Limits on TW items - spells of legend?

[Subjugator]

OK - I've not read enough on this for a while so...what are the limits on what can be developed into a TW item?

I've suggested things like a TW e-clip recharger, but it occurs to me that a Metropolis item would probably be worth more than almost every other type of TW item ever created. Similarly, Metamorphosis: Dragon would be pretty nice, as would a few others. Anti-Magic Cloud would make for an obviously nice item, but I think it's a given that it could be done (unless others disagree?). Close Rift? Wow...I don't think it could be done, since it has a permanent PPE cost associated with it.

So what're your thoughts, folks...could it be done*?

I'm looking for canonical responses here; I don't mind if you give a house rule response, but please note them as such.

I was going to mention the items being overpowered as being sufficiently obvious as to not need comment, but it occurs to me that they need not be game breakers, so long as they are sufficiently restricted. Consider that Splynncryth can come up with as many greatest rune weapons as he wants, and he's not changed the universe by so doing. I don't know that sickeningly powerful TW items have to be any different.

/Sub

*Note that I do not ask if someone would do it, but simply whether or not it is within the capacity of a high level Techno-Wizard. I agree that most mages would be very unlikely to put a spells of legend on a TW item (at least, not one they make available to others). I simply ask whether or not it CAN be done.

[smashed]

I don't think I've ever seen any canonical proof that any TW device have used spells of legend. Though they might be incorporated into some of the UWW ships.
Though its not like there are any rules saying you can't use spells of legend.

So like all TW items are, it ultimately goes to the GM on how they want to play them. Personally for me, I would allow it, but to correctly design and build the device would be a long-term goal for the TW. Or like I do with many of the Spells of Legend anyway, incorporate it as a plot device during game play.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's nothing barring it, so yeah, it's possible to use Spells of Legend.
But they're Spells of Legend... so TW devices that used those spells would likely be rarer than Rune Weapons.

[Sureshot]

As KC has said they can and should be used as TW weapons. Keep them super rare. As in multiple magic factions will dump everything to out and find one. I can see Dunscon trying to get his hands on one.

[Shark_Force]

from a strict rules perspective, it is impossible to make a spell of legend into a TW device. they have no associated gem to use, and the formulas involved incorporate the spell's level, which spells of legend do not have.

i'm not saying it's impossible or anything, i'm just saying that it's impossible with the rules we have access to. that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't rules for it in-universe... but if there are, we don't know about them

[drewkitty ~..~]

There's nothing barring it, so yeah, it's possible to use Spells of Legend.
But they're Spells of Legend... so TW devices that used those spells would likely be rarer than Rune Weapons.

Because the TW magic item creation rules in RUE require the spell to have Levels they can't be used "as is" to make rifts' SoL spells into TW magic items.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's nothing barring it, so yeah, it's possible to use Spells of Legend.
But they're Spells of Legend... so TW devices that used those spells would likely be rarer than Rune Weapons.

Because the TW magic item creation rules require the spell to have Levels they can't be used "as is" to make rifts' SoL spells into TW magic items.

Anti-Magic Cloud.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There's nothing barring it, so yeah, it's possible to use Spells of Legend.
But they're Spells of Legend... so TW devices that used those spells would likely be rarer than Rune Weapons.

Because the TW magic item creation rules require the spell to have Levels they can't be used "as is" to make rifts' SoL spells into TW magic items.

Anti-Magic Cloud.

Note, I used the phrasing 'Rifts' SoL' for a good reason, the Anti-magic cloud and the Barrier of Thoth are SoL that have been given levels since their SoL days of Sol meaning being very <expletive> rare. As such I was referring to those SoL in the Rifts books that do not have a Level.

[eliakon]

There's nothing barring it, so yeah, it's possible to use Spells of Legend.
But they're Spells of Legend... so TW devices that used those spells would likely be rarer than Rune Weapons.

Because the TW magic item creation rules require the spell to have Levels they can't be used "as is" to make rifts' SoL spells into TW magic items.

Anti-Magic Cloud.

Its a level 11 spell in Rifts (which is where TWs exist)

THAT said, I don't see where the spells level is a variable in the TW rules. I see the device level but not the spells level. Which would seem to allow for SoL's to be used, though they would be very, very rare.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's nothing barring it, so yeah, it's possible to use Spells of Legend.
But they're Spells of Legend... so TW devices that used those spells would likely be rarer than Rune Weapons.

Because the TW magic item creation rules require the spell to have Levels they can't be used "as is" to make rifts' SoL spells into TW magic items.

