating in general, even less cross-species. Their feelings for Minmei are shown to be more awe than desire, and such could be of human females in general, due to the special status of females in their own fleets. A human girl might try to hunt for that big chunk of a man, but she might also have difficulties passing through the ethnic bias.

I don't know if male Zentraedi would have such a difficult time. Generally, maybe but generally a lot of Human males get grossed out by female bodily functions. I think it depends on the person. Kyron seemed grossed out but he also kissed Azonia. More could have been going on off screen. If they'd lived and she'd gotten pregnant, I wouldn't have been surprised.
I do think there was a lot of ethnic bias, which I think would be a reason to keep a child's parentage a secret. And it isn't as if that kind of thing hasn't happened before.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say such a pairing happened, then the baby's survival might be improved by the "elite" status of females in zentraedi culture; which would in turn give more authority for the human mother to protect her child from future abuse. It would also be less probable that the mother would terminate pregnancy or willingly kill the baby out of sheer ignorance or fear (other objections might be sustained) - favouring babies with absent fathers at the very least. (I imagine early integrated zentraedi might bore easily from the fatherly task, though other might enjoy the required discipline and clarity of task-based needs.)

I don't know about elite status but I can see how Zentraedi would presume Human Females would know more about the entire process. That sadly isn't always true. I can also sadly see infant mortality rates going up with parents (male and female) not knowing what to do or how to care for the child. I do think that the Zentraedi who chose to be micronized early on would have an easier time of being fathers. Not that its easy but they'd be more willing to participate and learn.

Then there is a pletora of other factors which might compromise the immunity of the hybrids during infancy; so child deaths might be strangely high amongst that particular subgroup. And we also don't know if the hybrids themselves would be fertile. (Liger / Tigon are... complicated. So are mules.) That might also be a factor in planned parenthood amongst the mixed populations. We also don't know the probability of "natural" miscarriages. If these were especially high, they might discourage young couples to even try. (Thus making more probable that hybrids would come into familial units that didn't want them in the first place, and were simply recreating expecting infertility rather than reproducing.)

Yeah, I can see infant mortality rates among them being higher. I think that'd be more because of a lack of knowledge than lack of immunity. True we don't know if hybrids can reproduce although, I'm leaning towards they can. I suppose high rates of miscarriages would discourage people but if they're wanting a baby, I don't know why that would make them stop trying. I can see a lot of unexpected pregnancies happening. I can also see a lot of abortions happening too.

[ShadowLogan]

As far as I remember, the notion is to compress the body during micronization, a process made possible by the specific relationship zentraedi have with the protoculture in their genetic makeu

Source.

I suppose it is possible that most Zentraedi hadn't hit puberty yet, although the female Zentraedi look to be in puberty if not past it.

I agree they look to be in adult bodies, but that could also be the result of the genetic engineering thinkering with their biological clock so they appear to be "adult-scale", though physically and mentally are pre-adolescent (the males certainly have an aversion/fascination to the "mushy" stuff like male human kids do IINM).

Yes, the Masters detected Dana's parentage but that doesn't prove she's the only one. We don't know the range of that sensor. And hybrids could be rare but we shouldn't base that on how many people Zor interact with. He was restricted in his movements. As for Alex/Marcus's reaction, I don't know about Alex's but doesn't Marcus hate all aliens? That would color his reactions.

While the Masters detection rate is only one, they are also surprised by it to some extent (which may not all be origin related). And as I said they would have a decent sample population to gauge this coming from ZP's NS transmissions (15th, Cocrane, Nova, Emerson, etc) analysis of any humans they captured (at least 200 in one episode alone, possibly more in other episodes).

The point with Marcus and Alex though is that hybrids do not seem to be anything approaching common in the UEEF, or at least not without being noticeable as such. And the UEEF (and UEDF: ASC) have a segment(s) that have a degree of anti-alien bias.

Without a genetic test, how would doctors know who is Zentraedi or not? How would anyone know? Miriya and the spies blended right in. Hair and skin color aren't a conclusive either. Humans can have odd skin tones and people do dye their hair. And there are some very tall Humans, so size isn't a determining factor either. Plus there's all the radiation from the blasts and the crashed ships. That could affect a child's skin and hair color.

Miriyia and the Spies blended in because no one was looking for ~1.7m tall Zentreadi, they were expecting them at ~11m tall. They were also in a self-contained environment, with outsiders being rare (IINM Kyle was the only human brought in post-Fold), with the idea that you couldn't slip in a Zentreadi without being noticed one-way or another in a population of ~70k people.

Doctors (and other medical staff) would know due to patient information and questioning (unless lied to), even without a genetic test. You might even see racist medical staff refuse care for individuals they suspect might be (or know are) Zentreadi, said individuals might also "out" them or take other actions. Medical staff might also want to write papers and other informative media for consumption (either public at large or other medical) to help humans provide better care for Zentreadi if they find they have to modify their treatments, which would mean if there were mixed-species reproduction going on it likely would be "newsworthy" for a while even if you can protect the identity of the subject(s).

