What if...Masters' Population Controls

[thorr-kan]

Dana Sterling is the only halfling character I can remember from the 1E RPG books. I don't recall any Zentraedi children, any Tirolian clone children, or any Terran/Tirolian/Zentraedi hybrids.

What if, in an effort for subtle cultural control, the Masters introduced genetic controls for breeding among their created populations? (Native Tirolians, i.e. non-clones, don't count for this discussion.) That would go a long way towards explaining why we don't see expanding remnant populations of Tirolian clones or Zentraedi in the RPG material. It would also explain the shock at Dana: inter-fertility wasn't supposed to be possible.

What kind of cultural implications does this have for remnant populations?

If there are any Zentraedi wandering around South America or Africa, they're a doomed group. Unless they find a cloning apparatus of some type. Maybe a tie-in for the Factory Satellite from Return of the Masters?

Same problem for any Tirolian clone survivors. But they have the caveat of perhaps salvaging cloning apparatus. If they can maintain a technological base, they may be able to maintain a society.

(I'm assuming any remnants in Asia get swept up in the Masters' dragnet from Return of the Masters.)

[Seto Kaiba]

Dana Sterling is the only halfling character I can remember from the 1E RPG books. I don't recall any Zentraedi children, any Tirolian clone children, or any Terran/Tirolian/Zentraedi hybrids.

As of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, Dana Sterling and her younger sister Maia are the only hybrid children to have appeared[sup]1[/sup] in Robotech's official setting.

What if, in an effort for subtle cultural control, the Masters introduced genetic controls for breeding among their created populations? (Native Tirolians, i.e. non-clones, don't count for this discussion.) That would go a long way towards explaining why we don't see expanding remnant populations of Tirolian clones or Zentraedi in the RPG material. It would also explain the shock at Dana: inter-fertility wasn't supposed to be possible.

Why would they need to? The Zentradi were already segregated by gender and were given no knowledge of biological procreation or anything outside the realm of their duty as soldiers. They wouldn't be capable of reproducing if left to their own devices because they don't know how any of that works.

The way the Robotech TV series and the official Robotech setting frame it, the reason we don't see a growing population of Zentradi on Earth is that the vast majority of Zentradi were unable to adjust to civilian life. The vast majority of them sided with Khyron and were wiped out in the uprising he led after the war ended, and the remaining population left Earth as part of the Expeditionary Forces under Breetai's command. (Said unit gets wiped out in Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, leaving the Zentradi functionally extinct with the only known surviving pure Zentradi being Miriya Sterling.) The absence of a Tirolian refugee population on Earth after the Second Robotech War would likely be because they died out either at the hands of the Southern Cross Army or in the Invid invasion.

(This stance is probably dictated at least in part by the legal restrictions on Harmony Gold's use of the Macross material.)

What kind of cultural implications does this have for remnant populations?

If there are any Zentraedi wandering around South America or Africa, they're a doomed group. Unless they find a cloning apparatus of some type. Maybe a tie-in for the Factory Satellite from Return of the Masters?

Given how rebuilding in the TV series seemed to be focused exclusively in North America, they'd be facing a more immediate doom from starvation and dehydration with no access to food or potable water... and even if they did have a cloning system the Earth military holds all the planet's supplies of protoculture.

Same problem for any Tirolian clone survivors. But they have the caveat of perhaps salvaging cloning apparatus. If they can maintain a technological base, they may be able to maintain a society.

All told, I think they'd have it worse. Earth's population was already traumatized by one alien invasion that ended in a genocide. After the second one, in which the Tirolians didn't turn on their lords to side with humanity, they'd be profoundly unwelcome on Earth. The UEEF is shown to have some pretty vocally xenophobic folks in it, and the UEDF's top brass were just as bad. They may have ended up being abandoned to die in the desolation of Earth, wiped out by the ASC on the assumption that they were more enemy troops, or simply rounded up and exterminated by the Invid the way that the Regent tried to do on Tirol in the comics. Any way you shake it, they probably weren't alive long enough to worry about maintaining their population.

1. As the child hasn't been born yet, I am not counting Sera's pregnancy from the Robotech adaptation of Love Live Alive. That would bring the total to three, as "Aurora" was canonically just a hallucination of Dana's and not a real person.

[ShadowLogan]

Dana Sterling is the only halfling character I can remember from the 1E RPG books. I don't recall any Zentraedi children, any Tirolian clone children, or any Terran/Tirolian/Zentraedi hybrids.

Given the statement about the 1E RPG books, I am going to assume you are treating the 1E PB RPG books as a separate universe and this topic is geared toward that RT-universe specifically.

Dana Sterling was the only mixed-species character in the 1E RPG that was stated out (Invid evolutionary experiments not counted here). Other RT media of that period when 1E license was active did have a few more Zen/Earth offspring (Aurura Sterling, Hirano) and the Zentreadi even eventually engaged in reproduction (Novels #18 EOTC) but that doesn't translate to the 1E RPG verse (except by GM design). From the TV series itself though we know Tirolians on the ship had children (an infant or infants can be identified in a few episodes) and had mates (Karno's triumverite was selected to mate with Musica's triumverite).

I think the reason the Zenteradi reproduction (or lack of it) in 1E is because of their actual age and genetic manipulation. If you look at pg10 in the Zentreadi SB (Book 3) we have age break down options AND youthful appearance (you can essentially be 1 or 2 years old but look 19 or 30). On the next page (and duplicated from the Main RPG) the quick roll table has soldiers age being 1-5 and officers 10-25 years old and nothing on their appearance. This suggests that some of the genetic manipulation done to the Zentreadi allows them to grow to adult size but may not otherwise be ready for reproduction (mentally and physically). Miryia was 27 years old (in 1E main book), so would be in that age group where she might be mentally and physically capable of reproduction (by human standards she is), but given their segregated nature it wouldn't come up (other safe guards might also exist). This would obviously impact them more in the 2010s and 2020s (to young), but by the 2030s (and 40s with the Invid second invasion) it can be more problematic as all the survivors should be old enough. Interspecies mating (human-Zen) is certainly possible, but we don't know how probable it is (Dana might be the 1:1000000 chance) and the gender break down of the Zentreadi Armanda might be skewered to such an extent that natural reproduction can't save them (the REF Zentreadi Warrior has it at 75/25 split, but that doesn't apply to those on Earth).

