Combat roles on Rifts earth

[flatline]

It's too bad that rules aren't provided for how to handle missile strikes against ground targets. Whether the target is designated by painting it with a laser (presumably requiring a strike roll on behalf of the spotter and then another on behalf of the missile), or if the missile is supposed to be smart enough to be looking for hostile targets (in the air or on the ground? depends on what kind of sensors and processing capabilities the missile has, I suppose).

Specifically, I would love to know how long it takes to request the missile strike, have the missile strike approved, and then have the missiles launched. I would also like to know how many missiles are launched and what types of missiles are used. I can already do the math to decide how long it takes the missiles to arrive.

I would also like details on the capabilities of artillery with both guided and unguided ordinance.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

Do not think those are things the writers even considered or have knowledge on. They favor simple strike rules over detailed working of targeting systems.

[Subjugator]

This is why I've toyed with the idea of a "scale" factor for Rifts. Something to effect of:
1) Infantry size
2) Power Armor, Full Cyborg size
3) Robot, Tank size

If you try to shoot something that's a larger size, then your weapon's damage is reduced. Likewise, shooting something smaller grants a damage multiplier.

If an Infantryman tries to shoot:
-- an infantryman, his weapon inflicts normal damage
-- a power armor, his weapon inflicts 50% normal damage
-- a tank, his weapons inflicts 25% normal damage

If a Power Armor tries to shoot:
-- an infantryman, his weapon inflicts 150% normal damage
-- a power armor, his weapon inflicts normal damage
-- a tank, his weapon inflicts 50% normal damage

If a tank tries to shoot:
-- an infantryman, his weapon inflicts 200% normal damage
-- a power armor, his weapon inflicts 150% normal damage
-- a tank, his weapon inflicts normal damage

This is intended as a band-aid solution to make Tanks and Giant Robots tougher and more lethal without re-writing the stats on every single one of them.

See, I'm fine with this too. There are a number of ways to deal with this. Short of that, I have real trouble with the idea of a dozen guys with laser rifles winning a fight with a destroyer.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

*wonders what this static cost of off-site missile support is supposed to be, but fathoms the low cost of bots/borgs/PA in comparison to bots.

Well, I assumed a cost of 10M credits, which is pretty generous given that a man-portable medium range missiles (with reduced range but full damage) cost a mere 25,000 credits and the most expensive missiles for it cost 12,000 credits. I was figuring backup of 40 missiles, and I don't think it's reasonable to assume that adding to the range of the missiles (to give them typical ranges) and giving them a physical platform is going to increase the price ~6.8 times over. I suppose it *could*, but I don't think that's reasonable.

(Source: WI-40M Fire & Forget Super-Heavy Missile Launcher, pages 105-106 of Rifts: Mercenaries)

I would say sustainable long-range weaponry. The main asset the Skull-Smasher offers is its primary weapon, the Heavy Laser Cannon, because it has such nice range.

Meh. The Heavy Laser Cannon does as much as a JA-12 at the same range. Admittedly, it allows aimed shots, but give the JA-12 to a borg and the sustained damage output is the same.

Although missiles are always the bread-and-butter of long-range warfare, they're costly, so having long-ranged energy weapons on bots like this helps to cut the cost of battle. Plus there's no danger of running out of ammo.

I think the time value of money becomes an issue here. Missiles aren't THAT expensive and repairing robot vehicles is incredibly expensive.

If we look as the indefinite energy weaponry that bots/borgs/PA got, they just don't match that sweet 6K range.

The JA-12 does, and the Boom Gun greatly exceeds that range.

This benefit may not be present in every robot, of course, just talking about the Skull Smasher since it was brought up.

Certainly, and it affords *an* advantage, but the cost of missiles isn't that bad, and you can have 2312 guys equipped with missiles that do 2d6x10 damage with a 10 mile range for the same price as a single skull smasher.

Skull Smasher: 0
Horde of Goblins: 1

Another benefit would be surviving missile battles. A bunch of PA or skeletons will have individual MDC lower than the bot, and if they were ever tightly packed they could be taken out by missiles that hurt them all. A robot on the other hand, allows you to consolidate manpower into a single shell. There's no benefit to AoE weapons if the bot is alone (especially if you ignore my advocation that AoE should hit non-main locations) and the bot has mini-missiles stored up to defend itself from enemy volleys.