Yes the show is where the issue is and leads me to think it's either an error or a foster sibling. Max and Miriya do agonize a bit over leaving Dana and do talk about it. If Miriya had had another child before the SDF-3 had launched, wouldn't the be agonizing over leaving Dana and -____ behind? Wouldn't they ask Rolf to look after their children, not just Dana?

Remember that most of that is coming from the Novels with M&M. The Sentinels as I mentioned earlier in canon is in a weird place per HG, we know that "broad strokes" occurred, but details are lacking. Plus, we don't know how old this brother is supposed to be in 2029 (Dana is ~17yr old, her brother could be between 6-15 years old given the vision sister), just that he exists, so trying to squeeze information about him using Sentinels OVA directly may be a bust.

We don't know if Rolf is/was Dana's guardian after the SDF-3 departs in canon (Novel-verse yes), there isn't any real indication of it from the TV Show (dialogue does indicate he's Bowie's, but nothing about Dana). Rolf might be her guardian in the Sentinels OVA, but he could also just be her chaperon for the trip back since M&M are leaving on the SDF-3 the next day (IIRC).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Why Dana was left behind in the Sentinels OVA is addressed IIRC.

No, it is not. That was never animated and its a rather idiotic line of reasoning anyway that imagines this firewall between the UEF and its forces in deep space that is NOWHERE in Robotech. Again, they have demonstrably FTL-comm on ships as small as the Pegasus-class Assault Shuttle and FTL-travel capable ships in Robotech. Why would this firewall exist?

I agree that it is a POSIBILITY for Dana's hometown to be a colony somewhere, but that is all it is a possibility.

And yet people cling to the absolute NO PROOF that Max and Miriya abandoned 2 of their kids to go off gallivanting into the universe.

AFAIK there is no explanation w/n canon for why the UEEF/Pioneer couldn't return anytime soon, I know the Novels have their own take.

Well, the Wolfe flashback video in Eulogy mentions "enemies encountered by Admiral Hunter's Robotech Defenders" and Wolfe differentiates between being in The Wolfe Pack and being on Earth with "and our enemies, the Invid, are savages". This, among other lines, is a rather clear indication whomever the REF was battling it wasn't the Invid (and couldn't be The Masters either as Carpenter's crew calls the City-ships "alien vessel of unknown origin" in Outsiders). So the REF was out there at war with SOMEONE, but just not the 2 known candidates.

[ShadowLogan]

No, it is not. That was never animated and its a rather idiotic line of reasoning anyway that imagines this firewall between the UEF and its forces in deep space that is NOWHERE in Robotech. Again, they have demonstrably FTL-comm on ships as small as the Pegasus-class Assault Shuttle and FTL-travel capable ships in Robotech. Why would this firewall exist?

You will get no argument from me that Sentinels (and Yune-verse "new" stories) introduces a lot of huh??? like this.

And yet people cling to the absolute NO PROOF that Max and Miriya abandoned 2 of their kids to go off gallivanting into the universe.

I am not taking the view that M&M abandoned anyone to go gallivanting around in canon (or even the Novel-verse). I do see M&M, both being soldiers, electing to leave their children behind for a deployment/mission(s) by choice for whatever reason even though they had that option to take them along. I'm sure there are many military families that can at least relate to the idea of being left behind if a parent(s) is deployed overseas (closest equivalent to the real world), especially if the deployment ends up being multi-year.

I do agree that the infrastructure is there for trade/travel between Earth and extra-terrestrial locations, but I do not think the show establishes the location of Dana's "hometown" or even points to where it could be with any precision.

Well, the Wolfe flashback video in Eulogy mentions "enemies encountered by Admiral Hunter's Robotech Defenders" and Wolfe differentiates between being in The Wolfe Pack and being on Earth with "and our enemies, the Invid, are savages". This, among other lines, is a rather clear indication whomever the REF was battling it wasn't the Invid (and couldn't be The Masters either as Carpenter's crew calls the City-ships "alien vessel of unknown origin" in Outsiders). So the REF was out there at war with SOMEONE, but just not the 2 known candidates.

I do not dispute that there are valid options out there that the show (or other media) suggests could be the answer, I only point out that we don't know which one(s) actually apply in this case for the show. It could be enemy action, but it could be something else (pandemic, a mass evacuation of a colony, mechanical defect in the Fold Drives that did not impact Carpenter's Tok, etc).

[Sambot]

I suppose it is possible that most Zentraedi hadn't hit puberty yet, although the female Zentraedi look to be in puberty if not past it.

I agree they look to be in adult bodies, but that could also be the result of the genetic engineering thinkering with their biological clock so they appear to be "adult-scale", though physically and mentally are pre-adolescent (the males certainly have an aversion/fascination to the "mushy" stuff like male human kids do IINM).

