Why the Zentraedi didn't mention the Invid.

[Robroy]

How do you explain it in your games? I go with the "thought they were defeated" line of reasoning. While they were actually building up their forces. That way it explains the shock and surprise of finding them at Tirol.

[Jefffar]

There were more than 5 million ships in the Zentraedi fleet.

When those suddenly disappeared over earth, the forces keeping the Invid and dozens of other inconsequential minor threats to the Robotech Empire in check were gone. The Invid just capitalized firstest, fastest and bestest.

Kinda like how nobody cared about the Huns when they were just another ragged tribe of barbarians on the borders of the Roman Empire.

[taalismn]

Works for me.
The idea also opens the door for dozens of other nasty little threats who can now explode out onto the galactic stage now that the Masters are out of the way.
And, while the Invid Regent may have focused his ire on the Tirolians, he in turn may have taken a rather more aggressive attitude towards others who were a threat to his empire-building. Who knows what, in turn, he may have exterminated, released from Tirolian containment, or provoked into killing rage?

[glitterboy2098]

I am of the opinion that the Invid and the zentraedi had not fought in a long time. that basically, after the Masters used the zentraedi to destroy Optera, the Invid had gone into hiding to rebuild their strength, and the zentraedi's main role was conquest of new worlds for the empire, and being the sledgehammer used to scare already conquered worlds into staying in line.

the Invid became a concern when the bulk of the zentraedi were ordered out of the Empire to search for the SDF-1, which left the comparatively weaker Tirolian Legions as the Empire's main defenders. that is when the Invid struck and started grabbing worlds from the Master's empire.

the master's abandoning the empire shortly before the discovery of earth by the zentraedi* just accelerated the fall of the empire, resulting in the conditions the UEEF found. had the master's been successful in getting the protoculture factory the 2nd war, they probably would have used that and the resources of the Sol system to build up a new armada and army to retake the empire from the invid.



*remember, when the masters first appear in the show, they are already in their ships and away from the empire. presumably conducting their own search, or keeping themselves equidistant between zent armada and the empire, or something of the sort.

[drewkitty ~..~]

theories ....

This subject is covered by the RT novels. The Zentraedi and the Invid seam to have been fighting each other to a stand still till the Zentraedi were re-tasked to finding the Macross (Zor's ship) once it was sent of on automatics to earth. It was then that Master's tirolian forces that took over maintaining the core worlds of their empire till earth was found. During this time The Regent was concurring the territory of the empire that the zentraedi were patrolling but fell into the same delimma as the masters...they were running out of Protoculture too. and after the Masters left gathered what forces they had left and secured the inner empire's local group of planets; after the Masters left; before finally concerning Tirol.

Things then go downhill for The Regent when The Regess up and leaves with half the invid race to find earth.

Disclaimer: I have not read the RT novels in over a decade, so might of gotten things incorrect.

[glitterboy2098]

the novels are not canon though. from the show and canon comics, there is nothing to indicate the zentraedi have fought the invid. at all.

even the idea the zentraedi destroyed optera is merely supposition on my part, though it makes a degree of sense, IMO. but the world destruction shown in the zent archive footage in macross saga could have been any world.. presumably the masters would use "we'll obliterate you from orbit" as a final threat to prevent revolts, the way the Galactic Empire in Star Wars planned to use the Deathstar's, or the Garmillas Empire in Yamato 2199 was shown to do.

[drewkitty ~..~]

the novels are not canon though. from the show and canon comics, there is nothing to indicate the zentraedi have fought the invid. at all.
...snip

Since everybody else was presenting their theories....speculations. I could present what I did.
There was a Graphic Novel back when RT was new'ish; Genisis I think it was called; that delved into the life of Zor and how him developing bio-power plants and how he came to be able to make PC. It showed the zentraedi's harvesting of Optera, and the attack of the Invid that killed Zor.

Yes, none of the novels are in current canon...and I didn't present it as such.

[Robroy]

the novels are not canon though. from the show and canon comics, there is nothing to indicate the zentraedi have fought the invid. at all.
...snip

Since everybody else was presenting their theories....speculations. I could present what I did.
There was a Graphic Novel back when RT was new'ish; Genisis I think it was called; that delved into the life of Zor and how him developing bio-power plants and how he came to be able to make PC. It showed the zentraedi's harvesting of Optera, and the attack of the Invid that killed Zor.

Yes, none of the novels are in current canon...and I didn't present it as such.

The Graphic Novel, that brings back memories. Even then the attacks by the Invid seen to surprise the Zentraedi. In the shows the only ones that seen to hammer in the threat the Invid pose is the Masters, were they not telling the Zentraedi everything?

[taalismn]

The bombardment of Optera could have been carried out only by specialized Zentreadi formations and/or troops who were mindwiped afterwards to hide any information about the Flowers of Life that were stolen, and their relationship to Protoculture.
Since the Invid threat was considered then to be minor, if not null and void, subsequent cannonfodder rank and file Zentraedi were not briefed on the Invid as viable threats, until much later.

[ShadowLogan]

This presumes the Zentreadi (as a whole) even new about the Invid. Also keep in mind, in one of the canon comics (Invasion I want to say) the Invid evolutionary pace for UEEF contact is stated to be very rapid, anything the Zentreadi had might have been out of date (10+ year build up for the UEEF).

There isn't much information within the show on just who the Zentreadi actually had to deal with regularly (DoZ, but possibly Zent. "off shoots" Gloval and Leonard essentially establish as possibilities) or even out there (we know other "micronian" worlds exist, either human or humanoid, and I'd even poist that the Zentreadi size might require similar giant size races out there.).

[glitterboy2098]

The bombardment of Optera could have been carried out only by specialized Zentreadi formations and/or troops who were mindwiped afterwards to hide any information about the Flowers of Life that were stolen, and their relationship to Protoculture.
Since the Invid threat was considered then to be minor, if not null and void, subsequent cannonfodder rank and file Zentraedi were not briefed on the Invid as viable threats, until much later.

or could have been done by the master's non-Zentraedi forces. if ~14 city ships and the compliments, while running on near empty in terms of PC, can very nearly wipe out earth, a fully powered Master's fleet could have been a terrifying power.

This presumes the Zentraedi (as a whole) even new about the Invid. Also keep in mind, in one of the canon comics (Invasion I want to say) the Invid evolutionary pace for UEEF contact is stated to be very rapid, anything the Zentreadi had might have been out of date (10+ year build up for the UEEF).

There isn't much information within the show on just who the Zentraedi actually had to deal with regularly (DoZ, but possibly Zent. "off shoots" Gloval and Leonard essentially establish as possibilities) or even out there (we know other "micronian" worlds exist, either human or humanoid, and I'd even posit that the Zentraedi size might require similar giant size races out there.).

i'd assume that Dolza probably knew a fair bit, and Exodor might have known the basic Lore about them (or at least the version the master's let the zentraedi know) but the average zent probably didn't know of the invid. and i doubt that any of them would have expected to actually run into them, much less find them in control of the master's empire.

[Jefffar]

In the novels* Breetai himself was on Optera during the climactic events. An Invid is responsible for the loss of his eye.

I prefer to go with the vast majority of Zentraedi being unaware of the Invid, and those that were aware thought them either beaten or insignificant.



*= Yes, I know

[Robroy]

I don't think I have seen an official timeline that goes back before the crash of the SDF, 1999. The impression I get is that the defoliation of Optera and rise of the Master's empire was at least a few hundred years ago. Other wise the Master's use of clones and transfer of memories to be immortal makes no sense.

[glitterboy2098]

pretty much. the in show dialog is.. conflicting.. on this point, due to a few examples of original macross setting references being left in. but it heavily implies the master's empire started hundreds if not thousands of years before the events of the 1st robotech war.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
...and transfer of memories ...
...snip

Do you have a reference (book/page/paragraph) for this as an ability of tirolian technology?

[glitterboy2098]

Zor Prime. the master's make a big deal about transferring the original zor's stored memories into a new clone body in the show in early appearance, and make a big deal over how Zor Prime starts being able to access them. ultimately they even reload the original memories again, giving him Zor's full memories near the end of the masters saga.
there is also the medical facility Dana visits during the mothership infiltration. she meets a tirolian citizen there that tell her that because of his individual thoughts (which the masters consider dangerous), his mind had been transferred to a new artificial body for treatment, and he would only get his original body back if the treatment was successful.

we're shown a lot of evidence that the master's have and use mind storage and transfer technologies (also prosthetics tech comparable to rifts biosystems) in the show. that the ruling caste would use that tech to extend their life is not a huge stretch, especially when said individuals talk about a lack of protoculture causing them to be stuck in aging bodies.

[ShadowLogan]

pretty much. the in show dialog is.. conflicting.. on this point, due to a few examples of original macross setting references being left in. but it heavily implies the master's empire started hundreds if not thousands of years before the events of the 1st robotech war.

Well if we take the dialogue for the Zentreadi alone at face value, we are talking 500,000years of "history".

snip...
...and transfer of memories ...
...snip

Do you have a reference (book/page/paragraph) for this as an ability of tirolian technology?

Its stated and implied in the show and even the RPG.

From the Show...:
-Memory transfer is almost a requirement when you consider that the Zentreadi re-sizing process is not a growth/shrink "ray" (ala "Honey I Shrunk the Kids"), but involves actually generating a new body at the desired size (ala "Futurama" episode where Fry gets worms, though in RT's case the bodies aren't teleoperated. SyFy's "Dark Matter" series has something also applicable if to an extent) seen during the micronization process in a TMS episode, (Ep12, possibly the few other ones but I'm not sure on the Ep#, given that we see 2 Bodies: 1 for each size).
-Memory transfer is also involved in TMS episodes involving Zor Prime (Ep56), and the "rehab" clones (Ep55).

