Simple solution for mages and psychics in HU

[zerombr]

mages and psychics do get quite the shaft compared to plasma slinging blasters. They do have variety, which can be useful, but they are generally pretty limited by their low PPE or ISP.

My solution? Have the PPE or ISP max be what they start each combat with. In essence they'd regenerate magic a lot faster, after an hour of downtime. It'd provide infinite more usage, and still not gamebreaking by giving them thousands of PPE, since they'd still be limited by their cap.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Have your Mage or Psion carry "plasma slinging blasters" themselves, is the simplest solution.

In essence they'd regenerate magic a lot faster, after an hour of downtime.

Do you mean "They recover all of their PPE and/or IS points with just an hour's rest."?
How are you defining 'rest'?

And is it just the Mages among the total of types of magic users that get this accelerated PPE recovery? And thus those with granted magic users and intuitive magic users left out of these modifications?

[Warshield73]

I have gotten around this by incorporate mystical objects similar to what you see in things like the Dresden Files books. They have objects that they can store spells on for limited time or objects that enhance some spell abilities. It requires planning ahead but it works and is good for Rifts as well. Also remember to be careful with halping mages because they have some low level spells [cough]carpet of adhesion[cough] that can dominate a battle field with very little PPE. Do you have a speedster in your bad guys that makes the Flash look like Stephen Hawking, hope he doesn't hit that carpet to fast 'cause there goes the ankles, and knees, and hips, and yeah it's just going to hurt.

Psychics need very little help. I had a psychic in a player group once who frequently took down half the bad guys with bio-manipulation. Also in HU most characters with psionics that I have seen are mutants with a few super powers and some psionics so it works fine. If I was in a long term game I might let them get ahold of some technology like Caliber-X in the Rifts England book or Noro Psi-tech that reduces the amount of ISP for some powers. They can also run and hide and use their powers from cover so think of them as almost snipers on the battle field.

[zerombr]

Have your Mage or Psion carry "plasma slinging blasters" themselves, is the simplest solution.

Why use magic at all if you just would rather use a gun?

Do you mean "They recover all of their PPE and/or IS points with just an hour's rest."?
How are you defining 'rest'?

And is it just the Mages among the total of types of magic users that get this accelerated PPE recovery? And thus those with granted magic users and intuitive magic users left out of these modifications?

I haven't defined this yet myself, its something I've yet to try in a game, but I think anyone in the standard Magic or Psychic categories would be applicable. Mages in heroic settings don't generally need to wait a full day before they can scrap again, and I think thats worth reflecting

[drewkitty ~..~]

Or better yet, have both magic and a blaster.

Thou it seams that you play in the Galaxy at large more than on earth the way you put things in the OP. *looking at it from a HU PoV*

[Daniel Stoker]

I revamped both ISP and PPE regeneration in my games so that 6-8 hours of meditation or 12 hours of activity gives them back all their PPE or ISP. That way they can use some big spells and not sit there if more then one fight happens that week.


Daniel Stoker

[drewkitty ~..~]

I revamped both ISP and PPE regeneration in my games so that 6-8 hours of meditation or 12 hours of activity gives them back all their PPE or ISP. That way they can use some big spells and not sit there if more then one fight happens that week.


Daniel Stoker

That is sorta like the BTS1 PPE regen time of 24 hours.

what if the char has like 350+ PPE, do you modify you house rule?

[Stone Gargoyle]

I would speed up recovery time, yes, but recovering after every battle is too much recovery too soon. You could also play the mage characters as intended, as in drawing PPE from other people and ley lines instead of just using up their own PPE. I think Psionics and ISP just needs to be reworked in general.

[zerombr]

Daniel Stoker[/quote]
That is sorta like the BTS1 PPE regen time of 24 hours.

what if the char has like 350+ PPE, do you modify you house rule?[/quote]


Hmm! I haven't had that problem yet so I couldn't say. I will say that I don't care for 'infinite magic loopholes' like "oh I make those magic orbs out of the book of Magic, and just keep seven hundred in a pocket dimension where time goes by slower.

I'd probably have to see how it plays out. How a person plays the mage might affect how I view it, I guess. If someone's plan A is 'I cast magic net until its tangled up' ad nauseum, I may not enjoy it that much XD

[Warshield73]

I revamped both ISP and PPE regeneration in my games so that 6-8 hours of meditation or 12 hours of activity gives them back all their PPE or ISP. That way they can use some big spells and not sit there if more then one fight happens that week.


Daniel Stoker

I think this is probably a good solution. One of my players also suggested a limited use ability that allows the player to recover a certain percentage of PPE and/or ISP in very short time. Never worked the mechanics out but some sort of rapid recharge between encounters.

The thing is if you put no limits on Psi and Magic and still give them the variety of powers they have they will be incredibly over powered.