Males having an aversion to mushy stuff could be because they'd never been exposed to it before. Same with females. Some just got over it faster than others.

Yes, the Masters detected Dana's parentage but that doesn't prove she's the only one. We don't know the range of that sensor. And hybrids could be rare but we shouldn't base that on how many people Zor interact with. He was restricted in his movements. As for Alex/Marcus's reaction, I don't know about Alex's but doesn't Marcus hate all aliens? That would color his reactions.

While the Masters detection rate is only one, they are also surprised by it to some extent (which may not all be origin related). And as I said they would have a decent sample population to gauge this coming from ZP's NS transmissions (15th, Cocrane, Nova, Emerson, etc) analysis of any humans they captured (at least 200 in one episode alone, possibly more in other episodes).

We don't know the range of that sensor. It's possible they just didn't detect any. Do we know what tests they ran on the civilians they captured? I know they probed them to see if they knew about the Protoculture Matrix and to see if they could be turned into Bioroid pilots but if they scanned for Zentraedi genes it was off screen.

The point with Marcus and Alex though is that hybrids do not seem to be anything approaching common in the UEEF, or at least not without being noticeable as such. And the UEEF (and UEDF: ASC) have a segment(s) that have a degree of anti-alien bias.

I never said they had to be common and without a DNA test or statement claiming they were hybrid, who would know? That bias would be a reason not to say anything.

Without a genetic test, how would doctors know who is Zentraedi or not? How would anyone know? Miriya and the spies blended right in. Hair and skin color aren't a conclusive either. Humans can have odd skin tones and people do dye their hair. And there are some very tall Humans, so size isn't a determining factor either. Plus there's all the radiation from the blasts and the crashed ships. That could affect a child's skin and hair color.

Miriyia and the Spies blended in because no one was looking for ~1.7m tall Zentreadi, they were expecting them at ~11m tall. They were also in a self-contained environment, with outsiders being rare (IINM Kyle was the only human brought in post-Fold), with the idea that you couldn't slip in a Zentreadi without being noticed one-way or another in a population of ~70k people.

Exactly. They blended in so who would know if they were Zentraedi or not? Kyle got noticed because he came in with Minmay. If not for that connection, his being onboard would have had little notice.

Doctors (and other medical staff) would know due to patient information and questioning (unless lied to), even without a genetic test. You might even see racist medical staff refuse care for individuals they suspect might be (or know are) Zentreadi, said individuals might also "out" them or take other actions. Medical staff might also want to write papers and other informative media for consumption (either public at large or other medical) to help humans provide better care for Zentreadi if they find they have to modify their treatments, which would mean if there were mixed-species reproduction going on it likely would be "newsworthy" for a while even if you can protect the identity of the subject(s).

Without testing it's that person's word or eye witnesses, they wouldn't know. A human could claim to be Zentraedi and no one could say otherwise. And yes, there could be racist medical personnel who would out Zentraedi patients. For all we know there were racist doctors sterilizing Zentraedi patients.

Doctors can also write papers without mentioning names. Even then, if they'd have to be careful not to out the patient without putting their patients at risk, or violating their confidentiality, possibly even laws. Intentionally or not, if they go blabbing Human and Zentraedi patients would stop coming to them. They may get their name on a paper but they'd lose their business. Plus they could be putting not just Zentraedi but even Human female and every child at risk. Plus it'd put a hard won peace at risk. Which could mean the paper never gets published.

Yes the show is where the issue is and leads me to think it's either an error or a foster sibling. Max and Miriya do agonize a bit over leaving Dana and do talk about it. If Miriya had had another child before the SDF-3 had launched, wouldn't the be agonizing over leaving Dana and -____ behind? Wouldn't they ask Rolf to look after their children, not just Dana?

Remember that most of that is coming from the Novels with M&M. The Sentinels as I mentioned earlier in canon is in a weird place per HG, we know that "broad strokes" occurred, but details are lacking. Plus, we don't know how old this brother is supposed to be in 2029 (Dana is ~17yr old, her brother could be between 6-15 years old given the vision sister), just that he exists, so trying to squeeze information about him using Sentinels OVA directly may be a bust.

We don't know if Rolf is/was Dana's guardian after the SDF-3 departs in canon (Novel-verse yes), there isn't any real indication of it from the TV Show (dialogue does indicate he's Bowie's, but nothing about Dana). Rolf might be her guardian in the Sentinels OVA, but he could also just be her chaperon for the trip back since M&M are leaving on the SDF-3 the next day (IIRC).

True, the status of the Sentinels makes things murky. And there could be a universe were Max and Miriya did have multiple children and leave them behind. Then again, nothing says that Dana's brother has to be biological. He could be a foster brother. Or the line about him could be an error.

As for Rolf's being Dana's guardian or not. He did seem to look after her, although most of his attention was on Bowie who seemed to need it more.