CS capabilities question

[Lenwen]

Mash up time!!


Ground forces alone.. What would it take for the coalition to repel an Altantean assault of say.. Just a small army of... 500'000 seasoned (10th lvl+ ) hardened combat troops in the typical Altantean military fashioned break down ?

Just as many coalition troops ??

Half the number of the Altantean force ?

Twice the number?

Good laws o mercy look at those alteran women!!!!!!

My interest in this Is due to another thread .. ND I am curious of your guys (an gals) opinions on this. Could the coalition fend off a force nearly as large as them with higher tech and magic and the least exp'ed soldier is as high as most of the leaders of the coalition military??

Can't wait to read some of your guys posts now:)

[Killer Cyborg]

You're kind of asking two different things here:

Ground forces alone.. What would it take for the coalition to repel an Altantean assault of say.. Just a small army of... 500'000 seasoned (10th lvl+ ) hardened combat troops in the typical Altantean military fashioned break down ?

and

My interest in this Is due to another thread .. ND I am curious of your guys (an gals) opinions on this. Could the coalition fend off a force nearly as large as them with higher tech and magic and the least exp'ed soldier is as high as most of the leaders of the coalition military??

In the first question, the phrasing "what would it take for The Coalition to repel an Atlantean assault...", which implies that the Atlanteans are attacking Coalition territory. In which case, the CS wouldn't need as many soldiers, because they'd make up for it with missiles and (most likely) fortifications, and a home-ground advantage.

In the second question, though, you seem to be asking a more general question, instead of a specific invasion scenario.
Which makes things more vague, and changes the picture.
If, for example, 500k CS soldiers and 500k Atlanteans all ended up being teleported to a giant battlefield where there was equal footing, then the CS soldiers wouldn't have a significant chance of winning.
(Assuming that the units are equal. i.e., that 1 CS grunt with EBA and an energy rifle = 1 Kittani Grunt with EBA and an energy rifle, NOT a scenario where 1 CS SAMAS = 1 Kittani Grunt in EBA with an energy rifle)

[Kagashi]

I disagree with the first aspect KC. I would think they would need MORE troops to counter the Atlantiean assault force. Why? Because of the stipulation that the Atlaniaen army has an average of 10th level. In PB, as a character levels, he generally gets more powerful. A CS grunt at 10th level as a few more extra attacks than he did at first level, but nowhere as powerful as a 10th level LLW, Dragon, T-Man, or other magic and/or supernatural opponent; whom is significantly more powerful than when he was 1st level.

The only advantage the CS has in this case is the use of psychics, which Atlantis also employs, so thats canceled out. I do agree though that mass long ranged missile strikes would need to be used for the CS to get some kills in, but Kittani are more advanced technologically and employ missiles as well, so that cancels out too.

If the CS had DOUBLE the troops, they might have a chance, but I still see them losing 75% or more of that 1 million man army to beat 500k troops from Atlantis.

One interesting aspect would be...are skelebots considered "troops" or are they considered "equipment" just as a SAMAS would be? If its just equipment, sending in mass waves of skelebots would need to be used as well to soften up the enemy force before human troops would have to die. I see this as needed in addition to the 1 million man army.

Additionally, the CS would need to win...fast. If they get into a prolonged engagement, the enemy would simply get a nights rest and be just as powerful they were the day before, where as the CS troops would have just as much MDC and ammo as they did before they went to bed. A prolonged engagement with equal numbers of troops would not favor the CS (see the thousands of Siege of Tolkeen threads for more examples).

But yes, in the second part of the question, some setting info would be needed for further evaluation. What is the environment? Beach assault? Taking/holding a town or hill? Urban? Rural? Are civilian casualties a consideration? How far away is the battle from Atlantis? How about Chi-Town?

[Killer Cyborg]

I disagree with the first aspect KC. I would think they would need MORE troops to counter the Atlantiean assault force. Why? Because of the stipulation that the Atlaniaen army has an average of 10th level. In PB, as a character levels, he generally gets more powerful. A CS grunt at 10th level as a few more extra attacks than he did at first level, but nowhere as powerful as a 10th level LLW, Dragon, T-Man, or other magic and/or supernatural opponent; whom is significantly more powerful than when he was 1st level.

When a volley of multi-warhead nukes are headed your way, level generally doesn't matter much.

I do agree though that mass long ranged missile strikes would need to be used for the CS to get some kills in, but Kittani are more advanced technologically and employ missiles as well, so that cancels out too.

Only if the Kittani brought their LRM launchers with them from Atlantis.

[ShadowLogan]

While Atlantis is more experienced in this scenario, generally the attacker should out number the defender by a certain margin. So at 1:1 it may not be as clear cut. Even with that said, I think the CS is going to need numerical superiority given the toughness of some of the Atlantis force members..

