Atlantis messes with the CS

[DhAkael]

So - Splynncryth gets a hair up his rear tentacle and decides to mess with the CS.

In pursuit of that goal, he starts capturing large numbers of CS personnel and giving them tattoos. Some get the tat on their arm and some get it on their head or torso.

How would the CS respond to this, assuming it was known as being involuntary?

/Sub

The CS nukes the site from orbit...only way to be sure. Then they "CLEANSE! PURGE! KILL!" the soldiers & personnel aflicted with the "heretical taint of the reviled sploogorth."
Unless of course someone has whacked the Prossek boys (psychotic xonophobic NEO-neo-nazis that they are) and all their yes-men. In which case a more reasoned and enlightend solution may be found to assist the CS citizens so afflicted.

[Subjugator]

A rather annoying factor might be to spam Magic Pigeons (20 PPE, trivial if on a Ley Line IIRC) to send messages to CS troops, even outside the battlefield. The trick is getting the name(s) of said troop(s) to harass. Messages should be designed to invoke mistrust in the target(s) by their fellows.

This is sheerest genius, particularly when one or more of the recipients is actually a spy!

Another might be to convert dead CS soliders into Zombies (or mummies, Zombies i think would be more recognizable) and send them back to base with appropriate illusions in place (either additional magic or makeup). As a Zombie they should radiate magic I would suspect, and if the CS doesn't know they are dead

Very nice, too!

/Sub

[Subjugator]

The CS nukes the site from orbit...only way to be sure.

This would never work. If Tolkeen can prevent such bombardment, it's a sure thing that Splynncryth can as well.

Then they "CLEANSE! PURGE! KILL!" the soldiers & personnel aflicted with the "heretical taint of the reviled sploogorth."

I see this as being likely.

Unless of course someone has whacked the Prossek boys (psychotic xonophobic NEO-neo-nazis that they are) and all their yes-men. In which case a more reasoned and enlightend solution may be found to assist the CS citizens so afflicted.

I doubt this would happen. If the Proseks got whacked, the people left would use that to fuel rage against magic users. The possible exception is Desmond Bradford (and I see him as having a good chance of being the guy to take over, BTW...staggeringly smart, ruthless, and powerful as hell...he's my absolute favorite CS guy); he might pull off a change to the use of magic.

"Fight fire with fire" would be an easy sell for him.

/Sub

[flatline]

I think it's more likely that the CS would break apart into a handful of city-states.

--flatline

[taalismn]

Frankly, I think the CS would exterminate them all. There would be considerable paranoia about the Splugorth playing an even deeper game, using the returning soldiers to sneak in infiltrators and brainwashed operatives turned and altered using methods most inhuman and unknown to the CS. Karl knows Hitler's writings well, would shouldn't he also know pre-Rifts movies like 'The Manchurian Candidate' as well(Movie Night at the Proseks', father and son sit around with beer and pizza and take notes on what to do and what NOT to do).
And I agree with the assessment that the Big Eyeball would be more inclined to use his captured Deadboys as slaves; more profit that way. Unless there was some way he could definitely make a profit off the fallout, like recording and airing the reactions to the 'tainted' Deadboys on their return(and all it would take is the discovery of one hidden camera on a returnee to trigger a plasma burial), Splynncryth won't go for such a prank.

[Subjugator]

Frankly, I think the CS would exterminate them all. There would be considerable paranoia about the Splugorth playing an even deeper game, using the returning soldiers to sneak in infiltrators and brainwashed operatives turned and altered using methods most inhuman and unknown to the CS. Karl knows Hitler's writings well, would shouldn't he also know pre-Rifts movies like 'The Manchurian Candidate' as well(Movie Night at the Proseks', father and son sit around with beer and pizza and take notes on what to do and what NOT to do).
And I agree with the assessment that the Big Eyeball would be more inclined to use his captured Deadboys as slaves; more profit that way. Unless there was some way he could definitely make a profit off the fallout, like recording and airing the reactions to the 'tainted' Deadboys on their return(and all it would take is the discovery of one hidden camera on a returnee to trigger a plasma burial), Splynncryth won't go for such a prank.

Oh, I think so too...but they *could* be converted to Borgs.

/Sub

[taalismn]

*Could be*, but why bother, if you figure they're compromised. Use the bionic resources to convert volunteers or wounded soldiers who you *KNOW* haven't been in enemy hands and are thus not suspect.

The only real case I find for the CS NOT offing those who were i enemy hands was in the Rifter, where one of the scientists at the St. Louis Arch containment zone spent several weeks on the other side amongst the Black Faeries, and he came back with a serious hate-on for the supernatural, but as has been argued elsewhere and at length, unless it's specified as canon, you can take the Rifter articles as you will.

[Subjugator]

They could do it to avoid offing a hero.

[flatline]

Do tattoos radiate magic when they're not activated?

[ShadowLogan]

Do tattoos radiate magic when they're not activated?

Off hand i would say yes, magic tattoos do radiate magic even when inactivated (they're more like regular/rune magic artifacts than TW magic artifacts).

And I agree with the assessment that the Big Eyeball would be more inclined to use his captured Deadboys as slaves; more profit that way. Unless there was some way he could definitely make a profit off the fallout, like recording and airing the reactions to the 'tainted' Deadboys on their return(and all it would take is the discovery of one hidden camera on a returnee to trigger a plasma burial), Splynncryth won't go for such a prank.

Well Splynncryth could be acting as a middle man theoretically, some one pays him/Atlantis to perform the services.

The CS nukes the site from orbit...only way to be sure

Even assuming the CS could nuke the site from orbit (they can't as they are denied access to space, the pesky Orbitals have that containment program in place) or even successful (as Sub. points out). That could just as easily get Splynncrthy mad enough into retaliation, and a CS vs Atlantis War would not go good for the CS.

[DhAkael]

Some people don't "get" humour / sarcasm / satire anymore it seems. Yeesh, loosen up would ya.

[Blue_Lion]

If Atlantis wanted to do this it would be more likely to be an airborne bio wizard parasite of some type. Difficult to remove radiates magic and not something you want to catch. Possibly without the ability to reproduce in the wild to avoid ruining slave stock. It could be delivered threw missiles and bombs or even tainted food.

[flatline]

If Atlantis wanted to do this it would be more likely to be an airborne bio wizard parasite of some type. Difficult to remove radiates magic and not something you want to catch. Possibly without the ability to reproduce in the wild to avoid ruining slave stock. It could be delivered threw missiles and bombs or even tainted food.

Covering the burbs in supernatural spores or bugs or something would make dogboy and psi-stalker senses useless.

--flatline

[Library Ogre]

If Atlantis wanted to do this it would be more likely to be an airborne bio wizard parasite of some type. Difficult to remove radiates magic and not something you want to catch. Possibly without the ability to reproduce in the wild to avoid ruining slave stock. It could be delivered threw missiles and bombs or even tainted food.

Covering the burbs in supernatural spores or bugs or something would make dogboy and psi-stalker senses useless.

--flatline

This plan seems familiar...

[Lenwen]

Guys they could already do this as there is a specialty dealer who sells every type of coalition gear equipment and vehicles as well as the soldiers themselves as well in splynn!!


Ok so my opinion on this is rather simple.. The coalition would in fact (as per their description) kill those tainted humans and then spin it as tho they died a long time ago great heroes every one of them.. And that some monstrous power used their dead bodies (reanimated of course) In an attempt at trying to deceive and enter the grand cities of the one true last hope for humankind!!!

It was a few that came back (who died protecting the CS) who tipped the mighty last bastion of human hope on the planet off about this devilish and heinous act from monsters unknown!!

[Blue_Lion]

If Atlantis wanted to do this it would be more likely to be an airborne bio wizard parasite of some type. Difficult to remove radiates magic and not something you want to catch. Possibly without the ability to reproduce in the wild to avoid ruining slave stock. It could be delivered threw missiles and bombs or even tainted food.

Covering the burbs in supernatural spores or bugs or something would make dogboy and psi-stalker senses useless.

--flatline

This plan seems familiar...

That Wikia does not match what I remember. the spore was not attack the brain but to devolve people.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

Although I really can't see Splynn ever even trying this (even for giggles), I do agree that the returning "tainted" troops would be killed off.

If their return was even mildly well-known by the public, have these troops brought in for routine medical examinations and euthanize them by injecting them with a non-contagious disease; spin it as a part of their malady from Atlantis and applaud the poor souls for their bravery.

[Sureshot]

Splynn attacking the CS because it's bad for business. Even if all the good to neutral factions joined the CS chances are good that Splynn forces would wipe them out. If the CS were dumb enough to be the agressor they would be wiped out.

[Warmaster40k]

Simple. Karl's son would have them all sent to CS Lone Star an let Desmond Bradford have his way with them all the while acclaiming them all as National Hero's . While out there Karl's son (cant remember his name atm ) would also allow Desmond to experiment on them , Desmond would then have them do seek an destroy missions for him an possibly start his very own Vendetta Army against the Pacos Empire . Not a single faction in Lone Star would think these Supernatural Beings are actually under CS leadership . The Perfect reason to season up this brigade size force . After some time of seasoning them up Desmond Briefs Karls son on thier abilities , powers . At which time Karl's son decides to use this new power under his own leadership to start a new campaign of terror against OTHER magic using communities . As was said who would put the connection together . Esp after thier all outfitted with merc style weapons an gear from other manufacturer's . All the while telling that brigade that thier now on the CS top secret program thus improving thier overall moral . The CS would easily be able to spin this into something of HUGE gain . The TOP officials in CS are not stupid enough to let something like this simply slip threw thier hands . Least not that I would think .

-Lenwen.

First of all, Joseph HATES Doctor Bradford. So no he would not just them to a man he thinks is a monster.
So here is a question, why no one bring up RCSG, don't you think you're being unfair leaving them out of this discussion? I mean it's the one group in the CS that studies magic and the demons. RCSG are going to want dibs. Also all of them will get a detailed debrief by PSYBAT.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Rifts® Secrets of the Coalition States: The Disavowed

“Desperate times require desperate measures. War has nothing to do with morality or justice. It’s all about winning or dying. We cannot bind our hands with high ideals, even our own, or worry about the laws of renegade nations or the rights of alien people. We must fight fire with fire. And you are the match.” – Colonel Lyboc addressing a Disavowed team

The Disavowed are so Top Secret that their existence is known only to a handful of the Coalition States’ most elite, top echelon, with Joseph Prosek II the mastermind behind the Disavowed operation, and Colonel Lyboc its shadowy face. Find out who these men and women are. How the Disavowed get away with using magic, traveling to other parts of Rifts Earth and even to other dimensions in pursuit of enemies and strategic information that cannot be had through conventional means. Learn about the secret parameters in which these hard-boiled warriors, secretly hand-picked by Joseph Prosek II, operate, why almost every mission is considered a suicide mission, and why they must forever be the Disavowed.

always figured they would have something like this, so given the current debate along with this upcoming book odd are so of you aren't no going to like it

[Lenwen]

Are there any invocations with long or permanent durations that cause someone to appear as magical to dog boy senses? Tattoos would certainly work, but require more investment than simply casting spells on people.

What do you define as "long duration" though
The idea is to cast some sort of magical effect on CS troops so that they reek of magic long enough that the CS doesn't trust that they haven't been compromised by "the enemy" (whoever that may be). This has two potential benefits:
1. I no longer have to kill a soldier to deprive the CS of that soldier. I just have to make the CS not trust that soldier so that they "dispose" of him somehow.
2. If the CS doesn't kill the effected soldiers but still allows them to remain, then that makes it harder for psi-stalkers and dogboys to identify magic since these soldiers will interfere (see the description of how multiple sources of magic are confusing to the dogboy and stalker senses).

Preferably effects that have a duration of at least days or weeks. The longer the better. Permanent is ideal.

--flatline

yes, there are tons of ways.. Sym's .. Parasites.. Possessing entities.. The list goes on an on..

[Lenwen]

All the posters who say it would not be splynn like to just utterly conquer the coalition fails to remember one absolutey fine detail mates..

He is capt.. ER.. Still a Splugorthian intelligence.. And to say anything is in the nature of one such as his kind.. One must always remember the splugorthians exsist to conquer and enslave ..

/shrug will he ? Won't he? The facts speak loud and clear.. He has already expanded more then what was alloted him to originally have.. Multiple bases on multiple continents and he has floating fortresses that are mini bases/kingdoms in their own right.

[Razzinold]

Too many variables to say outright what the CS would do. Kill them, use them to gain support in the fight against magic and kill some because they were "too dangerous" and borg the rest, etc.

I know if I was one of the soldiers and I only received a few tats on my arm(s) and leg(s) I would make my way close to the original abduction site, vaporize those limbs and radio for help.

It's not like some of the other surviours can accuse me of being "tainted" along with them. After all who are you going to believe, some soldier "tainted" with magic or a heroic survivour like myself that didn't get captured along with the rest of them, survived the battle and lost a couple of limbs in the process?

Step 1) Distance yourself from the rest of the group
Step 2) Remove all evidence and radio in and wait for pickup, do not go to the base yourself
Step 3) Hope with all your might that they take you at your word, and if not it doesn't matter because you were a dead man anyway,

[Blue_Lion]

Too many variables to say outright what the CS would do. Kill them, use them to gain support in the fight against magic and kill some because they were "too dangerous" and borg the rest, etc.

I know if I was one of the soldiers and I only received a few tats on my arm(s) and leg(s) I would make my way close to the original abduction site, vaporize those limbs and radio for help.

It's not like some of the other surviours can accuse me of being "tainted" along with them. After all who are you going to believe, some soldier "tainted" with magic or a heroic survivour like myself that didn't get captured along with the rest of them, survived the battle and lost a couple of limbs in the process?

Step 1) Distance yourself from the rest of the group
Step 2) Remove all evidence and radio in and wait for pickup, do not go to the base yourself
Step 3) Hope with all your might that they take you at your word, and if not it doesn't matter because you were a dead man anyway,

That assumes
A you know what they did (IE that the tattoos are magical)
B the tattoo can easily be removed without killing yourself in the field.

[Razzinold]

Too many variables to say outright what the CS would do. Kill them, use them to gain support in the fight against magic and kill some because they were "too dangerous" and borg the rest, etc.

I know if I was one of the soldiers and I only received a few tats on my arm(s) and leg(s) I would make my way close to the original abduction site, vaporize those limbs and radio for help.

It's not like some of the other surviours can accuse me of being "tainted" along with them. After all who are you going to believe, some soldier "tainted" with magic or a heroic survivour like myself that didn't get captured along with the rest of them, survived the battle and lost a couple of limbs in the process?

Step 1) Distance yourself from the rest of the group
Step 2) Remove all evidence and radio in and wait for pickup, do not go to the base yourself
Step 3) Hope with all your might that they take you at your word, and if not it doesn't matter because you were a dead man anyway,

That assumes
A you know what they did (IE that the tattoos are magical)
B the tattoo can easily be removed without killing yourself in the field.

Yes I based my response on the assumption that the CS would have some intel on Atlantis and
if they don't then the solider would have to wonder why he was given a tattoo and let go.

He may not know that it has magical powers but at the very least he should hypothesize that it is some kind of tracking device (it's not like his captors gave him the mark so make him look cool), or a mark/brand to imply that he is now their property.

I think that both reasons would lead to him burning off the tattoo or removing the limb/cutting the piece out.

[Slight001]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

[Library Ogre]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

I would allow it.

[flatline]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

I suppose they could since they're human mutants, but having a permanent magical artifact on them would interfere with their ability to sense magic and the supernatural. I think it would be very bad for a psi-stalker to get a magic tattoo.

--flatline

[Subjugator]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

Ugh. They'd be food for any of their compadres and they'd have a predator response thinking of themselves. I see a lot of problems with this.

...but ole Splynny would probably think it was hilarious.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

Too many variables to say outright what the CS would do. Kill them, use them to gain support in the fight against magic and kill some because they were "too dangerous" and borg the rest, etc.

I know if I was one of the soldiers and I only received a few tats on my arm(s) and leg(s) I would make my way close to the original abduction site, vaporize those limbs and radio for help.

It's not like some of the other surviours can accuse me of being "tainted" along with them. After all who are you going to believe, some soldier "tainted" with magic or a heroic survivour like myself that didn't get captured along with the rest of them, survived the battle and lost a couple of limbs in the process?

Step 1) Distance yourself from the rest of the group
Step 2) Remove all evidence and radio in and wait for pickup, do not go to the base yourself
Step 3) Hope with all your might that they take you at your word, and if not it doesn't matter because you were a dead man anyway,

That assumes
A you know what they did (IE that the tattoos are magical)
B the tattoo can easily be removed without killing yourself in the field.

Yes I based my response on the assumption that the CS would have some intel on Atlantis and
if they don't then the solider would have to wonder why he was given a tattoo and let go.

He may not know that it has magical powers but at the very least he should hypothesize that it is some kind of tracking device (it's not like his captors gave him the mark so make him look cool), or a mark/brand to imply that he is now their property.

I think that both reasons would lead to him burning off the tattoo or removing the limb/cutting the piece out.

It depends on how much of the Intel is shared with grunts on magic(giving the CS anti literacy it might not be shared). They can easily make the person think the tattoo is like branding to mark slaves and let him escape on its own.

Without basic fist aid removing a limb (heck even with) can result in bleeding to death(a tourniquet is first aid skill). The tattoo could be placed say the back of the neck or on the throat along the jugular so removing it yourself could be risky.

[Subjugator]

It occurs to me that a psychic could confirm that the person is in fact not possessed but just got hosed.

/Sub

[eliakon]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

That depends. By strict canon, they are a sub-race, and master psychics to boot, and thus probably ineligible for the later reason and possibly for the first reason.
However since it is amusing to have a Psi-Stalker that thinks he himself tastes good....I would allow it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Depends if the psi-stalkers don't go super psi-stalker on them first.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

I would allow it.

No........Psi-Stalkers are a Master-Psionic class and are therefore ineligible to receive (working) magic tatts.

[Library Ogre]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

I would allow it.

No........Psi-Stalkers are a Master-Psionic class and are therefore ineligible to receive (working) magic tatts.

Yeah, but rules in Palladium are so frequently violated in the name of cool, I have no problem with it. Heck, given that True Atlanteans are 5% Mind Melters, 4% Mind Bleeders, and 2% Mystics (to say nothing of all the Techno-wizards they have), I don't see a particular sign that rule was ever intended to be enforced.

[ShadowLogan]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

I would allow it.

No........Psi-Stalkers are a Master-Psionic class and are therefore ineligible to receive (working) magic tatts.

Why would their Psychic class prevent them from receiving any magic tattoos? A cyber-knight (who are a psychic using class) can receive magic tattoos provided the race requirements are met, and a CK is specifically mentioned in WB2. And you only change to a T-man-type OCC IF you receive more than 6 magic tattoos (7 and above).

What could stop a Psi-Stalker from acquiring working magic tattoos at all would be their status as a human mutant. The rules only allow for Humans, elves, Ogres, True Atlanteans, and the dragon creators. While TA's are related to humans, other human off-shoots aren't touched up (beyond maybe the Ogre).

[Tor]

The CS are fanatics.
They don't react in what might be seen as a logical way
nor are they likely to be swayed by compassion

I don't think that CS fanaticism means that they are necessarily going to be illogical, logical fallacies biasing their thinking in some areas doesn't mean it will be present in others.

Even for those they cannot cure, keeping them alive and neutralized is still an option.

[Blue_Lion]

The CS are fanatics.
They don't react in what might be seen as a logical way
nor are they likely to be swayed by compassion

I don't think that CS fanaticism means that they are necessarily going to be illogical, logical fallacies biasing their thinking in some areas doesn't mean it will be present in others.

Even for those they cannot cure, keeping them alive and neutralized is still an option.

Racist often act in illogical ways to those that are not. So people assuming they are such is not a flawed assumption. I would point that there is different levels of fanatics, in the CS some small units might let them go while others would burn them at the stake. As I understand it most the higher ups and policy makers tend to be among the extreme racists.

[eliakon]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

I would allow it.

No........Psi-Stalkers are a Master-Psionic class and are therefore ineligible to receive (working) magic tatts.

Why would their Psychic class prevent them from receiving any magic tattoos? A cyber-knight (who are a psychic using class) can receive magic tattoos provided the race requirements are met, and a CK is specifically mentioned in WB2. And you only change to a T-man-type OCC IF you receive more than 6 magic tattoos (7 and above).

What could stop a Psi-Stalker from acquiring working magic tattoos at all would be their status as a human mutant. The rules only allow for Humans, elves, Ogres, True Atlanteans, and the dragon creators. While TA's are related to humans, other human off-shoots aren't touched up (beyond maybe the Ogre).

Being a psychic is a hindrance as of the Ret-Con in WB 21 pg. 107 when the rules on Tattoos were changed.

[Tor]

If the CS has enough tolerence to suffer the existence of Ghosts/Slayers/Stalkers then someone with some tats shouldn't be much of a problem.

[Library Ogre]

If the CS has enough tolerence to suffer the existence of Ghosts/Slayers/Stalkers then someone with some tats shouldn't be much of a problem.

The CS has long taken some logically dodgy stances. Ghosts, Slayers, and Stalkers are all psychics, and psychics are OK (largely, I would imagine, because they occur naturally within the human population). Non-humans are horrible, evil creatures, but they largely embrace several non-humans (mutant animals) as being useful (though not as full people).

Magic is always suspect according to the official CS line. And someone who has been magically altered by alien beings to have magic? While some individuals blur that line a little bit (the RCSG study magic, but don't officially use it; the CS will us magic-enabled mercenaries with enough deniability), the official line stands at "magic is a horrible, corrupting force, to be destroyed at all costs."

You might have some rare instances where the tattoo'd soldier was not killed. He might be folded into one of those deniable groups. He may be studied. But the official line on him is "He has been corrupted by magic and must die."

[ShadowLogan]

On a semi related note... can Psi-Stalkers get magic tattoos?

I would allow it.

No........Psi-Stalkers are a Master-Psionic class and are therefore ineligible to receive (working) magic tatts.

Why would their Psychic class prevent them from receiving any magic tattoos? A cyber-knight (who are a psychic using class) can receive magic tattoos provided the race requirements are met, and a CK is specifically mentioned in WB2. And you only change to a T-man-type OCC IF you receive more than 6 magic tattoos (7 and above).

What could stop a Psi-Stalker from acquiring working magic tattoos at all would be their status as a human mutant. The rules only allow for Humans, elves, Ogres, True Atlanteans, and the dragon creators. While TA's are related to humans, other human off-shoots aren't touched up (beyond maybe the Ogre).

Being a psychic is a hindrance as of the Ret-Con in WB 21 pg. 107 when the rules on Tattoos were changed.

Never noticed that before in WB21 about psychics, but it does allow for even Master Psychics to receive working magic tatts, the only hindrance to their actual use is available PPE.

Psi-Stalkers also qualify as human mutants though, which is an even bigger strike against them in this case as human mutants are specifically said to be out of bounds. Which I got from WB2.

[Subjugator]

Psi-Stalkers also qualify as human mutants though, which is an even bigger strike against them in this case as human mutants are specifically said to be out of bounds. Which I got from WB2.

That's peculiar, since Ogres would also be excluded under that rationale, too.

/Sub

[Library Ogre]

Psi-Stalkers also qualify as human mutants though, which is an even bigger strike against them in this case as human mutants are specifically said to be out of bounds. Which I got from WB2.

That's peculiar, since Ogres would also be excluded under that rationale, too.

To say nothing of elves, which aren't remotely human.

[Tor]

Chaing-ku aren't human either, I don't think tats have ever been exclusive to'm.

The CS has long taken some logically dodgy stances. Ghosts, Slayers, and Stalkers are all psychics, and psychics are OK (largely, I would imagine, because they occur naturally within the human population).

Dragons are psychics too, so are mind-bleeders and mystics I'm not singling them out for being psychics, but rather for their non-psychic aspects, like being mutants with things like a major super power, or being a PPE vampire who has to torture living beings to survive (not limited to psi/mag/sup for slayer) or else capture/cut them, being someone who can turn into MDC, who can feed on ley-lines. What motive does a Stalker have to protect CS farmland when they can go survive on their sour-milk ley lines that let them survive without armor?

Non-humans are horrible, evil creatures, but they largely embrace several non-humans (mutant animals) as being useful (though not as full people).

I would say the CS embraces "Earthlings", all other animal species are non-human but have a natural place here, Dog Boys and go are just human enhancements to their pets. Of course, they can twist the idea on who is perceived to be a native earthling. Other species who have been here a long time or even predate humanity can be retconned by CS diplomats to be considered new arrivals who are lying

Magic is always suspect according to the official CS line. And someone who has been magically altered by alien beings to have magic? While some individuals blur that line a little bit (the RCSG study magic, but don't officially use it; the CS will us magic-enabled mercenaries with enough deniability), the official line stands at "magic is a horrible, corrupting force, to be destroyed at all costs."

They aren't that extreme, the CS takes mages prisoner after all (good emergency food supply for Psi-Stalkers, just cut their tongues, bind their hands, blast white noise into their ears, etc) so they could probably just throw someone beset with a tattoo infection into a room with some Nega/Nullifier psionics and work on how to fix them.

the official line on him is "He has been corrupted by magic and must die."

Per where? CS does not have an absolute "mages must die" public policy anywhere I've seen, just an overwhelming propensity to do it.

Maybe SoT events changed this (page?) but CWCp32 mentions that "practitioners" of magic aren't allowed into cities. It only says they "may" be exterminated. So even in the case of intentionally-learned guys like Walkers/Shifters they could be allowed to live within CS territory, just not allowed within population centers within cities due to the danger they pose.

I don't even know if T-Men are considered to be a 'practitioner' of magic, anyone with 1-6 I don't think would be (not even an OCC change) I always figured them to be more of a men-at-arms class. Just having magical abilities thrust on you doesn't make you a practitioner, or are Bio-Borgs now a practitioner-of-magic OCC?

human mutants are specifically said to be out of bounds. Which I got from WB2.

Which page? WB21p107 only mentions 'most' human mutants can't use it. Atlantis said all?

Ogres would also be excluded under that rationale, too.

Actually I dunno if a solid enough stance exists on Ogres. Are they mutant humans, or are humans mutant ogres, or are we cousins branched from an earlier common ancestor like humans/chimps?

[Subjugator]

Psi-Stalkers also qualify as human mutants though, which is an even bigger strike against them in this case as human mutants are specifically said to be out of bounds. Which I got from WB2.

That's peculiar, since Ogres would also be excluded under that rationale, too.

To say nothing of elves, which aren't remotely human.

Yeah, but ogres are actually the same species as humans.

/Sub

[Tor]

Hm... well they can breed with us... but maybe they are the same Genus rather than species?

Like for example the common chimp is "Pan troglodytes" while the bonobo is "Pan paniscus" species, both in "Pan" genus, and they can inter-breed: http://www.macroevolution.net/bonobo-ch ... brids.html

Human/Ogre closeness might be like this, or like with Lion/Tiger or something. Except with the whole 'offspring are always ogres unless the human is a sea titan or amazon' thing.

[Subjugator]

One of the books said they're the same species. I *think* it's Atlantis, but I'm not sure.

/Sub

[ShadowLogan]

Psi-Stalkers also qualify as human mutants though, which is an even bigger strike against them in this case as human mutants are specifically said to be out of bounds. Which I got from WB2.

That's peculiar, since Ogres would also be excluded under that rationale, too.

/Sub

No Ogres wouldn't be. Ogres are specifically identified as being able to receive magic tattoos. It is held that humans and ogres might be related in numerous places, since they can inter-breed. I don't think I've ever seen them identified as being a Human Mutant (or mutant human), just related.

Human mutants, like Psi-Stalkers, in general are not mentioned in WB2 as being able to receive magic tattoos, only "human", "elf", "true atlantean", "ogre", and "Chiang-Ku". They don't even mention other human variants (ie mutants), so it is more what they don't say on the topic than what they have said.

They do say that even human looking D-Bee/aliens can't receive it. That would support the idea that mutants can look human, but as far as the magic is concerned they aren't.

To illustrate, a few months back I bought an external USB 3.5" floppy drive. It works just fine in Windows XP (old I know), but when I try to use it in Windows 7, the device fails to work properly (it is detected, but try to access a disk and its a no go). So Tattoo magic is like the USB Drive, it works in older versions of Windows (humans), but that is no guarantee that it will work properly in newer version (recent human mutants).

Which page? WB21p107 only mentions 'most' human mutants can't use it. Atlantis said all?

It's more what they don't say on the issue in WB2 that leads to be think mutants are not eligible.

[Subjugator]

No Ogres wouldn't be. Ogres are specifically identified as being able to receive magic tattoos. It is held that humans and ogres might be related in numerous places, since they can inter-breed. I don't think I've ever seen them identified as being a Human Mutant (or mutant human), just related.

According to the books, they are the same species as human beings. That would seem to indicate that they are a mutated form of human. That they are specifically included in those who can receive them is not relevant to my comment.

Human mutants, like Psi-Stalkers, in general are not mentioned in WB2 as being able to receive magic tattoos, only "human", "elf", "true atlantean", "ogre", and "Chiang-Ku". They don't even mention other human variants (ie mutants), so it is more what they don't say on the topic than what they have said.

Psi-Stalkers and other mutants are still humans. They're just mutated humans. The same would seem to apply to Atlanteans, since it says 'humans' after their listing. Without mutants being excluded, I'd allow them.

They do say that even human looking D-Bee/aliens can't receive it. That would support the idea that mutants can look human, but as far as the magic is concerned they aren't.

Human mutants are still human. Technically, every change ever seen in humanity is a mutation. Would a person with an additional finger on each hand count as 'not human' with regard to tattoos?

To illustrate, a few months back I bought an external USB 3.5" floppy drive. It works just fine in Windows XP (old I know), but when I try to use it in Windows 7, the device fails to work properly (it is detected, but try to access a disk and its a no go). So Tattoo magic is like the USB Drive, it works in older versions of Windows (humans), but that is no guarantee that it will work properly in newer version (recent human mutants).

I don't find that to be comparable.

It's more what they don't say on the issue in WB2 that leads to be think mutants are not eligible.

Okay, so this is conjecture on your part, because you think they aren't human enough. I'd say that since human mutants are humans, that they're fine.

/Sub