Drawing PPE from the living "without knowledge" vs unwilling

[Tor]

RMGpg162 listed 4 means of getting PPE from living beings:

1. without knowledge, without consent (gets standard save, unclear if spell strength bonuses apply or not, if they fail you can take up to half, range limit that increases with level, number limit that increases with level. Not possible against mages, they always know, so must consent.
2. with knowledge, with consent (save not applicable, can absorb 7/10, no number limit, presumably same range as without knowledge
3. with knowledge, without consent (unwilling) not possible whatsoever
4. blood sacrifice (knowledge or consent presumably irrelevant one way or another)

Reading RUEpg186, I can only see 1, 3 and 4. The idea of drawing PPE without one's knowledge is not mentioned. Should we interpret that it is no longer possible, or just that it was accidentally ommitted?

3 was changed so that you CAN steal PPE from people who know what you are doing but do not consent, but they get a savings throw with a huge bonus, and even failing the save produces negligible results. A fair enough deal considering that you could not draw from the unwilling whatsoever previously.

But the ommission of being able to draw on the unaware is a huge change in mechanics. The ley line boost is nice, but this severely cripples mages who are away from ley lines and their ability to survive amongst a populace.

In RMB, mages could skim off the top of people who didn't use their energy, and now it appears they can't?

[popscythe]

Let's run a game where we're PPE pickpockets, who work a mind crimes ring to fill up a big TW PPE reservoir that is sorta like the ghost holding tank machine in the Ghostbuster's basement. Then once it's topped off we ship it to las vegas and pour it into guitar-shaped swimming pool of some ancient mansion that has been found in remarkably good condition. Doing so will clearly attract the ghosts of a ton of high profile celebrities and criminals who were having a party the night of the great cataclysm. So then we schmooze amongst the party guests with the clock ticking on the ritual running out, trying to ply them for (and overhear in conversation) information about the location of a fabled pre-rifts treasure.

The way I see it, we end up loaded on ecto-martinis trying desperately to talk our way out of the situation we've created as ghost-bouncers show up to remove the "gate crashers" when just like a couple hundred years ago, we get to see a vision the great cataclysm happening from a ritzy ghost's pool party overlooking Las Vegas and then the ritual ends, leaving us standing in the empty ruins of the mansion at dawn. Even though we didn't find the treasure, we ended up having a great story to tell.

[Damian Magecraft]

RMGpg162 listed 4 means of getting PPE from living beings:

1. without knowledge, without consent (gets standard save, unclear if spell strength bonuses apply or not, if they fail you can take up to half, range limit that increases with level, number limit that increases with level. Not possible against mages, they always know, so must consent.
2. with knowledge, with consent (save not applicable, can absorb 7/10, no number limit, presumably same range as without knowledge
3. with knowledge, without consent (unwilling) not possible whatsoever
4. blood sacrifice (knowledge or consent presumably irrelevant one way or another)

Reading RUEpg186, I can only see 1, 3 and 4. The idea of drawing PPE without one's knowledge is not mentioned. Should we interpret that it is no longer possible, or just that it was accidentally ommitted?

3 was changed so that you CAN steal PPE from people who know what you are doing but do not consent, but they get a savings throw with a huge bonus, and even failing the save produces negligible results. A fair enough deal considering that you could not draw from the unwilling whatsoever previously.

But the ommission of being able to draw on the unaware is a huge change in mechanics. The ley line boost is nice, but this severely cripples mages who are away from ley lines and their ability to survive amongst a populace.

In RMB, mages could skim off the top of people who didn't use their energy, and now it appears they can't?

Do you mean you only see 2,3,and 4? the way you have the question written implies there is no real question here.

Common practice is if the "newest" rules do not explicitly contradict older publications then the older rule is still valid. So drawing without consent would still function (assuming that is the one you are asking about)

[Tor]

Blah yes, should have written 2/3/4 not 1/3/4, sorry. Yes, talking about the omission of drawing-without-consent-and-without-awareness.

The 'unwilling' is also without consent though, so I want to clarify and emphasis the unawareness part.

I like the interpretation of the RMB rule remaining valid. It was a rather fundamental component.

I guess we could explain-away the ability to take PPE without knowledge as a new aspect of reality, and have ramifications for this lost power. Much like we could explain-in the enhanced PPE available at ley lines. The ramifications of both changes would result in a lot more reilance on ley lines and spellcasters en masse gravitating toward them far more than they did previously, which was already a pretty large amount.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As Written in RUE, the drawing PPE out of others rules do not mention drawing PPE out of others with the others unknowing. Thus implying that if it not 'freely given' the other is 'unwilling' in the Rifts setting with RUE canon.

This does not effect the other settings where you can still draw PPE out of others unknowingly.

The PFRPG setting has the limit set at 1 other per level per 15 sec. after the target fails a simple save vs magic 12.

[Tor]

But in RMB it was 2 people per level