I would speed up recovery time, yes, but recovering after every battle is too much recovery too soon. You could also play the mage characters as intended, as in drawing PPE from other people and ley lines instead of just using up their own PPE. I think Psionics and ISP just needs to be reworked in general.

I more or less agree here. Mages have always had work arounds with PPE by being able to draw on other sources but ISP has always been more of a problem.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Daniel Stoker[/quote
That is sorta like the BTS1 PPE regen time of 24 hours.

what if the char has like 350+ PPE, do you modify you house rule?[/quote


Hmm! I haven't had that problem yet so I couldn't say. I will say that I don't care for 'infinite magic loopholes' like "oh I make those magic orbs out of the book of Magic, and just keep seven hundred in a pocket dimension where time goes by slower.

I'd probably have to see how it plays out. How a person plays the mage might affect how I view it, I guess. If someone's plan A is 'I cast magic net until its tangled up' ad nauseum, I may not enjoy it that much XD

#1 you might want to edit your post to show it was me you were quoting and that it shows up in a quote bubble.

#2 about chars with 350+ PPE in their Base PPE was what was being asked about.

3# The Energy Spheres are temporary constructs. And thus .....limited in usefulness. PPE batteries made via the talisman spell are better for long term building up of a energy base.

------
Maybe the mage will have Food or drink items that allows them to recover their PPE quicker....but that consumable has a stronger effect of the char. Like if it is beer or spirits, making the char horribly drunk...or if it is a food then it ether doesn't nourish the char or adds weight to the char body mass.
(the core idea is not mine, thou if you do know where it is from )

[slade the sniper]

If the caster has the weapons proficiencies to burn, sure go the guns and blades. If not, they chose to be a caster or build up their psionic powers for a reason. That reason is usually going to conflict with "do lots of damage."

One of the things I love about Palladium is they have no issues with game balance...and the PCs shouldn't either. Playing a wizard in HU means you are not the damage dealing powerhouse in other games...it means you are the ultimate utility guy. You can do a little bit of everything and do it well.

-STS

[Daniel Stoker]

That is sorta like the BTS1 PPE regen time of 24 hours.

what if the char has like 350+ PPE, do you modify you house rule?

I haven't had any players with that much of a base to pull from, but I'd probably just cut it down a smidge and see how things work out with the understanding that I might have to tweak things more as we go.

Honestly I don't think it is that unbalancing in a world where people can end up with 3 majors and use ALL the powers all day non stop. (Ok maybe not ALL of them like the APS: Fire supernova power but you get my point), but I also like to think of my games as more comic booky anyway.


Daniel Stoker

[Stone Gargoyle]

Honestly I don't think it is that unbalancing in a world where people can end up with 3 majors and use ALL the powers all day non stop. (Ok maybe not ALL of them like the APS: Fire supernova power but you get my point), but I also like to think of my games as more comic booky anyway.


Daniel Stoker

I usually house rule it to give powers limits based on ME or PE, but I get your point. I still think regenerating PPE and ISP every 24 hours works better than evey battle though.

[Daniel Stoker]

Yeah, I can understand that which is why I thought about 12 hours for regen while active was ok, but I can see changing it to 24 hours. Either way the current system really doesn't work well for me in a super hero game.


Daniel Stoker

[Warshield73]

Honestly I don't think it is that unbalancing in a world where people can end up with 3 majors and use ALL the powers all day non stop. (Ok maybe not ALL of them like the APS: Fire supernova power but you get my point), but I also like to think of my games as more comic booky anyway.


Daniel Stoker

I usually house rule it to give powers limits based on ME or PE, but I get your point. I still think regenerating PPE and ISP every 24 hours works better than evey battle though.

If they ever do a HU 2.0 they need to do this with all there powers. Some real limits on at least the big damage flashy powers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Honestly I don't think it is that unbalancing in a world where people can end up with 3 majors and use ALL the powers all day non stop. (Ok maybe not ALL of them like the APS: Fire supernova power but you get my point), but I also like to think of my games as more comic booky anyway.


Daniel Stoker

I usually house rule it to give powers limits based on ME or PE, but I get your point. I still think regenerating PPE and ISP every 24 hours works better than evey battle though.

If they ever do a HU 2.0 they need to do this with all there powers. Some real limits on at least the big damage flashy powers.

I can already see the EX ME and EX PE minor powers being picked up by Min-Maxers wanting to use the big powers more often.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I usually house rule it to give powers limits based on ME or PE, but I get your point. I still think regenerating PPE and ISP every 24 hours works better than evey battle though.

If they ever do a HU 2.0 they need to do this with all there powers. Some real limits on at least the big damage flashy powers.

It would definitely make it more balanced. I don't think they will do it though.

I can already see the EX ME and EX PE minor powers being picked up by Min-Maxers wanting to use the big powers more often.