The Tirolians are another matter. The show suggests they take mates and do reproduce via natural means. Genetically they are also identical to humans (unlike Zentreadi in the show that seem to shift from identical to nearly identical) so they should have no trouble mating with humans or each other. However there aren't that many on Earth and its possible most are destroyed in the 1st Invid Invasion (in 1E RPG there are 2 Earth Invasions of the Invid, series one and post series the second). How well situated that population is to reproduce would depend on their gender break down of the surviving pockets and if any took human mates (as Musica did).

[ESalter]

IMO, one of the points of the end of the war in each part of Robotech was that the two sides would make a new society together; half-alien children would naturally be part of this. The later edition of the Palladium RPG agrees: the NewGen sourcebook includes rules for this.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Dana Sterling is the only halfling character I can remember from the 1E RPG books. I don't recall any Zentraedi children, any Tirolian clone children, or any Terran/Tirolian/Zentraedi hybrids.

As of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, Dana Sterling and her younger sister Maia are the only hybrid children to have appeared[sup]1[/sup] in Robotech's official setting.

This having been said, I can not say it and just point out that the inter-racial stats stat modifications are in the Macross II core book page 17. Yep the words are different, Zetran (male) and Meltran (female) half, quarter (no Zetran-Meltran breeds...shrugs).

Last canon wise the inter-racial text are in the 2nd ed New gen books.

In the old Robotech comics that were not just replaying the animation of the series, there were other inter-race cross breeding. (yes, in all of those comics that are now non-canon they were enjoyable. And you get back stories of some of the characters in the SC, or even the continuing stories of favorites chars.)

I've always presumed that the surviving zentradie would ...eventually learn from humans or figure out from themselves how to procreate. But like with many things that are not presented in anime and other shows, things that don't advance the main story are left out. So no mention of procreative activities or the result of them unless they are the main story characters.

[glitterboy2098]

not just the macross II RPG either. the shadow chronicles RPG has half zentreadi origin options in masters saga and the mainbook (new gen/SC era), as well as half tirolian options in the main book.

as far as the RPG is concerned, half breeds are common enough. though they don't generally carry much in the way of stats differences.

[Seto Kaiba]

Dana Sterling is the only halfling character I can remember from the 1E RPG books. I don't recall any Zentraedi children, any Tirolian clone children, or any Terran/Tirolian/Zentraedi hybrids.

As of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, Dana Sterling and her younger sister Maia are the only hybrid children to have appeared[sup]1[/sup] in Robotech's official setting.

This having been said, I can not say it and just point out that the inter-racial stats stat modifications are in the Macross II core book page 17. Yep the words are different, Zetran (male) and Meltran (female) half, quarter [...]

Well, yes... that would be because the official setting of the Macross OSM and its various sequels takes a very different approach to the fate of the Zentradi after the war. Instead of the Zentradi going extinct, they're the most numerous humanoid species in the galaxy by several orders of magnitude and the Zentradi who were stranded on Earth after the First Space War mostly adapted to life on Earth with some difficulty. Only a small fraction of those ~8 million stranded Zentradi joined Quamzin's revolt and died as a result. Many married and interbred with humans, and many more had children with others of their own species, to the point where they were a thriving population. (All species created by the ancient Protoculture seem to be genetically compatible, as we've seen at least one example of a character whose ancestry included three different species: Human, Zentradi, and Zolan.)

In Macross II, a significant percentage of Earth's population is made up of Zentradi and Meltrandi who defected to Earth after their fleets encountered humanity's and the children of same either among themselves or with humans. Sylvia Gena, one of the OVA's main characters, is a quarter-Meltran on her mother's side.

(There are many, MANY natural-born pureblood and mixed Zentradi characters in Macross's sequels... almost every Macross sequel or spinoff has at least one, usually multiple.)

(no Zetran-Meltran breeds...shrugs).

There's a good reason for that... those terms refer to biological sex, not species. Zentran is Man/Male, Meltran is Woman/Female.

The Zentradi and Meltrandi are genetically modified clones of the ancient Protoculture's males and females (respectively). In Macross: Do You Remember Love?, the Zentradi and Meltrandi were created for a civil war that was fought along gender lines after the Protoculture's cloning technology became the primary means of reproduction and tensions between the genders flared up over their perceived emancipation from each other.

Even though they are separate factions with different engineered modifications and different approaches to technology, the Zentradi and Meltrandi are the same species.

The Zentradi (and Meltrandi) use the terms "Zentran" and "Meltran" to refer to males and females of ANY species... it's the humans who make the distinction between "Male and "Zentran" or "Female" and "Meltran" as "Human" vs "Alien".

Last canon wise the inter-racial text are in the 2nd ed New gen books.

Yeah, the RPG does break with the official setting to a certain extent to allow players more narrative freedom.

Let's face it, it'd be boring if half the OCCs and RCCs were for NPCs only. Especially since the RTSC core book's offerings for human characters are pretty much just "Soldier".

I've always presumed that the surviving zentradie would ...eventually learn from humans or figure out from themselves how to procreate. But like with many things that are not presented in anime and other shows, things that don't advance the main story are left out. So no mention of procreative activities or the result of them unless they are the main story characters

The lack of procreation is, I think, at least partly the lawyers writing the plot. After rebooting the franchise in '00-'01, HG did a lot to try to distance itself from overt Macross references during the development of Shadow Chronicles. That's why Maia is referred to as "half-alien" not "half-Zentradi" and why the Zentradi (incl. Breetai and Exedore) were wiped out in Prelude to get rid of characters whose appearance in new animation might be problematic from a copyright standpoint. (Same reason they got rid of Minmei and Lisa, totally redesigned Rick, and kept Max and Miriya out of the story entirely.)

RTSC, at least, very definitely directly supports the idea that human-alien procreation is practically unheard-of.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I got into the PB RPG system because they did the RT 1st ed. Got those mainly for the liner notes in the back.

Didn't get into the RT rebooted storyline except for the SC movie. That was in the middle of the recession. (if I remember correctly.

In other words you've been preaching to the choir.

[slade the sniper]

Just because the Tirolians look like humans doesn't mean they are humans. They may have genetically edited out testes and ovaries, so that cloning is the only way they can reproduce? If you look at Tirolians in general, they seem to be fairly androgynous, extremely similar looking, and don't seem to have the diversity necessary to have a large enough population to have a healthy breeding population.

Since we do know that Zentraedi and humans can breed, they will. Are there any examples of male Zentraedi breeding? Perhaps the food they were choking down may have damaged (temporarily/permanently) the male reproductive capacity?

As we have seen with the clamor over Resident Evil VIII, very tall females are not something to be avoided...

