multi doubler modifiers logic

[Kagashi]

So...I used to think that people took advantage of multiple doublers for things like critical damage or attacks per melee by doubling something that was already doubled. Many people just continue to multiply the product of the previous bonus, and I never liked looking at it that way, rather I would only multiply the base damage (or number of attacks) over and over again. As each modifier just says "double damage" it is left up to the player and GM to determine what exactly is getting doubled.

For example, hitting somebody in the head from behind AND rolling a natural 20.

Munchkin view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage) = 80 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of rolling natural 20 (x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage)) = 160 damage

My view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) = 60 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) + x 2 of base damage (natural 20) = 80 damage

However, now I am reevaluating this...because what if you go the opposite direction and half damage with multiple modifiers (say getting hit by the blast radius of an explosive AND passing your Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact) you can completely nullify any and all damage; which I do not believe was the intention. It seems that in this case, Palladium would expect the character to take 25% damage, not zero.

Granted, modifiers that half damage are far less common than those that multiply it, but I believe what you do in one direction, you have to apply when you go the opposite direction. Therefore, if we go with my original logic, it is possible to nullify all damage with only 2 halving modifiers.

What is your take?

[Glistam]

I never looked at it that way, but the logic makes sense.

[Nightmask]

I believe palladium has it that your x2 increases to x3 due to the addition of another multiplier, to x4 with 2, and so on rather than multiplying all the multipliers together.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, +1 multiplier, not doubling doubles. You can already get like x7 damage depending on the abilities and gear you have, so let's stay cool, man.

[Glistam]

Yeah, but what about modifiers that halve damage, which is technically a fractional multiplier? Like the example the OP gave, with rolling with punch/fall/impact in a missile blast radius? Would that be ¼ damage ((½ × ½) × rolled damage) or 0 damage ((½ × rolled damage) + (½ × rolled damage))?

[Kagashi]

So you guys all agree that getting stuck in the blast radius (half damage) then Roll vs punch, fall, impact (again, half damage) would nullify the damage of the explosive completely, yes?

[Alrik Vas]

Naw, doesn't have to make sense one way for it to work another. Half of half of half still is minimum 1 in my book. I limit damage multiples for the player's sakes anyway.

[Kagashi]

its math. It has to work the same way no matter which way you go. So which is it?

[Athos]

So...I used to think that people took advantage of multiple doublers for things like critical damage or attacks per melee by doubling something that was already doubled. Many people just continue to multiply the product of the previous bonus, and I never liked looking at it that way, rather I would only multiply the base damage (or number of attacks) over and over again. As each modifier just says "double damage" it is left up to the player and GM to determine what exactly is getting doubled.

For example, hitting somebody in the head from behind AND rolling a natural 20.

Munchkin view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage) = 80 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of rolling natural 20 (x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage)) = 160 damage

My view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) = 60 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) + x 2 of base damage (natural 20) = 80 damage

However, now I am reevaluating this...because what if you go the opposite direction and half damage with multiple modifiers (say getting hit by the blast radius of an explosive AND passing your Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact) you can completely nullify any and all damage; which I do not believe was the intention. It seems that in this case, Palladium would expect the character to take 25% damage, not zero.

Granted, modifiers that half damage are far less common than those that multiply it, but I believe what you do in one direction, you have to apply when you go the opposite direction. Therefore, if we go with my original logic, it is possible to nullify all damage with only 2 halving modifiers.

What is your take?

Wow... leaving aside the obnoxious suggestion that anyone that doesn't agree with you is a munchkin, I would say that you would take 1/4 damage from the explosion if you rolled with the impact successfully, but that doesn't necessarily imply that going up is the same as going down for damage.

If the damage of a grenade was 12 MD, for example, and you were in the blast radius for 6 MD, and you rolled with impact successfully, you would take 3 MD, that seems really simple. The damage in the blast radius is 6 MD, you get half of that for rolling with impact, problem solved.

[Ravenwing]

So...I used to think that people took advantage of multiple doublers for things like critical damage or attacks per melee by doubling something that was already doubled. Many people just continue to multiply the product of the previous bonus, and I never liked looking at it that way, rather I would only multiply the base damage (or number of attacks) over and over again. As each modifier just says "double damage" it is left up to the player and GM to determine what exactly is getting doubled.