That said Atlantis has much larger reserves than the CS does so they can replace their losses much quicker than the CS can. Now the CS does have allies it can call upon, but those allies aren't going to overcome Atlantis's greater resources (3+ planets worth). And nothing in the scenario suggests that Atlantis hasn't tied them up to (which they obviously can).

Only if the Kittani brought their LRM launchers with them from Atlantis.

Why should we assume that the force from Atlantis is acting like idiots? Presumably if a force from Atlantis is attacking the CS, then they would have some idea of what they are going to encounter and need to properly handle them.

I would also add that it doesn't take an LRM to counter a LRM missile, you can shoot them down with a gun or other missile type.

[Library Ogre]

A lot depends on the strategy of the Atlanteans and exactly what is meant by their "typical fashion"... not to mention "ground forces". Does it allow for hover vehicles? What's the ceiling where a GEV becomes "aircraft" instead of "ground forces" (I'm thinking of many "hovercycles" which are pretty much personal aircraft).

From there, it depends on tactics. The Atlantean advantage would be to go after Quebec first... relatively closer, for less impeded supply lines (though, with High Lords capable of making sizable teleportation circles, supply lines become more or less moot), and the political situation is that Quebec will have to ask for help from the CS, and that will delay arrival (and the CS will have to supply its troops at a distance).

We'll assume that campaign has been concluded. The CS is mobilized, and ready for the half-million monsters who attacked Quebec to descend upon Iron Heart.

Now, things aren't quite so dire as one might fear. The Splugorth armies aren't made up primarily of magical powerhouses... they're made up of Kittani, who aren't that much different from CS troopers... different gear, but about in the same physical and mental range, and about technologically equivalent. The CS has experience fighting magical troops (since the campaign in Tolkeen), and will be fighting a defensive war, relatively close to resupply (from Chi-town, Missouri, and even Lone Star). Likewise, while the CS isn't the favorite of many in the region, they can count on substantial aid from foreign fighters... Northern Gun, at the very least, Lazlo (even if unofficially), and possibly some incidental aid from the Xiticix if the Splugorth forces swing too far north. The Splugorth, on the other hand, are unlikely to attract strong support; there may be incidental raids on the Coalition as people take advantage of their distraction, but no significant force is going to be attacking the CS on the Splugorth's behalf.

The real problem comes in from resupply. While the Splugorth forces are unlikely to be felled by mundane supply needs (they'll have food and reloads), if they're not getting more troops, the CS will EVENTUALLY grind them up and spit them out. It will take a while, as the Splugorth support troops will have some advantages (i.e. teleportation circles, ley line teleportation, and the ability to heal and repair through magic), eventually numbers will win out.

[Killer Cyborg]

While Atlantis is more experienced in this scenario, generally the attacker should out number the defender by a certain margin. So at 1:1 it may not be as clear cut. Even with that said, I think the CS is going to need numerical superiority given the toughness of some of the Atlantis force members..

That said Atlantis has much larger reserves than the CS does so they can replace their losses much quicker than the CS can. Now the CS does have allies it can call upon, but those allies aren't going to overcome Atlantis's greater resources (3+ planets worth). And nothing in the scenario suggests that Atlantis hasn't tied them up to (which they obviously can).

Only if the Kittani brought their LRM launchers with them from Atlantis.

Why should we assume that the force from Atlantis is acting like idiots? Presumably if a force from Atlantis is attacking the CS, then they would have some idea of what they are going to encounter and need to properly handle them.

Hey, I didn't come up with the scenario.

I would also add that it doesn't take an LRM to counter a LRM missile, you can shoot them down with a gun or other missile type.

That gets into a fuzzy bit with the rules, but I wasn't talking about countering- I was talking about counter-striking.

[kaid]

I disagree with the first aspect KC. I would think they would need MORE troops to counter the Atlantiean assault force. Why? Because of the stipulation that the Atlaniaen army has an average of 10th level. In PB, as a character levels, he generally gets more powerful. A CS grunt at 10th level as a few more extra attacks than he did at first level, but nowhere as powerful as a 10th level LLW, Dragon, T-Man, or other magic and/or supernatural opponent; whom is significantly more powerful than when he was 1st level.

The only advantage the CS has in this case is the use of psychics, which Atlantis also employs, so thats canceled out. I do agree though that mass long ranged missile strikes would need to be used for the CS to get some kills in, but Kittani are more advanced technologically and employ missiles as well, so that cancels out too.

If the CS had DOUBLE the troops, they might have a chance, but I still see them losing 75% or more of that 1 million man army to beat 500k troops from Atlantis.

One interesting aspect would be...are skelebots considered "troops" or are they considered "equipment" just as a SAMAS would be? If its just equipment, sending in mass waves of skelebots would need to be used as well to soften up the enemy force before human troops would have to die. I see this as needed in addition to the 1 million man army.

Additionally, the CS would need to win...fast. If they get into a prolonged engagement, the enemy would simply get a nights rest and be just as powerful they were the day before, where as the CS troops would have just as much MDC and ammo as they did before they went to bed. A prolonged engagement with equal numbers of troops would not favor the CS (see the thousands of Siege of Tolkeen threads for more examples).