That's why you don't pack your troops very tightly.

Borgs OToH have crazy armor, so the main issue there is that not having to sacrifice your humanity thing. But what is that armor protecting in terms of offensive capability?

1D6x10 sustained damage with a 6000' range in the form of a JA-12.

Which CS bot has LRMs? The only bot I remember seeing them on is the Triax Devastator. CWC had them on the Firestorm fortress and Talon fighter, plus there was the Nightwing fighter and missileAPC in Mercs.

I thought one did, but I can't find it. Unless someone else knows of it, consider my comment to have been amended, accordingly.

Mea culpa!

I guess MRMs is a good question, something to deal with from the outset of Rifts since the Enforcer had them. I think perhaps having them on a bot made it easier to move your missile launcher around or something?

I'm thinking missile platforms would be better. I can definitely see mini-missiles and even short range missiles, but MRMs or bigger? Not really.

That's a benefit I understand from playing Tribes 2 but I got the impression in Rifts that a pilot could do both simultaneously... or at least it's a bit vague.

Even if they can, you have to compare against the number of people you can equip for the same price.

Like if we think of fighter jets or flying units, the impression is usually that they are maintaining some kind of speed and mobility whilst firing. Maybe not the impression we get of things like robots or tanks though I guess.

Meh...I give the pilot gunnery and dodging actions. For that matter, can a tank even dodge?

Hm, one of those times a GB or Ulti-Max pilot might want to argue on the "robot" interpretation of their PA with the GM I guess.

:lol"

1500 MPH means it travels at about 0.4 miles per second, so at 30 miles it's going to take 72 seconds to arrive, whereas at 5 miles it'll only take 12 seconds to arrive. To put it differently, would we spend 75M on a whole stinkin' lot of jets to make them arrive 1 minute faster than some that are far more easily defended?

Theoretically, if a missile begins from farther-off, it would be sooner detected by RADAR and similar giving a longer response time to fire missiles or shots to take it down.

How much longer time, though? Also, if we follow some interpretations of the game rules (not mine though), mini missiles should't even appear on the radar of a grounded PA when the missile is fired from relatively close range because they won't go high enough to be detected.

If it's coming from 1000' away, you'll have almost no time to shoot (if it actually got to 2010mph in that short distance, I think I'd only let Juicers, Crazies, psychics with sixth sense, or the like react). If it's coming from 100 miles away and your radar reaches to 25 miles, you have 54 seconds (call it 1 minute/four rounds) to detect it, figure out that it's targeting you and not an enemy, aim at it, and shoot it/them down. A person in standard CS power armor that only has a 10 mile range has just over 1 round to do all that (18 seconds...and I'd round it off to a...well, round).

...BUT...I'd give them another vehicle operating elsewhere with radar they can use to piggyback.

RP-wise I think the GM is allowed some flexibility to fudge this since we don't have any clear rules for it. Players may sometimes be given a 2nd action to shoot down a missile (or a second missile) least in HU (super-speedsters can even get 4 shots) not sure about rifts.

A second (or more) shot against something close? Never. Against something far away? Absolutely. Remember the minuses for shooting at something going that fast, though.

If we look at things fired from near their end-range, even assuming max speed the entire way, a 2010mph LRM (2948 feet per second) will only go 44 220 feet (8.375 miles) per melee round. That means if it was going the full 1800 miles it would take over 214 melee rounds to do so, meaning a lot of scramble time to fire a bunch of smart bombs toward the incoming LRM to shoot it down, or at least prep your bots to lock onto it as soon as it gets close.

WHOOPS! You're right! I was assuming 1500mph! It's ~33% faster than that (adjusted some numbers above accordingly).

Your radar isn't likely to reach anywhere NEAR the full distance, though. Even the big CS bots only go to 30 miles. I'd give 'em four rounds to react overall, and when it comes to using weapons to defend against it, they'd only have about 1/2 round to react, because that's how far the weapons will reach.