-STS

[Seto Kaiba]

Just because the Tirolians look like humans doesn't mean they are humans.

... well, except in the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross.

Spoiler:

In the original story, the reason the Zor and their Bioroid pilots looked human was because they were human. The Bioroids were piloted by brainwashed human abductees for the most part, and the Zor themselves were the descendants of the original colonial pioneer mission that disappeared while en route to Glorie when a warp drive accident sent them back in time.

As the Robotech TV series had it, the Robotech Masters - like the Zentradi - were aliens virtually identical to humans in all respects. The Masters Saga sourcebook for RT2E upholds that position, and describes the Tirolians as "nearly identical biologically to humans" and with stats to match (literally flagged "same as humans").

They may have genetically edited out testes and ovaries, so that cloning is the only way they can reproduce? If you look at Tirolians in general, they seem to be fairly androgynous, extremely similar looking, and don't seem to have the diversity necessary to have a large enough population to have a healthy breeding population.

Unlikely, given that in the TV series we're introduced to a male triumvirate who'd been selected to be the mates of the Muses.

RT2E asserts that the Tirolians originally imposed strict legal restrictions on natural reproduction due to overpopulation and then prohibited it entirely in favor of cloning as a form of societal control. The Tirolians have the capability, they just don't use it because cloning is the societal norm enforced by the Robotech Masters.

Since we do know that Zentraedi and humans can breed, they will. Are there any examples of male Zentraedi breeding? Perhaps the food they were choking down may have damaged (temporarily/permanently) the male reproductive capacity?

Not in Robotech's official setting... the only part-Zentradi therein are the daughters of the Sterling family and all the other Zentradi were wiped out (for legal reasons).

In non-canon material, the novelization and some planning materials from the cancelled Robotech II: the Sentinels comic adaptation had Breetai fathering a son with fellow Zentradi Kazianna Hesh.

Smart money says the Robotech creative staff would take their lead from the Macross OSM on that question, the answer being that Zentradi males are perfectly capable of fathering children.

Spoiler:

One of the characters in the Macross stage musical Macross the Musiculture is Sonia Dosel, the granddaughter of Zentradi "Blue Wind" recon team leader Roli Dosel (RT: "Rico"). Lyle Craze in Macross: Eternal Love Song was half-Zentradi via a Zentradi father as well. Macross Frontier and its light novel prequel/side story Macross the Ride offer two examples: Cpt. Klan Klang and 1st Lt. Chelsea Scarlett are both naturally-birthed full-blood Zentradi.

[xunk16]

They may have genetically edited out testes and ovaries, so that cloning is the only way they can reproduce? If you look at Tirolians in general, they seem to be fairly androgynous, extremely similar looking, and don't seem to have the diversity necessary to have a large enough population to have a healthy breeding population.

Unlikely, given that in the TV series we're introduced to a male triumvirate who'd been selected to be the mates of the Muses.

RT2E asserts that the Tirolians originally imposed strict legal restrictions on natural reproduction due to overpopulation and then prohibited it entirely in favor of cloning as a form of societal control. The Tirolians have the capability, they just don't use it because cloning is the societal norm enforced by the Robotech Masters.

If I remember correctly, from a Robotech standpoint (the anime at least), not only do couples are selected through a form of public eugenic algorithm; but the original produced are then used as template to create a full triumvir of partly synthetic clones. Hence the male met by Dana, which state to be seen as deviant for "individual thoughts", and that mention an original body being somewhere else. I think he even propose that Dana would feel better when transferred into a new body (a triumvir of bodies?). Before she convince him that this would be inhumane.

This would kinda make sense. With the first step insuring that genetic diversity is protected, while standardization of units can then be enforced, without loosing possible solutions to disease and mutations in the process.

[ShadowLogan]

Just because the Tirolians look like humans doesn't mean they are humans.

The Tirolians ARE HUMAN, that is established in Ep42, and qualify as 100% homo sapien sapien (even after their genetic engineering) unlike the Zentreadi who vary from EP to EP.

RedHairDr No mistake definite traces of biogenetic matter… that means there was something alive in that thing
BrownHairDr Something with a highly complex genetic code just look at it
RedHairDr Can you extrapolate an image of what ever it was … I thought so
BrownHairDr incredible
RedHairDr I bet its human
BrownHairDr But there's no human being even remotely capable of such technology
RedHairDr We'll have to start rechecking our findings right away… we've got to be absolutely sure
(cut to new scene)
Emerson Are you suggesting Zor is human and not a miniaturized Zentraedi you mean Dana and Bowie where actually correct in their observations
BrownHairDr Yes we triple checked our analysis and it always came out the same sir
Emerson So then we're fighting our own kind
BrownHairDr It complicates things a bit doesn't it
(the scene doesn't end here, it gives us the casualty/loss report for the 1st battle and there are some MIA out in space, and Emerson offers the comment "are you sure of that")

Spoiler:

As Seto said, in the OSM the Zor are decedents of human settlers to Glorie in the past. RT doesn't even introduce the notion of reprocessing humans into Bioroid pilots until EP45, and even then it was a desperation maneuver not standard.

They may have genetically edited out testes and ovaries, so that cloning is the only way they can reproduce?

We know the RM clones reproduce, they select mates (ex. Guard Trimuvete selected for Musica's Trimuvete) and we even see infants a few times. Infants wouldn't be necessary, we know they can clone to adult stage so why do the infant stage?

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip.... why we don't see expanding remnant populations of Tirolian clones or Zentraedi in the RPG material. ....snip

As for the next generation of Tirolians...there are two things.
➢ The tirolian population represented in the Master Saga are all very young (late teens-early 20's) in body maturity for most of the population. Actual age; I would guess similar to Zent's situation; being 12 or younger. As such, they are just at an awkward state where their minds are still pre-teen while their bodies are ready. Taking this all into consideration, any natural progeny of the tirolians are kids at the time of the Battle of Reflex Point.

➢ within the master's tirolian population pairing were planed/given out/decreed from the top. This was in the media (not certain if it was specifically depicted in the show, cause it's been about 3 decades since I last watch the show.) After the defeat of the master there were gapping holes in the procreative pairings, so like with modern humans, they had to find their own pairings.

[ESalter]

Just because the Tirolians look like humans doesn't mean they are humans. They may have genetically edited out testes and ovaries, so that cloning is the only way they can reproduce?

They reproduce sexually: Musica was Karno's designated mate.