But yes, in the second part of the question, some setting info would be needed for further evaluation. What is the environment? Beach assault? Taking/holding a town or hill? Urban? Rural? Are civilian casualties a consideration? How far away is the battle from Atlantis? How about Chi-Town?

Levels especially with tech characters tends not to have that much of an impact. Its useful for the atlantean force to enhance any innate abilities/magic abilities gained with levels but a level 1 guy in a samas is still about 80% or more as effective as a level 10 samas pilot in combat.

Attacking actual CS territories once your force is seen puts you into LRM range of just about every single CS base in the country. If the CS felt threatened enough they could dump an enormous amount of fire power onto any spot in their territories without committing a single troop to it.

[Mack]

Ceding air supremacy to an opponent, especially one like the CS, is a very bad idea. Air power's effect on the principles of war is astounding.

For example, there's a CS aircraft that carries 250 mini-missiles (which can be launched in large volleys) and has a max altitude of 60,000 feet. It would be rather easy for it to fire the entire payload from a safe height. Accuracy would greatly suffer, but the approaching army is an area target (not a point target) so accuracy becomes largely moot. A 12-aircraft Squadron could deliver 3,000 mini-missiles in moments. And that's just a fraction of the CS's airpower.

Ceding the air domain also grants the CS an unhindered freedom of movement. Death Head transports can rapidly move large formations to advantages positions. Not to mention some unconventional tactics like loading a Death Head with a thousand Skelebots and having them jump out the back (sans parachutes) at altitude. Skelebots have limitations, but nobody going to enjoy a few hundred 'bots falling on their flank, or in their rear, or on their head.

And it's hard to even describe the effect a few million SAMAS would have on an air campaign...

Would air power completely destroy an incoming army? No. But the resulting advantages are monumental.


Note - I'm not going to get into the specifics of the CS versus the force noted in the original post. There's not enough hard numbers on the CS force size & structure to come to any meaningful conclusion.

[FatherMorpheus]

Why use Kittani or Blind Woman? Use a 500,000 of the Metztla troops and just mop the floor with the CS.

[Subjugator]

Ceding air supremacy to an opponent, especially one like the CS, is a very bad idea. Air power's effect on the principles of war is astounding.

For example, there's a CS aircraft that carries 250 mini-missiles (which can be launched in large volleys) and has a max altitude of 60,000 feet. It would be rather easy for it to fire the entire payload from a safe height. Accuracy would greatly suffer, but the approaching army is an area target (not a point target) so accuracy becomes largely moot. A 12-aircraft Squadron could deliver 3,000 mini-missiles in moments. And that's just a fraction of the CS's airpower.

Ceding the air domain also grants the CS an unhindered freedom of movement. Death Head transports can rapidly move large formations to advantages positions. Not to mention some unconventional tactics like loading a Death Head with a thousand Skelebots and having them jump out the back (sans parachutes) at altitude. Skelebots have limitations, but nobody going to enjoy a few hundred 'bots falling on their flank, or in their rear, or on their head.

And it's hard to even describe the effect a few million SAMAS would have on an air campaign...

Would air power completely destroy an incoming army? No. But the resulting advantages are monumental.


Note - I'm not going to get into the specifics of the CS versus the force noted in the original post. There's not enough hard numbers on the CS force size & structure to come to any meaningful conclusion.

Col. Mack knows his air power.

/Sub

[Lenwen]

I apologize for any none specifics.. No air support for either side as if I granted both sides air forces.. The win would automatically go to the side who has higher tech (in this case Atlantis) and considering Atlantis has troop transports (tech based ) that are beyond anything the CS could compete with (on a geometric scale) or how bout the star fighters faster more punch more armor force fields .. (they have more of these then the CS has troops and Samas combined) I figured to let only ground forces play.

Nothing that can fly faster then 250mph .. And ceiling being 250ft.

500,000 seasoned Altantean forces (Kydians , kittani, high lords conservators , metzlas , Sunaj ) standard military force break downs places high lords as nothing less then generals or special forces leaders .. Kydians and Kittani are the back bone of the forces (power lords , overlords ) kittani with their very advanced tech machines (they are able to replicate lesser tech based nations such as the CS military stock both weapons based as well as vehicles) and the ultimately deadly conservators

All being backed up by slavers bww, tattooed men , T-archers, maxi men , and the super nasty and deadly Sunaj!!

I could not even imagine personally how deadly a platoon of Kydians kittani with T-men (regular tattooed men T-archers and T-monster men with Maxi men) squad leaders being conservators and top and brass both High Lords would be..

What's your guys thoughts tho ??

[Lenwen]

And yes Atlantean lead forces have high lords at their lead .. Each has as much military knowledge as the absolute best military genius's as the CS has ever had combined.. (thousands of years of leading military campaigns vs a few decades)

I truly do think that the high lords would have a near flawless ability to implement their technological war machines into any and all military plan that also incorporates magical forces as well.