Since most Rifts takes place in close-quarter combat, considerations like this are usually overlooked. In long-range combat, issues like this (not to mention passing RADAR skill rolls, inter-communication between the long-range RADAR operators and missile-gunners if they are not the same person, etc) would be critical.

I would think the value in having multiple launchers is more critical defensively than offensively though, because by having many launchers you can have more of a defensive ring to make sure your defensive missiles can be launched in adequate time to intercept incoming ones, especially if you have to defend population centers.

Radar limitations are a problem here. It's a very good point, though. I think I'd use aircraft with hordes of mini-missiles to take on this job.

Is why 'damage soak' rules would be pretty helpful, the problem is just deciding on how to calculate it. A "subtract 1 MD per 10 MDC you have" kind of rule would mean that one of those 1d6 Wilks pistols simply couldn't harm something with more than 59 MDC, for example. Could be adjusted to 1 per 20, 1 per 50, as needed depending on balance desired.

I like this one, too.

/Sub

[Raze_7]

Well, there are some rules for artillery in Free Quebec, when they mention the Taurus Glitterboys.

[ShadowLogan]

This is why I've toyed with the idea of a "scale" factor for Rifts. Something to effect of:
1) Infantry size
2) Power Armor, Full Cyborg size
3) Robot, Tank size

I've thought of the same thing, however I lump the PA/Borg in with the Infantry class, and put a class above Robot/Vehicle size to cover the super-ships/vehicles (like Starships, Naval Warships, etc).

I came to the conclusion that PA/Borg should be grouped with Infantry because they have comparable total MDC/mass ratios (consistently score >1 values, where 'bot/vehicle are <1 values). It also helped that there is some easily identified examples of overlap in weapons pushing for them to be in the same category.

The main issue I had, and still have is how to (easily) handle creatures since they have values that run all over the MDC/mass ratio scale. Tech is surprisingly consistent in this regard in the large sample pool I pulled from (RT1E and 2E, Macross2, and a decent % of the available Rifts titles at the time), placing similar values with similar things.

I actually like the idea in CB1r about increasing the damage from MD missiles and explosives when converting to SDC, but applying it to MDC instead. That tends to make missiles far more lethal and realistic. Though IIRC it excepted grenades and mini-missiles. So other full-size weapons might also benefit from this modifier.

[kaid]

Which means, for instance that you don't need fancy shelters and lengthy decontamination procedures if your in an NBC war. Which infantry and PA do.

Meh. This isn't so bad if the armor is environmental. You either have the same limitations with a robot vehicle...or do you really think you can't get the problems exiting a robot vehicle? In fact, the robot vehicle might actually complicate things. It'll be bigger and will have a higher number of nooks and crannies to clean.

/Sub

My point (that was my quote not kaids) was that if there was an NBC war, a crew in a large robot or tank can more or less live in their vehicle (some of which explicitly are set up for long term occupation). Which means that they don't have to worry about the decon until afterword's. Where as the infantry has to decontaminate every time they get in or out of their armor, plus they need shelters for their sleeping, sheltered mess areas.....
It may not seem like a huge issue....but if someone is using NBC weapons then it becomes a major issue very, very quickly.

It also is nice vs supernatural critters. Take vampires it is more than a bit of an advantage that your vehicles crew can sleep in an environmentally sealed compartment that they can neither mistform into to get at the crew nor mind control people inside as most forms of psychic attacks of this nature do not effect people in robot vehicles.

Also with the minion wars there are some NASTY plagues lurking out from hell pits and many of which are horribly debilitating so people fighting in those environments having a fully EBA sealed robot with built in sleeping quarters is a SERIOUS selling feature once people realize how bad those demon plagues are.

[kaid]

Heavy woods yea air is the only way to not be impaired. Even on foot heavy wooded terrain is a pain to move threw. Adding size of giant robots and PA it would be worse. They might have the power to make a path but doing so would be slow and make lots of noise. Most off road vehicles can handle light woods just fine. Mountain terrain you would have issues with the terrain may not hold heavy equipment movements unless you are on some natural road. Cities the issue could be falling into sewer system or tunnels for heavy and high impact vehicles.