Yeah, that's how it goes. You try to limit things and the players try to find ways to work around it.

[Warshield73]

I usually house rule it to give powers limits based on ME or PE, but I get your point. I still think regenerating PPE and ISP every 24 hours works better than evey battle though.

If they ever do a HU 2.0 they need to do this with all there powers. Some real limits on at least the big damage flashy powers.

It would definitely make it more balanced. I don't think they will do it though.

I can already see the EX ME and EX PE minor powers being picked up by Min-Maxers wanting to use the big powers more often.

Yeah, that's how it goes. You try to limit things and the players try to find ways to work around it.

And mages take spells that require little PPE or have no saving throw. If a player takes these powers its one less slot for something else. Min-maxing never bothered me much because those players end up being kind of one trick ponies.

[RockJock]

Over the years I've had versions of boosters for mages and psychics. A wand that helps the mage focus and use his power(maybe drops PPE casting cost), special place of power to collect and recharge faster(leyline/nexus/place of power), focus items that store PPE or ISP for times of need, things like that.

[green.nova343]

Unfortunately, yes, the PPE/ISP recovery rules don't make a lot of sense as they're currently written. 5 PPE/2 ISP per hour of normal rest, or 10 PPE/6 ISP per hour of meditation, doesn't give you a lot from recharging -- it even says a full night's rest of 8 hours of sleep only gets you 40 PPE or 16 ISP.

That's a problem because of how many PPE/ISP the weakest HU2 mage or psychic has. The math is a little TL:DR to go over, but suffice it to say that's it quite possible for the most powerful 1st-level mages to need nearly an entire day of sleep -- not just resting, mind you, but actually sleeping -- to completely recharge, or as much as 12 hours of meditation; some of the most powerful 1st-level Natural Psychics can require up to 4 days of uninterrupted sleep or 30 hours of constant meditation. Even worse, the additional PPE per level for mages tacks another 1-3 hours of sleep (or 1-2 hours of meditation) on top of those costs (depending on their role); the additional ISP for psychics is an automatic extra 5 hours of sleep or 2 hours of meditation (consistent +10 ISP/lvl), meaning the more powerful you become as a psychic or mage the less time you have to actually use your powers.

Whether you're talking about the typical crime-fighter trying to balance work, home, & hero lives, or a Rifts mage just trying to avoid being eaten by extra-dimensional monsters, that's way too long to need to recharge. Sure, mages can try to store PPE in talismans & other objects, or the evil ones can sacrifice animals & people for a PPE boost, or even draw it from ley lines if they're available...but so is every other two-bit sorcerer wanna-be with a grimoire & an unhealthy Lovecraft fetish. And psychics don't get that kind of benefit.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that simply increasing the PPE/ISP recovery rates by a fixed amount will necessarily fix it. Simply doubling the recovery rate works fine for 1st-level mages...but even by 5th level they still have so much PPE that it's very difficult for them to recharge completely. So I have 2 possible suggestions that would incorporate existing rules:

• First option: use the bonuses to spell strength as multipliers to their PPE recharge rate. For example, Ley Line Walkers in RUE get a +1 to their spell strength (which increases the save vs. magic number their target has to use to resist spells) at levels 3, 7, 10 & 13. Incorporating this, a Ley Line Walker would increase their PPE recharge rates to double at 3rd level, triple at 7th level, quadruple at 10th level, & quintuple at 13th level. This way, by the time they're
  
  • Pro: Incorporates existing game rule mechanics so that you don't have to try to come up with a new game mechanic. Also, if a mage class has fewer (or more) spell strength bonuses, it generally is also an indicator of their relative reliance on their spell-casting vs. non-magic abilities, & helps differentiate them.
  • Cons: Psychics generally don't have a "psychic strength" bonus, so you'd have to come up with another game mechanic for them. The closest I can think of is that their multiplier goes up every time they hit a level where they can select a Super Psionic power...except that characters like the Mind Melter pretty much can pick one at every level, & some psychics (Dog Boys & Psi-Stalkers, or the more generic "minor" and "major" psychics) don't ever get to choose them. Also,
• Second option: I noticed when reading in RUE that in almost every Psychic class description, it says they recharge "2 ISP per hour of activity, or 12 while meditating/sleeping". I also noticed that in the descriptions for Ley Lines & how mages can draw additional PPE from them, it talks about how their PPE recovery is not only increased, but specifically gives a rate that does not involve meditation. With that in mind, I would propose the following:
  