Things such as teleporting entire platoons or companies idirectly into and ontop of.. Enemy bases while breaching the military fortifications with things such as mystic portal.. Breaching any military base with ease with heavy arms based strike teams as the team simply holds defends it's own position and then the llw or other caster then creates a circle of travel.. And then the real fun starts.. (doing this dozens of times threw out the whole base as needed to conquer )

[eliakon]

One can make up arbitrary limits on both sides...apply enough arbitrary limits and you can make sure one side or the other will win.
If you just say "Joe the high lord goes off with an army of a half million troops with no support" then Joe is probably going to lose, since the CS will be able to do crazy stuff like keep mobilizing reserves, churn out more resupply, and call in nuclear strikes.
If it turns into some sort of "Joe the uber god teleports half a million CS troops and half a million Atlantean troops to warworld for the Saturday night game" then its going to be more iffy
If its "The CS is invaded by a 500,000 being Field Army from Atlantis, with the full support and backing of Atlantis" then the CS is screwed. They will be over run in short order, as they have no way of cutting of the resupply of that army, nor of damaging its logistical tail.

[Lenwen]

One can make up arbitrary limits on both sides...apply enough arbitrary limits and you can make sure one side or the other will win.

Exactly! That's why I took away the air forces of both and went with only ground based troops.

Again if air forces were incorporated into this.. Atlantean air force is geometrically beyond any air force on planet earth in comparison so I decided to not include them.

[Subjugator]

Even if the CS were limited by such, they could churn out millions of Skelebots.

[Kagashi]

When a volley of multi-warhead nukes are headed your way, level generally doesn't matter much.

Except for more MDC to absorb the blast, more PPE to cast defensive spells to counter the damage, and more chances to take action (APM) than if they were first level. Collectively, Atlantis troops could easily utilize Tolkeen like tactics and cast Swallowing Rift/Rift Triangular Defense combos (Assume they are by a ley line) with all that extra PPE. Also, it only takes one mini-missile for a 75% chance of destroying the entire volley, and I am sure more than one person in the 500k army would fire one, having an extra 2 attacks to employ this already effective countermeasure is going to come in handy.

Only if the Kittani brought their LRM launchers with them from Atlantis.

With a 500K man package, I don't see why they wouldnt. A few Dragon Dreadnaughts would likely be included. Looks like Splynn only built 10 (unless a later book says he built more...too lazy to look it up). I could see 5 of them being deployed for a deliberate offensive.

Also, they could always just bring their SDF-1

[ShadowLogan]

Hey, I didn't come up with the scenario.

I know you didn't come up with the scenario. It is pretty vaguely defined. And off hand I don't recall what breakdowns of the forces would look like in this case. That can be a major factor. Metzla & Kreewar (sp both?) can soak a lot of damage compared to other elements in the Splurgoth hiarchi (talking 1,000s of points IIRC typically, others are in the hundreds at best).

That gets into a fuzzy bit with the rules, but I wasn't talking about countering- I was talking about counter-striking.

They may not need those LRMs for counter-striking though. It really depends on how the Atlantis force attacked in the first place. They could simply teleport forces to do the counter striking if the force didn't target them coming in, hell they could simply teleport bombs to the site (after recon). And per Fot3G, they do Rift/Teleport forces in, so if Fleets is an indication of standard procedure for all Splurgoth, then the CS will have to fight an enemy that has suddenly appeared well within their boarders, possibly directed at key strategic places in a surprise attack, catching them off guard. So it is possible the CS won't be able to mobilize an effective response if key facilities have been captured, and billions (if not trillions or more) of credits worth of equipment lost to the enemy with nothing to really show for it.

Per CWC doesn't the CS have 1million old syle SAMAS in storage? At 1.6million credits on the blackmarket, that works out to 1.6x10^12 credits in material just in terms of that one particular SAMAS. IINM that is 1.6 TRILLION credits worth on the black market (obviously if all those suits flooded the market at once it would drive the price down).

[Subjugator]

Except for more MDC to absorb the blast, more PPE to cast defensive spells to counter the damage, and more chances to take action (APM) than if they were first level. Collectively, Atlantis troops could easily utilize Tolkeen like tactics and cast Swallowing Rift/Rift Triangular Defense combos (Assume they are by a ley line) with all that extra PPE. Also, it only takes one mini-missile for a 75% chance of destroying the entire volley, and I am sure more than one person in the 500k army would fire one, having an extra 2 attacks to employ this already effective countermeasure is going to come in handy.

So send a bunch of 'em in carried by Skelebots. At least one of them would be able to get through at some point. Hell, bury 'em on the way.

With a 500K man package, I don't see why they wouldnt. A few Dragon Dreadnaughts would likely be included. Looks like Splynn only built 10 (unless a later book says he built more...too lazy to look it up). I could see 5 of them being deployed for a deliberate offensive.