Hover tanks in rifts would do better In swampy terrain and maybe urban than giant robots, and tracked vehicles. By using a variety of gear you always have something that you can use. Tanks typically being cheaper than assault robots are a way to get more of the affect of giant robots at a lower cost. (Cost wise thou the focus of rifts combat makes smaller units better than big units, but that is more of a affect of rules than reflection of technology.)

Kay, not sure what this has to do with my posts, but why not. Robots can **** slap trees out of their way. They have hands with MD inflicting attacks. Aren't that many MDC trees out there and if you're in that kind of situation, you got bigger problems.

If I'm sneaking, I'd deploy flight armor, Side winder SAMAS with a Wild Weasel SAMAS assigned to each squad. This provides extreme mobility in any terrain, and allows for a number of the benefits I outlined in my first post.

The trees may not be MD, but doing that much damage to them does not necessarily knock them down. Slam a truck into a big tree and it'll do more damage than the tree has, but it won't knock the tree down.

/Sub

That is why I said would slow them down. basically they are going to get stopped at every tree and have to smash it to a pulp or cut them down. Slow boring as heck and they are going to hear you quite a ways away. Or you can use plasma cannons start a forest fire and wait for a path to burn threw.

Have you guys ever seen a bulldozer "remove" trees? The bulldozer barely even slows down for a 3-foot diameter tree.

There's probably video on youtube of it.

--flatline

One thing I would note is even in modern day one of the first commercial vehicles that moves by walking was designed specifically for forestry usage as a way to get to lumber without having to bulldoze huge paths through forests.

Having hand and arms would only add to that advantage due to their size and strength a robot going through woods would be like a human going through them in a lot of ways. Able to side step and pick paths and step over things or simply push stuff out of its ways without having to come to a complete stop. And a karate chop from a robot vehicle would easily smash any non supernatural tree with one punch. Also consider the long legs of a robot many robots are 20-30 feet tall There are a lot of small trees they can simply walk over without any impediment at all.

In a world where there are next to no major roads left and most of the world has returned to wilderness ability to navigate forests/rivers/streams especially in the midwest of the US is a huge benefit. If the farms go fallow and the forrests return most of wisconsin/MN/MI would be totally impassable to tanks unless the tanks were literally ground to a near halt and were actively in road building mode which would slow their speed to nothing as they punch roads through what would in effect be old growth forests.

[Blue_Lion]

One thing I would note is even in modern day one of the first commercial vehicles that moves by walking was designed specifically for forestry usage as a way to get to lumber without having to bulldoze huge paths through forests.

Having hand and arms would only add to that advantage due to their size and strength a robot going through woods would be like a human going through them in a lot of ways. Able to side step and pick paths and step over things or simply push stuff out of its ways without having to come to a complete stop. And a karate chop from a robot vehicle would easily smash any non supernatural tree with one punch. Also consider the long legs of a robot many robots are 20-30 feet tall There are a lot of small trees they can simply walk over without any impediment at all.

In a world where there are next to no major roads left and most of the world has returned to wilderness ability to navigate forests/rivers/streams especially in the midwest of the US is a huge benefit. If the farms go fallow and the forrests return most of wisconsin/MN/MI would be totally impassable to tanks unless the tanks were literally ground to a near halt and were actively in road building mode which would slow their speed to nothing as they punch roads through what would in effect be old growth forests.

Wow so wrong in so many ways.

The roll of a harvester weather wheeled, tracked or walking is not to avoid having to bulldoze but to gather wood. Bulldozing a path would ruin the wood they where out to harvest. So your statement is wrong as the vehicle you mentioned still needs to cut down and clear a path, but is done instead of bulldozing to harvest the wood but takes longer than simply clearing a path by knocking down all trees.

A 20-30 foot tall robot would not be able to step over most trees in a forest. The average tree in a forest is way over 10' tall.

Size actually would change how a giant robot would move threw the forest.
Typically when a human walks thought the woods he is under most tree branches but would need to duck under some low hanging branches. A 20-30 tall robot would have to travel through the branches or clearings so the movement is significantly different. Although similar to having to pull out a machete to clear a path threw jungle is nothing like how a human can travel threw a forest. Typically in light forest you can fairly easy avoid branches around human height but a giant robot would be traveling thought branches. In addition Giant robots require wider much wider spaces to move through making it impossible squeeze threw heavy woodlands like a person on foot can.