If you look at Tirolians in general, they seem to be fairly androgynous, extremely similar looking, and don't seem to have the diversity necessary to have a large enough population to have a healthy breeding population.

They're cartoon characters; you can't judge genetic diversity from animation cells. Anyway, a single Robotech Master colony fortress has half a million people; that's more than enough.

Since we do know that Zentraedi and humans can breed, they will. Are there any examples of male Zentraedi breeding? Perhaps the food they were choking down may have damaged (temporarily/permanently) the male reproductive capacity?

Are there any examples of Zentradi being damaged by their food? We know Zentradi can breed; why theorize that they can't?

[Seto Kaiba]

We know Zentradi can breed; why theorize that they can't?

Well, the topic IS a kind of open-ended question and hypothesis about why human-alien hybrids are practically unheard-of in Robotech...

Blaming the source material only really works as an obvious OOC explanation. The Zentradi have an excuse in that they were largely wiped out in Khyron's revolt, with the remaining Zentradi joining a segregated all-Zentradi unit in the UEEF and leaving Earth only to be wiped out fighting the Invid. The Tirolians who came to Earth with the Robotech Masters don't really have a similar excuse since many civilians were shown to have survived to the war's end and no small number of them should still have been around afterwards. (After all, the alternative is that there was an offscreen Tirolian genocide at the hands of the remaining UEDF troops or the claws of the Invid.)

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you go by the show the only two people that can breed are Max and Mirria. Cause they are the only people that have a child within the show.

[xunk16]

We know Zentradi can breed; why theorize that they can't?

Well, the topic IS a kind of open-ended question and hypothesis about why human-alien hybrids are practically unheard-of in Robotech...

Blaming the source material only really works as an obvious OOC explanation. The Zentradi have an excuse in that they were largely wiped out in Khyron's revolt, with the remaining Zentradi joining a segregated all-Zentradi unit in the UEEF and leaving Earth only to be wiped out fighting the Invid. The Tirolians who came to Earth with the Robotech Masters don't really have a similar excuse since many civilians were shown to have survived to the war's end and no small number of them should still have been around afterwards. (After all, the alternative is that there was an offscreen Tirolian genocide at the hands of the remaining UEDF troops or the claws of the Invid.)

Well... you could always go for the novels and old comics explanation on that one. Mainly, that surviving clones are depending on the music of the muses to keep their biorhythms and neuro-chemical levels in check. Without enough muses (complete trio required), or broadcasts, their immune system fail, they experience severe depression and falls into a state of apathy. With, or without, diverse state of random aggressive bouts until complete organic shutdown.
Invid War had one survive this until New Gen, so they can technically re-adapt. (The more autonomous the clone was, the best are its chances.) But Remes (surviving clone) still depended on Lancer's music to find a good night sleep.

Amongst those that would be able to cope, you'd still have the obvious after effects of becoming an incomplete triumvir when one clone dies. (Theoretically loosing one third of your brain map and have to rebuild it from scratch. Some of humans do, but these can be trying times.)
There is a distinct possibility that their situation wouldn't be seen as "desirable for a wedded life" by most. You can't really exclude the parts of the trio that are still alive, you must like constant noise, and... like the Zentraedi, of course, you generally have to start teaching them life from the basics. If nothing else, that would probably reduce mixed-breeding to a fragment of the survivors.
Mix in the poor living conditions of the New Gen, and you can probably assume "survival of the fittest" dealt with a lot of clones which job was not immediately useful to the problems at hand.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well... you could always go for the novels and old comics explanation on that one. Mainly, that surviving clones are depending on the music of the muses to keep their biorhythms and neuro-chemical levels in check. Without enough muses (complete trio required), or broadcasts, their immune system fail, they experience severe depression and falls into a state of apathy. With, or without, diverse state of random aggressive bouts until complete organic shutdown.

It doesn't exactly fit well with the series, which depicted the muses more as just a mood stabilizer than something entirely essential for the functioning of their society.

Also, I don't think any of us are quite ready to accept poor innocent Bowie as the unwitting instigator of genocide... that's Dana's bag.

[ShadowLogan]

Blaming the source material only really works as an obvious OOC explanation. The Zentradi have an excuse in that they were largely wiped out in Khyron's revolt, with the remaining Zentradi joining a segregated all-Zentradi unit in the UEEF and leaving Earth only to be wiped out fighting the Invid. The Tirolians who came to Earth with the Robotech Masters don't really have a similar excuse since many civilians were shown to have survived to the war's end and no small number of them should still have been around afterwards. (After all, the alternative is that there was an offscreen Tirolian genocide at the hands of the remaining UEDF troops or the claws of the Invid.)

The UEDF's active troops might not be the only danger, there could be civilians (who may include retired military/law enforcement) who have a score to settle or looking for someone to lash out at. We saw it on the SDF-1 in Ep16 at the Restaurant that had civilians targeting the military, and even civilians who targeting military/freedom fighters on Invid Earth a few times (Ep63 & Ep67 & Ep78 for example, Ep67 also shows civilians attacking the Invid in the flashback).

While we see Tirolians survive the 2RW, there are other factors to consider for their survival that do not amount to resorting to genocide:
1. Did the UEDF/UEEF relocate the survivors (there was some level of evacuation of Earth when the Invid arrived, that could explain their absence. I'm not suggesting the Tirolians took the place of Earthers in that evacuation, but it could have taken place in their intervening year if the UEEF brought in supplies and took refugees back into space since the ships might otherwise be empty)
2. Disease. Either intentional or not, Earth diseases likely are unknown to their body, which is human but that does not mean they get a pass (historical precedent: Europeans brining Old World disease to the New World. I am not saying Earthlings intentionally gave them disease, Zor and Musica may have lucked out during their short time).
3. How well would the Tirolian survivors adapt to the change? What was the suicide rate? Was their violent activity like the Zentreadi and at what scale (early small group/lone-wolf Zentreadi or Khyron level)? How did they organize in terms of internal leadership? Did this population of Tirolians have skills to help them survive IF they could not get assistance (or did they have skills/knowledge they could trade for assistance)?
4. What amount/level of assistance was the Earth ready to give to these refugees? They would need food, water, shelter, and medical care. Plus Earth would be trying to provide for its native refugees who fled Monument and Denver and other communities that where attacked. It's quite possible we could see a "Natives First" policy (I wouldn't rule out a faction of friendlies to the Tirolians either).
5. How well did the Earth treat their "alien" prisoners? (The military likely would want to take them into custody, even if they are civilians if Musica is anything to go by. Which leaves us with a 50/50 shot going by the Green Bioroid Pilot and Zor Prime that they might be treated "well" since Muscia technically did not stay in "custody" for very long by Nova)
6. I can't help but think the Tirolians might be addicting to bio-energy supplements (or something else) from the show, which could have an impact on their ability to survive/function properly (remember that the Masters got rid of people with a Bio-Energy Index rating below a certain amount).
7. Given prejudices we can both point out by Terrans (Earth-UEEF) directed at aliens (Zent, Invid, Tirolian Natives) how many of the Tirolians might not want to bring attention to their lineage? If a Zent-Human hybrid can pass for human (Mia in TSC, Dana in TRM) and even some pure Zentraedi (in TMS: Konda, Rico, Bron, Miryia), then the more human looking Tirolians can to as long as they don't call attention to themselves.
8. We have to consider that in the show they jump forwarded with plenty of time for the Refugees to have blended in physically with the people of Earth resulting in skin tones could be less pale due to exposure to sunlight, hair color might change naturally or the result of hair dyes (Scott and Lancer managed to keep their unnatural hair color for over a year), and their resulting diet/lifestyle might bulk them up. Even their speech mannerisms might be gone (Zor Prime as a "free agent" talked differently than his "bioroid pilot" self indicating they don't have to sound like they do).