Also, they could always just bring their SDF-1

That's not really there.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey, I didn't come up with the scenario.

I know you didn't come up with the scenario. It is pretty vaguely defined. And off hand I don't recall what breakdowns of the forces would look like in this case. That can be a major factor. Metzla & Kreewar (sp both?) can soak a lot of damage compared to other elements in the Splurgoth hiarchi (talking 1,000s of points IIRC typically, others are in the hundreds at best).

It's their "standard numbers" or whatever. That might be in the Atlantis book.

That gets into a fuzzy bit with the rules, but I wasn't talking about countering- I was talking about counter-striking.

They may not need those LRMs for counter-striking though. It really depends on how the Atlantis force attacked in the first place. They could simply teleport forces to do the counter striking if the force didn't target them coming in, hell they could simply teleport bombs to the site (after recon). And per Fot3G, they do Rift/Teleport forces in, so if Fleets is an indication of standard procedure for all Splurgoth, then the CS will have to fight an enemy that has suddenly appeared well within their boarders, possibly directed at key strategic places in a surprise attack, catching them off guard. So it is possible the CS won't be able to mobilize an effective response if key facilities have been captured, and billions (if not trillions or more) of credits worth of equipment lost to the enemy with nothing to really show for it.

Fair point, but if they teleport into CS territory, then ends up rendering the original question moot.
As Ron White said, "I didn't know how many of them it was going to take to whip my butt, but I knew how many they were going to use."

Per CWC doesn't the CS have 1million old syle SAMAS in storage? At 1.6million credits on the blackmarket, that works out to 1.6x10^12 credits in material just in terms of that one particular SAMAS. IINM that is 1.6 TRILLION credits worth on the black market (obviously if all those suits flooded the market at once it would drive the price down).

3.2 million old-style SAMAS were retired from military service, and half of those (1.6 million) are in use by the ISS.
We're never told what the rest of them are doing.

Not sure why we're talking about that.

[ShadowLogan]

It's their "standard numbers" or whatever. That might be in the Atlantis book.

I've tried looking in WB2, but don't see anything like that.

Fair point, but if they teleport into CS territory, then ends up rendering the original question moot.

Not really. Those batteries could be re-targeted if need be. Though using an LRM to target something that a MRM or SRM could do just as well is of course questionable.

3.2 million old-style SAMAS were retired from military service, and half of those (1.6 million) are in use by the ISS.
We're never told what the rest of them are doing.

Not sure why we're talking about that.

Just looking for a potential cost estimates of the CS military's inventory so that describing a loss of a major facility is in the correct level of credits. After all losing 1.6million credits of equipment doesn't sound as bad as losing billions or trillions credits worth of equipment in comparison.

[Killer Cyborg]

Fair point, but if they teleport into CS territory, then ends up rendering the original question moot.

Not really. Those batteries could be re-targeted if need be. Though using an LRM to target something that a MRM or SRM could do just as well is of course questionable.

The original question was how many CS it would take to beat 500k Atlanteans.
If 500k Atlanteans teleported into CS territory, the question is moot because we wouldn't know how many CS it would take, because virtually ALL the CS would attack them.
I kind of feel like I already explained that.

3.2 million old-style SAMAS were retired from military service, and half of those (1.6 million) are in use by the ISS.
We're never told what the rest of them are doing.

Not sure why we're talking about that.

Just looking for a potential cost estimates of the CS military's inventory so that describing a loss of a major facility is in the correct level of credits. After all losing 1.6million credits of equipment doesn't sound as bad as losing billions or trillions credits worth of equipment in comparison.

We don't have any idea what it costs the CS to make a suit of SAMAS.
We only know what a suit sells for on the Black Market, and that's going to be a lot higher than the cost to the CS.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Only question I got is where this fight is taking place.

[Sureshot]

The CS has a remote chance of winning. Atlantis will crush them. The CS has long range missiles. So do the Atlantean Motherships. Throw a whole bunch of Skelebits at them. Atlantis counters with a army of Kydians. Air superiority both sides have it but again I cede to Atlantis. As they have their Kittani to counter it.

Not to mention a army that combines magic, psonics and tech all on one. Even with Vangard who would be outnumbered the ground troops stand no to little chance of surviving. Even in terms of production and manufacturing both sides have a advantage. Atlantis can summon and call in a bunch of reinforcements. proole seem to forget about the sheer number of slaves Atlantis has. They will use them first with a promise of freedom if they win. A lie to get the slaves to fight better. The only way for the CS to survive is if other factions decide to help them.

[ShadowLogan]

The original question was how many CS it would take to beat 500k Atlanteans.
If 500k Atlanteans teleported into CS territory, the question is moot because we wouldn't know how many CS it would take, because virtually ALL the CS would attack them.
I kind of feel like I already explained that.

