Mechanoids developing Psynetic tech

[SolCannibal]

Of late i've been thinking about our favorite genocidal toasters from hell and it crossed my mind that being an advanced civilization deeply immersed cybernetics and with a penchant for psionics, it might make some sense for them to have a sort of equivalent to Mindwerks psynetic devices.

On one side, the Angel of Death's notes have something about how "her completely bionic shell prevents the use of psynetic devices", what to implies psynetics and full conversion do not go together, what might be an argument for Mechanoids not being able to develop their own, as their changes from biological life might be seen as even more extensive than full borg conversion.

However, the simple fact the Mechanoids as a people not only possess psionics, but are highly reliant on it, would seem to imply the "machinery in your guts messes up psionics/magic" hurdle is one they already have crossed - and in fact was crossed long ago back on their beginnings as a group.

So, i would like to hear people's thoughts on adding this new tool to the space toasters' arsenal - either for their own use, as gifts for any non-humanoids allies - like that doomsday cult in the sourcebook - a Mechanoid cell in Rifts Earth might find.

Incidentally, beside Neuron Beasts and Mindolar, can you people remember any other non-humanoid master psychic races i might have fun messing with?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Can't really see the point. They're already an unstoppable galaxy-destroying hoard that mines Planets and stars wholesale to make ships that dwarf planets.

This would sort of be like adding spikes to the Death Star in case it has to ram something. Sure, in theory, it would add more damage in a very very neiche edge case. But in practicality it's completely unnecessary. Anything a Mechanoid might use it on is already so horrifically outclassed that it is just a matter of them winning harder so why would they develop something they in almost every case will not need.

[Warshield73]

Can't really see the point. They're already an unstoppable galaxy-destroying hoard that mines Planets and stars wholesale to make ships that dwarf Death Stars.

This would sort of be like adding spikes to the Death Star in case it has to ram something. Sure, in theory, it would add more damage in a very very neiche edge case. But in practicality it's completely unnecessary. Anything a Mechanoid might use it on is already so horrifically outclassed that it is just a matter of them winning harder so why would they develop something they in almost every case will not need.

I disagree. There is nothing in the Mechanoids description that says they are stagnant. When I created a new Mechanoid Mothership to invade the Three Galaxies they had Psynetics and some Psi-tech similar to Caliber-X from England, South America 2 and the Noro.

The Mechanoids are a race of incredible psionic power, the FTL drives they use are psionic in nature, so it is only fitting that they would have other psionic enhancements.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Can't really see the point. They're already an unstoppable galaxy-destroying hoard that mines Planets and stars wholesale to make ships that dwarf Death Stars.

This would sort of be like adding spikes to the Death Star in case it has to ram something. Sure, in theory, it would add more damage in a very very neiche edge case. But in practicality it's completely unnecessary. Anything a Mechanoid might use it on is already so horrifically outclassed that it is just a matter of them winning harder so why would they develop something they in almost every case will not need.

I disagree. There is nothing in the Mechanoids description that says they are stagnant. When I created a new Mechanoid Mothership to invade the Three Galaxies they had Psynetics and some Psi-tech similar to Caliber-X from England, South America 2 and the Noro.

The Mechanoids are a race of incredible psionic power, the FTL drives they use are psionic in nature, so it is only fitting that they would have other psionic enhancements.

I didn't say they were stagnant. I was saying Psynetics is probablly not what they're going to spend time developing. They'd want to work on something that moves the needle more.

But hey, it's a game. do whatever you think is fun.

[SolCannibal]

Can't really see the point. They're already an unstoppable galaxy-destroying hoard that mines Planets and stars wholesale to make ships that dwarf Death Stars.

This would sort of be like adding spikes to the Death Star in case it has to ram something. Sure, in theory, it would add more damage in a very very neiche edge case. But in practicality it's completely unnecessary. Anything a Mechanoid might use it on is already so horrifically outclassed that it is just a matter of them winning harder so why would they develop something they in almost every case will not need.

I disagree. There is nothing in the Mechanoids description that says they are stagnant. When I created a new Mechanoid Mothership to invade the Three Galaxies they had Psynetics and some Psi-tech similar to Caliber-X from England, South America 2 and the Noro.