  • Mages when awake or otherwise engaged in activity regain PPE at a normal rate of 5 PPE per hour, with psychics regaining 2 ISP per hour.
  • Mages and psychics can also increase their rate of recharging by engaging in meditation. ISP recharge rate is increased to 12 ISP per hour (but they have to meditate for at least 1 hour uninterrupted; interruption of the meditation before the initial hour means no ISP is regained & they have to start over; after the 1st hour, they gain the first 12 ISP, then another 12 ISP per additional hour of meditation). PPE recharge rate is only doubled (10 PPE/hour), with the same rules for interruption of meditation applying. For the purposes of "resting" (i.e. for the healing of wounds or avoiding sleep deprivation), each hour of meditation is also treated as 1 hour of uninterrupted sleep.
  • Mages and psychics can also recharge their PPE & ISP by sleeping -- not just resting, lounging around on a sofa while binging Bachelor reruns, or even playing a few rounds of Overwatch, but actually sleeping. Getting at least 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep will completely recharge a mage's base PPE or a psychic's ISP; if they don't get at least 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep (i.e. they get woken after 4 hours to take a guard duty shift), they still get to recharge their PPE/ISP at the same rate as if they'd been meditating (to be nice, as a GM I would rule that any partial hours should be rounded up or down as normal, but only after the first hour of sleep).
  • Recharging of PPE or ISP at ley lines is increased: being on a ley line or within 1/2 mile/1 mile of a nexus (HU2/RUE) doubles ISP recharge & quadruples PPE recharge rates, double if actually on the ley line nexus, triple if on a "nexus point" [Note, I can't figure out what the difference is between a "ley line nexus" and a "ley line nexus point", unless the former is maybe where just 2 lines cross & the latter is where 3 or more lines cross)]. I would also consider allowing Ley Line Walkers and Ley Line Rifters to further double these rates, given their affinities with ley lines. If you're really super-brave, you can increase your recharge rates to x6 normal...if you want to hang out at one of the "super nexus points", like Serpent Mound in Adams County OH, or the Devil's Rift in St. Louis...
  • For most of the "special events" at a nexus or nexus point, since the extra PPE is only available for a limited time, there's nowhere near enough time to get any extra benefit for recharging purposes. However, it does increase for the Equinoxes (daylight hours for the Vernal, nighttime hours for the Autumnal, x3 for nexus/x4 for nexus point), Solstices (daylight hours only, x10 for nexus or nexus point), & Lunar Eclipse (x12, but because the eclipse only lasts for 90 minutes you effectively only get it for 1 hour before it drops down to normal).
  • Pros: Going along with what appears to actually be in the rules, it allows mages & psychics to be continuously recharging their PPE & ISP, while still encouraging them to spend time meditating and/or sleeping for a bigger recharge boost.
  • Cons: GMs will have to come up with their own house rules & mechanics on determining whether characters get 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Sure, it's one thing if you get woken up because bandits or monsters attacked your wilderness campsite, but that can get old after a while. And someone who's moonlighting as a hero (again, balancing the whole work, personal & hero life) is going to have difficulties working a normal shift, trying to hang out with their buddies/spouse/significant other (whether simply to keep up appearances/have somewhat of an alibi or because they want to spend time with their friends/loved ones), & still spend a few hours patrolling the streets while still finding time for 8 hours of shut-eye. And I don't know about you guys, but I don't sleep straight through the night, & I don't normally get 8 hours of sleep in a night anyway. Sometimes it takes me only 15-30 minutes to fall asleep, sometimes I'm laying there for a couple of hours. And I might wake up a couple of times in the night before going back to sleep. So ideally, characters are really only going to be able to use the "8 hours of sleep fully recharged me" in rare circumstances.

[ITWastrel]

PPE/ISP is a mess, and always has been. In HU the problem is compounded by the obvious disparity between super-powered toons with infinite recharge, shoot all day eye lasers and supersonic speed.

Imagine a HU game, one player has a mage, the others have supers. The first session is a quick fight with a mutant crocodile monster, followed by jaunt to a madman's island, some scouting, and three encounters, the first with a small pack of goons, the second with some mutant radioactive grizzly bears, and the third with the boss mad scientist and his work products.

The Mage has 100 PPE. This is a likely amount, given the mystic study wizard gets 2d4X10+20+PE PPE and 2d6 per level, IF the mage rolls well.

The mage contributes to the Croc fight, casts four spells costing a total of 70 PPE*. The group is victorious, and a 200' long teleporting crocodile is off the streets.

Quick ride to the villain's island the next day (regain 40 PPE from sleep) , and an invisible, flying (31 PPE) mage scouts ahead, locating the goons. A short fight later, ( 20 PPE**) the superheroes have thrashed a dozen bulk-rate minions. One quick interrogation (15 PPE words of truth) to locate the secret lair entrance, and the mage is tapped. The mage loots a goon's gun. Moving on.

