Spirit Fox Mystic Study skills

[Nightmask]

snip.. and can't have it because they're pure Chi beings, ...snip

I am going to do something I avoid doing. Respond directly to NM.

You have already been shown that the above statement is WRONG. So please do not bring This incorrect idea up again.

No I clearly have not, since Fox Spirits aren't Infernal demons for whom a specific exception is made under their listed character traits. So do try and stop bringing up your incorrect idea that because an unrelated demonic race with a special racial trait for doing something means a race that's explicitly not stated to have such a trait can do it too. Canon clearly says you're wrong, because if the race doesn't have an ability listed for it then it doesn't have it even if another does. It's as much fallacious reasoning as to claim that because humans and elves are organic beings then both should be able to breed together when they obvious can't.

The pure negative chi race known as Infernal demons can convert chi to PPE and store it (and no suggestion or implication is ever made that they can do anything with it other than offer it up to actual mages), as listed in their racial abilities and under their entry for PPE which says as pure chi beings they don't naturally have PPE. The pure chi race known as Fox Spirits are stated to not have PPE because they're pure chi beings and are NOT listed to have any ability to store or manipulate PPE so one cannot claim that they can (and do keep in mind that the Infernal demons are NEGATIVE chi beings, Fox Spirits are POSITIVE chi beings, so the races are literally night and day for how different they are), any such claims are purely a house rule directly contradicting canon and if you're going to house rule something so major about them then the discussion ceases to be about the Mystic China Fox Spirit and instead becomes about an unrelated race also being called Fox Spirits. At that point it renders any reason to ask anyone else what to do moot as they're a custom fan creation and can do anything as the book's restrictions on actual Fox Spirits become moot.

[Stone Gargoyle]

It's funny to me that hardly anyone has answered the OP's actual questions.

That is because there is a gaping hole in the logic of making the Spirit Fox a Mystic Study character in the first place.

There is the reformed demon has no PPE because they are neg chi beings, but the Infernal demons (which where the reformed deamons come from) say they have none but can horde PPE. And some of them demons have Chi magic.
So that is where I got the textual support for Spirit Fox's could "Horde PPE" and able to "use magic" like the other pure chi beings detailed in the MC book can do.

What hole?

Besides I have decided how to deal with the skills aspect of what I started this about.

I am still of the opinion that just because the demons can do it as a special racial ability, that would not necessarily make it something the Spirit Fox can do. But as I have stated in previous arguments, people are free to run their games as they see fit and just because I would not do it does not mean you cannot. But from a canon perspective as to whether it should be possible, the answer is still "no".

[Gryphon Chick]

I am still of the opinion that just because the demons can do it as a special racial ability, that would not necessarily make it something the Spirit Fox can do. But as I have stated in previous arguments, people are free to run their games as they see fit and just because I would not do it does not mean you cannot. But from a canon perspective as to whether it should be possible, the answer is still "no".

I have to agree. If it is not listed as a Spirit Fox racial ability to do, it cannot be assumed they can just because demons can, Chi beings or not.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I am still of the opinion that just because the demons can do it as a special racial ability, that would not necessarily make it something the Spirit Fox can do. But as I have stated in previous arguments, people are free to run their games as they see fit and just because I would not do it does not mean you cannot. But from a canon perspective as to whether it should be possible, the answer is still "no".

I have to agree. If it is not listed as a Spirit Fox racial ability to do, it cannot be assumed they can just because demons can, Chi beings or not.

And it can not be assumed that they can not ether.

There is nothing in the Racial Text for the Spirit Fox that excludes them from "being able" to learn magic.

[Nightmask]

I am still of the opinion that just because the demons can do it as a special racial ability, that would not necessarily make it something the Spirit Fox can do. But as I have stated in previous arguments, people are free to run their games as they see fit and just because I would not do it does not mean you cannot. But from a canon perspective as to whether it should be possible, the answer is still "no".

I have to agree. If it is not listed as a Spirit Fox racial ability to do, it cannot be assumed they can just because demons can, Chi beings or not.

And it can not be assumed that they can not ether.

Yes actually it can. It is stated that they don't have PPE because they're pure chi beings, a strike against the idea that they can store any PPE because if they could it would be listed. Infernal demons as negative chi beings are explicitly stated when it comes to PPE to only be able to have or hoard PPE due to a racial ability, another strike against the Fox Spirit being capable of holding and storing PPE because no such ability is mentioned for them.

The evidence is that Fox Spirits can't do what you want them to do, and one cannot assume that they can as the evidence clearly says they can't. To insist that the material leaves it questionable as to whether or they can store PPE is to ignore the actual canon material because the material makes it clear that they can't.