While in the long run the situation could boil down to virtually ALL the CS attacking the Atlanteans, and ultimately winning IF the Atlanteans can not call in reinforcements (If they can, the CS can not hope to defeat them). Maybe a better way to look at it would be how much of the CS resources have to be brought to bear to defeat the Atlanteans at minimum (that is how I'm reading the OP).

Though I think really this depends on the actual composition of the Atlantean Force.

We don't have any idea what it costs the CS to make a suit of SAMAS.
We only know what a suit sells for on the Black Market, and that's going to be a lot higher than the cost to the CS.

Agreed. However, it does allow some idea of the cost involved from some perspective.

The CS has a remote chance of winning

Not really. For them to have any chance requires Atantis to fight with one hand tied behind their back. Which this vaguely defined situation in the OP does allow for.

The only way for the CS to survive is if other factions decide to help them.

I find this extremely doubtful. The factions that the CS would likely team up with would not be enough to tip the scale, even those who may join in for their own interests but not formally part of those allied with the CS (who will let D-Bees and such fight among themselves, as evidence with regard to the Shemarrians). Atlantis has that much of an edge in resources. Now if someone from off-world came to the assistance of the CS that is another matter, but one I don't see happening unless Atlantis's actions are enough to anger the "Powers the Be" that have Atlantis confining its actions (IIRC WB2).

[flatline]

We don't have any idea what it costs the CS to make a suit of SAMAS.
We only know what a suit sells for on the Black Market, and that's going to be a lot higher than the cost to the CS.

Strictly speaking, we don't know that the bolded text is true. If the Black Market is selling SAMAS for 1.6M as a steady state price, all we know is that it costs the BM less than 1.6M to acquire the SAMAS.

For instance, it might cost the CS $3M to build a SAMAS, but if the BM can arrange to steal a SAMAS for an average of, say, $500k, then the BM can sell it for $1.6M and make a tidy profit even though it's less than it costs to produce the SAMAS.

--flatline

[Svartalf]

Well, we know that the Black Market manufactured Samas clone, the Sidewinder, which does not have the big gun normal samas have and must rely on (sold separately) hand held weaponry goes for 3.6 M credits...

[Kagashi]

Your head will explode if you try to rationalize any of the arbitrary prices random authors randomly assigned to objects listed in Rifts.

The original point of the cost issue that ShadowLogan was making was the CS could try to underspend Atlantis. You blow up my 1.6 million cr SAMAS, I blow up your 20-30 million cr Serpent PA.

But the problem is, you cannot calculate this in cost, especially with a society which is alien to Earth whom doesnt really deal in Earth-like economics. You have to look at production capability (which we really dont have any hard data on either opponent...so its a moot argument). But we do know that as far as North America is concerned, Chi-Town harbors THE industrial might of the hemisphere as described by Tarn and proved during the SoT with unbelievable amounts of Skelebots, SAMAS, and other war materials being thrown at the tiny magic kingdom. If anybody could stand up to Atlantis with this method...its the CS that can do it (in North America). Problem is....

Chi-Town is Chi-Town. Iron Heart helps out with industry, but the remaining states are there to produce agriculture, provide bodies for the army, and genetic manipulation projects. Meanwhile...Splynn has access to PLANETS worth of industry, under slave labor rules and he could even borrow industry from OTHER Splugorth whom has access to even more PLANETS worth of resources.

So, in this case, I say the losses of 500k troops really are nothing more than a dent in Splynn's pocket book and nothing more than an inconvenience to his inventory. Heck, it prolly entertained him to see what happened to those troops for a good 15 minutes. On the other hand, the CS had a very real chance of losing their homes, lives, way of life, and a very real chance of being annihilated. Basically, this conflict has very real impacts to the CS, where as it was just amusing to Splynn.

[The Beast]

...Nothing that can fly faster then 250mph .. And ceiling being 250ft...

So no missiles then?

[Kagashi]

...Nothing that can fly faster then 250mph .. And ceiling being 250ft...

So no missiles then?

Or SAMAS for that matter.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

...Nothing that can fly faster then 250mph .. And ceiling being 250ft...

So no missiles then?

Or SAMAS for that matter.

Then I suggest we put the CS forces in their underwear with slingshots

[Subjugator]

If we go with no missiles, then we have to say no rail guns or other ranged weapons.

/Sub

[ShadowLogan]

The original point of the cost issue that ShadowLogan was making was the CS could try to underspend Atlantis. You blow up my 1.6 million cr SAMAS, I blow up your 20-30 million cr Serpent PA.

No that was not my point.

If the Atlantis force teleports in to CS territory in a surprise attack on a CS facility(s) and captures it/them relatively intact before the CS forces there can respond (or adequately respond), what is the proper level (as in millions, billions, trillions, etc) of credits to describe the loss to the CS in terms of equipment that have now been lost to them (either destroyed or captured) with the opening maneuver.

[Kagashi]

The original point of the cost issue that ShadowLogan was making was the CS could try to underspend Atlantis. You blow up my 1.6 million cr SAMAS, I blow up your 20-30 million cr Serpent PA.