Anti-Magic Cloud.

Note, I used the phrasing 'Rifts' SoL' for a good reason, the Anti-magic cloud and the Barrier of Thoth are SoL that have been given levels since their SoL days of Sol meaning being very <expletive> rare. As such I was referring to those SoL in the Rifts books that do not have a Level.

There's no such thing as "Spells of Legend that do not have a level."
There is only such thing as "Spells of Legend that do not have a level listed."

Anti-Magic Cloud was a "Spell of Legend."
Then it was discovered to be real, and it was categorized as a level 11 spell.
It didn't BECOME a level 11 spell. The nature of the spell and its effects all stayed the same.
It's just that once the spell was able to be analyzed, then the public knew what the appropriate level was.

Same goes with any other Spell of Legend; just because it doesn't have a level listed doesn't mean that it doesn't have a level.
It just means that we don't know what that level IS.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Has none.....has none listed......dose not matter which...they still can't be used with the RUE TW magic item creation text 'as is' for the same reason.

Old SoL spell levels......I said Given because they were SoL before there were Levels. You know like in the old 'Spells Per Day magic rules' days. Yes, most often I chose my words carefully.

[Mack]

OK - I've not read enough on this for a while so...what are the limits on what can be developed into a TW item?

I've suggested things like a TW e-clip recharger, but it occurs to me that a Metropolis item would probably be worth more than almost every other type of TW item ever created. Similarly, Metamorphosis: Dragon would be pretty nice, as would a few others. Anti-Magic Cloud would make for an obviously nice item, but I think it's a given that it could be done (unless others disagree?). Close Rift? Wow...I don't think it could be done, since it has a permanent PPE cost associated with it.

So what're your thoughts, folks...could it be done*?

I'm looking for canonical responses here; I don't mind if you give a house rule response, but please note them as such.

I was going to mention the items being overpowered as being sufficiently obvious as to not need comment, but it occurs to me that they need not be game breakers, so long as they are sufficiently restricted. Consider that Splynncryth can come up with as many greatest rune weapons as he wants, and he's not changed the universe by so doing. I don't know that sickeningly powerful TW items have to be any different.

/Sub

*Note that I do not ask if someone would do it, but simply whether or not it is within the capacity of a high level Techno-Wizard. I agree that most mages would be very unlikely to put a spells of legend on a TW item (at least, not one they make available to others). I simply ask whether or not it CAN be done.

Conceptually, I see nothing from preventing a Grand Master Techno-Wizard from doing so. From an in-game perspective, I'd make it the culmination of the TW's life work.

The GM would have to decide what gem is appropriate, but that should be pretty straightforward to extrapolate based on the existing gem list (when in doubt, pick one that's expensive & rare). I'd also assign some wicked-high skill penalties to reflect the many years of research, trial & error, failed prototypes, and vaporized lab assistants.

(Note - Keep in mind the TW creation "rules" in RUE are just guidelines, and are intended to be adjusted.)

EDIT - I could also see a minor war erupting. One group wants to steal the secret, another wants to horde it, yet another thinks it cheapens real magic and should be destroyed, balances of power are upset... and our innocent little players are caught in the middle.

[Killer Cyborg]

Has none.....has none listed......dose not matter which...they still can't be used with the RUE TW magic item creation text 'as is' for the same reason.

What reason is that...?

[eliakon]

There's nothing barring it, so yeah, it's possible to use Spells of Legend.
But they're Spells of Legend... so TW devices that used those spells would likely be rarer than Rune Weapons.

Because the TW magic item creation rules require the spell to have Levels they can't be used "as is" to make rifts' SoL spells into TW magic items.

Anti-Magic Cloud.

Note, I used the phrasing 'Rifts' SoL' for a good reason, the Anti-magic cloud and the Barrier of Thoth are SoL that have been given levels since their SoL days of Sol meaning being very <expletive> rare. As such I was referring to those SoL in the Rifts books that do not have a Level.

There's no such thing as "Spells of Legend that do not have a level."
There is only such thing as "Spells of Legend that do not have a level listed."

Anti-Magic Cloud was a "Spell of Legend."
Then it was discovered to be real, and it was categorized as a level 11 spell.
It didn't BECOME a level 11 spell. The nature of the spell and its effects all stayed the same.
It's just that once the spell was able to be analyzed, then the public knew what the appropriate level was.

Same goes with any other Spell of Legend; just because it doesn't have a level listed doesn't mean that it doesn't have a level.
It just means that we don't know what that level IS.