If an ability is not listed for something it doesn't have it, basic logic. If something is said not to have something then it doesn't have it, again basic logic. If something has to be stated as being possessed by something and it isn't stated to have it then it doesn't have it, basic logic. Fox Spirits are stated not to have PPE, they have no stated ability to convert Chi into PPE or to store PPE, therefor they have no such ability and no ability by the canon rules to have PPE or learn spells or work magic.

[Glistam]

I am still of the opinion that just because the demons can do it as a special racial ability, that would not necessarily make it something the Spirit Fox can do. But as I have stated in previous arguments, people are free to run their games as they see fit and just because I would not do it does not mean you cannot. But from a canon perspective as to whether it should be possible, the answer is still "no".

I have to agree. If it is not listed as a Spirit Fox racial ability to do, it cannot be assumed they can just because demons can, Chi beings or not.

And it can not be assumed that they can not ether.

Yes actually it can. It is stated that they don't have PPE because they're pure chi beings, a strike against the idea that they can store any PPE because if they could it would be listed. Infernal demons as negative chi beings are explicitly stated when it comes to PPE to only be able to have or hoard PPE due to a racial ability, another strike against the Fox Spirit being capable of holding and storing PPE because no such ability is mentioned for them.

The evidence is that Fox Spirits can't do what you want them to do, and one cannot assume that they can as the evidence clearly says they can't. To insist that the material leaves it questionable as to whether or they can store PPE is to ignore the actual canon material because the material makes it clear that they can't.

If an ability is not listed for something it doesn't have it, basic logic. If something is said not to have something then it doesn't have it, again basic logic. If something has to be stated as being possessed by something and it isn't stated to have it then it doesn't have it, basic logic. Fox Spirits are stated not to have PPE, they have no stated ability to convert Chi into PPE or to store PPE, therefor they have no such ability and no ability by the canon rules to have PPE or learn spells or work magic.

Unless they take up a magic class, like Mystic Study - then they'll gain the abilt to store P.P.E. and and absorb it from the various sources.

[Nightmask]

I am still of the opinion that just because the demons can do it as a special racial ability, that would not necessarily make it something the Spirit Fox can do. But as I have stated in previous arguments, people are free to run their games as they see fit and just because I would not do it does not mean you cannot. But from a canon perspective as to whether it should be possible, the answer is still "no".

I have to agree. If it is not listed as a Spirit Fox racial ability to do, it cannot be assumed they can just because demons can, Chi beings or not.

And it can not be assumed that they can not ether.

Yes actually it can. It is stated that they don't have PPE because they're pure chi beings, a strike against the idea that they can store any PPE because if they could it would be listed. Infernal demons as negative chi beings are explicitly stated when it comes to PPE to only be able to have or hoard PPE due to a racial ability, another strike against the Fox Spirit being capable of holding and storing PPE because no such ability is mentioned for them.

The evidence is that Fox Spirits can't do what you want them to do, and one cannot assume that they can as the evidence clearly says they can't. To insist that the material leaves it questionable as to whether or they can store PPE is to ignore the actual canon material because the material makes it clear that they can't.

If an ability is not listed for something it doesn't have it, basic logic. If something is said not to have something then it doesn't have it, again basic logic. If something has to be stated as being possessed by something and it isn't stated to have it then it doesn't have it, basic logic. Fox Spirits are stated not to have PPE, they have no stated ability to convert Chi into PPE or to store PPE, therefor they have no such ability and no ability by the canon rules to have PPE or learn spells or work magic.

Unless they take up a magic class, like Mystic Study - then they'll gain the abilt to store P.P.E. and and absorb it from the various sources.

No, they wouldn't. Creatures that have no PPE and no spell-casting ability can't gain it by studying the very thing they can't be. If that were the case that race from Phase World could do it, or any number of other races said to have no ability to cast spells, and most of those actually have PPE. The infernal demons can only do it because they have a specific racial ability to do so, and even they aren't listed as being capable of being spell-casters.

[say652]

reminds me off a Silhouette discussion in the dimensions books forums. So in that respect, SURE you can be a mage IF you give up all racial abilities to become one. You are the ONLY SpiritFox Wizard so your powers are different NOT enhanced.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The ability for Chi Beings to hold PPE is shown to exist. Whether it is an innate racial ability of just one race of chi beings or of all chi beings or can be a learned ability is the crux of the disagreement.
Since there is no text in the racial text that states that they can not learn magic, if using basic general assumptions of the PB megaverse system that a race has the underlaying ability to make magic if taught, then the assumption must fall to the side that "they have the underlaying ability to make magic if taught". But even that is subject to a GM discretion, because there is no text ether way in the racial text.