[xunk16]

8. We have to consider that in the show they jump forwarded with plenty of time for the Refugees to have blended in physically with the people of Earth resulting in skin tones could be less pale due to exposure to sunlight, hair color might change naturally or the result of hair dyes (Scott and Lancer managed to keep their unnatural hair color for over a year), and their resulting diet/lifestyle might bulk them up. Even their speech mannerisms might be gone (Zor Prime as a "free agent" talked differently than his "bioroid pilot" self indicating they don't have to sound like they do).

Musica and some other clones also do seem to loose the artificial voice at some points. I always thought this was to differentiate those under master control, or not; having to do with the harp effects, or simply telepathic control. Another reason might be to differentiate those speaking their native language by opposition to English, without having to use subtitles. Is there an official take on this?

[ShadowLogan]

No explanation is given for the Tirolian Voice AFAIK in the show, IIRC the novels do not have it as artificial but them talking when they inhale (instead of the exhale). The Masters and Elders themselves don't really have the same effect on their voice either (a different effect maybe) in the show.

[xunk16]

Well... at least that's possible to do at the table.

[thorr-kan]

No explanation is given for the Tirolian Voice AFAIK in the show, IIRC the novels do not have it as artificial but them talking when they inhale (instead of the exhale). The Masters and Elders themselves don't really have the same effect on their voice either (a different effect maybe) in the show.

Obviously Bene Gesserit training. There's no other explanation for the Voice.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Once the Fleet returned from Tirol, they would have medical treatments for some of the aliments caused by (I'm going to call it) music deprivations, from what medical people that were left behind in the reminent population as incorrigibles. A.k.a. old people set in their ways. Maybe the masters didn't like their sticking to a 'do no harm' oaths.
Even so the most avalible treatment for music deprivation would to be have a muse play for them.

But I would treat this as a problem with imbalances coming from the disjuncture of the clones' physical age vs their actual age. So that survive their imbalance would able to self regulate with age. In other words, it is caused by make clones as teens or adults physically but having brains that lack the experiences of growing up from a childhood. &/or having an implanted personality. (So Maybe the Zentradi would experience this also, if they give up being macro-sized. In the former canon the three spies that ended up serving as Dana's Tios had an affliction that took their lives, even thou they could get treatment if they went back to being full-sized.)

Call it an inherent flaw in making people/clones from/with protoculture.

[Seto Kaiba]

The UEDF's active troops might not be the only danger, there could be civilians (who may include retired military/law enforcement) who have a score to settle or looking for someone to lash out at. We saw it on the SDF-1 in Ep16 at the Restaurant that had civilians targeting the military, and even civilians who targeting military/freedom fighters on Invid Earth a few times (Ep63 & Ep67 & Ep78 for example, Ep67 also shows civilians attacking the Invid in the flashback).

Eh... it's possible, but the civilian populations took a drubbing at least as bad as what the military got and armed civilians weren't really seen except in the New Generation's Fist of the North Star-esque biker gangs.

1. Did the UEDF/UEEF relocate the survivors (there was some level of evacuation of Earth when the Invid arrived, that could explain their absence. I'm not suggesting the Tirolians took the place of Earthers in that evacuation, but it could have taken place in their intervening year if the UEEF brought in supplies and took refugees back into space since the ships might otherwise be empty)

Seems unlikely, given that the overwhelming majority of UEEF assets were tied up fighting the Invid Regent at the time and that UEEF brass was nearly as vocally xenophobic as the UEDF brass. I very much doubt they'd have invested the time and resources to relocate the Tirolians even if they had the time to do so.

2. Disease. Either intentional or not, Earth diseases likely are unknown to their body, which is human but that does not mean they get a pass (historical precedent: Europeans brining Old World disease to the New World. I am not saying Earthlings intentionally gave them disease, Zor and Musica may have lucked out during their short time).

There is that, yeah... though it could also be intentional like what the Europeans did trading smallpox blankets to the Native American population.

One has to wonder how many infectious diseases survived the near-total destruction of Earth's biosphere though. It's likely that, since Tirolians are virtually identical to humans, that they could easily be treated for anything they might pick up from their new human neighbors.

3. How well would the Tirolian survivors adapt to the change? What was the suicide rate? Was their violent activity like the Zentreadi and at what scale (early small group/lone-wolf Zentreadi or Khyron level)? How did they organize in terms of internal leadership? Did this population of Tirolians have skills to help them survive IF they could not get assistance (or did they have skills/knowledge they could trade for assistance)?

It strikes me as unlikely that the Tirolians would become violent renegades when the majority of their population that the Masters tried to dispose of were cowering in fear and the ones drafted for use as soldiers had to be treated with combat drugs in order to fight at all.

4. What amount/level of assistance was the Earth ready to give to these refugees? They would need food, water, shelter, and medical care. Plus Earth would be trying to provide for its native refugees who fled Monument and Denver and other communities that where attacked. It's quite possible we could see a "Natives First" policy (I wouldn't rule out a faction of friendlies to the Tirolians either).

Letting the Tirolians die of deprivation would be genocide by deliberate inaction.