No that was not my point.

If the Atlantis force teleports in to CS territory in a surprise attack on a CS facility(s) and captures it/them relatively intact before the CS forces there can respond (or adequately respond), what is the proper level (as in millions, billions, trillions, etc) of credits to describe the loss to the CS in terms of equipment that have now been lost to them (either destroyed or captured) with the opening maneuver.

Even then, there is no way to quantifiable way to determine a credit value since there are no hard stats for Chi-Town's and Iron Heart's infrastructure or industrial capabilities. The loss of Chi-Town and Iron Heart would certainly end the CS as a whole. Just as the loss of Missouri and El Dorado would as well since they provide most of the food for the Coalition. In those cases, to the CS, those losses would be valued at an infinite number of credits, because they cannot survive as they stand today without them.

The only state which could be lost would be Lone Star, they they lose most of their R&D, but they could still survive.

Technically, the CS could lean on Free Quebec and/or Northern Gun for industrial support, but that would just open the door for Free Quebec and/or Northern Gun rule of former CS territories since the guy who makes the rules has all the gold (or guns and power armor for that matter).

The Coalition's Center of Gravity is Chi-Town itself. It houses the majority of the Coalition's political power and industrial might. You take that, and the Coalition crumbles, leaving Iron Heart, Missouri, El Dorado, and Lone Star as independent states in a weak coalition with no real leadership. Id say that would be pretty valuable to the CS as a whole, with no conceivable value associated with it.

[Killer Cyborg]

We don't have any idea what it costs the CS to make a suit of SAMAS.
We only know what a suit sells for on the Black Market, and that's going to be a lot higher than the cost to the CS.

Strictly speaking, we don't know that the bolded text is true. If the Black Market is selling SAMAS for 1.6M as a steady state price, all we know is that it costs the BM less than 1.6M to acquire the SAMAS.

For instance, it might cost the CS $3M to build a SAMAS, but if the BM can arrange to steal a SAMAS for an average of, say, $500k, then the BM can sell it for $1.6M and make a tidy profit even though it's less than it costs to produce the SAMAS.

--flatline

I suppose, but I think that would be unusual.

[ShadowLogan]

Something to also consider is why is Atlantis attacking the CS? What are their goals in this offensive. Is it to capture territory (anyold territory, or specific territory), technology, slaves, give the CS a dose of reality and weaken them, just to blow of some steam for XYZ reason, etc? Because those goals will determine how Atlantis fights I would think. Ex, a 500k force intended to take and hold a specific chunk of territory will fight differently than one coming to just pound on the CS to blow off steam or give them a dose of reality, or to capture slaves.

That can help define if the CS actually wins or only appears to because Atlantis has accomplished its goal(s) and pulls back either completely or into a holding action making the CS think they "won".

Even then, there is no way to quantifiable way to determine a credit value since there are no hard stats for Chi-Town's and Iron Heart's infrastructure or industrial capabilities. The loss of Chi-Town and Iron Heart would certainly end the CS as a whole. Just as the loss of Missouri and El Dorado would as well since they provide most of the food for the Coalition. In those cases, to the CS, those losses would be valued at an infinite number of credits, because they cannot survive as they stand today without them.

I agree we can not come up with a complete picture in terms of credits that we can itemize down to the last detail, and the value of some items lost would amount to more than others in the long term. However, we can at least get a low ball estimate going based on some of the items lost from some perspective (in this case the Black market). So we can go at minimum the CS has lost #-credits in material from a 500k force from Atlantis teleporting on top of a CS facility(s). The credits are easier to describe than an itemized list of the material lost.

I don't think the loss of Iron Heart would destabilize the CS that much. Yes IH is a major industrial center of the CS, but so was FQ and that loss did not destroy the CS. Even the loss of Missouri and other agricultural states won't hurt the CS to badly as they have been around before those states joined. Lone Star is another one of those states that if lost would not destroy the CS, but would certainly help in weakening them (unless Chi-Town has the foresight to duplicate Dogboy production elsewhere). What would destabilize if not destroy the CS is the loss of Chi-Town and/or the loss of the Proseks. That is the glue that holds the CS together, and what helped drive FQ into a redefined alliance (independent but friendly now as opposed to part of the CS) by the end of the SoT series.

[Subjugator]

I suppose, but I think that would be unusual.

I dunno...I suspect SAMAS that is stolen at a cost lower than the cost of manufacture is pretty much the standard for SAMAS sold on the black market.

/Sub

[flatline]

I suppose, but I think that would be unusual.

I dunno...I suspect SAMAS that is stolen at a cost lower than the cost of manufacture is pretty much the standard for SAMAS sold on the black market.

/Sub

It's my understanding that stolen goods are almost always sold at a discount.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

I suppose, but I think that would be unusual.

I dunno...I suspect SAMAS that is stolen at a cost lower than the cost of manufacture is pretty much the standard for SAMAS sold on the black market.