Shortly thereafter there's a fight with the bears. The mage has one PPE point. There is no PPE, so there is no armor, no invisibility, no offense, no defense, just a wizard with no magic. Also known as a regular dude. Against giant radioactive bears.
Mage initiative: "shoot at the monster." followed by "stay behind cover and shoot at the monster." Plinking away.
The mage runs out of bullets, The mage declares "hide" as her action.

The Cyborg declares she is "going to choke the giant bear to death with her bare metal hands." The shapeshifter is trying to become a giant radioactive bear. He manages a large bear, disappointment ensues.

Initiative returns, Mage: "hide". "Still hiding" and "Guess." follow. 30' tall radioactive bears taken down by the party eventually.

Boss fight, epic clash, giant monsters, evil scientist on a hover platform and a string quartet playing at gunpoint follows. Epic destruction, island trashed, building explodes, Speedboats jump over explosions, volcano erupts, and similar hijinks.

Every other player pulls off insane things. The magic sword wielding Valkyrie goes primal, slicing monster tendons and climbing the beasts like a field mouse on an elephant. The Supergirl knockoff ("I wanna punch the Godzilla!") sonic-punches the fire breathing giant gecko, and the shapeshifting pyromaniac becomes a T-Rex and attempts to eat any smaller monsters it sees. The cyborg is doing an electric guitar solo while launching a dozen missiles from her back, the rockets are perfectly timed to her grand finish, and as the electrified high-G echoes across the battlefield the hot wind from numerous thundering explosions blows her hair back in the most perfect epic way...

The mage: "I loot the guard room for ammo, then shoot the guard's 9mm pistol at the Godzilla." Plink. Plink.
That helps.

For the sake of the players, we need better casters.
I house rule all HU casters get maximum possible PPE during char-gen, and maximum possible every level. I also give 100% recovery of ISP/PPE from a restful night's (8 hours) sleep, even if interrupted.





*Armor of Ithan (10), fly as the eagle (25), Carpet of Adhesion (10), Life Drain (25)
**Armor of Ithan (10), Carpet again(10)

[Stone Gargoyle]

You do know a mage can draw PPE from others, right? He or she is not limited to their own PPE pool.

[green.nova343]

You do know a mage can draw PPE from others, right? He or she is not limited to their own PPE pool.

It's very limited, though:

• Unknowing victims get to save vs. magic (12+); successful save means the mage gets 0 PPE, failed save means the mage gets 1D4 or half their base PPE (whichever is lower).
• Unwilling victims cannot have their PPE drawn upon...unless the mage is going to perform a blood sacrifice (collecting the doubled PPE at their death), which is strictly limited to evil alignments.
• Willing contributors allow a mage to draw upon up to 70% of their PPE base -- or, if they hold hands, up to 50% of each person's base simultaneously. However, if you have 10 or more people in the group, you need a ritual to be able to draw on their power, which tends to limit it to cults or religious groups (the former most likely limited to evil or possibly selfish mages, the latter might be allowed for good mages).

The problem, though, is that most normal people don't have a lot of PPE -- base roll is usually 2D6 or 3D6 (& PE is not added in), so on average that's maybe 7-10 PPE. At 70% from willing donors, that averages out to 4-7 PPE per person (large groups at 50% means 3-5 each, so you top out at 27-45 with 9 people before you need a bunch of chanting & music). That's a lot of work for a relatively low amount of PPE. It's OK for an emergency situation, but I don't think it's the kind of thing you can rely on in everyday practice. And can you imagine the hero going around to the innocent bystanders, 'Excuse me, can I borrow a cup of your PPE to take on these bad guys'?

[Stone Gargoyle]

You do know a mage can draw PPE from others, right? He or she is not limited to their own PPE pool.

It's very limited, though:

• Unknowing victims get to save vs. magic (12+); successful save means the mage gets 0 PPE, failed save means the mage gets 1D4 or half their base PPE (whichever is lower).
• Unwilling victims cannot have their PPE drawn upon...unless the mage is going to perform a blood sacrifice (collecting the doubled PPE at their death), which is strictly limited to evil alignments.
• Willing contributors allow a mage to draw upon up to 70% of their PPE base -- or, if they hold hands, up to 50% of each person's base simultaneously. However, if you have 10 or more people in the group, you need a ritual to be able to draw on their power, which tends to limit it to cults or religious groups (the former most likely limited to evil or possibly selfish mages, the latter might be allowed for good mages).

The problem, though, is that most normal people don't have a lot of PPE -- base roll is usually 2D6 or 3D6 (& PE is not added in), so on average that's maybe 7-10 PPE. At 70% from willing donors, that averages out to 4-7 PPE per person (large groups at 50% means 3-5 each, so you top out at 27-45 with 9 people before you need a bunch of chanting & music). That's a lot of work for a relatively low amount of PPE. It's OK for an emergency situation, but I don't think it's the kind of thing you can rely on in everyday practice. And can you imagine the hero going around to the innocent bystanders, 'Excuse me, can I borrow a cup of your PPE to take on these bad guys'?