-----------
Seljuk; The only Race that I can think of off hand that is precluded from ever using magic; is a race with the ability to make magic burned out of them. This is not a terribly good example because 1) it is specifically stated in the racial text that they can't, and 2) anything in the WW/3G/Rifts settings only applies to the other settings at the discretion of that game's GM.

So while the example will hold water in one GM's game, it will not in another GM's game.

reminds me off a Silhouette discussion in the dimensions books forums. So in that respect, SURE you can be a mage IF you give up all racial abilities to become one. You are the ONLY SpiritFox Wizard so your powers are different NOT enhanced.

Two things:
1) There is not a racial class for the SF , only a collection secondary skills. Where the Sh's have a whole Class of skills that they have been taught. And it is the "Why's" & "where-for's" of that "what they were taught" that was central to that discussion.
With the SF it is more "they came out of the forest and learned".

2) So what "powers" would be change for the Spirit Fox?
Their ability to become a physical being? Or to be only a physical being?
There is not much there that can be 'traded away' and the char still be a SF.

[Nightmask]

The ability for Chi Beings to hold PPE is shown to exist. Whether it is an innate racial ability of just one race of chi beings or of all chi beings or can be a learned ability is the crux of the disagreement.
Since there is no text in the racial text that states that they can not learn magic, if using basic general assumptions of the PB megaverse system that a race has the underlaying ability to make magic if taught, then the assumption must fall to the side that "they have the underlaying ability to make magic if taught". But even that is subject to a GM discretion, because there is no text ether way in the racial text.

And there's the problem, using underlying assumptions that are wrong, and ignoring the text that says it isn't possible. You have one race (Fox Spirits) being stated as NOT having PPE, a fundamental requirement for working magic and casting spells, because they are chi beings. You have another (infernal demons) being explicitly stated as having a racial ability to overcome the lack of their ability to have PPE due to being chi beings to convert their Chi to PPE and store it.

So no, you can't say there's an underlying assumption that all races unless explicitly noted can work magic because there isn't. There is no such rule and one would have to consider it a HOUSE RULE that one exists. If one were to conclude anything from the megaversal magic system it is that a race must have access to PPE in order to learn magic, a race without access to PPE can't become a spell-casting race. Fox Spirits have no access to PPE so therefor can't be mages.

[Nightmask]

reminds me off a Silhouette discussion in the dimensions books forums. So in that respect, SURE you can be a mage IF you give up all racial abilities to become one. You are the ONLY SpiritFox Wizard so your powers are different NOT enhanced.

Unrelated topics, the two races are completely different and you can't just give up your racial abilities to become something else that's why they're racial abilities. A fox spirit just couldn't stop being a pure chi being and become something else, something of flesh and blood, something that naturally has PPE and can work magic.

[Nightmask]

reminds me off a Silhouette discussion in the dimensions books forums. So in that respect, SURE you can be a mage IF you give up all racial abilities to become one. You are the ONLY SpiritFox Wizard so your powers are different NOT enhanced.

Unrelated topics, the two races are completely different and you can't just give up your racial abilities to become something else that's why they're racial abilities. A fox spirit just couldn't stop being a pure chi being and become something else, something of flesh and blood, something that naturally has PPE and can work magic.

That's basically how I feel as well. It's a Racial class. Thus Racial limitations take precedent over anything else, unless you can come up with a damn good reason as to how the character overcame said limitation (which would work best as an in-game story, and not something to bring the table initially). I still think a mutant fox wizard works much better than a Spirit Fox Mystic Study character.

I have to agree, at least the mutant fox is known to be capable of becoming a spellcaster and AtB goes to the trouble of noting their PPE bonus for such situations as a perk to make up for the other problems a mutant animal has. If you just had to have some kind of Fox Spirit tie-in you just have the mutant fox raised by one or more Fox Spirit so it acts much like they do but has the benefit of having learned magic at some point, perhaps from a sympathetic wizard to the Fox Spirit(s). Although they would more likely end up trained as a Wu Shih instead of a western style mage like Mystic studies would suggest.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I am still of the opinion that just because the demons can do it as a special racial ability, that would not necessarily make it something the Spirit Fox can do. But as I have stated in previous arguments, people are free to run their games as they see fit and just because I would not do it does not mean you cannot. But from a canon perspective as to whether it should be possible, the answer is still "no".

I have to agree. If it is not listed as a Spirit Fox racial ability to do, it cannot be assumed they can just because demons can, Chi beings or not.

And it can not be assumed that they can not ether.

There is nothing in the Racial Text for the Spirit Fox that excludes them from "being able" to learn magic.