[Jefffar]

In WW2, using much less powerful engines than those in modern tanks, it was found that tanks did well in forests. The strategic surprise this caused was one of the factors responsible for the fall of France and the early German success in the Battle of the Bulge.

[torjones]

One mistake being made here seems to be that the JA-12 only has a 4000' range on its laser, not 6000'. Oh, and the damage is 1d6*10+10... sometimes that extra +10 really helps...

Other than that, I tend to agree with most of what's said here, though I tend to think that robots and tanks would have an easier time of getting through forests than some here, I don't think its as easy as some are making it out to being. I do think that most giant robots could simply kick the base of a tree and watch the tree fall over, or if holding on to the tree farther up, simply guide it to fall where the pilot wanted it to. That still leaves a stump that needs to be navigated over by tanks, but it's now easier than having to deal with the whole tree, just don't high-center your tank/vehicle. Yes, it means a couple extra minutes of work to get the robot to the front of the convoy every time you need to clear a tree and to do so, but I don't see any SDC tree being able to stand up to even a power armor, let alone a giant robot.

As for the "The SDC only kills the target" After the target tree is dead, it's rather "House" like I think... If I shoot an SDC house with an MD laser gun, there isn't much house left, and only portions of it may remain standing. It's certainly not still habitable. If that 40 year old tree has 300 SDC and I 'kill' it with 20 MD, I seriously doubt that the tree is still standing there in my way. I've just vaporized a goodly portion of it, the rest of the tree is going to be busy for the next few seconds falling on me and my buddies. Either using power armor or giant robots to move the remains out of the way or a few more blasts with my laser gun to vaporize the rest of it, and the entire convoy can now continue on unimpeded by Mr. Tree. If the stump remains a problem, I don't see it existing after another laser blast or two...

The modern military uses Detcord for a lot of this same kind of thing, I don't see why the military of the future couldn't use something similar (current price for detcord is about 5$ per foot and is sold on 1000' spools). I'm sure that there are even MDC variants available, though I don't recall ever seeing it in print.

[glitterboy2098]

In WW2, using much less powerful engines than those in modern tanks, it was found that tanks did well in forests. The strategic surprise this caused was one of the factors responsible for the fall of France and the early German success in the Battle of the Bulge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4roHOw6hkc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9yrcpG6lTU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdhewPo0Ur8

[Blue_Lion]

In WW2, using much less powerful engines than those in modern tanks, it was found that tanks did well in forests. The strategic surprise this caused was one of the factors responsible for the fall of France and the early German success in the Battle of the Bulge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4roHOw6hkc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9yrcpG6lTU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdhewPo0Ur8

Well guess that disproves the myth about tanks being unable to cross wood line.
Truthfully I think that tanks and bots can go allot of places but there may be some terrain that one is better than the other.

Hover tanks would likely be better crossing water, mud and snow.

Tracked tanks would do good in muddy and snowy terrain.

Giant bots can step over low lying obstacles (not trees) and deal with tank ditches. Snow and ice may have varying results deepening on how slippery the terrain. (I do not think a giant robot can scale a cliff do it its weight causing the surface to break and size of its hands making it harder to find grip locations.)

[glitterboy2098]

woods really slow down a tank's overall movement (you have to navigate your way through the clearer bits, and pushing trees and stuff out of the way is slow), plus it increases the chances of the tank throwing a track or otherwise having some mechanical issue, as well as majorly restrict your vision range (and thus your engagement range), which is why tankers prefer more open terrain.

plus, when people think of 'forest' i suspect they think of something like Fangorn from LOTR or the redwoods.. massive thick tree's closely packed without a lot of underbrush. when most forests, even in old growth forest, the big thick tree's are fairly widely spaced, and there is a lot of underbrush in between and small tree's that make it look denser than it is.

[Blue_Lion]

woods really slow down a tank's overall movement (you have to navigate your way through the clearer bits, and pushing trees and stuff out of the way is slow), plus it increases the chances of the tank throwing a track or otherwise having some mechanical issue, as well as majorly restrict your vision range (and thus your engagement range), which is why tankers prefer more open terrain.

plus, when people think of 'forest' i suspect they think of something like Fangorn from LOTR or the redwoods.. massive thick tree's closely packed without a lot of underbrush. when most forests, even in old growth forest, the big thick tree's are fairly widely spaced, and there is a lot of underbrush in between and small tree's that make it look denser than it is.

Woods also would slow down a Giant robot and hinder its line of sight. Hiding the trip hazards and the robot may take damage from falls. So I would think most Giant robot operators would rather have open terrain so they could use full range and speed.(Most people would rather have open terrain for travel) You are also making the mistake of assuming tanks in rifts means tracked tanks, there are probably as many hover tanks on the market as tracked.

I know what forest look like been in lots of them growing up and while in the military. (Not allot of money so hunting and fishing was how we had to put food on the table at times.) I also know what logging industry managed forest look like.(Typically a managed forest has more even spaced trees and at times they form straight lines.) Typically a tree in a natural forest is 20'+ tall (only the youngest trees in the forest are under 10' tall) if the trees are to close together typically one gets crowded out.

[Subjugator]

The trees those tanks were going through were eight to ten inches thick. I was thinking of trees that are thirty inches thick.

[The Artist Formerly]

MD is a damage absorption mechanic, it's just that it's a very basic one and the game world did not make proper use of it.

If you look at the 1st Edition of the Robotech RPG, specifically the Macross era main book, you'll see MDC working right. Infantry and infantry weapons are more or less universally SDC while tanks, mecha, giant aliens and the weapons designed to kill them are MDC. Contrast this to Rifts when every character packs a handgun capable of demolishing a car on a single shot.

I remember those books. MD didn't bother me until I discovered the Gallant H-90 which could burst for crazy damage (for an infantry weapons).

--flatline

Yeah, the Southern Cross and Invid Invasion books slowly turned up the MDC at the infantry level without increasing it so much at the mecha level. As a result they are very comparable with the early (and contemporary) Rifts books.

But the first Robotech book proves it's not MDC that's broken, its how much is given to things that don't deserve it.

In the press to keep every class at least tangentally relivent. Everyone needs MDC level weapons. Kevin doesn't play enough to realize his failings.

[torjones]

Yeah, the Southern Cross and Invid Invasion books slowly turned up the MDC at the infantry level without increasing it so much at the mecha level. As a result they are very comparable with the early (and contemporary) Rifts books.

But the first Robotech book proves it's not MDC that's broken, its how much is given to things that don't deserve it.

In the press to keep every class at least tangentally relivent. Everyone needs MDC level weapons. Kevin doesn't play enough to realize his failings.

I don't agree entirely... Maybe some people don't remember watching the series, but those weapons were given to ground troops because that's the way it was in the anime. It really did go from needing a 40' tall transforming war machine to only needing the H-90 in the show. I don't remember any Man Vs Mecha combat in Southern Cross, but I don't believe it was shown, so the very light MD weapons shown there would make some sense (1d4 to 2d6). Come the Invid Invasion, Cyclones were the weapons used against the 40' tall mecha, and when you got your hands on a 40' mecha of your own, it was a certified ass-kicker. Why? Because that's the way it was in the anime.

Rifts comes along and it tries to capture the post apocalyptic feel that MOSPEDA had, and I think did so rather well. Most Giant Robots are approximately a match for an adventuring party of 4-6 players because that's the metric that's still being used to measure things by. It's that way in nearly every game system I've ever seen. It's been that way since DnD was published in 1974.

[Jefffar]

In WW2, using much less powerful engines than those in modern tanks, it was found that tanks did well in forests. The strategic surprise this caused was one of the factors responsible for the fall of France and the early German success in the Battle of the Bulge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4roHOw6hkc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9yrcpG6lTU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdhewPo0Ur8

Hey, no fair! The last one is an IFV and much less powerful than a true tank.

Oh wait, that just proves my point all the more.

[Nox Equites]

If tanks and other vehicles were given realistic ranges, you would fear them. A 200mm tank gun should exceed the range and damage of a boomgun. But the game is written for action movie style with personal combat being the norm in play.

As for utility of tanks people are missing details other than ground pressure and price. A "light" tank, you know only 20 tons, would be smaller than a Mk 5 APC, doesn't need the volume for infantry, and have similar MDC to both it and the UAR. At about 9 ft tall it has a low profile compared to the UAR meaning it can use cover more effectively to make up for inability to dodge. I chose 20 tons because that is in the same weight range as the mk 5 and UAR. Tanks have massive advantages in the traction department. With the right cables they can just pull structures down without needing weapons. A "medium" tank 30-40 tons will still be shorter in length than the mk 5 and only double the weight or so. This chassis size would be ideal for toys like boomguns because that much mass doesn't get bothered by the recoil. It also makes a fine MLRS platform. We know anything about that size can carry long range missiles. "hvy" tanks of 50-70 tons hold massive armor and its cheaper to fix than any bot with the potential to use the largest weapons on the battle field if you dream big enough/have the credits.

Ground pressure is still a major point in the favor of tanks. Powered armor will not be able to cross ice that a pickup truck, three times the weight or more, can easily manage. Sand dunes will hold up biped bots, and yet some conventional vehicles can race over them. If you can water seal a large bot you can water seal a tank so the fording issue is moot. And yes some mud will be crossable by tank as long as you don't slow down at all but the huge bot will be up to its waist in mud in moments.

And never forget the fear factor. A tank has no human face, that makes it a terrifying implacable foe. It is much harder to imagine the tank crew in fear because the tank is non-humanoid.

[The Artist Formerly]

Yeah, the Southern Cross and Invid Invasion books slowly turned up the MDC at the infantry level without increasing it so much at the mecha level. As a result they are very comparable with the early (and contemporary) Rifts books.

But the first Robotech book proves it's not MDC that's broken, its how much is given to things that don't deserve it.

In the press to keep every class at least tangentally relivent. Everyone needs MDC level weapons. Kevin doesn't play enough to realize his failings.

I don't agree entirely... Maybe some people don't remember watching the series, but those weapons were given to ground troops because that's the way it was in the anime. It really did go from needing a 40' tall transforming war machine to only needing the H-90 in the show. I don't remember any Man Vs Mecha combat in Southern Cross, but I don't believe it was shown, so the very light MD weapons shown there would make some sense (1d4 to 2d6). Come the Invid Invasion, Cyclones were the weapons used against the 40' tall mecha, and when you got your hands on a 40' mecha of your own, it was a certified ass-kicker. Why? Because that's the way it was in the anime.

Rifts comes along and it tries to capture the post apocalyptic feel that MOSPEDA had, and I think did so rather well. Most Giant Robots are approximately a match for an adventuring party of 4-6 players because that's the metric that's still being used to measure things by. It's that way in nearly every game system I've ever seen. It's been that way since DnD was published in 1974.

You make a fair point.

But it's still a failing as we scale up into war sims and combat roles beyond the basic adventure party.

[Kagashi]

Yeah, the Southern Cross and Invid Invasion books slowly turned up the MDC at the infantry level without increasing it so much at the mecha level. As a result they are very comparable with the early (and contemporary) Rifts books.

But the first Robotech book proves it's not MDC that's broken, its how much is given to things that don't deserve it.

In the press to keep every class at least tangentally relivent. Everyone needs MDC level weapons. Kevin doesn't play enough to realize his failings.

I don't agree entirely... Maybe some people don't remember watching the series, but those weapons were given to ground troops because that's the way it was in the anime. It really did go from needing a 40' tall transforming war machine to only needing the H-90 in the show. I don't remember any Man Vs Mecha combat in Southern Cross, but I don't believe it was shown, so the very light MD weapons shown there would make some sense (1d4 to 2d6). Come the Invid Invasion, Cyclones were the weapons used against the 40' tall mecha, and when you got your hands on a 40' mecha of your own, it was a certified ass-kicker. Why? Because that's the way it was in the anime.