For example, hitting somebody in the head from behind AND rolling a natural 20.

Munchkin view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage) = 80 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of rolling natural 20 (x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage)) = 160 damage

My view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) = 60 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) + x 2 of base damage (natural 20) = 80 damage

However, now I am reevaluating this...because what if you go the opposite direction and half damage with multiple modifiers (say getting hit by the blast radius of an explosive AND passing your Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact) you can completely nullify any and all damage; which I do not believe was the intention. It seems that in this case, Palladium would expect the character to take 25% damage, not zero.

Granted, modifiers that half damage are far less common than those that multiply it, but I believe what you do in one direction, you have to apply when you go the opposite direction. Therefore, if we go with my original logic, it is possible to nullify all damage with only 2 halving modifiers.

What is your take?

Heres the problem with your question.....

Your trying to make sense of RIFTS!
Stop this before your mind explodes, it just doesn't work like that lol

[Glistam]

So...I used to think that people took advantage of multiple doublers for things like critical damage or attacks per melee by doubling something that was already doubled. Many people just continue to multiply the product of the previous bonus, and I never liked looking at it that way, rather I would only multiply the base damage (or number of attacks) over and over again. As each modifier just says "double damage" it is left up to the player and GM to determine what exactly is getting doubled.

For example, hitting somebody in the head from behind AND rolling a natural 20.

Munchkin view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage) = 80 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of rolling natural 20 (x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage)) = 160 damage

My view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) = 60 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) + x 2 of base damage (natural 20) = 80 damage

However, now I am reevaluating this...because what if you go the opposite direction and half damage with multiple modifiers (say getting hit by the blast radius of an explosive AND passing your Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact) you can completely nullify any and all damage; which I do not believe was the intention. It seems that in this case, Palladium would expect the character to take 25% damage, not zero.

Granted, modifiers that half damage are far less common than those that multiply it, but I believe what you do in one direction, you have to apply when you go the opposite direction. Therefore, if we go with my original logic, it is possible to nullify all damage with only 2 halving modifiers.

What is your take?

Wow... leaving aside the obnoxious suggestion that anyone that doesn't agree with you is a munchkin, I would say that you would take 1/4 damage from the explosion if you rolled with the impact successfully, but that doesn't necessarily imply that going up is the same as going down for damage.

If the damage of a grenade was 12 MD, for example, and you were in the blast radius for 6 MD, and you rolled with impact successfully, you would take 3 MD, that seems really simple. The damage in the blast radius is 6 MD, you get half of that for rolling with impact, problem solved.

What if you have an ability that lets you take only half damage from this sort of thing (impact-resistant armor, Rifts: Japan version of Dam Sum Sing, Super Powers, etc), would you just divide by half again?

[Alrik Vas]

its math. It has to work the same way no matter which way you go. So which is it?

I think its clear I don't run it as a two way street. I use different math fire each. Not everything has to be equal in my games as long as its consistent by itself.

[Kagashi]

So...I used to think that people took advantage of multiple doublers for things like critical damage or attacks per melee by doubling something that was already doubled. Many people just continue to multiply the product of the previous bonus, and I never liked looking at it that way, rather I would only multiply the base damage (or number of attacks) over and over again. As each modifier just says "double damage" it is left up to the player and GM to determine what exactly is getting doubled.

For example, hitting somebody in the head from behind AND rolling a natural 20.

Munchkin view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage) = 80 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of rolling natural 20 (x 2 of hitting from behind (x 2 of base damage)) = 160 damage

My view:
Base damage: 20 damage
Hitting the head: x 2 of base damage = 40 damage
Hitting from behind: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) = 60 damage
Natural 20: x 2 of base damage (head) + x 2 of base damage (behind) + x 2 of base damage (natural 20) = 80 damage

However, now I am reevaluating this...because what if you go the opposite direction and half damage with multiple modifiers (say getting hit by the blast radius of an explosive AND passing your Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact) you can completely nullify any and all damage; which I do not believe was the intention. It seems that in this case, Palladium would expect the character to take 25% damage, not zero.

Granted, modifiers that half damage are far less common than those that multiply it, but I believe what you do in one direction, you have to apply when you go the opposite direction. Therefore, if we go with my original logic, it is possible to nullify all damage with only 2 halving modifiers.

What is your take?

Wow... leaving aside the obnoxious suggestion that anyone that doesn't agree with you is a munchkin, I would say that you would take 1/4 damage from the explosion if you rolled with the impact successfully, but that doesn't necessarily imply that going up is the same as going down for damage.

If the damage of a grenade was 12 MD, for example, and you were in the blast radius for 6 MD, and you rolled with impact successfully, you would take 3 MD, that seems really simple. The damage in the blast radius is 6 MD, you get half of that for rolling with impact, problem solved.

So you subscribe to the Munchkin method of doubling?

Warning: Name calling is not acceptable. Mack

[Killer Cyborg]

Reducing damage is not the same as multiplying it. They don't need to use the same math.
Realistically, you're not going to walk away from an explosion completely unhurt.
Realistically, punching somebody in the back of the head shouldn't end up with their head exploding as if they'd been shot with a BMG round.
Different math in this case leads to more realism.

[eliakon]

I have always added the additions. So if you have x2 (+1) x2(+1) and x3(+2) you get x6 (+5)
if you have divisions I multiply the divisors x.5 and x.5 = x.25
I cancel out first.
YES this is not 'equal', but it doesn't have to be, this ISNT a mathematical formula, its a game. The damage system ISNT a formula. Its NOT a formal logical system. It doesn't have to run backwards. Double damage is not the same as takes half damage. Especially when you start stacking.

[Kagashi]

Seems the standard consensus is you "add" doubles of base damage for multipliers when calculating up, but you divide in half each time when calculating down.

What happens when you are hit from behind in the head with a natural 20 from a laser, but you are clad in laser reflective armor?

[eliakon]

Seems the standard consensus is you "add" doubles of base damage for multipliers when calculating up, but you divide in half each time when calculating down.

What happens when you are hit from behind in the head with a natural 20 from a laser, but you are clad in laser reflective armor?

I apply all bonuses for damage FIRST. Then all reductions for damage to that total. (unless there is a reason to go out of step)
So.
laser does 10 damage normally, but does x5 for being a critical (x2), headshot (x3) from behind (x2).
The armor then halves that to 25.

[Zer0 Kay]

Your original way of looking at multipliers isn't incorrect.
the head shot x2 is base (x) + bonus damage equal to base damage (h)
from behind x2 is base (x) + bonus damage equal to base damage (b)
critical x2 is base (x) + bonus damage equal to base damage (c)
so with a single source for each damage it is actually x+h+b+c for a total of times four which is the same thing as what you said except you don't have to do the math three different times just add plus one to the multiplier because they are all base + and your only doing the base once.
Same can be done with division
blast radius 1/2
roll with fall 1/2
wearing Naruni Thermo Kinetic armor 1/2
the numerator stays the same and for each divisor, after the first, you subtract one and add the remainder
So with the three above you should only receive 1/4
Lets say a cosmoknight takes a blast from a photon torpedo. Lets for a second assume that a photon torpedo actually uses photons and produces a damaging blast of light energy. The cosmoknight normally takes 1/10 damage from energy but he is also only in the blast radius and he successfully rolls with blast. So 1/2 from blast radius, 1/2 from roll and 1/10 from being a cosmo knight so he takes 1/12 damage.

[Zer0 Kay]

I have always added the additions. So if you have x2 (+1) x2(+1) and x3(+2) you get x6 (+5)
if you have divisions I multiply the divisors x.5 and x.5 = x.25
I cancel out first.
YES this is not 'equal', but it doesn't have to be, this ISNT a mathematical formula, its a game. The damage system ISNT a formula. Its NOT a formal logical system. It doesn't have to run backwards. Double damage is not the same as takes half damage. Especially when you start stacking.

Hmm.
head shot x2
critical x2
behind x2

roll x1/2
blast radius x1/2
k/e resistance x1/2

x4

x1/4

20x4=80
80/4=20
seems equal to me

hmm then again your example it was two 1/2s which would come up 1/3 but the reverse would be two x2s or x3 so my way seems to work better and require less computation in game... at least I figure most of us can do simple addition quickly.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seems the standard consensus is you "add" doubles of base damage for multipliers when calculating up, but you divide in half each time when calculating down.

What happens when you are hit from behind in the head with a natural 20 from a laser, but you are clad in laser reflective armor?

GOOD question!

Offhand, I'd use the divider to remove one of the multipliers.