5. How well did the Earth treat their "alien" prisoners? (The military likely would want to take them into custody, even if they are civilians if Musica is anything to go by. Which leaves us with a 50/50 shot going by the Green Bioroid Pilot and Zor Prime that they might be treated "well" since Muscia technically did not stay in "custody" for very long by Nova)

Probably pretty poorly, considering they were a hostile invading force that had been in the midst of attempted genocide themselves when their leaders were slain. Not to mention the canonically rabid xenophobia embodied by the UEDF leadership...

6. I can't help but think the Tirolians might be addicting to bio-energy supplements (or something else) from the show, which could have an impact on their ability to survive/function properly (remember that the Masters got rid of people with a Bio-Energy Index rating below a certain amount).

IMO, this seems somewhat at odds with the Tirolians the Masters cut loose seemingly being able to function just fine... albeit lacking the emotional suppression they'd previously had.

7. Given prejudices we can both point out by Terrans (Earth-UEEF) directed at aliens (Zent, Invid, Tirolian Natives) how many of the Tirolians might not want to bring attention to their lineage? If a Zent-Human hybrid can pass for human (Mia in TSC, Dana in TRM) and even some pure Zentraedi (in TMS: Konda, Rico, Bron, Miryia), then the more human looking Tirolians can to as long as they don't call attention to themselves.

All in all, like the Zentradi they might look human but their behavior will out them as not human more or less immediately because they're not versed in the conscious and unconscious aspects of human society. I think the best argument against this is probably how the very idea of having alien colleagues was seen as basically unthinkable even after that point.

8. We have to consider that in the show they jump forwarded with plenty of time for the Refugees to have blended in physically with the people of Earth resulting in skin tones could be less pale due to exposure to sunlight, hair color might change naturally or the result of hair dyes (Scott and Lancer managed to keep their unnatural hair color for over a year), and their resulting diet/lifestyle might bulk them up. Even their speech mannerisms might be gone (Zor Prime as a "free agent" talked differently than his "bioroid pilot" self indicating they don't have to sound like they do).

That would require them to survive and integrate into human society... which is unlikely as refugees from an enemy force that'd previously been nuking cities landing in territory held by a xenophobic military junta that was swiftly destroyed by an invading force that hates the Tirolians even more than humans do.

Obviously Bene Gesserit training. There's no other explanation for the Voice.

Half of the senior ones look like they're in a hair metal band... it's autotune.

[ShadowLogan]

Eh... it's possible, but the civilian populations took a drubbing at least as bad as what the military got and armed civilians weren't really seen except in the New Generation's Fist of the North Star-esque biker gangs.

Perhaps, but it would not take "sophisticated" weapons for Terran Civilians to give Tirolian Civilians a thrashing.

Seems unlikely, given that the overwhelming majority of UEEF assets were tied up fighting the Invid Regent at the time and that UEEF brass was nearly as vocally xenophobic as the UEDF brass. I very much doubt they'd have invested the time and resources to relocate the Tirolians even if they had the time to do so.

I'm not sure if the UEEF brass is nearly as xenophobic as the UEDF brass given we know they forged an alliance with the Sentinels (which includes the Haydonites and Tirol by 2044). The UEEF also used friendly Zentreadi in its ranks for over 2 decades, and designed/modified for them the resulting Bioroid Interceptor (which in the 2E PB RPG is intended for micronized Zentraedi and Tirolians in the UEEF, Preludes Datafiles and AotSC do not even suggest it as a Zentreadi use only design though they are technically the only users shown). It also isn't clear cut anymore on when the UEEF arrived at Tirol IIRC, they might be responsible for the UEEF finding Tirol. Such actions to might also be done to build "soft power" and/or "good will" with native Tirolians.

One has to wonder how many infectious diseases survived the near-total destruction of Earth's biosphere though. It's likely that, since Tirolians are virtually identical to humans, that they could easily be treated for anything they might pick up from their new human neighbors.

One also has to wonder how many NEW infectious diseases might arise from the destruction reaped on Earth's biosphere (bacteria are hardy creatures, and it is possible for them to survive in space, viruses are a bit more problematic but it seems unlikely they would be wiped out). One also has to wonder if their human neighbors even have a cure for any new infectious disease. There are many variables to consider here, which makes this a complex issue to tackle.

It strikes me as unlikely that the Tirolians would become violent renegades when the majority of their population that the Masters tried to dispose of were cowering in fear and the ones drafted for use as soldiers had to be treated with combat drugs in order to fight at all.

I agree it seems unlikely, but several factors require it as an option I think:
1. some of the Tirolians on the surface are soldiers (we see them on the ground after the FoL is released) who might continue the war, granted they (and the draftees) likely are also more likely to be prisoners than the civilians initially
2. the population being "pushed" and lashes out or defends themselves
3. falling in with the wrong Terrans (cults or gangs for example) or even the "new" Tirolian leadership that rises from within

IMO, this seems somewhat at odds with the Tirolians the Masters cut loose seemingly being able to function just fine... albeit lacking the emotional suppression they'd previously had.

That the Tirolians could seem to operate "just fine" is ignoring the fact they where cut loose because by some standard their leadership used they where NOT "just fine".

That would require them to survive and integrate into human society... which is unlikely as refugees from an enemy force that'd previously been nuking cities landing in territory held by a xenophobic military junta that was swiftly destroyed by an invading force that hates the Tirolians even more than humans do.

I agree it will take time for them to reach that level, but with 10+ years and mass migrations of Terrans (who fled several major cities) it seems a possibility some of them could achive that integration. Especially if they have help from Terrans to help them assimilate or cover for their odd behavior (ex. Lancer essentially did this unknowingly when he kissed Ariel/Marlene for the Garfish crew to prove she wasn't an Invid, Musica essentially had the remains of the 15th helping/covering for her).

[xunk16]

Eh... it's possible, but the civilian populations took a drubbing at least as bad as what the military got and armed civilians weren't really seen except in the New Generation's Fist of the North Star-esque biker gangs.

Perhaps, but it would not take "sophisticated" weapons for Terran Civilians to give Tirolian Civilians a thrashing.

That is assuming the trashing, or civilian fighting, in question didn't take place before the invid invasion, at least in part, with ASC level equipment. Plus, what we see of New Gen is technically after many failed attempts to reclaim the earth. Which mean, the level described here, must have fallen from the Master Saga. That is a lot of weapons to make disappear and a lot of years to use them.

4. What amount/level of assistance was the Earth ready to give to these refugees? They would need food, water, shelter, and medical care. Plus Earth would be trying to provide for its native refugees who fled Monument and Denver and other communities that where attacked. It's quite possible we could see a "Natives First" policy (I wouldn't rule out a faction of friendlies to the Tirolians either).

