Switching to MDC

[slade the sniper]

Since a lot of police forces are now equipped with armored vehicles, and modern military gear is equipped with very heavy armor and other goodies (reactive armor, active armor systems, etc.) have you switched/added a lot of MDC equipment to confront PCs?

If so, has it worked out well?

If not, would you?

-STS

[RockJock]

I keep MDC out of my HU. There are elements in my game that are basically MDC (high SDC with a high AR), but they are not all that common. I'm coming closer and closer to running Rifts as an SDC/AR system to get rid of crossing over and special case issues.

One of the big problems with SDC/AR and MDC is how do deal with something like a tank. WIth SDC you can have a MBT with high SDC, and a high AR, plus a note explaining invulnerability to certain classes of weapons with PV and all factored in. This allows an Abrams to really be "invulnerable" to a kid with a rock, or a .38 pistol. If the tank is treated as MDC, then any MDC weapon can eventually cut it apart. Yes, you can easily add a note saying no damage under X does no real damage to the MDC tank, but that adds another layer of complication.

The SDC/AR/PV system is already in place and tends to need less add ons and explanations then MDC. If you go MDC where do you draw a line? In my version of HU at least it is hard enough for a character to stay alive if they don't have big brick powers. If I went full MDC everyone would need to be in MDC armor, or die immediately. Basically everything would be hitting with the equal of 100s of SDC for any attack. As it is now I tend to bring in SDC tech to mitigate damage(impack suits to survive a super punch for example). And the poor, poor bystanders.

Sorry for the insomnia ramblings lol.

[The Beast]

I keep MDC out of my HU...

That's what works best.

[zerombr]

If I went full MDC everyone would need to be in MDC armor, or die immediately.

There it is, my problem with Rifts.


I think the easiest way to solve the MDC problem is like so.


Instead of MD armor, consider all armor of this quality to have Natural A.R.

For MD Weapons, consider them able to ignore Natural A.R., meaning that if they hit the armor, they do damage, it never bounces off.

The end.

[Vincent Takeda]

I agree. One of my favorite things about HU is the absence of mdc. It is a good idea executed poorly.

[Glistam]

My typical HU world is on the cusp of MDC. It can be found in very limited quantities, and in small values, but it's there. This is tangentially relevant, and it seemed like a fun way to introduce M.D.C. into Heroes Unlimited Earth.

[RockJock]

There are items that are defacto MDC in HU, for example the Super Soldier's shield with a AR of 19, and only taking damage when targeted.

[Daniel Stoker]

Yeah, add me to the "No MDC in my HU game" list. A high AR and SDC can mimic it enough for super crazy tough items like giant robots or kaiju that I really don't see the need for it.


Daniel Stoker

[Axelmania]

I think the problem with relying on natural AR is that the 1d4 punch with +10 to strike may whittle it down faster than the 2d4 weapon with +5 to strike.

[zerombr]

I think the problem with relying on natural AR is that the 1d4 punch with +10 to strike may whittle it down faster than the 2d4 weapon with +5 to strike.

I keep forgetting people play with different rules than I. In my game, Natural AR is natural die roll dependent.

However let's address your concern.


Yeah, that's going to happen, and here's why. +10 to Strike is actually supposed to be a really big deal! That means you've either got some levels underneath your belt with +2-4 to Strike, and a P.P. of 26 or so. OR you have a P.P. of 30, and bonuses atop that.

A Physical Prowess of 30 is insanely powerful, so yes, it DOES finish the job faster than a guy who is taking aimed shots with a 2D4 firearm. It /should/ do it faster. That's a legendary attribute at work!

[slade the sniper]

I see your point and I agree with it, but I am kinda lost on the execution.

So, for all who are interested, could you give me your versions (AR/SDC) of the following things:

WWII era M4 Sherman
WWII era Tiger I tank
late 80's
Current M1A2 SEP with Trophy active protection system

M113 APC
BMP-3

P-51 Mustang
F-4 Phantom
MIG-25
F-22 Raptor

AH-64D Apache
MI-24 HIND-D

The reason I ask is that main book vehicle builds are great for 80's era stuff, but 40 years later...it is kinda underwhelming for state of the art stuff. The stuff in Rifter 50/51 doesn't help as that is all MDC builds. The Golden Age Weaponsmith stuff is OK (in Rifts Mercenaries, pg 95) but that is just SDC with no AR.

Anyway, just looking for more input so I can understand how y'all do it.

-STS

[zerombr]

are you referring to me or another poster?

Here's the execution for MD conversion for me.


Normally.....

I'm shooting...eh a car, Car's got AR 13. 200 SDC

I roll a 6+3 = 9. I do no damage to the car, because the car has natural A.R.

