some love for the shotgun

[DealerOfDeth]

In my mind the most adaptable and useful firearm is the shotgun from hunting (from ducks to bucks as they say) home defense and military and the sheer variety of rounds it can fire.
They are even more useful in Rifts because of anti-vampire and other supernatural things that are vulnerable to specialty rounds. But there are not a lot of options for shotguns in RIfts there is the Bandit Big Bore shotguns The NG-11S and just a couple more. to remedy that i created more most are based off the NG-11S and to me seem the next ones they would produce.

Any suggestions and other ideas please add! i look forward to seeing other ideas you all have!

Thank you

NG shotgun’s

NG-11LS long shotgun

A long version of the NG-11S (page 73 WB 10, page 208 WB 33) this has increased its range but has not become as popular as the sawed-off the introduction of an optional stock that the barrels can be clipped into to make a small package for ease of storage in robots and transports this has helped but still sells only 1/3 as many as the NG-11S (the stock fits on original NG-11S)

NG-11LS
Weight: 4.5 lbs
Range: Shotgun shells, Slugs and Bandit Big Bore shells: 300 feet (91.5 M). Explosive shells: 400 feet (121.9 M). and APRJ shells: 500 feet (152 M)
Damage, Rate of Fire, Payload: Exactly the same as the NG-11S
Cost: 8000 credits
Notes: Shoulder stock 500 credits (+1 strike due to improved balance. +.5 lbs to weight)
Shell holder (attaches to stock and holds 6 shells) 50 credits.


NG-12S | NG-12LS

these are essentially the NG-11 made for the New west they are side by side barrel orientation and have dual triggers other than that they have all the same stats and price as the originals. They do have the option for solid non removable stock for 400 credits (+1 strike due to improved balance)

NG-15SD | NG-15SLD Shotgun Dual weapon

An experiment that took off in the NGR and Survivalists much to their surprise the D in it mean Dual but those in the NGR refer to it as a Drilling. It is a NG-12 with an under barrel blue green laser (the first models had a regular laser same damage and range) all come equipped with a solid stock (no +1 to stike due to the laser messing with the balance). E-clip is concealed inside the stock.

Stats for the shotgun part of the weapon is the same as the NG-11s and NG-11LS

NG-15DS | NG-15LSD
Weight: 5.5 Lbs | 6.5 Lbs
Range: Laser: 800 Feet | 1000 Feet
Mega-Damage: 2D4 | 2D4+2
ROF: each shot counts as one melee attack
Payload: 24 per standard E-clip, 38 with a long E-clip
Cost : 13,000 Credits| 15,000 credits

NG-18PS | NG-18PSL Pump Shotgun

A shotgun designed for military and security who wanted an inexpensive weapon for Close Quarters Battle they also wanted more ammo capacity. NG engineers had to go thru several designs and came up with a pump action design that was reliable. The shotgun comes with a bayonet lug and heat guard (25 MDC) to assist with CQB and is reinforced enough to handle the punishment of being used as a club even by those with robotic or supernatural strength.

Range for this weapon is the same as for the NG-11S and the NG-11LS

NG-18PS | NG-18PSL

Weight: 6 Lbs | 7 Lbs
Mega-Damage: Can only fire single rounds no double blasts
ROF: Each shot counts as one melee attack
Payload: 4 shots | 6 shots 2 shots can be reloaded per melee action
Cost: 14000 credits | 16000 credits

Notes: +1 to Parry due to armored heat shield.
Solid stock (Non Removable) is 600 credits additional charge (+1 to strike for balance)
a removable folding stock is 500 credits (to flimsy for bonuses but has storage for 6 rounds built in).
Bayonet lug can accommodate most small to medium blades (short sword max) the adapter is 200 credits.
An extended tube mag is available with 2 additional rounds costs 2000 credits.

All availability is up to GM discretion

(I believe this all to be within the allowed Forum rules but if not please let me know and i will change them)

[RockJock]

There are a few more shotguns, or shotgun like guns out there. South America 2 has the Equalizer Combat Shotgun, Triax has the TX-16 and TX-5 Pumps in Triax one, and several weapons on Triax 2, FQ gives us the Q4-44 Drummer, and I'm sure there are more out there.

[eliakon]

Honestly... for shotguns I find the easiest route is to use the reason they are so loved.
Instead of going down the palladium weapon rabbit hole and making up new shells for every single shotgun they have (with a few unfortunate exceptions) simply made 'shotgun shells'
Which means that we now have 40+ fully interchangeable unique rounds that can be used in any shotgun.
This isn't counting the dozen or so weapon locked/possibly locked rounds like the Equalizer, Q4-44, Big Bore, Triax Pump rounds or the like.

Nor is that counting all the specialty substances you can make a shell out of!
The reason everyone loves shotguns is that they are so generic. making dozens of new highly specialized ones that use specialized ammunition that is specific to one specific shotgun in many ways negates the charm that attracts so many to the shotgun in the first place... that being that they are the swiss army knife of guns and can be loaded with what ever shell you need for the mission at hand.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Honestly... for shotguns I find the easiest route is to use the reason they are so loved.
Instead of going down the palladium weapon rabbit hole and making up new shells for every single shotgun they have (with a few unfortunate exceptions) simply made 'shotgun shells'
Which means that we now have 40+ fully interchangeable unique rounds that can be used in any shotgun.

I agree with this, for the most part.

This isn't counting the dozen or so weapon locked/possibly locked rounds like the Equalizer, Q4-44, Big Bore, Triax Pump rounds or the like.

I'd say the Equalizer, Big Bore, and Triax Pump rounds are only "incompatible" with most shotguns because they are likely not a standard 12-gauge barrel. The Equalizer and Big Bore are probably bigger (10 gauge) and the Triax Pump rounds are probably smaller (16ga) and dont use a standard shotgun-style shell when fired (might even be 20ga, since it fits easily in a pistol) The Q4-44 doesn't make mention of what size it is, but doesn't make any mention of it being particularly large (unlike the Big Bore & Equalizer)... so id err on it being 12ga. You could probably make a sabot to fire Pump Rounds from a 12ga fairly easily. You could probably fire Big Bore and Equalizer rounds just fine out of a 10ga Shotgun (and maybe that utterly insane variable-bore assault rifle in Black Market).

Nor is that counting all the specialty substances you can make a shell out of!
The reason everyone loves shotguns is that they are so generic. making dozens of new highly specialized ones that use specialized ammunition that is specific to one specific shotgun in many ways negates the charm that attracts so many to the shotgun in the first place... that being that they are the swiss army knife of guns and can be loaded with what ever shell you need for the mission at hand.

And that they are stone simple and you dont have to have special stats for 10 guns, since shotguns are mostly exactly as capable as the others.

[dreicunan]

Honestly... for shotguns I find the easiest route is to use the reason they are so loved.
Instead of going down the palladium weapon rabbit hole and making up new shells for every single shotgun they have (with a few unfortunate exceptions) simply made 'shotgun shells'
Which means that we now have 40+ fully interchangeable unique rounds that can be used in any shotgun.

I agree with this, for the most part.

This isn't counting the dozen or so weapon locked/possibly locked rounds like the Equalizer, Q4-44, Big Bore, Triax Pump rounds or the like.

I'd say the Equalizer, Big Bore, and Triax Pump rounds are only "incompatible" with most shotguns because they are likely not a standard 12-gauge barrel. The Equalizer and Big Bore are probably bigger (10 gauge) and the Triax Pump rounds are probably smaller (16ga) and dont use a standard shotgun-style shell when fired (might even be 20ga, since it fits easily in a pistol) The Q4-44 doesn't make mention of what size it is, but doesn't make any mention of it being particularly large (unlike the Big Bore & Equalizer)... so id err on it being 12ga. You could probably make a sabot to fire Pump Rounds from a 12ga fairly easily. You could probably fire Big Bore and Equalizer rounds just fine out of a 10ga Shotgun (and maybe that utterly insane variable-bore assault rifle in Black Market).

Nor is that counting all the specialty substances you can make a shell out of!
The reason everyone loves shotguns is that they are so generic. making dozens of new highly specialized ones that use specialized ammunition that is specific to one specific shotgun in many ways negates the charm that attracts so many to the shotgun in the first place... that being that they are the swiss army knife of guns and can be loaded with what ever shell you need for the mission at hand.

And that they are stone simple and you dont have to have special stats for 10 guns, since shotguns are mostly exactly as capable as the others.

It most definitely can. The fluff for it is that the weapon began as a variable breach and barrel system to research ways to increase the range of BigBore weapons without fabricating an entirely new weapon every time, and then a "head honcho" saw it in action and told the engineers to find a way to work that into the actual weapon. "The final design of the variable breech assault rifle allows it to use BigBore revolver rounds, BigBore shotgun rounds, conventional S.D.C. shotgun shells, Triax pump rounds and even conventional S.D.C. rifle rounds of various caliber sizes, as well as wooden and silver shotgun shells designed for fighting vampires and the supernatural."

In my re-imagined version of the Magebane class, that weapon would be their holy grail. Knocking mages on their butts, halving their bonuses, and taking away both any initiative they might have had AND a melee action from 1000 ft away is just way too good to pass up, especially when, rules as written, you can use a 45 round/shell magazine for any of the ammunition it takes. To paraphrase Minsc: "Stun-locking for goodness!"

In all honesty, any use of of the BigBore Shotgun shells en masse against opponents is a good way to trivialize encounters with human-sized opponents in anything less than power armor, and even those in power armor just get a +6 to negate the -6 to save vs knockdown the shotgun shells confer (Unless you are using the BigBore "Fire Hose" SAW and firing 12 round bursts, which negates bonuses to save against knockdown).

[eliakon]

Spoiler:

Honestly... for shotguns I find the easiest route is to use the reason they are so loved.
Instead of going down the palladium weapon rabbit hole and making up new shells for every single shotgun they have (with a few unfortunate exceptions) simply made 'shotgun shells'
Which means that we now have 40+ fully interchangeable unique rounds that can be used in any shotgun.

I agree with this, for the most part.

This isn't counting the dozen or so weapon locked/possibly locked rounds like the Equalizer, Q4-44, Big Bore, Triax Pump rounds or the like.

I'd say the Equalizer, Big Bore, and Triax Pump rounds are only "incompatible" with most shotguns because they are likely not a standard 12-gauge barrel. The Equalizer and Big Bore are probably bigger (10 gauge) and the Triax Pump rounds are probably smaller (16ga) and dont use a standard shotgun-style shell when fired (might even be 20ga, since it fits easily in a pistol) The Q4-44 doesn't make mention of what size it is, but doesn't make any mention of it being particularly large (unlike the Big Bore & Equalizer)... so id err on it being 12ga. You could probably make a sabot to fire Pump Rounds from a 12ga fairly easily. You could probably fire Big Bore and Equalizer rounds just fine out of a 10ga Shotgun (and maybe that utterly insane variable-bore assault rifle in Black Market).

Nor is that counting all the specialty substances you can make a shell out of!
The reason everyone loves shotguns is that they are so generic. making dozens of new highly specialized ones that use specialized ammunition that is specific to one specific shotgun in many ways negates the charm that attracts so many to the shotgun in the first place... that being that they are the swiss army knife of guns and can be loaded with what ever shell you need for the mission at hand.

And that they are stone simple and you dont have to have special stats for 10 guns, since shotguns are mostly exactly as capable as the others.

It most definitely can. The fluff for it is that the weapon began as a variable breach and barrel system to research ways to increase the range of BigBore weapons without fabricating an entirely new weapon every time, and then a "head honcho" saw it in action and told the engineers to find a way to work that into the actual weapon. "The final design of the variable breech assault rifle allows it to use BigBore revolver rounds, BigBore shotgun rounds, conventional S.D.C. shotgun shells, Triax pump rounds and even conventional S.D.C. rifle rounds of various caliber sizes, as well as wooden and silver shotgun shells designed for fighting vampires and the supernatural."

In my re-imagined version of the Magebane class, that weapon would be their holy grail. Knocking mages on their butts, halving their bonuses, and taking away both any initiative they might have had AND a melee action from 1000 ft away is just way too good to pass up, especially when, rules as written, you can use a 45 round/shell magazine for any of the ammunition it takes. To paraphrase Minsc: "Stun-locking for goodness!"

In all honesty, any use of of the BigBore Shotgun shells en masse against opponents is a good way to trivialize encounters with human-sized opponents in anything less than power armor, and even those in power armor just get a +6 to negate the -6 to save vs knockdown the shotgun shells confer (Unless you are using the BigBore "Fire Hose" SAW and firing 12 round bursts, which negates bonuses to save against knockdown).

Yeah, this is one of the many reasons why I looked at that abomination and said "nope" and deleted it from my table. (the other of course is how the **** you have a variable bore, variable breach weapon in the first place)

[DealerOfDeth]

I love shotguns for their "Swiss army knife" ability

Now on page WB33 page 208 it says of the NG-11S ".60 caliber smoothbore fires normal shotgun shells, explosive
versions, ramjets and even Bandito’s signature BigBore ammo."

Oddly enough this is the wrong caliber for a 12 gauge shotgun my research shows that it is .72 to .69 caliber for a 12 gauge, so this and the BigBore actually smaller than 12 gauge but ill take that as RPG magic.

The Equalizer shotgun just says 16MM explosive round that might be length of the explosive? again RPG magic.

Would that also mean that the Bandit BigBore and Equalizer Shotguns would be able to shoot the NG-11S explosive and Ramjet rounds?

i was also looking for more shotguns for North America, Triax and south america weapons would be rare. Also i was looking at traditional shotguns.

thoughts on the stock? giving some a +1 to strike i wanted a advantage for having one but not too big of a advantage.

The pump shotgun is my homage to the WW1 Trench shotgun i figured a short sword would be the equivalent of the 17" bayonet on it!

[dreicunan]

Yeah, this is one of the many reasons why I looked at that abomination and said "nope" and deleted it from my table. (the other of course is how the **** you have a variable bore, variable breach weapon in the first place)

SCIENCE!

[Axelmania]

Perhaps the flexibility of the shotguns has led to their popularity as a deterrant. Intelligent predators might know that any shotgun might contain an APRJ round capable of doing MD (even if it just happens to only have SDC rounds for hunting duck) and steer clear of anyone they see with one.

Not so good against stupid predators who probably don't even understand what guns are and wouldn't even be deterred by a boomgun until it fired.

[taalismn]

Yeah, this is one of the many reasons why I looked at that abomination and said "nope" and deleted it from my table. (the other of course is how the **** you have a variable bore, variable breach weapon in the first place)

SCIENCE!

I used a very high-tech multi-layer 'Chinese finger' sleeve of MDC composite fiber with enough precise tolerance to prevent the back/blow-out of propellant cases except through the bore.
Yeah, it's rubber science, but it's an explanation of sorts.

[DD The Shmey]

Don't forget the plethora of prerifts shotgun designs. The Model 3000 police Smith & Wesson Shotgun is listed in the "Conventional Weapons" section of the RMB. It is very easy to adapt any number of conventional shot gun models that we have in the real world using these stats, and just vary the payload, weight, and range a little as needed. Damage should be roughly the same.

I always assumed that these conventional weapons were littered all over the place in Rifts.

[dreicunan]

I always assumed that these conventional weapons were littered all over the place in Rifts.

That seems to have been Kevin S's assumption as well. Issues like this continually crop up in the "is canon correct about distribution of mega-damage weapons?" debates (and if anyone wants to have another debate, a new thread is the place to do it). While Palladium has published things like the compendium of modern weapons, the RUE has a bunch of information about SDC weapons in the Modern Weapon Proficiency section. Rifts Mercenaries told us point blank that SDC weapons are common, and Merc Ops reports a "tremendous demand" for SDC weapons in North America which Golden Age Weaponsmiths helps to meet, being the second leading producer of new SDC weapons behind Wellington Industries. It also gives a bunch of SDC weapon information (some of which contradicts RUE, like shotgun ranges).

[rem1093]

Yeah, this is one of the many reasons why I looked at that abomination and said "nope" and deleted it from my table. (the other of course is how the **** you have a variable bore, variable breach weapon in the first place)[/quote]

The funny thing is something like this already exists in the real world. Its called the War Lock Multiple Caliber system.
https://frontiertactical.com/war-lock-m ... er-system/

As for why i thought shotguns are not as used as much you would think, I put that down as a range thing. Even though I think that they could be the be the best anti supernatural weapon. And thats how we use them.

[eliakon]

Yeah, this is one of the many reasons why I looked at that abomination and said "nope" and deleted it from my table. (the other of course is how the **** you have a variable bore, variable breach weapon in the first place)

The funny thing is something like this already exists in the real world. Its called the War Lock Multiple Caliber system.
https://frontiertactical.com/war-lock-m ... er-system/

Yes I am aware of that system. It though isn't anything even remotely like this rifle.
A plug and play system where you manually refit components as needed with tools is a FAR cry from a weapon that automatically changes on the fly to any round you put in it.

As for why i thought shotguns are not as used as much you would think, I put that down as a range thing. Even though I think that they could be the be the best anti supernatural weapon. And thats how we use them.

I find range to be a pretty unconvincing argument.
Range for weapons in this game are uniformly pathetic, which tells me that a 300' range gun isn't really all that bad. Especially for the chance to do AoE damage which is super rare in firearms. I mean seriously, there are not a lot of AoE options outside of rockets/grenades/missiles... you have Shotguns, Exploding Rounds, Flamethrowers a few really exotic snowflakes and the new line of 'ion shotguns'.

[Orin J.]

Range for weapons in this game are uniformly pathetic, which tells me that a 300' range gun isn't really all that bad. Especially for the chance to do AoE damage which is super rare in firearms.

i dunno, range is pretty good once you factor in visual range. unless you'd out on open plains and your team remembered to bring binoculars odds are whatever you might fight is well within laser range.

then again, the few times i've managed to play rifts in the past they all heard about the time the giant robot got missile'd to death. (but not that the pilot put "tried to off the emperor and lived to tell about it" in his background)

[Hotrod]

Reloading is a thing in real life. Perhaps it could be in Rifts, too?

[dreicunan]

WI-GL8 from Merc Ops just lists 800 ft as a range, presumably for both "large bore" shotgun shells and for grenades. It doesn't mention Big Bore shells but does mention Triax pump ammunition as being an option. I'd personally rule that it can also shoot the big bore shotgun shells.

[RockJock]

This sort of conversation has come up a couple of times over the years. I remember it in regards to big Bore and Triax Pump pistols, but I'm guessing there are several more threads out there.

My take is that North America, if not the world has just a handful of shotgun shell sizes. I limit it to 12 gauge and say a .410 or 20 gauge. The standard BB rounds fit these two sizes, and Triax Pump rounds are only the smaller size. A heavy duty MDC 12 gauge side by side has no problem firing SDC shells, 12 gauge BBs, while a MDC 20 gauge side by side could hande SDC shells, smaller BBs and various Triax Pump Rounds. SDC guns firing MDC shots is an obvious problem, and I can see how something like the Equalizer from South America could have problems cycling shells that were not made for the gun (first shot might work, but won't cycle).

Just my two cents.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

SDC guns firing MDC shots is an obvious problem,

Uh... why? None of the MDC-damage shotgun shells except for possibly the new ones from Triax 2 rely on any MDC-only acceleration in the barrel or anything. They all inflict MDC because of something that happens AFTER they leave the barrel. As far as the Shotgun shell itself is concerned, theyre just shotgun shells.

The Ramjet discards the shotgun shell "sabot" and THEN accelerates to rail-gun-like speeds. The explosive rounds are just that - explosive rounds. The only ones that i'd have an issue with (potentially) would be the new rounds listed for the shotgun in Triax 2 merely because it doesnt say WHY they inflict MD (they arent explosive, and aren't called out as Ramjets).

None of that applies to Pump Rounds, OFC (as we dont know what the motive force there is and they have a pretty high range), or BB Shotgun shells (as, again, we dont know what their motive force is) - just the "regular" explosive and ramjet style shotgun rounds. (Not that in my game, the BB issue matters as that entire line of guns and ammo gets cut because i think its absurd cheese and dumb as all get out).

Those should all fire from an SDC shotgun no problem.

and I can see how something like the Equalizer from South America could have problems cycling shells that were not made for the gun (first shot might work, but won't cycle).

Just my two cents.

Id agree that there probably aren't a billion types of shotgun ronds in NA/Rifts earth, but i'd add 10-gauge to that list. There are a LOT of common-use SDC rounds that are 10-gauge that the 12 gauge variant just doesn't cut it.

Otherwise, i tend to agree (and to me, the Equalizer from south America gets its extra damage from most likely being a 10-gauge, so it fires a larger shell that inflicts more damage because of being able to pack in more explosive).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Heh, i looked up the Equalizer.

It either has a variable bore/chamber or its "native" rounds use 12ga Sabots.

Because it is stated that it can fire either "Traditional 12ga shotgun shells" (So it COULD fire all NA ramjet and explosive rounds, as well as likely BB rounds), OR it has its own line of 16mm ammunition.

16mm is 20ga.

... so either its got a variable bore or its unique ammo line is all in 12ga sabots. Which wouldn't be that expensive, really, and would be totally worth it just for making the gun versatile enough to also fire 12ga shots. Why you wouldn't just make your rounds 12ga, though, i dont know. Maybe there's some Ballistic need to make them 16mm.

[RockJock]

Colonel,

I just used two sizes because I don't want to keep track of more sizes. 12ga, 10ga, 20ga would work just fine.

No reason the SDC guns would automatically have issues with MDC shells. I just went on the basis that an SDC built was built to be much weaker, and would be like shooting modern rounds out of old guns. Doable, but could be dangerous.

I would have zero problem playing in a game ruled your way vs mine. I would LOVE for it to be written similar to either of us.

[Prole]

If we're talking shotguns, is this a good time to showoff my range ammo for the Big Bores and my aftermarket support for shotguns?

Patch For WI ASG-12G.

BTW, OP, someone beat you to the double barrel with stock, though I think the idea you came up with is going to sell better. http://sirtenzan.tripod.com/RIFTS/sg1.html

[Hotrod]

Shotguns are the second-most versatile weapons in the game. I tried to capture a lot of that versatility when I made my Wilderness Scout NPC Generator a while back, though there's certainly plenty more than what I fit in.

Bows are still the kings of versatility though, thanks to the magic effects you can get with arrows.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Shotguns are the second-most versatile weapons in the game. I tried to capture a lot of that versatility when I made my Wilderness Scout NPC Generator a while back, though there's certainly plenty more than what I fit in.

Bows are still the kings of versatility though, thanks to the magic effects you can get with arrows.

I would think that any of the TW Grenade effects would be possible in shotgun shells.

[Curbludgeon]

I'd love to see some TW shells. At a guess, one would install any diamonds or other expensive stones into the gun itself, which would empower the bullets while leaving quartz and the like within the shell. I'd even be cool with changing up the "canon" a bit, and having powdered minerals distributed within a load to help describe a few cloud-based effects.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I'd love to see some TW shells. At a guess, one would install any diamonds or other expensive stones into the gun itself, which would empower the bullets while leaving quartz and the like within the shell. I'd even be cool with changing up the "canon" a bit, and having powdered minerals distributed within a load to help describe a few cloud-based effects.

I dont really think it needs to be that complicated, TBH.

There's not a giant difference in the actual "payload" capacity of 12ga Shotgun Shells and most hand grenades (rifle launched/grenade launcher launched grenades being a different animal entirely), so really, it should work just like a TW Grenade, and you should be able to do any TW Grenade as a TW Shot Shell.