Technically that's not exactly true. The spell in RUE is level 11 and always has been. The spell in the other game lines may, or may not be the same spell because....well they are other game lines and their spells are subtlely different. That is why they are 'compatable with' not 'sourcebooks for' (for a good example go look at the various games and editions versions of Golem for instance)
So Vicious Circle may have a level...or it may be outside the normal level strictures. With out further published information any statement that the listed SoL's have levels is a personal inference/house rule and not actual canon.

[Killer Cyborg]

Technically that's not exactly true. The spell in RUE is level 11 and always has been. The spell in the other game lines may, or may not be the same spell because....well they are other game lines and their spells are subtlely different.

Any instances of a spell being one level in one setting, but another level in a different setting?

With out further published information any statement that the listed SoL's have levels is a personal inference/house rule and not actual canon.

No more so than any statement that they do NOT have levels.

[FatherMorpheus]

Depending on how close you want to follow the rules, both RMB and RUE have the already mentioned issue of no gems listed for Spells of Legend. RUE has the further issue of no spell spell to plug into the equations for to costs of things.

All of this can be overcome by work between the players and GMs in the given situation. If this is part of the story, it is all hand waved in the back ground as the GM uses it for the scene and moves on. If a player wants to try and build something using a Spell of Legend, then that becomes a conversation between the GM and player.

For me (as a GM), it would depend on the power scale of the game I was running. If it is a lower power or even moderate powered game, then this type of thing wouldn't be possible in the context of the game. If it was one of those no holds bar high end games, sure why not. I would make sure there were some clear goals on getting components were required to do it. Then perhaps build a few stories around how the players could acquire the need items.

[Killer Cyborg]

Depending on how close you want to follow the rules, both RMB and RUE have the already mentioned issue of no gems listed for Spells of Legend.

Care to elaborate?

RUE has the further issue of no spell spell to plug into the equations for to costs of things.

Somebody mentioned that spell level isn't plugged in (that they could find), only caster level.
Don't have my books, so I can't say.

Either way, I don't see any reason to believe that Spells of Legend don't have spell levels.
We know of at least one that does, in fact: Anti-Magic Cloud.

If a player wants to try and build something using a Spell of Legend, then that becomes a conversation between the GM and player.

Agreed.
Same as any other TW device, only hopefully with more care due to the increased power involved.

[FatherMorpheus]

Depending on how close you want to follow the rules, both RMB and RUE have the already mentioned issue of no gems listed for Spells of Legend.

Care to elaborate?

Opps, quick typing, others already mentioned that RUE and RMB don't have gems listed for any of the Spells of Legend. RUE p133 has the Gem TW Reference List. This is the list of gems to spells for creating TW items. In many ways this is just a reprinting of the Atlantis Stone Master gems list, but I don't believe any of the Spells of Legend are listed within it.

RUE has the further issue of no spell spell to plug into the equations for to costs of things.

Somebody mentioned that spell level isn't plugged in (that they could find), only caster level.
Don't have my books, so I can't say.

Either way, I don't see any reason to believe that Spells of Legend don't have spell levels.
We know of at least one that does, in fact: Anti-Magic Cloud.

Well crap, I just re-read them myself. I did get device level and caster level tied into spell level. Never mind about this statement then. You only need PPE from the spell, which in the case of most Spells of Legend is a great deal.

I will say, because of the various books that don't list Anti-Magic Cloud as a Spell of Legend any longer I wouldn't consider it one any longer.

I don't think Spells of Legend have 'levels' really. They are above and beyond the normal magical understanding, so levels don't make sense for them. Not that apparently it matters for the conversation at hand.

If a player wants to try and build something using a Spell of Legend, then that becomes a conversation between the GM and player.

Agreed.
Same as any other TW device, only hopefully with more care due to the increased power involved.[/quote]

[Killer Cyborg]

Anti-magic Cloud isn't a Spell of Legend anymore, because it's no longer just a legend.
Since it's no longer just a legend, but something that could be learned through a guild or such, it's level is now listed.
But that doesn't mean that it had no level when it was a more obscure spell. In fact the opposite is indicated.

[eliakon]

Technically that's not exactly true. The spell in RUE is level 11 and always has been. The spell in the other game lines may, or may not be the same spell because....well they are other game lines and their spells are subtlely different.

Any instances of a spell being one level in one setting, but another level in a different setting?

Yes actually, I recall finding a few spells in different levels in different lines when I was making my master list. I will have to scour it and find the actual examples.

[Killer Cyborg]

Back to the gems thing... Do The RMB and RUE list gems for every single spell that can be incorporated into a TW device...?
If so, I don't remember such a comprehensive list.

[FatherMorpheus]

Back to the gems thing... Do The RMB and RUE list gems for every single spell that can be incorporated into a TW device...?
If so, I don't remember such a comprehensive list.

RUE p133 has the Gem TW Reference List. It is fairly comprehensive for Invocations. It even has several Elemental spells.

[The Beast]

Technically that's not exactly true. The spell in RUE is level 11 and always has been. The spell in the other game lines may, or may not be the same spell because....well they are other game lines and their spells are subtlely different.

Any instances of a spell being one level in one setting, but another level in a different setting?

I can only think of AMC. Prior to the RMB it was a SoL. In the RMB it was given the level and kept it in all settings since.

However after getting a spell spreadsheet from Kermit Spade (not his user name here, I can't remember that. ) I decided to add in all the spells from the other books. (He only did the ones in the BoM.) I was deliberately leaving out ones he already put in. (So basically the only version of AoI in the spreadsheet is the MDC one.) There were a few that I discovered he had already put in that were different levels. There's no way I'll be able to find them tonight though. Maybe if I gain the motivation this weekend I'll try looking one up for you. (Chocolate cake with chocolate icing would help. )

[Killer Cyborg]

Back to the gems thing... Do The RMB and RUE list gems for every single spell that can be incorporated into a TW device...?
If so, I don't remember such a comprehensive list.

RUE p133 has the Gem TW Reference List. It is fairly comprehensive for Invocations. It even has several Elemental spells.

Don't have my books, so I can't look it up.
But unless it's completely comprehensive, the a lack of listing Spells of Legend wouldn't really mean anything.

[Shark_Force]

it's pretty comprehensive. as far as i know, all standard invocations up to the time RUE was printed, and then it lists gems used for categories of magic (eg elemental, necromancy, temporal, i think ocean magic is in there) rather than by specific spell.

it doesn't go into every possible type of magic, but the spells of legend are standard invocation magic as far as i know.

Technically that's not exactly true. The spell in RUE is level 11 and always has been. The spell in the other game lines may, or may not be the same spell because....well they are other game lines and their spells are subtlely different.

Any instances of a spell being one level in one setting, but another level in a different setting?

Yes actually, I recall finding a few spells in different levels in different lines when I was making my master list. I will have to scour it and find the actual examples.

create zombie is *very* different in the nightbane game line. it isn't entirely clear whether they just don't know the same spell, or whether the spell simply works differently there, though. it was a deliberate effort on the part of the author to make the spell different iirc (i think they specifically mention it somewhere when they're describing how they wanted magic to feel different in nightbane than it feels in most of the other game lines), but i don't recall a crystal clear statement whether that's just a change in magic, or that they use a different spell with the same name.

[eliakon]

it's pretty comprehensive. as far as i know, all standard invocations up to the time RUE was printed, and then it lists gems used for categories of magic (eg elemental, necromancy, temporal, i think ocean magic is in there) rather than by specific spell.

it doesn't go into every possible type of magic, but the spells of legend are standard invocation magic as far as i know.

Its a pretty good list and covers almost all of the spells in the game at that time, but it is by no means a complete list of all the invocations in the Rifts line at the time of the printing of RUE. Let alone the issue that they have added more magic to the game, including schools of magic (such as space magic), that can explicitly be used in TW (they are mentioned as being used in TW space ships), with out telling us the gems for them or what the gems for some of the schools that were in the game at the time of the printing of RUE (Blue Flame and Koralyte spells leap to mind as do Shaman spells).
This pretty much tells us that the list is not all inclusive/exhaustive, and thus the simple fact that a spell is not on the list does nothing to demonstrate that it can not be put into a TW device, just that the exact gem will have to be decided by the GM.

[Subjugator]

Well, I've confirmed a few things.

The following spells are among those that explicitly have gems listed for use in the creation of TW items:

1. Anti-Magic Cloud (!!!)
2. Annihilate (!!!)
3. Void
4. Restoration
5. Close Rift (!!!)
6. Rift Triangular Defense System (!!!)

I think the question of 'too powerful' has been addressed. Clearly that's not the question.

/Sub

[FatherMorpheus]

Well, I've confirmed a few things.