I roll a 14+3 = 17. I deal damage to its 200 SDC.


Here's how I'd change up MDC. MDC equivalent items, instead of dealing 100 SDC = 1 MD, they just automatically break natural AR.

The car by these rules would be the equivalent of an MD item, though not nearly as durable as a tank. Same stats. AR 13, 200 SDC

I roll a 6+3 = 9. I deal damage to the car's 200 SDC.

I roll a 14+3 = 17. I deal damage to the car's 200 SDC.


What this means is low powered weapons like a pistol, still have that chance to bounce off of the car's AR, but the MDC equivalent items do not.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Yeah, add me to the "No MDC in my HU game" list. A high AR and SDC can mimic it enough for super crazy tough items like giant robots or kaiju that I really don't see the need for it.


Daniel Stoker

Agreed. MDC is unnecessary and makes it hard to play a low powered game.

[slade the sniper]

are you referring to me or another poster?

What this means is low powered weapons like a pistol, still have that chance to bounce off of the car's AR, but the MDC equivalent items do not.

I was actually referring to anyone who would answer.
I see how you execute this, and it certainly seems like a good way of blending the two.

Agreed. MDC is unnecessary and makes it hard to play a low powered game.

Is HU a low powered game, or do you mean a low powered game of HU?

-STS

[zerombr]

I was actually referring to anyone who would answer.
I see how you execute this, and it certainly seems like a good way of blending the two.

I am starting to think this is the only way to play

Is HU a low powered game, or do you mean a low powered game of HU?

-STS

I'm not him but the latter most likely. Depending on what you pick, some HU chars can get kinda ridiculous

[slade the sniper]

I am starting to think this is the only way to play

After playing since '89 (and I started gaming with Palladium Books) I have never heard of this.

-STS

[zerombr]

thats because I made it up, since I hate MDC

[Stone Gargoyle]

Agreed. MDC is unnecessary and makes it hard to play a low powered game.

Is HU a low powered game, or do you mean a low powered game of HU?

-STS

A low powered game where people can do damage regardless of how much armor something has. MDC is only affected by MDC weapons so that you have to up the power level by including them.

[slade the sniper]

thats because I made it up, since I hate MDC

Ah, ok. Now I feel dumb.

Agreed. MDC is unnecessary and makes it hard to play a low powered game.

Is HU a low powered game, or do you mean a low powered game of HU?

-STS

A low powered game where people can do damage regardless of how much armor something has. MDC is only affected by MDC weapons so that you have to up the power level by including them.

And, that makes sense. I pretty much avoid that issue by making MDC only available via specific sources at much higher levels, or unless you go onto high intensity battlefields with armored vehicles and lots of artillery.

-STS

[RockJock]

Does anyone ever use penetration value separate from strikes? For example, the punch doing 1d4 may have a high strike role, but with no Penetration Value it won't do anything to a Abrams.

[Warshield73]

Does anyone ever use penetration value separate from strikes? For example, the punch doing 1d4 may have a high strike role, but with no Penetration Value it won't do anything to a Abrams.

I use PV as a bonus/penalty to the AR roll. If your weapon is a lower PV than the armor would require than I add a penalty to the strike roll just in terms of the AR. The bonus/penalty is the PV difference times 2.

So weapon is PV of 3, the armor requires a PV of 5 so the penalty would be -4 to the AR. Or if it is reverse, PV is 2 points higher than needed, than it would be +4 to the AR roll.

Truthfully I almost never like RPG damage systems. They either lack realism or make it too difficult on the players. The only damage system I have ever really liked is the old Westend Star Wars game with weapons and armor on a strength scale that would either scale up or reduce damage depending on how it compares. This was the best damage system I ever saw but I don't think it would work with magic and supernatural.

[zerombr]

I don't use it. Its yet another thing that'd complicate things. I'd just say 'you're not hurting a tank'

[Zer0 Kay]

If N&S is part of your HU world then it is already MDC. The way you handle tanks with MDC is that ALL small arms in HU are still SDC weapons so they wouldnt be able to do MDC unless it did 100 SDC in a single hit. While all MDC weapons. 30 mm and above would cause damage to a tank to some degree. That was how MDC started in RT 1e and that's how I still run it. It wasn't until RT:SC 1e that side arms started doing MD. An AT AP round like the APFSDS just does more damage than a HE round. APCs don't have MDC they have high SDC high AP and that is why .50 cal sniper rifles are able to penitrate it even though they only do SDC. In this way there is the neigh invulnerable MBTs only harmed by AT weapons or MASSIVE amounts of SDC focused single attacks (read TNT, C4, etc... NOT .50 cal machinegun fire).

[Zer0 Kay]

Oh N&S is an MDC world because it has a he vehicle stopper. They should have made MBTs MDC also.