The books are pretty thorough when it comes to including things that should be part of a race. The fact that the ability to gather and convert PPE was excluded from the Spirit Fox and was included with the demons shows that the makers of the book did not intend for the Spirit Fox to be able to cast magic. The demons can do it because it was a specific racial trait added to them and it cannot be inferred or implied because they have a racial ability that all Chi beings would have the same ability. It simply is not presented that way. If the Spirit Fox was supposed to have that racial ability, it would have been included, but it wasn't.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The books are pretty thorough when it comes to including things that should be part of a race. The fact that the ability to gather and convert PPE was excluded from the Spirit Fox and was included with the demons shows that the makers of the book did not intend for the Spirit Fox to be able to cast magic. The demons can do it because it was a specific racial trait added to them and it cannot be inferred or implied because they have a racial ability that all Chi beings would have the same ability. It simply is not presented that way. If the Spirit Fox was supposed to have that racial ability, it would have been included, but it wasn't.

The writing shows that Erik meant for the Player Character options for the Spirit Fox and Infernal Demon to not have access to magic.
[This is the "in you face" obvious think about it.]

Since the NPC ID text is the only text about what what chi entitys can do with out the "No, Players Can't Do It" written into the text, it can be interpreted that what is okay for one side of the coin is okay for the other side of the coin.

Both the Reformed Infernal Demon and the Infernal Demon texts are incomplete as they are written, but not if take what is missing in one, from where it is in the other.

[Nightmask]

The books are pretty thorough when it comes to including things that should be part of a race. The fact that the ability to gather and convert PPE was excluded from the Spirit Fox and was included with the demons shows that the makers of the book did not intend for the Spirit Fox to be able to cast magic. The demons can do it because it was a specific racial trait added to them and it cannot be inferred or implied because they have a racial ability that all Chi beings would have the same ability. It simply is not presented that way. If the Spirit Fox was supposed to have that racial ability, it would have been included, but it wasn't.

The writing shows that Erik meant for the Player Character options for the Spirit Fox and Infernal Demon to not have access to magic.
[This is the "in you face" obvious think about it.]

Since the NPC ID text is the only text about what what chi entitys can do with out the "No, Players Can't Do It" written into the text, it can be interpreted that what is okay for one side of the coin is okay for the other side of the coin.

Both the Reformed Infernal Demon and the Infernal Demon texts are incomplete as they are written, but not if take what is missing in one, from where it is in the other.

Or more likely they are complete and you just don't like that one doesn't have abilities of other, but again what Infernal Demons can do, reformed or otherwise, has absolutely no bearing on what Fox Spirits can or cannot do. They are unrelated races, one of pure negative chi (demons) and one of pure positive chi (fox spirits), one cannot say Fox Spirits can do something the demons can do when the demons have it as explicit text written for them. If Fox Spirits were capable of having PPE in some fashion or work magic it would have to say so in their write-up, since it doesn't they can't have PPE in any fashion nor can they work magic.

[Alrik Vas]

If this is a HU game, isn't it just possible to MAKE a kitsune and give it spell magic? Role play it like it's a fox spirit, because that's what you want to play, just use the HU rules to make it within the game. Pretty sure it's possible.

[Daniel Stoker]

Again, just make it with the Immortal power category with super powers and magic.


Daniel Stoker

[Nightmask]

Again, just make it with the Immortal power category with super powers and magic.


Daniel Stoker

That wouldn't really be a Fox Spirit though, it would be something that had things in common with a Fox Spirit.

[say652]

just make a spirit fox and give it a weapon of light/chaos and a magi item like a ring etc. most spell"like" abilities are covered and since both provide a ppe source................ it would work and since we are already using 2 outa 4 magic powered thingys why not just add in mystically bestowed powers for that spell casting form i mentioned earlier. i mean as a pure chi being its not like the character wouldn't have access to any and all types of magic items/bestowments anyway.

[Daniel Stoker]

That wouldn't really be a Fox Spirit though, it would be something that had things in common with a Fox Spirit.

Meh it's as much a 'real' fox spirit as the Mystic China one is.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

they're creatures of pure Chi, they don't have PPE. Mystic study can't give them PPE anymore than it can any other race that doesn't have and can't have PPE or work magic.

Not starting with PPE doesn't mean you can't horde some or even form your own eventual pool.

Infernal Demons are completely unrelated to Fox Spirits

Not 'completely' unrelated. They share a clear relation in being examples of beings of pure negative chi who can spend it to gain temporary SDC, although the demons' conversion rate is a lot more efficient. They can also both learn Zenjoriki and positive chi (although Foxes start with them, while demons have to humanize to do that)

The ID doesn't give one reason to believe it could learn or cast spells either, as a demon its hoarding of PPE is likely as a way of tempting Wu Shih with offers of vast amounts of PPE that they've been collecting for the occasion.

You didn't read the main section on Infernals, did you? