Stealth weapons?

[Zer0 Kay]

Is there anything about lasers defaulting to red unless indicated in weapons like blue-green lasers in Underseas? I figure in any color artwork it was probably red but it's be interesting if there was others.

*wonders if you can laser outside the visible spectrum*

IRL, absolutely

[Zer0 Kay]

I don't understand how a "sizzling "ssswhack" sound" is "completely" silent though. I guess the laser beam itself is silent but the gun/clip creating it or the burning it creates are noisy.

Perhaps it does a sizzly ssswhack for MDC armor but a boomier thing for exploding SDC guys?

The book says the laser itself is silent, but that it makes a sizzling noise on contact of something (one would hope it's the target unless that happens to be you or someone you care about/are trying to protect...).

The problem is that atmospheric water vapor is "something". That's what tends to create the sizzle as it travels through the air.

I'm pretty sure that's NOT what they mean....

Im fairly certain they mean the sound of frying bacon or flesh. Or the sound that a brand makes when you press it to a cow or something. The quote points out it's just the sizzle when it -hits- something. Not flying through the air.

Either way it's not an explosion of any sort.

And from me was only sarcastic remarks.

[eliakon]

Rifts Game master guide.
Page 111
Under "A Few Weapons notes"

"Lasers are completely silent! The beams do not make any noise except for the click of the trigger, the soft hum of the energy clip and the sizzling "ssswhack" sound it makes when it hits (and sears through
or into) its target. This is one reason lasers are preferred by assassins and snipers."

Nothing remotely akin to your statement of "there's nothing silent about the target exploding from the energy transfer (unless you consider an M80 firecracker to be silent)."

Your own citation defeats your argument! It says that the beams make no noise, but it acknowledges that on one side, the gun may make noise, and on the other side the target may make noise.

Then I guess there is no such thing as a silent weapon at all (unless we use magic) since everything in existence makes some noise if it moves in anyway, shape, or form
I mean even a 'silenced pistol' will make some clicks when fired, and that bullet makes noise when it hits
Even knives make noise when they strike
....so I guess we can just answer the question no. "No there is no such thing a silent weapon, get a mage"

[Zer0 Kay]

Rifts Game master guide.
Page 111
Under "A Few Weapons notes"

"Lasers are completely silent! The beams do not make any noise except for the click of the trigger, the soft hum of the energy clip and the sizzling "ssswhack" sound it makes when it hits (and sears through
or into) its target. This is one reason lasers are preferred by assassins and snipers."

Nothing remotely akin to your statement of "there's nothing silent about the target exploding from the energy transfer (unless you consider an M80 firecracker to be silent)."

Everyone know that spec ops primary use of suppressors on pistols isn't for the "silent kill" it is to increase awareness of the weapon with the added weight AND on all weapons they use it so in close quarters in a contained space they wont go deaf. A silencer only works on silent kills at range and then if their is a person watch the transfer of K-E will still tip em off on direction the shot came from. Plus a silenced rifle sucks because it has to use subsonic rounds or there is no point to the silencer and the slower round has reduced range and penetration, wont be any mile long OSOHOKs with a silenced weapon system. Hey just thought of a great system a railgun that fires subsonic round. No casings, no gunpowder to make a bang, no need for a performance sucking after market silencer. Of course it would only work on squishees outside of their tin cans.
Your own citation defeats your argument! It says that the beams make no noise, but it acknowledges that on one side, the gun may make noise, and on the other side the target may make noise.

Then I guess there is no such thing as a silent weapon at all (unless we use magic) since everything in existence makes some noise if it moves in anyway, shape, or form
I mean even a 'silenced pistol' will make some clicks when fired, and that bullet makes noise when it hits
Even knives make noise when they strike
....so I guess we can just answer the question no. "No there is no such thing a silent weapon, get a mage"

AND no silencer is silent, they all still release the gas, just not explosively.

[Alrik Vas]

It's why they're called suppressors, I thought.

[Zer0 Kay]

It's why they're called suppressors, I thought.

The layman still like to call them silencers.

Did you know that spec ops don't use the suppressors on their pistol to make silent kills but to increase weapon awareness and not make themselves deaf in CQ combat.

[Alrik Vas]

This is not surprising.

[eliakon]

Which is why I pointed out that either a 'virtually silent' weapon is still a stealth weapon....or nothing is.
Because to argue that some 'makes some noise' weapons should be considered stealthy when others do not is basically the text book definition of cherry picking.

[Jefffar]

Mages aren't silent either, they have to speak to cast their spells.

Get a psychic and hopefully you don't hear them breathing . . .

It can keep going round and round.

Really, if a body falls in the forest, and nobody is around, does it make a noise?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Rifts Game master guide.
Page 111
Under "A Few Weapons notes"

"Lasers are completely silent! The beams do not make any noise except for the click of the trigger, the soft hum of the energy clip and the sizzling "ssswhack" sound it makes when it hits (and sears through
or into) its target. This is one reason lasers are preferred by assassins and snipers."

Nothing remotely akin to your statement of "there's nothing silent about the target exploding from the energy transfer (unless you consider an M80 firecracker to be silent)."

Your own citation defeats your argument! It says that the beams make no noise, but it acknowledges that on one side, the gun may make noise, and on the other side the target may make noise.

Now... M80s became illegal in 1966... so you've probably not actually heard one.... But the originals had 3000mg of flash powder... to put it in perspective anything over 50mg of powder these days is illegal to sell. So a real m80 would be 60 times what you might be considering. There's plenty of 'fake' ones around but in truth, M80s would require a federal explosives license to make/have/use.

Next time I will attempt to use a more current reference point. My apologies.

No... The book says that lasers are silent, save for a sizzle bacon sound on the other end if they hit. but nice try to back pedal away from the "EXPLOSION" you claimed happen.

You asked for Cannon citation that stated lasers were silent. I gave you book and page. The page says they're completely silent. When/if they hit there is a sizzle. You said "there's nothing silent about the target exploding from the energy transfer (unless you consider an M80 firecracker to be silent)"

Which would put your claim of explosive hits by lasers, sounding like huge fireworks (Small explosives) upon contact, your house rules.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Rifts Game master guide.
Page 111
Under "A Few Weapons notes"

"Lasers are completely silent! The beams do not make any noise except for the click of the trigger, the soft hum of the energy clip and the sizzling "ssswhack" sound it makes when it hits (and sears through
or into) its target. This is one reason lasers are preferred by assassins and snipers."

Nothing remotely akin to your statement of "there's nothing silent about the target exploding from the energy transfer (unless you consider an M80 firecracker to be silent)."

Everyone know that spec ops primary use of suppressors on pistols isn't for the "silent kill" it is to increase awareness of the weapon with the added weight AND on all weapons they use it so in close quarters in a contained space they wont go deaf. A silencer only works on silent kills at range and then if their is a person watch the transfer of K-E will still tip em off on direction the shot came from. Plus a silenced rifle sucks because it has to use subsonic rounds or there is no point to the silencer and the slower round has reduced range and penetration, wont be any mile long OSOHOKs with a silenced weapon system. Hey just thought of a great system a railgun that fires subsonic round. No casings, no gunpowder to make a bang, no need for a performance sucking after market silencer. Of course it would only work on squishees outside of their tin cans.
Your own citation defeats your argument! It says that the beams make no noise, but it acknowledges that on one side, the gun may make noise, and on the other side the target may make noise.

Then I guess there is no such thing as a silent weapon at all (unless we use magic) since everything in existence makes some noise if it moves in anyway, shape, or form
I mean even a 'silenced pistol' will make some clicks when fired, and that bullet makes noise when it hits
Even knives make noise when they strike
....so I guess we can just answer the question no. "No there is no such thing a silent weapon, get a mage"

AND no silencer is silent, they all still release the gas, just not explosively.

Silencers aren't remotely silent. the "Pfft" Sound people think they make from movies. ... is... a Movie thing. Even the name 'Silencers' is a movie affectation.

Edit: Oops.. seems that was covered in the next few posts. My bad

[Pepsi Jedi]

Which is why I pointed out that either a 'virtually silent' weapon is still a stealth weapon....or nothing is.
Because to argue that some 'makes some noise' weapons should be considered stealthy when others do not is basically the text book definition of cherry picking.

Well the 'click' of a trigger depressing 1000-2000ft away is going to be silent to anyone... that far away. (and one could argue a simple enough thing to actually quiet down.) The 'sizzle' of a laser burning through your head... while technically sound... isn't sound from the weapon. Nor is it issued at the point of the weapon but at the point of the target.

Arguing that rifts lasers aren't 'silent' because the target sizzles with the damage is a bit strange. The sizzle doesn't come from the weapon, or the shooter. It's from the target. It's like saying "A thrown rock isn't a silent weapon as there's a 'twack' sound when it hit you in the head!"

[eliakon]

Which is why I pointed out that either a 'virtually silent' weapon is still a stealth weapon....or nothing is.
Because to argue that some 'makes some noise' weapons should be considered stealthy when others do not is basically the text book definition of cherry picking.

Well the 'click' of a trigger depressing 1000-2000ft away is going to be silent to anyone... that far away. (and one could argue a simple enough thing to actually quiet down.) The 'sizzle' of a laser burning through your head... while technically sound... isn't sound from the weapon. Nor is it issued at the point of the weapon but at the point of the target.

Arguing that rifts lasers aren't 'silent' because the target sizzles with the damage is a bit strange. The sizzle doesn't come from the weapon, or the shooter. It's from the target. It's like saying "A thrown rock isn't a silent weapon as there's a 'twack' sound when it hit you in the head!"

Since that is almost exactly what was being claimed by some people........
I am pretty comfortable with saying that 'for all intents and purposes things like highly silenced pistols using special rounds, lasers, most spells, and that sort of thing are effectively silent.

[glitterboy2098]

ultimately whether noise is heard when the target is hit depend on why you want a quiet weapon.

if you want to keep your firing position hidden, a laser is fine. the firing, and the passage of the beam, is silent. anyone around the target certainly knows they're being shot at, but they won't know from where right away. and if you relocate between shots, they'll not be able to tell by the direction their getting hit from either.

on the other hand if you want a weapon that even people near the target don't know the target has been killed, yeah a laser is probably not going to cut it.

[Jefffar]

ultimately whether noise is heard when the target is hit depend on why you want a quiet weapon.

if you want to keep your firing position hidden, a laser is fine. the firing, and the passage of the beam, is silent. anyone around the target certainly knows they're being shot at, but they won't know from where right away. and if you relocate between shots, they'll not be able to tell by the direction their getting hit from either.

on the other hand if you want a weapon that even people near the target don't know the target has been killed, yeah a laser is probably not going to cut it.

To be fair, no ranged weapon will cut it, you need to have hands on the target to stop an involuntary yell or to prevent them from falling too heavily to the ground.

[Tor]

I agree about the falling but if you vapourize their head/lungs that might prevent the yell.

Actually if the blast was big enough and you vapourized them entirely there'd be nothing to fall, it'd just mist

[eliakon]

I agree about the falling but if you vapourize their head/lungs that might prevent the yell.

Actually if the blast was big enough and you vapourized them entirely there'd be nothing to fall, it'd just mist

Vaporizing someone instantly, and silently (let alone with out anyone noticing this) is going to take some pretty hefty magic......

[Tor]

That sphere of silence thing isn't THAT high level.

[eliakon]

That sphere of silence thing isn't THAT high level.

Its level 7 so no talismans which is inconvenient.
And there is the fact that you cant cast it long distances.
And what are you going to do to make sure no one else notices in any other way?

(Remember that whole 'killing someone so that no one notices" thing?)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Spell casting in rifts takes spoken words too doesn't it?

[dragonfett]

That sphere of silence thing isn't THAT high level.

Its level 7 so no talismans which is inconvenient.
And there is the fact that you cant cast it long distances.
And what are you going to do to make sure no one else notices in any other way?

(Remember that whole 'killing someone so that no one notices" thing?)

Actually, the spell Talisman can store spells into objects from level one to level 8, excluding illusion type spells.

[flatline]

That sphere of silence thing isn't THAT high level.

Its level 7 so no talismans which is inconvenient.
And there is the fact that you cant cast it long distances.
And what are you going to do to make sure no one else notices in any other way?

(Remember that whole 'killing someone so that no one notices" thing?)

A Talisman can hold up to an 8th level spell.

[flatline]

Spell casting in rifts takes spoken words too doesn't it?

Not according to Underseas. It just takes longer to cast if you don't want to say the words.

[Tor]

I bet a TW could create a silence-firing gun to extend the range.

[eliakon]

I bet a TW could create a silence-firing gun to extend the range.

A TW can create ANYTHING[sup]1[/sup]





[sup]1[/sup]provided that their GM allows it of course

[Tor]

Skirting that, could hand out talismans of silence to a bunch of tiny people who go near your target and toss them, putting themselves at risk but not you.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Or just buy the TW Silencer in the New West book, which renders most guns in the game completely silent at the cost of 10% of the guns range.

[eliakon]

Or just buy the TW Silencer in the New West book, which renders most guns in the game completely silent at the cost of 10% of the guns range.

Yeah, but since the complaint was about the noise the TARGET makes that doesn't solve the problem

[Nightmask]

Or just buy the TW Silencer in the New West book, which renders most guns in the game completely silent at the cost of 10% of the guns range.

Yeah, but since the complaint was about the noise the TARGET makes that doesn't solve the problem

So you make a techno-wizard silencer that silences the target!

[Tor]

Silencing dart gun perhaps?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Spell casting in rifts takes spoken words too doesn't it?

Not according to Underseas. It just takes longer to cast if you don't want to say the words.

I'm fairly certain it does. Can you cite a page?

[glitterboy2098]

wB7, pg63.

spellcasters that cannot speak aloud can say the words in their head, but it drastically slows down the casting speed because of the concentration needed.
(note that the WB7 limit of 1 spell per melee was written for he old RMB spells per melee limits. not sure what it would translate to under RUE)

[flatline]

wB7, pg63.

spellcasters that cannot speak aloud can say the words in their head, but it drastically slows down the casting speed because of the concentration needed.
(note that the WB7 limit of 1 spell per melee was written for he old RMB spells per melee limits. not sure what it would translate to under RUE)

One spell per melee tacit vs two spells per melee spoken implies that tacit casting takes twice as long as spoken casting. If you're comfortable with that, then it's trivial to apply to RUE casting times (left as an exercise for the reader).

[SpiritInterface]

a .22 semi-auto pistol with a proper sound suppressor and a slide lock to prevent the weapon from cycling makes so little noise that it can not be heard beyond 5' and when used against an unsuspecting target in the proper manner as so that the body does not make any noise...

The art of the silent kill is something that warriors, engineers, and others have been working on since time began.

[Alrik Vas]

Vaporizing someone with a laser, according to canon, would still make a bacon sizzle.

[Zer0 Kay]

Vaporizing someone with a laser, according to canon, would still make a bacon sizzle.

Does it actually say that?

[Zer0 Kay]

a .22 semi-auto pistol with a proper sound suppressor and a slide lock to prevent the weapon from cycling makes so little noise that it can not be heard beyond 5' and when used against an unsuspecting target in the proper manner as so that the body does not make any noise...

The art of the silent kill is something that warriors, engineers, and others have been working on since time began.

Uh... Yeah, so what your saying is the same targets that can be taken Dow with the knife from the OP can be silently killed by a .22 with a suppressor and slidelock... So ya still got nothing for MDC?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Vaporizing someone with a laser, according to canon, would still make a bacon sizzle.

Does it actually say that?

The sizzle would be when using SD lasers on SDC beings. MD lasers on a SDC being, the SDC being explodes due to the expanding of the steam generated from the laser flash boiling the water in the SDC being's body.

[eliakon]

Vaporizing someone with a laser, according to canon, would still make a bacon sizzle.

Does it actually say that?

The sizzle would be when using SD lasers on SDC beings. MD lasers on a SDC being, the SDC being explodes due to the expanding of the steam generated from the laser flash boiling the water in the SDC being's body.

Well other than the fact that the books disagree with you....
So yeah, that may be your house rule, but the canon answer is 'lasers just make a sizzle sound, even MD lasers on SDC targets'

[Alrik Vas]

a .22 semi-auto pistol with a proper sound suppressor and a slide lock to prevent the weapon from cycling makes so little noise that it can not be heard beyond 5' and when used against an unsuspecting target in the proper manner as so that the body does not make any noise...

The art of the silent kill is something that warriors, engineers, and others have been working on since time began.

Uh... Yeah, so what your saying is the same targets that can be taken Dow with the knife from the OP can be silently killed by a .22 with a suppressor and slidelock... So ya still got nothing for MDC?

I think we've been mentioning .22 because in flatline's post, he talks about enchanted bullets doing mega-damage.

[Tor]

One spell per melee tacit vs two spells per melee spoken implies that tacit casting takes twice as long as spoken casting. If you're comfortable with that, then it's trivial to apply to RUE casting times (left as an exercise for the reader).

Since it doesn't explicitly say double the time, we could just leave it as it originally was, help widen the gap between audible and silent casting, wouldn't be horrible.

[flatline]

Do whatever you think improves your game the most

[Zer0 Kay]

a .22 semi-auto pistol with a proper sound suppressor and a slide lock to prevent the weapon from cycling makes so little noise that it can not be heard beyond 5' and when used against an unsuspecting target in the proper manner as so that the body does not make any noise...

The art of the silent kill is something that warriors, engineers, and others have been working on since time began.

Uh... Yeah, so what your saying is the same targets that can be taken Dow with the knife from the OP can be silently killed by a .22 with a suppressor and slidelock... So ya still got nothing for MDC?

I think we've been mentioning .22 because in flatline's post, he talks about enchanted bullets doing mega-damage.

Ah... But enough to kill? And if so why not enchant a knife then? A weapon that does kill no matter how silent isn't going to help conceal. If the target is still alive they'll know the direction the attack came from.

[eliakon]

a .22 semi-auto pistol with a proper sound suppressor and a slide lock to prevent the weapon from cycling makes so little noise that it can not be heard beyond 5' and when used against an unsuspecting target in the proper manner as so that the body does not make any noise...

The art of the silent kill is something that warriors, engineers, and others have been working on since time began.

Uh... Yeah, so what your saying is the same targets that can be taken Dow with the knife from the OP can be silently killed by a .22 with a suppressor and slidelock... So ya still got nothing for MDC?

I think we've been mentioning .22 because in flatline's post, he talks about enchanted bullets doing mega-damage.

Ah... But enough to kill? And if so why not enchant a knife then? A weapon that does kill no matter how silent isn't going to help conceal. If the target is still alive they'll know the direction the attack came from.

Realistically there are only a very few ways to 'instantly kill' an MDC being. And since most of them involve extremely rare or powerful magics.....
I guess the REAL question should be
How stealthy of a weapon do you need, and what are you trying to stealthily kill, and where.
The weapon that you use to kill a lightly armored human on patrol at 1000 yards is not the weapon that you use to eliminate a gargoyle door guard, which is different than one that you use to kill a cosmo-knight at a formal ball with no one noticing that they aren't just passed out, which is different than one you use to kill a god at the meeting of the security council of Olympus.....

[Pepsi Jedi]

Vaporizing someone with a laser, according to canon, would still make a bacon sizzle.

Does it actually say that?

The sizzle would be when using SD lasers on SDC beings. MD lasers on a SDC being, the SDC being explodes due to the expanding of the steam generated from the laser flash boiling the water in the SDC being's body.

Negative. I've already cited the source that proves you wrong. There's no explosion. That's just supplication using 'real world' psudo-science to try and say it's so. The books say otherwise.

[flatline]

Vaporizing someone with a laser, according to canon, would still make a bacon sizzle.

Does it actually say that?

The sizzle would be when using SD lasers on SDC beings. MD lasers on a SDC being, the SDC being explodes due to the expanding of the steam generated from the laser flash boiling the water in the SDC being's body.

Negative. I've already cited the source that proves you wrong. There's no explosion. That's just supplication using 'real world' psudo-science to try and say it's so. The books say otherwise.

Physics is pseudo-science?

[Alrik Vas]

In rifts? Oh, absolutely.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Vaporizing someone with a laser, according to canon, would still make a bacon sizzle.

Does it actually say that?

The sizzle would be when using SD lasers on SDC beings. MD lasers on a SDC being, the SDC being explodes due to the expanding of the steam generated from the laser flash boiling the water in the SDC being's body.

Negative. I've already cited the source that proves you wrong. There's no explosion. That's just supplication using 'real world' psudo-science to try and say it's so. The books say otherwise.

Physics is pseudo-science?

Untill you have a laser rifle. Then any sort of 'reaction' upon being shot by a laser rifle, is conjecture at best. Throwing alot of technical or scientific sounding words around it doesn't change that fact. You can 'guess' what might happen but you don't 'know'.

[Blue_Lion]

Ramjets are very bad since they leave a trail of smoke leading right back to the shooter.

Normally exhaust not smoke, and not always. A SR-71 in ramjet flight and scramjets only leave exhaust and/or contrails when the conditions are right.

Yet the space shuttle launches always leave clearly visible trails. So to model rockets.

Even if the exhaust isn't visible, the trail of heated air will be visible to anyone who can see into the IR spectrum.

Side rant: how is a "thermo imager" different from seeing IR?

There is a distinction in fact, actually. Infra-red vision simply means you can "see" thermal radatiation, AKA heat. all things above 0 kelvin emit some thermal radiation, lower when cold, more when hot. Do note that at a certain point (fire), it is actually emitting more visible light than thermal radiation (hence why it's just a blinding dot).

a Thermo-Imager is a device keyed to only display inafred radiation within a "useful' spectrum, to make it easier to make out discrite objects rather than blobs. that is to say, a thermal imaging device will only really show objects greater than the average room temprature (10 microns), to make seeing living things easier and clearer. a "hot" person surrounded by a "cold" background.

Conversly, Infared Vision is nondiscrimitory--it displays all shades of thermal radiation, making it more like looking at a spectrum than a picture of your surroundings.

or the over-simplified version: A thermo-imager is more user friendly by converting all thermal gradiants below room tempature into room temptature to make people stand out easier.

And yet another way to say it would be a thermal imager converts the different shades of red into a variety of colors that make it easy for us to tell apart. IR would be seeing everything in different shades of infra-red. Kinda like a red version of the old monochromatic computer screens 16, 32 shades of red, who knows, it would depend on the sensitivity. All creatures would have IR rather than thermal, tech devices can have either but if it is being viewed by human minds it would be easier to put the shades into different colors so they can contrast easier. IR = natural, Thermal = manufactured/processed.

Simply put IR can generate a image of some thing while thermal imagers can create a heat map of the image. (US NVG use a IR light to help generate images. They can also see strong sources of IR such as IR lasers, even though they are classified as near IR.) You can Think of the difference as IR as working like NVGs while thermal imaging is like how the Predators visor sees.

[flatline]

Physics is pseudo-science?

Untill you have a laser rifle. Then any sort of 'reaction' upon being shot by a laser rifle, is conjecture at best. Throwing alot of technical or scientific sounding words around it doesn't change that fact. You can 'guess' what might happen but you don't 'know'.

Dude, lasers are real. Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn about them doesn't change that fact.