Oh, I was not aware it was so limited. I guess that's another thing that should be reworked.

[green.nova343]

You do know a mage can draw PPE from others, right? He or she is not limited to their own PPE pool.

It's very limited, though:

• Unknowing victims get to save vs. magic (12+); successful save means the mage gets 0 PPE, failed save means the mage gets 1D4 or half their base PPE (whichever is lower).
• Unwilling victims cannot have their PPE drawn upon...unless the mage is going to perform a blood sacrifice (collecting the doubled PPE at their death), which is strictly limited to evil alignments.
• Willing contributors allow a mage to draw upon up to 70% of their PPE base -- or, if they hold hands, up to 50% of each person's base simultaneously. However, if you have 10 or more people in the group, you need a ritual to be able to draw on their power, which tends to limit it to cults or religious groups (the former most likely limited to evil or possibly selfish mages, the latter might be allowed for good mages).

The problem, though, is that most normal people don't have a lot of PPE -- base roll is usually 2D6 or 3D6 (& PE is not added in), so on average that's maybe 7-10 PPE. At 70% from willing donors, that averages out to 4-7 PPE per person (large groups at 50% means 3-5 each, so you top out at 27-45 with 9 people before you need a bunch of chanting & music). That's a lot of work for a relatively low amount of PPE. It's OK for an emergency situation, but I don't think it's the kind of thing you can rely on in everyday practice. And can you imagine the hero going around to the innocent bystanders, 'Excuse me, can I borrow a cup of your PPE to take on these bad guys'?

Oh, I was not aware it was so limited. I guess that's another thing that should be reworked.

The main issue with it is that most non-mages just don't have a lot of PPE, & you can't draw PPE from a mage/mystic without them sensing it (i.e. no "unknowing" donors). I would even consider expanding that to non-mage/non-mystic characters that might have a reason to notice PPE flowing out of them -- for example, N&SS/Mystic China Chi practitioners convert PPE to Chi for their Chi spells (& vice versa for standard spells), so I would rule as a GM that any N&SS martial arts that provide Chi Mastery powers should be treated just like mages (i.e. they have to volunteer to "share" their PPE). I'm on the fence about heroes in the Experiments & Mutants category -- it's not listed in the HU2 book, but Rifts Conversion Book 1 said they had much higher PPE levels than other categories (most were 2D6 or 3D6, with the Ancient Master & most Alien races having 4D6, but Experiments had 1D6x10 & Mutants had 6D6, significantly higher).

Beyond that, though, instead of rolling a dice I'd just make it a set number that, if you're trying to draw PPE from an unsuspecting target, if they make their save you don't get any, & if they fail their save you get either 4 PPE or half their normal base (whichever is lower); getting more PPE either requires asking them nicely (thus allowing you to get the 70%/50% numbers) or being a super-a-hole & killing them for the "doubled PPE at death".

[Stone Gargoyle]

it's not listed in the HU2 book, but Rifts Conversion Book 1 said they had much higher PPE levels than other categories (most were 2D6 or 3D6, with the Ancient Master & most Alien races having 4D6, but Experiments had 1D6x10 & Mutants had 6D6, significantly higher).

In Heroes Unlimited, Supers get 6d6 as an average unless otherwise stated (HU2 page 20).

[green.nova343]

it's not listed in the HU2 book, but Rifts Conversion Book 1 said they had much higher PPE levels than other categories (most were 2D6 or 3D6, with the Ancient Master & most Alien races having 4D6, but Experiments had 1D6x10 & Mutants had 6D6, significantly higher).

In Heroes Unlimited, Supers get 6d6 as an average unless otherwise stated (HU2 page 20).

Ah, I was looking in the wrong place in HU2. In that case, forget about non-mage heroes being able to notice that their PPE is being siphoned off. I'd still give Chi masters the ability to notice, but not run-of-the-mill heroes.

[Stone Gargoyle]

it's not listed in the HU2 book, but Rifts Conversion Book 1 said they had much higher PPE levels than other categories (most were 2D6 or 3D6, with the Ancient Master & most Alien races having 4D6, but Experiments had 1D6x10 & Mutants had 6D6, significantly higher).

In Heroes Unlimited, Supers get 6d6 as an average unless otherwise stated (HU2 page 20).

Ah, I was looking in the wrong place in HU2. In that case, forget about non-mage heroes being able to notice that their PPE is being siphoned off. I'd still give Chi masters the ability to notice, but not run-of-the-mill heroes.

The mage could also just get the permission of his allies to draw energy from them.

[Daniel Stoker]

Realistically though how many allies are you going to have with you and if you can only take half of their PPE with an average around what 21 you'd have maybe 11 per person?


Daniel Stoker

[Soldier of Od]

Drawing P.P.E. from normal people can be very useful if you are in a crowded area. Just sit around in a shopping mall and watch the people go by. If 100 people walk past, on average 60 of them will fail the saving throw. 1D4 P.P.E. from each of them and you have around 150 P.P.E. for little effort in a relatively short time. Hang around longer or go somewhere else and you'll get some more.

Not much use if you are out in the wilderness somewhere or in the middle of a villain's lair, but if you're in town and have any downtime at all between encounters, you can fill your tank relatively easily.

[eliakon]

1)
Try the solution they used for BTS2.
You have a *much* smaller 'base'. And when you get into a "super situation" a multiplier kicks in.
The three thugs robbing the bank is a x2 Multiplier, allowing you to spend your entire (reduced) base in the fight no sweat, and if you spend from the base then you need to 'top up'

The radioactive bears are a x4 Multiplier, instantly refreshed.
So for *that* fight you have 3x your base to use with out dipping into your 'reserves'

Then for the big bad climax, thats a x6 or so.
And as you know its time to go all out you can use the "free" x5 *and* your basic pool. Sure your tapped out...

This works especially well if you remove or alter some of the "I win spells" at the same time. Otherwise you end up with the ability to cast CoA, Mystic Net, Dominate and the rest basically at will.


2)
Another option I have seen is allowing a *super mage* to have a few "signature spells".
So you can cast Thor's Lightning (err I mean 4d6 energy bolt) once per round with no PPE cost. (basically a minor super power).
You can either charge for the privilage (based on the MBAD I would say 2-3 times the spells cost from your base is a good starting point).
Limiting this to one spell per level can do wonders.

3)
I have also seen some games that allow mages to use the Nightbane Talents... exactly like Nightbane.
Pay PPE from your base and get a neat mystical ability.
Again, limited to 1-2 per level

4)
Allowing access to some of the Chi-Magic spells can help *significantly*. Especially Chi to PPE, Create Caligraphy, and Chi Cache. Vajra may or may not be useful depending on if they can be used by anyone, or only people using the proper Mudra.

5)
Combined with some/all of the above and stuff like the Through the Glass Darkly is the idea of a pool of "PPE" that can not be used for spell casting. Instead it exists to burn off for the various things like permanent spells, talents, charms, familiars, magic items and the rest.

[slade the sniper]

That is probably the best idea so far....just use stuff that already exists.

-STS

[Rogerd]

Okay there is a extremely simple solution to all of this. Create magic powers using the HU Powers system, such they can cast and blast all day. Incorporate any spells / psychic abilities as a power when needed. Easy.

But at all time ignore the rules for psychic and magic powers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

#5 sounds very much like how in BTS1 the psionic powers are bought by burning off PPE.

We have seen where it lead to once PB got rid of the actual paying for the psi powers by PPE burn-off and just had psi's base PPE lined as 1d4. All the arguments about if a MM mind bonded with a mage could they gain magic using abilities.

Having said that, all the options Eli mentioned are fine and dandy 'house rules' as they stand #'s 1,2,3,& 5.

#4 is just importing canon rule from another PB game (which in itself a HR but less modifying than the others.) The GM permissions for it to take place are just that....permissions. All the text needed to let a western mage to learn chi magic are in the MC book already. Since 'mudra' are thought forms, much like what spells are, a liberal GM could just let a mage be able to acquire one or two. Ether as they stand or in the form of spells.
-------
Another thing that might be applicable...since the talent mechanic acquisition was brought up. Is an idea I put into my rules for translating spells into talents. The idea was to burn off a bit more Perm PPE to lower the activation cost of the talent. So spending a couple Perm PPE points to lower the temp PPE cost by 1-5 or 1-10 might be something to thing about.

Thou, remembering the charm text in TtGD it could be modified to allow the charm to lower the cost of a single spell.

[Curbludgeon]

In one high-powered RMB Rifts game we went with:

• If current total is below 25%, 25% of maximum PPE/ISP is regained with a 15 minute rest, to a maximum resultant total of 33%. Rest otherwise restores 5 PPE/ISP per hour.
• Meditation restores 10+character levelX3 PPE per hour, and 10+character levelX4 ISP per hour
• Resting or meditating on a ley line or nexus is as standard, adding 10 or 30 PPE per hour to the meditation rate (or 15/35 to the resting rate)
• Meditating within a personal sanctum is considered as being on a line, and provides the same increased rate to ISP.

That allows a 1st level Mystic Study character with average rolls to recharge in 5 hours, and a 15th level Godling Wizard Supreme with max rolls to recharge in 8 hours within their sanctum. More importantly, the initial short rest helps increase stamina without just letting casters blast non-stop. Admittedly we took the line that a meditative state is equal to an hour of sleep literally, so some Coalition psychics had to learn to meditate while appearing asleep to not fall afoul of the Coalition's "Asleep and Proud" slogan while Wild Psi-Stalkers never so much slept as waited, and working in a magical assembly line was far more efficient when a caster was lounging around while near 0 PPE thus making it a choice whether to stand at combat readiness.

[RockJock]

A big thing with mages/mystic study is the flavor you are using for the character. For most of the games I play in you might have a sort of monastery trained mage who is more monk(think Wong in the movies) with a few TA style tats that boost available PPE if not recharge rate, but could also have a bookish mage with a house built on a nexus point(faster regen at home, able to pull on a lot more PPE at home), and a wilderness/druid like mage with a familiar to pull a little PPE off of, and an arch mage( high level) with a ring that cuts spell cost in half, a staff with magic built in, a combat capable familiar or demon as a bodyguard and so on. Similar, if often different options are out there for psychics.

I tend to pick a concept, then figure out how to build what I want, not so much build a character straight out of the book.

[syntheticlife4m]

While many Palladium Books have Spell Strength, HU doesn't, but in my games I give it to actual mages and psionic characters!

[drewkitty ~..~]

While many Palladium Books have Spell Strength, HU doesn't, ....snip

I would beg to differ.

But the Mystic Study's spell str. bonuses are listed in the level up bonuses. And the Base spell Str.; 12; is on page 318 in the spell magic section of the text.

[Reagren Wright]

Have your Mage or Psion carry "plasma slinging blasters" themselves, is the simplest solution.

Agreed

In essence they'd regenerate magic a lot faster, after an hour of downtime.

Do you mean "They recover all of their PPE and/or IS points with just an hour's rest."?
How are you defining 'rest'?

And is it just the Mages among the total of types of magic users that get this accelerated PPE recovery? And thus those with granted magic users and intuitive magic users left out of these modifications?

Yes, too much bookkeeping. Just have them draw P.P.E. from other living beings. Unwilling need a save vs magic and they can
lose a mere 1D4 P.P.E from one person per level of experience up to 10 feet (3m). Doesn't hurt or affect anyone in a negative
manner. Willing can donate up to 70% of their P.P.E., or 50% from each person (up to 9) willing to donate theirs by linking hands.
Just make your psychic a psychic vampire like an entity and have them draw 5 P.P.E. (20 ISP) from those who fail a save vs
psionics.

[drewkitty ~..~]

RW, I agree that all of it is too much bookkeeping.

But you mis-spoke just a bit.
The HU text (page 316 HU2 core book) lists five types of people when considering drawing PPE from another character: Unknowing, Willing and unwilling, from other magic users, and Blood Sacrifice.

unknowing: the target gets a save vs magic vs 12. if the target fails the mage can take up to half the target's total PPE, & if the target succeeds the mage can not draw any PPE from the target.

Willing target: the mage can take as much as 70% of the target's total PPE

Unwilling targets: Are imposible to draw from. (All opponents in a fight are considered to be unwilling.)

Other magic users: same as unwilling but all the time.

Bloos Sacrifice: can absorb all the death doubled PPE at moment of death.

The text specific is specific then it says that the target for the unknowing target's save is vs 12, & that to be unwilling, they have to know about the attempt.

[matt.reed]

as for rest I just mean 'an hour's rest', no metered recovery period. Mages in film and TV can be exhausted in combat and then recover quickly, there's no reason it can't be the same here especially because both mages and psychics in a high powered game are going to be underwhelming compared to the invincible flying brick.

[Sir_Spirit]

Or just claim your psychics/mages got the Drurik of Grenjarf, The Queeeeble just showed up and gives them it. Or maybe the did something for it.
In either case they get to divide their PPE/ISP expenditure by 10, and multiply the amount they should be recovering by 10.
And they can cast a spell with a single action/attack cuz why not?

[matt.reed]

a lot more backlash here than I expected. Huh.

[Ranger]

I think they get the shaft because GMs limit the availability of PPE in the area and never seem point out where Ley Lines/Nexus are where the Mage/Psionic can instantly recharge.

As for my Mages/Wizards, I have them research the spells Energy Sphere and Talisman as soon as possible and normally work with my GM to have them start with at least one of the 2.

[Rogerd]

There a few ways to do this.

Reduce the cost, so a 6th level spell costs 6 PPE to cast.

Then have a set of level 0 spells, or cantrips, which cost 0 PPE too. But they are not offensive and cover basic stuff like purification, spoil, mend, repair that kind of thing.

If you are thinking from a HU perspective, then ignore magic and ISP, and everyone is now solely picks from HU Powers, and they have a particular source like in Modern Age: Companion; biological, technological, super power, magic, psychic etc. This way everyone can blast all day, every day without a problem - but once you are playing at this stage you are essentially leaving normal mages in the dust.