/Sub

It's my understanding that stolen goods are almost always sold at a discount.

--flatline

That depends on what the item is, how much demand there is.

But if we go with your thinking, then it applied to more than just CS goods.
Suddenly the Black Market price for a Wilk's is lower than the price at a Wilk's outlet, and so forth.

[flatline]

I suppose, but I think that would be unusual.

I dunno...I suspect SAMAS that is stolen at a cost lower than the cost of manufacture is pretty much the standard for SAMAS sold on the black market.

/Sub

It's my understanding that stolen goods are almost always sold at a discount.

--flatline

That depends on what the item is, how much demand there is.

But if we go with your thinking, then it applied to more than just CS goods.
Suddenly the Black Market price for a Wilk's is lower than the price at a Wilk's outlet, and so forth.

And for the most part, that's actually correct.

The seller will always attempt to sell the goods at the highest price that the market will bear. If it costs the seller more to acquire the good than the market price, then the seller will not bother to acquire any more of that particular good. Any items that are already in stock will either be sold at the market price (presumably at a loss) or held in the hopes of a future price increase.

Now, from the buyer's perspective, if he can buy a new Wilk's pistol from a dealer for $X, then the buyer has no incentive to buy a Wilk's pistol of unknown history from the BM for $X, especially if there's risk that he might be caught with stolen property. As such, in order to attract buyers, the BM will have to sell their Wilk's pistol for something less than $X so that the buyer is willing to accept the risk of damaged, counterfeit, or "hot" goods in order to save some money.

The only time the BM can sell something for the same price as an official dealer is if purchasing from the BM carries no additional risk over purchasing from a dealer which probably means that the BM is either an official dealer itself or offers warranties/exchanges that are just as trusted as what the dealer offers along with no risk of purchasing "hot" items that might later get the buyer in trouble.

This dynamic changes a bit if the BM is selling something that isn't available through official channels (like the SAMAS). In that case, the price the BM can set is limited by the price of competing goods. Since the SAMAS is almost certainly a stolen item AND carries a huge risk if the buyer is later accosted by CS forces, it is almost certain that the SAMAS is being sold at a discount compared to competing goods that don't carry that additional risk (like the Triax Predator).

--flatline

[Lenwen]

Personally, I believe one "key" reason, that Atlantis would utterly crush the Coalition only using a literal fraction of its overall military capabilities is that for Atlantis, lvls increase each individual military unit's leathality beyond that of anything inside of the Coalition.

What say yous ?

[Killer Cyborg]

Flatline, in modern America, what is the black market value of a gram of cocaine?
What is the value of an open market value of a gram of cocaine?

[Kagashi]

Flatline, in modern America, what is the black market value of a gram of cocaine?
What is the value of an open market value of a gram of cocaine?

Exactly.

[flatline]

Flatline, in modern America, what is the black market value of a gram of cocaine?
What is the value of an open market value of a gram of cocaine?

Your analogy is flawed.

Cocaine can't be legally purchased and there is no close substitute that can legally be obtained.

--flatline

[Svartalf]

Because a SAMAS can be legally purchased?

I found the analogy perfect.

[Kagashi]

Flatline, in modern America, what is the black market value of a gram of cocaine?
What is the value of an open market value of a gram of cocaine?

Your analogy is flawed.

Cocaine can't be legally purchased and there is no close substitute that can legally be obtained.

--flatline

Thats the point FL...SAMAS are NOT legal...

[flatline]

Because a SAMAS can be legally purchased?

I found the analogy perfect.

Then you need to understand what a substitute good is. Cocaine doesn't have any legal close substitutes. If I'm a cocaine addict, it's not like I can get my fix by drinking a beer instead.

If I can't purchase a SAMAS legally, I can go pick up a Triax Predator without incurring any of the risks of an illegally purchased SAMAS. Or a Flying Titan and a knock-off railgun. Or whatever else is available that fits the description of "flying power armor".

Since I, as a buyer, have options, the stolen SAMAS needs to be priced such that it's attractive to me even though it carries additional risk over the legal options that I have.

--flatline

[flatline]

Flatline, in modern America, what is the black market value of a gram of cocaine?
What is the value of an open market value of a gram of cocaine?

Your analogy is flawed.

Cocaine can't be legally purchased and there is no close substitute that can legally be obtained.

--flatline

Thats the point FL...SAMAS are NOT legal...

The SAMAS isn't legal, but there are substitutes to the SAMAS that ARE legal. Look at the bolded text above and tell me how an illegal good with no substitutes is a comparable analogy with an illegal good that has a wide variety of substitutes.

--flatline

[flatline]

Perhaps this forum needs a refresher on idea of substitute goods.

Here's a simple definition: http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/gloss ... ute-goods/
And another: http://www.businessdictionary.com/defin ... goods.html

Here's the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Caffeine is a legal substitute for caffeine.
Sure, it's not as good... But neither is the Samson and such.