The following spells are among those that explicitly have gems listed for use in the creation of TW items:

1. Anti-Magic Cloud (!!!)
2. Annihilate (!!!)
3. Void
4. Restoration
5. Close Rift (!!!)
6. Rift Triangular Defense System (!!!)

I think the question of 'too powerful' has been addressed. Clearly that's not the question.

/Sub

I believe all of those are leveled spells, which are standard Invocations now. While powerful, I'm not sure any of them stack up against the Spells of Legend. It also appears as if none of the spells of Legend in the Book of Magic have gem's listed.

[eliakon]

Well, I've confirmed a few things.

The following spells are among those that explicitly have gems listed for use in the creation of TW items:

1. Anti-Magic Cloud (!!!)
2. Annihilate (!!!)
3. Void
4. Restoration
5. Close Rift (!!!)
6. Rift Triangular Defense System (!!!)

I think the question of 'too powerful' has been addressed. Clearly that's not the question.

/Sub

I believe all of those are leveled spells, which are standard Invocations now. While powerful, I'm not sure any of them stack up against the Spells of Legend. It also appears as if none of the spells of Legend in the Book of Magic have gem's listed.

Which isn't all that relevant unless we are also ruling out Techno-Wizards using: African Ceremonial Magic, African Witch Spells, Blue Flame Magic, Circle Magic, Dolphin Magic, Korallyte Shaping, Nazcan Line Magic, Shamanistic Magic, Stone Magic, Wards, Whale Singing, and all the canon rifts invocation spells that existed Pre-Rue and did not get a gem.......

[Blue_Lion]

The limits on TW items are GM. The "rules " in RUE are really just a guideline. They even say the GM decides what the device does so if the GM wanted you item with a spell of legend could be glorified flash light.

[Killer Cyborg]

the list is not all inclusive/exhaustive, and thus the simple fact that a spell is not on the list does nothing to demonstrate that it can not be put into a TW device, just that the exact gem will have to be decided by the GM.

[Glistam]

I view that list of gems and spells in the RUE as "Here's what spells we've figured out so far that work with certain gems." I see it as a collection of current knowledge, not as a restriction of what's possible. So I could see adding a spell of Legend to a TW device.

[ShadowLogan]

from a strict rules perspective, it is impossible to make a spell of legend into a TW device. they have no associated gem to use, and the formulas involved incorporate the spell's level, which spells of legend do not have.

i'm not saying it's impossible or anything, i'm just saying that it's impossible with the rules we have access to. that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't rules for it in-universe... but if there are, we don't know about them

W/re to the Gem to use. This is the main stopping point of using a Spell of Legend though, what gem it requires. So canonically there is no official way to put all spells into a TW device.

However I do have to ask Where is the Spell level actually invoked though? I know there is a device level, but that is dictated by the TW and his/her level not the spell's level. I reviewed both the errata and RUE, but don't see anything that is influenced by the spell level.

[Shark_Force]

However I do have to ask Where is the Spell level actually invoked though? I know there is a device level, but that is dictated by the TW and his/her level not the spell's level. I reviewed both the errata and RUE, but don't see anything that is influenced by the spell level.

already been addressed earlier in the thread.

the short answer is "we remembered that part wrong".

[Glistam]

Looking at "similar" spells, here's where I'd consider starting with when experimenting which gems to use for the spells of legend:

• Barrier of Thoth: Diamond
• Blight of Ages: Star Sapphire or Ivory
• Blood and Thunder: Red Zircon
• Crimson Wall of Lictalon: Black Opal or Jade
• Doppleganger (Superior): Black Opal
• Hivemind: Black Opal
• Ley Line Resurrection: Red-Orange Agate
• Metropolis: Diamond or Black Garnet
• Mystic Quake: Garnet (any color except black) or Malachite
• Sanctuary: Lapis Lazuli or Black Opal
• The Slowness: Star Sapphire
• Steel Rain: Blue Zircon or Black Garnet
• Vicious Circle: Star Sapphire or Andnodite
• Warrior Horde: White Pearl

[Subjugator]

W/re to the Gem to use. This is the main stopping point of using a Spell of Legend though, what gem it requires. So canonically there is no official way to put all spells into a TW device.

Hm...yes, but I'd say this doesn't present itself as a canonical limitation. It simply presents itself as something as yet undefined.

For example, I don't think the book has rules on how much you'd be slowed down by trying to fly while carrying a 40' x 40' sail that's made of MD material, but that doesn't mean one cannot carry a 40' x 40' MD sail, nor does it mean one would not be slowed down by such (when in an atmosphere, that is).

/Sub