Rifts comes along and it tries to capture the post apocalyptic feel that MOSPEDA had, and I think did so rather well. Most Giant Robots are approximately a match for an adventuring party of 4-6 players because that's the metric that's still being used to measure things by. It's that way in nearly every game system I've ever seen. It's been that way since DnD was published in 1974.

You make a fair point.

But it's still a failing as we scale up into war sims and combat roles beyond the basic adventure party.

I do not agree fully either. MDC was born out of the first edition Robotech as a result of what actually happened in the show. Up till then, SDC was the only level of damage capacity in any Palladium book. Just like how technology clearly steps up between Macross to Southern Cross to New Gen, MDC in the game shows a clear evolution as technology becomes smaller, more maneuverable, and more powerful than the previous level of technology. The smaller, more powerful New Gen equipment is needed to even wage war against the Invid in a resistance type environment. Had the Invid invaded in 2009 right after the launch of the SDF-1, Earth would never had been able to fight an effective resistance with 40 foot protoculture running robots and SDC dealing projectile side arms.

Robotech, unlike Rifts or Splicers, clearly shows a great mix of MDC and SDC and how the evolution of technology defines warfare. In Rifts and Splicers, MDC is just a way of life and everybody has it. In Robotech, you literally can take over a town wearing Southern Cross armor and wielding a laser pistol and rule with the power of a god (till the Invid show up in force). Although this was *supposed* to be the way in the Rifts Main Book, it clearly isnt after 30+ world books and multi source books.

However, to the original statement, yes, while Mecha did get smaller and more powerful in the later books (both 1st and 2nd ed), small arms and body armor advanced at a much faster rate than the pre-existing mecha category. But this is not an MDC problem, its a problem with Palladium in general where the first Rule of Palladium Physics states that an object twice the size but of the same tech level of any item can only have 50% more power than the smaller item. This rule existed in SDC games prior to Robotech 1st Ed as well.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't agree entirely... Maybe some people don't remember watching the series, but those weapons were given to ground troops because that's the way it was in the anime. It really did go from needing a 40' tall transforming war machine to only needing the H-90 in the show. I don't remember any Man Vs Mecha combat in Southern Cross, but I don't believe it was shown, so the very light MD weapons shown there would make some sense (1d4 to 2d6). Come the Invid Invasion, Cyclones were the weapons used against the 40' tall mecha, and when you got your hands on a 40' mecha of your own, it was a certified ass-kicker. Why? Because that's the way it was in the anime.

In the NG saga the H-90 is only shown able to kill the Invid Enforcer (1E, 2E Solider, Series Urban Enforcer), the team is shown to volley multiple H-90s on Invid Trooper-class mecha to no avail. If you wanted to kill Invid mecha (Scouts on up) in the show, you went to the EP-37/40 on the Cyclones (and Invid mecha aren't in the 40ft range, they are in the 20-30ft range at best).

In the Masters Saga (Southern Cross), members of the 15th are shown to engage Bioroids on a few occasions while wielding infantry weapons AND unarmored (no body armor) and do so successfully (Bioroids are about 20ft tall, an Invid Urban Enforcer is at best 7ft IINM). The funny thing is that those same weapons are shown to be used to engage other infantry sized/unarmored targets.

I do not agree fully either. MDC was born out of the first edition Robotech as a result of what actually happened in the show.

That it was born out of 1E RT I can agree with. However I have to question if it really models what happens in the entire 85ep run, or if it could not have been done better utilizing the SDC system or one with minor tweaks (like rules for Penetration Values being included as standard, which are lacking in a lot of SDC titles I am familiar with) rather than going with the MDC level of technology (I do not object to using MD as short hand/unit prefix for large SDC values much like how 1 mile = ~5,000ft, or metric with 1liter =1000ml, etc).

Now some of my skepticism for needing MDC may be related to the assigned game stats in this department versus what is actually depicted.

[Glistam]

Did anyone bring up the strength of Giant Robots when compared to Power Armor? Their lift/carry values are double that of Supernatural Strength, while Power Armor tends to have both a lower P.S. and use a multiplier for lift/carry that makes them about half as strong.

I'm not saying it justifies the cost, but it IS a pretty significant difference I think.