The Mechanoids are a race of incredible psionic power, the FTL drives they use are psionic in nature, so it is only fitting that they would have other psionic enhancements.

I didn't say they were stagnant. I was saying Psynetics is probablly not what they're going to spend time developing. They'd want to work on something that moves the needle more.

But hey, it's a game. do whatever you think is fun.

I agree that at the best the Mechanoids are in a scale that makes the Mindwerks' psynetics seem microscopic in relevance by comparison. That said, this is the Mechanoids played at their most overpowered. Rifts Earth would be gone long ago if something like that entered a game.

The "typical" marooned Mechanoid cell in Rifts Earth (or whicheever scenario of your preference), is more the level of thought/play i'm trying to work at, for now at least.

Also, onee might say it's not so much about adding psynetics to their arsenal per, but adresssing the possibility that it might already be a piece in their bag of tricks and part of what makes that overpowered infrastructure.

In hindsight, it would also make a good excuse for the inability of most powers to exploit or reverse-engineer their tech - it's based in the perfected sinergy of things that no one can make work together by other civilizations' technical standards.

[Curbludgeon]

I like the idea of Psynetics being the much-earlier versions of how the Mechanoids' mechanical bodies interface with their gene-modded native psionics. I liken the Mechanoids implanting psynetics in potential servitor races to putting animals in roller skates; for cruel people it can be good for a laugh, it's usually less than worthless, but it provided the impetus for developments in prostheses, some of which have obvious tactical significance.

[SolCannibal]

I like the idea of Psynetics being the much-earlier versions of how the Mechanoids' mechanical bodies interface with their gene-modded native psionics. I liken the Mechanoids implanting psynetics in potential servitor races to putting animals in roller skates; for cruel people it can be good for a laugh, it's usually less than worthless, but it provided the impetus for developments in prostheses, some of which have obvious tactical significance.

Added bonus that a psionic collective might do things like playing astral teacher/pseudo-supernatural intelligence and gift potential agents with the knowledge to create this kind of tech, among other possibilities.

[Shark_Force]

i find it implausible that rifts earth is the only place that has developed this tech.

on the other hand, if the mechanoids have this tech, it'd be all over the place. they'd have mass produced it and be using it everywhere, and they aren't. and yet, if anyone would have knowledge of it, you'd think it would be the mechanoids. they do experimentation. they practically specialize in the merging of psionics and technology. for them to not have access would be weird.

so, speculatively, there is probably some other reason that they don't use it. personally, my money is on the fact that they react VERY poorly to mechanoids that aren't proper clones that think the same way as all the other mechanoids, but psynetic technology makes you insane (and while the mechanoids are already insane, they're not necessarily insane in the way that MOM technology causes).

so, could they? i'd honestly be surprised if they couldn't. they probably do experiments with it all the time in an effort to create a version that doesn't make you go insane. one possible hindrance is that they're probably experimenting mostly on humanoid creatures as test subjects, and they may struggle to keep them alive long enough to properly see if the side effects are still there.

with most other psychic technology, there are some limits that likely make them not as interesting to the mechanoids as well. for example, they don't seem to have a ton of melee focus, so i doubt they care all that much about something like calibur-x, and the ability to recharge guns with ISP is less exciting when all of your guns are already hooked up to a nigh-infinite power supply that lasts for decades.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think my issue with that "Any psychic/cybernetic forcused race this advanced must have developed Psynetic implants" because that basically implies that technology and technological advancement follows a linear path, that you must pass through X to get to Y. But in practice, technology is more applyed problem solving and depends on what problems people are actually facing.

Psynetics are one solution to the problem: you create implants that modify the brain to produce various psionic enhancements.

But that's not the only way to solve the desired problem of "Enhance psionics". The mechanoids went far more into genetic engineering as a way to do it. so if you already have genetically modified brains to have massively powerful psionics and don't lose their psionic ability when Cyborgized, then you don't really need to spend any resources on Psynetics because you already have a solution to the problem, and one that doesn't cause likely insanity and strokes as side effects.

So why on earth would they use janky cybernetic brain implants to modify the brain to do things with janky negtative side effects when their genetic engineering is to the level they can just modify the brain directly with no side effects that arn't desired?

Basically to my mind saying they should use Psynetics is like saying we have to know how to make steam powered ships. We do, sure, but we never would because for anything we could possibly want a ship to do, we can use better technology than steam.

Same here. for any possible psionic enhancement that Psynetics could do, they have a probablly better gene mod for that. So a better and more in character angle would be less on cybernetic psionics and more on brain packages similar to the Eugentic psionic offerings, but much more expansive and comprehensive.

TL:DR. I don't disagree the Mechanoids could develop Psynetics if they want to, but they have something so massively better already I cant' see them wanting to.

[SolCannibal]

i find it implausible that rifts earth is the only place that has developed this tech.

on the other hand, if the mechanoids have this tech, it'd be all over the place. they'd have mass produced it and be using it everywhere, and they aren't. and yet, if anyone would have knowledge of it, you'd think it would be the mechanoids. they do experimentation. they practically specialize in the merging of psionics and technology. for them to not have access would be weird.

so, speculatively, there is probably some other reason that they don't use it. personally, my money is on the fact that they react VERY poorly to mechanoids that aren't proper clones that think the same way as all the other mechanoids, but psynetic technology makes you insane (and while the mechanoids are already insane, they're not necessarily insane in the way that MOM technology causes).

Or are they? what if some of the collective insanity of the Mechanoids is, at least in part, the result of centuries of highly developed psynetics combined with indoctrination at work? Honestly, this topic is leading my mind in some really unexpected tangents.... and i'm liking it.

Not saying i will make it so in my games, at least yet, but it makes some interesting food for thought i guess.

so, could they? i'd honestly be surprised if they couldn't. they probably do experiments with it all the time in an effort to create a version that doesn't make you go insane. one possible hindrance is that they're probably experimenting mostly on humanoid creatures as test subjects, and they may struggle to keep them alive long enough to properly see if the side effects are still there.

Mechanoids playing Angel of Death with humanoids to learn more about MoM/psynetics could be interesting. Or one could take it even farther - "learn about yourself" and make a full clone, no implants, no nothing, fully grown image of what would one of them be as complete biological being. Blasphemous, scandalous and might get it killed - but doesn't the advance if science require the occasional breaking of taboos or atrocity?

with most other psychic technology, there are some limits that likely make them not as interesting to the mechanoids as well. for example, they don't seem to have a ton of melee focus, so i doubt they care all that much about something like calibur-x, and the ability to recharge guns with ISP is less exciting when all of your guns are already hooked up to a nigh-infinite power supply that lasts for decades.

Caliber-X plays with one power - Psi-Sword. but psionics as a whole cover a lot more options, so there's room for a range of variants or alternatives, as many as there are Super Psionics powers, might be said. Some are bound to be of value to the Doom Toasters from Space. Should be worth tinkering with later on, i guess.

edit: you made some very pertinent points Nekira - though i'm not sure at the moment if i agree, disaaggree or a bit of both. but i'll also admit it has been more than a decade since i gave SB2 (or Mechanoid Trilogy) a good look for the last time, so my memories on Mechanoid biotech or genesplicing are muddy at best. No denying i need something of a refresh course to get a better hang of what directions i might go into if i ever toy in my games with something like a return of the Doom Toasters of Space.

[Warshield73]

Can't really see the point. They're already an unstoppable galaxy-destroying hoard that mines Planets and stars wholesale to make ships that dwarf Death Stars.

This would sort of be like adding spikes to the Death Star in case it has to ram something. Sure, in theory, it would add more damage in a very very neiche edge case. But in practicality it's completely unnecessary. Anything a Mechanoid might use it on is already so horrifically outclassed that it is just a matter of them winning harder so why would they develop something they in almost every case will not need.

I disagree. There is nothing in the Mechanoids description that says they are stagnant. When I created a new Mechanoid Mothership to invade the Three Galaxies they had Psynetics and some Psi-tech similar to Caliber-X from England, South America 2 and the Noro.

The Mechanoids are a race of incredible psionic power, the FTL drives they use are psionic in nature, so it is only fitting that they would have other psionic enhancements.

I didn't say they were stagnant. I was saying Psynetics is probablly not what they're going to spend time developing. They'd want to work on something that moves the needle more.

But hey, it's a game. do whatever you think is fun.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend and I agree. When we are adding to the games fun really is the key.

A few clarifications:
1) The Mechanoids themselves are described as enjoying combat and they themselves attack planets to soften them up, "play" with people, and even conducting experiments on them. Runners, Brutes, Wasps, and especially Exterminators and Seekers really can get up close and personal. So for these reasons I added a few powers to each

2) I do not give them tech identical to Psynetics or the others. I actually agree with the point about tech not following a straight line. What I give them is cybernetic and tech enhancements to their psionics with similar effect to Psynetics, Noro Psi-tech, and Caliber-X.

3) With everything in the book like brain pools and the Psionic powered FTL drive they use I just think that psionic enhancement is an area that the Mechanoids would explore right along with cybernetics.

[Shark_Force]

technology may not be linear, but at some point along the way if you focus on the same thing as someone else, you're probably going to make a heck of a lot of the same discoveries.

given how far ahead in technology the mechanoids are, and specifically in fields related to psychic technologies, it is simply not plausible that they haven't at least come across the same principles. they may have largely rejected it (at least, for mass adoption; as i said, i expect they experiment along those lines plenty), but they obviously have extensive knowledge of the biology and genetics behind psionics, the idea that they've got no knowledge of how to enhance those attributes using technology just seems implausible. the idea that they've never jammed something like MOM devices into the skulls of some unfortunate humanoids to see what happens just seems unlikely, and once they've got the basics down psynetics are pretty much just the result of refining the process with callous experimentation, and the mechanoids are not the sort to shy away from that (provided they've got humanoids to experiment on).

they may not have all of the exact same implants, but they most likely have psynetics. probably including some that the angel of death hasn't discovered (yet).

[SolCannibal]

Have been raring to get back to the Mechanoids Sourcebook with no definite plan in mind - maybe add or tweak their bag of tricks, explore a bit some elements not clearly discussed of their resources, mess a bit with their society, culture and maybe doing other branches of divergence on their civilization beside the Aberrant Mechanoids.

But back on the main subject per se, i guess that my interest is not so much in giving psynetics to the Mechanoids but ask the question "being a whole civilization of psionic cyborgs (from space), couldn't it mean they already have something like psynetics, considering cybernetics and psionics usually do not mesh?" and what the possible answers might be.

If they do have it, what kind of influence might it already be having in their society (and how its loss/neutralization might affect them), would they pass samples or know-how to potential nonhumanoid allies or followers or any of a number of ensuing questions.

If they never developed psynetics, it brings the question of what kind of alternative solutions to the "cybernetics mess psionics" problem they - and even more importantly in my opinion how and why - arrived for it.

Also, the degree of psionic know-how they possess and what kind of strange indirect scouting, sabotage or battle tactics they might have evolved because of it.

Lots of vague ideas still trying to take form - but the ups and downs of the topic show, imho, how there's much potential to still mine from the Doom Toasters of space.

[ShadowLogan]

Incidentally, beside Neuron Beasts and Mindolar, can you people remember any other non-humanoid master psychic races i might have fun messing with?

Dirari Ecto-Men (WB30 pg66-71): technically non-humanoid but the ecto-body is humanoid
Psymbiote (WB12 pg105-8)
Dragon Cat (WB12 pg99-101)
Land Ray (WB12 pg101-2)
Metzla (WB2 pg54-63); various types all psionic
Shaydor Spherian Stilt People (WB2 pg77-9)
Dragons (some species are Master level)
Emirin (CB1r pg149-150): psionic cat, might want to look at CB1r
Blood Lizard (SA2 pg137-8): technically non-humanoid
Dragons (not universal, but some species do come in at Master)

[Rallan]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Mechanoids are probably already using some kind of psionic augmentation/amplification technology, since they somehow manage to be powerful psychics despite being full conversion cyborgs. And on top of that it's most definitely canon that they can genetically engineer castes to have very specific sets of psychic powers. And on top of that, the procedures they use to both imbue their entire race with psychic power and make it possible for them to use that power after they're grafted into their cyborg bodies doesn't cause random insanity.

So it's a safe bet that if they ever got their hands on the stuff Mindwerks is making, they'd probably consider it quaint.

[SolCannibal]

Incidentally, beside Neuron Beasts and Mindolar, can you people remember any other non-humanoid master psychic races i might have fun messing with?

Dirari Ecto-Men (WB30 pg66-71): technically non-humanoid but the ecto-body is humanoid
Psymbiote (WB12 pg105-8)
Dragon Cat (WB12 pg99-101)
Land Ray (WB12 pg101-2)
Metzla (WB2 pg54-63); various types all psionic
Shaydor Spherian Stilt People (WB2 pg77-9)
Emirin (CB1r pg149-150): psionic cat, might want to look at CB1r
Blood Lizard (SA2 pg137-8): technically non-humanoid
Dragons (not universal, but some species do come in at Master)

That makes a nice springboard. A good chunk of these are from Psyscape or even later on, but that's life.
Incidentally, i ask myself if some of the stuff that appears in Psyscape could be usable by the Doom Toasters and in what ways.
Another one to re-read for "Return of the Toasters" game, i guess.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Mechanoids are probably already using some kind of psionic augmentation/amplification technology, since they somehow manage to be powerful psychics despite being full conversion cyborgs. And on top of that it's most definitely canon that they can genetically engineer castes to have very specific sets of psychic powers. And on top of that, the procedures they use to both imbue their entire race with psychic power and make it possible for them to use that power after they're grafted into their cyborg bodies doesn't cause random insanity.

So it's a safe bet that if they ever got their hands on the stuff Mindwerks is making, they'd probably consider it quaint.

Yes, the more i think about it, the more i feel like some of the stuff the Doom Toasters are known to do already involves some form of psynetics, light-years beyond the Mindwerks' people wildest dreams.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That was mostly the point I was trying to make, albiet not nearly as well as Rallan

[Daniel Stoker]

I agree with Nek agreeing with Rallan agreeing with Nek!


Daniel Stoker

[SolCannibal]

A little tangent but somewhat pertinent - has anyone here ever heard of the Drolian Council?

They are described in passing in the backstory of Selkind the Metal Mage (one of the members of Tolkeen's Circle of Twelve, from Final Siege) as the ruling body a little-known race of ancient Techno-Wizards, who collectively serve as supernatural force which grants the shifter his powers of mind and body through Supernatural Link, along with the freakish Techno-Wizardry cybernetics that are the source of his title.

I ask myself if a Mechanoid horde or something along those lines could experiment with a similar role. I guess probably not, as supernatural links are, afaik, wholy in the province of magic, having never seen something like a psychic Witch or Shifter equivalent. But i would like to hear other people's opinions & musings on either idea.

- Mechanoids playing at the Alien Intelligence, possessing entity or evil spirit guide roles.
- or the possibility of psionic pacts/supernatural links and what might those entail.

[Shark_Force]

hmmm... i'm not sure the mechanoids are at all familiar with magic.

from what i can recall they had never encountered a dimensional rift before, according to rifts mechanoids. never owned the actual mechanoids book(s?), so i don't know if anyone in that setting has used magic, but it is another factor to consider that with as many planets and civilizations as the mechanoids have conquered or fought, that's another reason to assume they've encountered most forms of technology.

[SolCannibal]

hmmm... i'm not sure the mechanoids are at all familiar with magic.

from what i can recall they had never encountered a dimensional rift before, according to rifts mechanoids. never owned the actual mechanoids book(s?), so i don't know if anyone in that setting has used magic, but it is another factor to consider that with as many planets and civilizations as the mechanoids have conquered or fought, that's another reason to assume they've encountered most forms of technology.

And yet, we have in Rifts books at least two tales of deities battling with the Doom Toasters: Poseidon's in Pantheons of the Megaverse and that of Viracocha and the Pantheon of the Sun in South America 2.

But i agree that as described in Sourcebook 2 they seem to have no familiarity with magic - when it comes to wielding it, at least.
About the original trilogy i can't say for sure, but i think there was no magic in that setting.

[Killer Cyborg]

Of late i've been thinking about our favorite genocidal toasters from hell and it crossed my mind that being an advanced civilization deeply immersed cybernetics and with a penchant for psionics, it might make some sense for them to have a sort of equivalent to Mindwerks psynetic devices.

On one side, the Angel of Death's notes have something about how "her completely bionic shell prevents the use of psynetic devices", what to implies psynetics and full conversion do not go together, what might be an argument for Mechanoids not being able to develop their own, as their changes from biological life might be seen as even more extensive than full borg conversion.

However, the simple fact the Mechanoids as a people not only possess psionics, but are highly reliant on it, would seem to imply the "machinery in your guts messes up psionics/magic" hurdle is one they already have crossed - and in fact was crossed long ago back on their beginnings as a group.

So, i would like to hear people's thoughts on adding this new tool to the space toasters' arsenal - either for their own use, as gifts for any non-humanoids allies - like that doomsday cult in the sourcebook - a Mechanoid cell in Rifts Earth might find.

I can see it.

[SolCannibal]

What can i say, the quick mention of Robot Control's end in Merctown got me thinking to the importance of them - and Naruni Enterprises's sponsorship - in the moping up of the Mechanoid threat in the aftermath of their defeat, what makes me think if NE's retreat of Rifts Earth as a potential market could not lead to a vacuum of sorts and have consequences.

Ok, there's Archie and the Shemarrians to still keep any clean-up going, but at the same time with the birth of the Shemarrian nation, buildup to chalenge Atlantis and the Republicans, one might say he and Hagan have pies aplenty to distract themselves already, so mistakes could happen.

Or Hagan could have set up a deal with NE's representative to purchase at discount all the surplus merchandise they already had on Rifts Earth but would have problems to sell and was not worth the hassle of bringing back to the main branch.

And he and Archie have been happily to reverse-engineer all that stuff as they can and adapt to the Shemarrians ever since.

[The Beast]

A little tangent but somewhat pertinent - has anyone here ever heard of the Drolian Council?

They are described in passing in the backstory of Selkind the Metal Mage (one of the members of Tolkeen's Circle of Twelve, from Final Siege) as the ruling body a little-known race of ancient Techno-Wizards, who collectively serve as supernatural force which grants the shifter his powers of mind and body through Supernatural Link, along with the freakish Techno-Wizardry cybernetics that are the source of his title.

I ask myself if a Mechanoid horde or something along those lines could experiment with a similar role. I guess probably not, as supernatural links are, afaik, wholy in the province of magic, having never seen something like a psychic Witch or Shifter equivalent. But i would like to hear other people's opinions & musings on either idea.

- Mechanoids playing at the Alien Intelligence, possessing entity or evil spirit guide roles.
- or the possibility of psionic pacts/supernatural links and what might those entail.

The only Mechanoids who are allowed to take a magic OCC are the AbM Runners. The pursuit of magic is forbidden to the evil Mechanoids.

[SolCannibal]

A little tangent but somewhat pertinent - has anyone here ever heard of the Drolian Council?

They are described in passing in the backstory of Selkind the Metal Mage (one of the members of Tolkeen's Circle of Twelve, from Final Siege) as the ruling body a little-known race of ancient Techno-Wizards, who collectively serve as supernatural force which grants the shifter his powers of mind and body through Supernatural Link, along with the freakish Techno-Wizardry cybernetics that are the source of his title.

I ask myself if a Mechanoid horde or something along those lines could experiment with a similar role. I guess probably not, as supernatural links are, afaik, wholy in the province of magic, having never seen something like a psychic Witch or Shifter equivalent. But i would like to hear other people's opinions & musings on either idea.

- Mechanoids playing at the Alien Intelligence, possessing entity or evil spirit guide roles.
- or the possibility of psionic pacts/supernatural links and what might those entail.

The only Mechanoids who are allowed to take a magic OCC are the AbM Runners. The pursuit of magic is forbidden to the evil Mechanoids.

"Forbidden" as in the only ones that have shown the capacity to actually do so or forbidden as in the Toasters will EXTERMINATE any of their own that they catch doing any sort of invocations?
Just to be sure we are in the same note about your meaning.

[The Beast]

Why not both? It's likely the only ones with the capacity to learn magic would be the runners (they're the only AbM ones mentioned as having that capability), oracles, and/or overlords. However considering that it's implied that something in the old oracles caused them to start questioning what the Mechanoids were doing and led to the creation of the AbM versions, which in-turn led to the redesign of the oracles into their current version I doubt any of the evil ones would go against the grain and attempt learning magic on their own. And should they go forth and study it as part of an experiment there's the potential of eventually being seen as becoming too free-willed and thus a threat to their inherent superiority over humanoids.

Either way I don't recall SB2 making a statement other than that the pursuit of magic is forbidden.

[SolCannibal]

Why not both? It's likely the only ones with the capacity to learn magic would be the runners (they're the only AbM ones mentioned as having that capability), oracles, and/or overlords. However considering that it's implied that something in the old oracles caused them to start questioning what the Mechanoids were doing and led to the creation of the AbM versions, which in-turn led to the redesign of the oracles into their current version I doubt any of the evil ones would go against the grain and attempt learning magic on their own. And should they go forth and study it as part of an experiment there's the potential of eventually being seen as becoming too free-willed and thus a threat to their inherent superiority over humanoids.

Either way I don't recall SB2 making a statement other than that the pursuit of magic is forbidden.

As in, most don't even have the capacity for it mentally/biologically speaking - but let's forbid it with extreme prejudice anyway, because we don't know for sure and those who managed it so far have universally deviated from Collectivity Compliance, sort of way?

[The Beast]

More or less.

[SolCannibal]

As an aside, it strikes me of ironic in a weird way, that it's exactly the "goody" Mechanoids, the ones who actually identify with humanoids, the ones who seen to have lost all sense of artistry, having the most boring looking designs in the book, imho.

I find it curious that for all their sympathy, they seem to share even less of our sense of style/coolness than the average mechanoid.

[Rallan]

A little tangent but somewhat pertinent - has anyone here ever heard of the Drolian Council?

They are described in passing in the backstory of Selkind the Metal Mage (one of the members of Tolkeen's Circle of Twelve, from Final Siege) as the ruling body a little-known race of ancient Techno-Wizards, who collectively serve as supernatural force which grants the shifter his powers of mind and body through Supernatural Link, along with the freakish Techno-Wizardry cybernetics that are the source of his title.

I ask myself if a Mechanoid horde or something along those lines could experiment with a similar role. I guess probably not, as supernatural links are, afaik, wholy in the province of magic, having never seen something like a psychic Witch or Shifter equivalent. But i would like to hear other people's opinions & musings on either idea.

- Mechanoids playing at the Alien Intelligence, possessing entity or evil spirit guide roles.
- or the possibility of psionic pacts/supernatural links and what might those entail.

The only Mechanoids who are allowed to take a magic OCC are the AbM Runners. The pursuit of magic is forbidden to the evil Mechanoids.

To be honest that prohibition never really made much sense, because magic in Rifts (and Palladium's games in general) is, well... safe. It's not an evil corrupting force like it is in Warhammer 40K, and it's not unpredictable and dangerous like it was in Mage: the Ascension, it's just a bunch of powers that work every time and don't do anything bad to the user or his environment.

Like it makes sense that vanilla Mechanoids who've only recently arrived in the Rifts setting would initially be suspicious of magic since they're completely ignorant and for all they know it might be dangerous, but if they hang around in Rifts Earth and other suitably magical parts of the megaverse for long enough then there's no logical reason why they wouldn't eventually have a crack at it.

[SolCannibal]

A little tangent but somewhat pertinent - has anyone here ever heard of the Drolian Council?

They are described in passing in the backstory of Selkind the Metal Mage (one of the members of Tolkeen's Circle of Twelve, from Final Siege) as the ruling body a little-known race of ancient Techno-Wizards, who collectively serve as supernatural force which grants the shifter his powers of mind and body through Supernatural Link, along with the freakish Techno-Wizardry cybernetics that are the source of his title.