Letting the Tirolians die of deprivation would be genocide by deliberate inaction.

You say this as if it was something the unstable ASC, after Leonard, would never do... Considering part of its background as a xenophobic hate group turned militia, then turned "feudal" dictatorship... I'd say you have at least a chance that some units or cities would be turning a wilful blind eye to the Tirolian refugees, especially if their own needs are put in question.

[glitterboy2098]

Dana Sterling is the only halfling character I can remember from the 1E RPG books. I don't recall any Zentraedi children, any Tirolian clone children, or any Terran/Tirolian/Zentraedi hybrids.

What if, in an effort for subtle cultural control, the Masters introduced genetic controls for breeding among their created populations? (Native Tirolians, i.e. non-clones, don't count for this discussion.) That would go a long way towards explaining why we don't see expanding remnant populations of Tirolian clones or Zentraedi in the RPG material. It would also explain the shock at Dana: inter-fertility wasn't supposed to be possible.

What kind of cultural implications does this have for remnant populations?

If there are any Zentraedi wandering around South America or Africa, they're a doomed group. Unless they find a cloning apparatus of some type. Maybe a tie-in for the Factory Satellite from Return of the Masters?

Same problem for any Tirolian clone survivors. But they have the caveat of perhaps salvaging cloning apparatus. If they can maintain a technological base, they may be able to maintain a society.

(I'm assuming any remnants in Asia get swept up in the Masters' dragnet from Return of the Masters.)

i do not think that the masters implemented any kind of genetic sterility in their people. while they are certainly separate sub-species, they are genetically human as the show establishes, and in human genetics the sequences that govern the function of the reproductive system are also heavily involved in many other more important day to day biological processes as well as physical development. Sterility IRL is usually not genetic but rather malfunctions of the various tissues or cellular mechanisms involved that reduce the odds of a successful fertilization and implantation.

i do however think that they had strict population controls in place aboard their Motherships. their planetary populations seem to have little constraints, and it is implied in both the non-canon comics and the new prelude ones that Tirol and other worlds with Tirolian colonies were fairly well populated.
but aboard a starship, even massive ones able to hold potentially millions of people, you'd need strict controls to avoid the population from growing beyond your available resources. given the strict social controls the masters had in place to manage behavior and even *thoughts*, it is likely they had population controls too. but at the same time, i doubt they would want to take the step of mechanically sterilizing their entire populace and relying entirely on cloning systems for replacing the population.. just in case they ran into a situation where they wanted natural reproduction to supplement the cloning tanks (such as say, planting a new colony on a conquered world.)

these controls could be fairly simple. implanted contraceptives for example would likely be common, as those can be reversed when needed. Chemical additives to the populace's food could also be employed to suppress sex drives (and would have the side effect of also reducing behaviors stemming from those same biochemical sources, like aggression.)
these methods would have the side effect that once they stop consuming the medicated food, or when the implants expire, their reproductive system and hormonal balances would return to normal.
since the masters likely had some form of eugenics program in operation (given that we know that arranged pairings occured) it is possible that some more surgical measures were used on those individuals which the masters did not want to reproduce due to undesirable traits.. this would likely take the form of things like Vasoligation in men and Tubal ligation in women, as these are reversable should conditions change, though hysterectomies are certainly possible.

as far as the issue of the existence of other.. i always remember that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. we only have one "official" hybrid but there is nothing in the show to indicate that Dana has any unique status due to her being a hybrid, rather her hybrid status is mostly remarked upon as a result of her specific parentage as the child of a particularly famous parents and their roles in the 1st war.
and in new Gen we basically have no mention of such things at all. this makes the issue wide open for interpritation, butthe more logical one is that the zentreadi and then Tirolians did intermingle with the population of earth and interbred. with a few exceptions where odd skin and hair color occurs, most of them looked fully human and could easily vanish into the general populace once they acculturated to earth society.certainly this seems to be the route the inhabitants of Tirol itself took, as it is heavily implied in Prelude that the tirolian populace worked alongside the UEEF and that some if not many of the people seen in the UEEF in New Gen and shadow chronicles were actually ethnically Tirolian.

[Peacebringer]

On an Earth, devastated by alien orbital-bombardment, what do the surviving Zentraedi eat?

[Jefffar]

On an Earth, devastated by alien orbital-bombardment, what do the surviving Zentraedi eat?

Whatever (and whoever) they can find.


In the RPG context I had the Zentraedi tend to cluster near the crashed cruisers in the early stages in part because there would have been some of the stocks of the nutrient paste that survived the crash onboard (see Ghost Ship).

As these wound down and the Zentraedi became more knowledgeable about their new homes they would urn to raids on human settlements or set themselves up as feudal overloads demanding tribute in food among other things. Zentraedi groups that had access to a working protoculture chamber would shrink down the majority of their group to conserve resources, enlarging again just prior to raids or expected battles.

Eventually, full-sized Zentraedi would be almost impossible to support due to competition with the recovering human population and the choice became go to space with the UEEF, micronize or perish.

[Seto Kaiba]

On an Earth, devastated by alien orbital-bombardment, what do the surviving Zentraedi eat?

Giving the more complete answer from the OSM since RT kind of glosses over it...

Most of the Zentradi who made planetfall after the battle in space ended died well before starvation could become a concern. Most were killed in the land battles that followed the conclusion of the fleet engagement in orbit, and many of the rest - particularly those who landed too far away - were killed by the massive dust storms and super-storms created by the aftermath of the orbital bombardment and/or by exposure to air and water heavily polluted by the dust and debris kicked up by the bombardment.

Those Zentradi who lived among Humans after the war got by on the same stuff Humans were eating. Mainly synthetic food made from chemically and mechanically processed organic waste, but also a fair amount of preserved food from surviving emergency caches and the cargos of downed warships, and what little natural food could be grown using aeroponics, hydroponics, and other advanced food crop cultivation methods once civilization began to reestablish itself. Synthetic food wasn't exactly a dietary change for the Zentradi, though the cuisine made from it no doubt was. (In the OSM, this is likely facilitated mainly by the hundred or so Zentradi ships that joined the UN Forces after the war and the offworld installations that survived the war intact like the Lunar colonies and the space colony clusters at the Lagrange points, which is part of why the military ended up in charge of food distribution.)

Quamzin's/Khyron's rebels got by mainly on what they could steal in raids or salvage from downed ships themselves.