From the 2E RPG Books...:
Macross Saga Sourcebook (Manga Size pg207): "This allows the masters to program skills and knowledge directly into their warriors brains, and also has an added bonus of allowing them to be reduced or 'micronized'."
Masters Saga Sourcebook (Manga Size pg214): "These soldiers are decanted from cloning tanks fully grown and programmed with a host of skills." (if they can program skills in they should be able to handle memory IMHO)

In the novels* Breetai himself was on Optera during the climactic events. An Invid is responsible for the loss of his eye.

Actually no it wasn't Optera where Breetai lost his eye/earned the faceplate in the Novels (it is where he died though). Per "Genesis" it was an unnamed world that Zor was seeding with the FoL (so it couldn't be Optera)

[Jefffar]

Thanks for the correction.

Still indicates Breetai had fought the Invid before.

[glitterboy2098]

pretty much. the in show dialog is.. conflicting.. on this point, due to a few examples of original macross setting references being left in. but it heavily implies the master's empire started hundreds if not thousands of years before the events of the 1st robotech war.

Well if we take the dialogue for the Zentreadi alone at face value, we are talking 500,000years of "history".

and yet that dialog includes the zentraedi turning on and destroying their creators back then. it is an example of original SDF:macross setting left in in a weird point (where the zentraedi were created by 'the protoculture' half a million years before, and were part of the reason said civilization was destroyed not long after)

none of the other indicators, especially from masters saga, points to anything that old. suggesting that Exedor's line about half a million years was either him totally screwing up the conversion between zentraedi and earth time systems, or was part of false lore the zentraedi were fed by the masters, likely as a way to control them.

[ShadowLogan]

@Jeffar
I never said he didn't. The Novels for all practical purposes though are an alternate universe, since they aren't even part of the current canon (original timeline on the Novels had NG taking place in the mid 2030s, current view is that its mid 2040s).

@glitterboy2098
I'm just saying that the show gives a figure of 500,000years. A lot more than the "hundreds" or "thousands" of years you bring up. I don't dispute the figure has issues (it was Gloval who stated it not Exedore), but there are ways to make it work (at least w/n series canon, if not the 2E RPG canon or other possible "canons" like the Novels).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Ugh, please dear God stop calling it The Masters Saga. Its NOT a Saga as its focused SOLELY on the war between the UEF and The Masters. Plus, using the TMS abbreviation just makes it confusing.

[Robroy]

Ugh, please dear God stop calling it The Masters Saga. Its NOT a Saga as its focused SOLELY on the war between the UEF and The Masters. Plus, using the TMS abbreviation just makes it confusing.

Well that is the title of the source book, so people are going to call it that. Sometimes the abbreviations do confuse me.

@Jeffar
I never said he didn't. The Novels for all practical purposes though are an alternate universe, since they aren't even part of the current canon (original timeline on the Novels had NG taking place in the mid 2030s, current view is that its mid 2040s).

@glitterboy2098
I'm just saying that the show gives a figure of 500,000years. A lot more than the "hundreds" or "thousands" of years you bring up. I don't dispute the figure has issues (it was Gloval who stated it not Exedore), but there are ways to make it work (at least w/n series canon, if not the 2E RPG canon or other possible "canons" like the Novels).

Rereading the Masters section in the Masters source book, it gives the Masters as a space fairing race for a millennia before finding the Invid, then a few centuries of conflict with them after that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Why didn't the zentraedi mention the invid in the series....the most simple part would be that they were not a part of the story for the macross story arc.

[taalismn]

Why didn't the zentraedi mention the invid in the series....the most simple part would be that they were not a part of the story for the macross story arc.

Well, yes, but that's meta-knowledge.
In-story and in-character, PCs might want to know why their Zentreadi colleagues didn't warn them about the Invid in greater detail.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Why didn't the zentraedi mention the invid in the series....the most simple part would be that they were not a part of the story for the macross story arc.

Well, yes, but that's meta-knowledge.
In-story and in-character, PCs might want to know why their Zentreadi colleagues didn't warn them about the Invid in greater detail.

That would mean they did off camera in the crossover topic a few away.

[taalismn]

[
That would mean they did off camera in the crossover topic a few away.

"We DID try to warn you, but somebody kept turning the POV away, and, as the canonists keep saying; 'if you didn't see it on-screen, it didn't happen'."

[RockJock]

How much did WW2 Italian generals talk about the Battle of Allia, and the Gauls they beat?

I have always used the idea that the Invid weren't the big baddies when Dolza's fleet left Tirol. Some of the history was known to the Zen leadership as history, or even ancient experience, but wasn't considered all that important since the REF was going to meet/fight the Masters.

[slade the sniper]

[
That would mean they did off camera in the crossover topic a few away.

"We DID try to warn you, but somebody kept turning the POV away, and, as the canonists keep saying; 'if you didn't see it on-screen, it didn't happen'."

LOL

I do like a lot of those ideas! Jeffar gets a +1 for his contribution. Stolen for head-canon, er, research!

-STS