I ask myself if a Mechanoid horde or something along those lines could experiment with a similar role. I guess probably not, as supernatural links are, afaik, wholy in the province of magic, having never seen something like a psychic Witch or Shifter equivalent. But i would like to hear other people's opinions & musings on either idea.

- Mechanoids playing at the Alien Intelligence, possessing entity or evil spirit guide roles.
- or the possibility of psionic pacts/supernatural links and what might those entail.

The only Mechanoids who are allowed to take a magic OCC are the AbM Runners. The pursuit of magic is forbidden to the evil Mechanoids.

To be honest that prohibition never really made much sense, because magic in Rifts (and Palladium's games in general) is, well... safe. It's not an evil corrupting force like it is in Warhammer 40K, and it's not unpredictable and dangerous like it was in Mage: the Ascension, it's just a bunch of powers that work every time and don't do anything bad to the user or his environment.

Like it makes sense that vanilla Mechanoids who've only recently arrived in the Rifts setting would initially be suspicious of magic since they're completely ignorant and for all they know it might be dangerous, but if they hang around in Rifts Earth and other suitably magical parts of the megaverse for long enough then there's no logical reason why they wouldn't eventually have a crack at it.

Well, i have no strong opinion either way on that subject - yes, magic in the Megaverse (by RaW at least, fluff sometimes dances with it) is not on itself corruptive or dangerous. But that said, the Mechanoids are beings thaat come from a different outlook, one that in many aspects is quite insane for our standards, so overeaction on their part to certain behaviours we consider perfectly acceptable is possible, probable even.

Kissing in public would be seen risque, scandalous behaviour in the greater part of western society in 19th century Earth, in other parts of it as immoral or unnaceptable even, while simply alien or bizarre in (far from few) cultures that did not even have a concept of the act. What can all seem hilariously quaint for the average person in the 20th or 21st centuries - until you bring mouth kissing or same gender kissing (that doesn't have to be romantic/sexual, among russians even up to the 80s it was not, if memory tricks me not) in the equation.

Societies can be quite varied - and random - in how they define their preferences, morals and standards of behaviour among other things, so i can certainnly see the Doom Toasters getting nervous about spellcaster's degree of nonconformity, individuality or a number of things we would consider ridiculous or even monstrous for a society to want to set up controls over, for example.

And about the stories of Poseidon and Viracocha do bring up the idea that conflicts between Mechanoid hordes and supernatural beings have occured here and there across the Megaverse though details are lacking on how those groups interact with the greater whole of their collectivity.
But yeah, some hordes have certainly interacted with magic users and that could explain individual hordes - that might count as world-conquering armies and societies of their own, might be said - having learned a thing or two that lead to this kind of clamping down on magical studies.

I would say it's all a matter of how familiar with magic a GM wants a particular Mechanoid host to be. I could even see remnants of different hordes in one particular alien front - or more probably, different cells of the same failed invasion - developing quite divergent views of magic and how to deal with it due to differing experiences and even coming to blows due to an inability to solve their differences.

As an aside, i keep getting this image of Mechanoid telepathic colective as some sort of psionic social media but even more intrusive, personal and full of self-delusion sold as facts.
But with really brutal moderators to clamp down on flame wars and other disruptive acts.

[Shark_Force]

it might simply be that adopting magic (for personal use) requires a certain specific mindset. like, they might have no particular problem with using magic items or techno-wizardry devices (they're all psychic, so they should be able to), but to actually learn magic would require that they at least to some extent adopt certain beliefs, and while thinking differently is not a problem to the AbM faction, it sure isn't likely to go over well with the regular mechanoids

[SolCannibal]

it might simply be that adopting magic (for personal use) requires a certain specific mindset. like, they might have no particular problem with using magic items or techno-wizardry devices (they're all psychic, so they should be able to), but to actually learn magic would require that they at least to some extent adopt certain beliefs, and while thinking differently is not a problem to the AbM faction, it sure isn't likely to go over well with the regular mechanoids

Yes, pretty much that - it's good to remember that Mechanoids might frown upon as disruptive or corrupting on traits we barely even register as such like individualism or non-conformity, for example.