[taalismn]

[

Quamzin's/Khyron's rebels got by mainly on what they could steal in raids or salvage from downed ships themselves.

Always figured that drumstick Khyron is seen munching on was a textured protein synthetic foodstuff meant to give the Zentraedi something tough to chew on and keep their teeth from falling out(after all, if your diet is going to be nutrient paste, why not genetically edit out having -teeth-, unless there are health benefits to the act of mastication?).

[Seto Kaiba]

Always figured that drumstick Khyron is seen munching on was a textured protein synthetic foodstuff meant to give the Zentraedi something tough to chew on and keep their teeth from falling out(after all, if your diet is going to be nutrient paste, why not genetically edit out having -teeth-, unless there are health benefits to the act of mastication?).

With the available technology in the OSM, there are a couple different possibilities for how it might've been made... from simply shaped/textured protein to 3D-printed cultured muscle tissue to a factory satellite specifically clone-farming some kind of giant avian specifically for its nutritional value. Material in later Macross works suggest most synthetic food is closer to the second type in that it's a good but not perfect counterfeit of the genuine article, and only the really cheap synthetic food is on the level of "artificially flavored protein loaf".

For whatever reason, even though the ancient Protoculture mainly considered the Zentradi they created to be biological automata rather than people, they still felt compelled to issue them palatable food and even rations of alcoholic beverages.

(Which raises the bizarre prospect that postwar Earth has hundreds of crash sites still replete with crates full of meat products of unknown origin and alien beer that's no doubt long since gone skunky.)

Spoiler:

The most bizarre prospect connected to that is the one that didn't get touched on directly until Macross Frontier... which is that some of that raw material is, well, people. Miclone systems break down the source body for raw materials after transferring the consciousness to the newly cloned body, and on emigrant ships funerals often involve recycling the dearly departed rather than there being a traditional burial, such as Gilliam's funeral in Frontier.

[Peacebringer]

Whatever (and whoever) they can find.

I was thinking of the Earth the Invid would have, inherited; ruined cities, craters and people living out of Zentraedi skulls as homes.

If many of the Zendtraedi were killed in the battle, the survivors would have a lifetime's supply of food from crashed Zentraedi warships, meant to feed thousands.

[drewkitty ~..~]

[

Quamzin's/Khyron's rebels got by mainly on what they could steal in raids or salvage from downed ships themselves.

Always figured that drumstick Khyron is seen munching on was a textured protein synthetic foodstuff meant to give the Zentraedi something tough to chew on and keep their teeth from falling out(after all, if your diet is going to be nutrient paste, why not genetically edit out having -teeth-, unless there are health benefits to the act of mastication?).

That there is a bone in the "meat" implies it was from a real animal part or it may imply there is more than one type of'food replicators' ...ah.... 'protein synthesizers' in the Zentradie fleet. With the officers having better equipment than the lower ranks.

Thou it would be funny to think that what he was easting was fried Chocobo.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm pretty sure the paste thing was an RPG invention, in the show we always see something akin to real food. both in that scene with khyron, and in a handful of scenes aboard Breetai's fleet.

honestly the idea that the ships had some sort of "food synthesizers" that could take basic proteins, fats, etc and grow or print out food make a lot of sense. especially if they have recycling systems that can break down wastes or raw materials into their different elements and recombine them. that technology would also go a long way to help explain where much of the food the Civilians were cooking and eating came from aboard the SDF-1.

that said, the paste idea could easily exist in such a set up as an efficient ration, or perhaps just as a long term storage form of the base feedstock for the synthesizers, which can be consumed by itself in an emergency.

[Seto Kaiba]

That there is a bone in the "meat" implies it was from a real animal part or it may imply there is more than one type of'food replicators' ...ah.... 'protein synthesizers' in the Zentradie fleet. With the officers having better equipment than the lower ranks.

All things considered, there probably isn't a huge difference between those two options given the technology we know they have.

If a micloning machine can duplicate a living body in all its intricate detail in a matter of minutes, then mass producing individual sections of an animal carcass should be a snap even with less capable versions of the same technology.

i'm pretty sure the paste thing was an RPG invention, in the show we always see something akin to real food. both in that scene with khyron, and in a handful of scenes aboard Breetai's fleet.

Yeah, the RPG takes a lot of unnecessary liberties with the Zentradi that don't line up with the animation for some reason. Like the idea that they're kept in cold storage between fights when the series shows us their bunkrooms and off-duty living areas. Or that they're constantly roid-raging due to combat drugs when the animation shows us they're actually consummate professional soldiers who go into fights clear-headed. Or, yeah, that they subsist on nutrient paste when we're shown liquor and massive chicken drumsticks.

honestly the idea that the ships had some sort of "food synthesizers" that could take basic proteins, fats, etc and grow or print out food make a lot of sense. especially if they have recycling systems that can break down wastes or raw materials into their different elements and recombine them. that technology would also go a long way to help explain where much of the food the Civilians were cooking and eating came from aboard the SDF-1.

It is a technology that explicitly exists in the Macross setting... with improvements in self-sufficiency and materials-recycling literally being one of the two defining traits separating generations of emigrant ships later in the setting.

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, the RPG takes a lot of unnecessary liberties with the Zentradi that don't line up with the animation for some reason. Like the idea that they're kept in cold storage between fights when the series shows us their bunkrooms and off-duty living areas. Or that they're constantly roid-raging due to combat drugs when the animation shows us they're actually consummate professional soldiers who go into fights clear-headed. Or, yeah, that they subsist on nutrient paste when we're shown liquor and massive chicken drumsticks.

It almost seems like they are mixing the (essentially) AU Macross II OVA with the prime SDF: Macross universe and applying it to Robotech and ignoring the RT depictions.. In M2 aren't the Zentran shown to be kept in stasis pods (don't know about the drug use).

[Seto Kaiba]

It almost seems like they are mixing the (essentially) AU Macross II OVA with the prime SDF: Macross universe and applying it to Robotech and ignoring the RT depictions.. In M2 aren't the Zentran shown to be kept in stasis pods (don't know about the drug use).

It does feel a bit like they're borrowing from their own prior - and wildly inaccurate - take on the Zentradi in their Macross II RPG.

Mind you, the brainwashed Zentradi used by the Mardook in Macross II weren't kept in cold sleep or subjected to combat drugs either. They rested in booths that connected them to the Mardook's mind control system to reinforce their brainwashing, and the Emulators used their songs to stimulate and control the fighting instincts of the Zentradi they oversaw in a manner director Ken'ichi Yatagai compared to drugs.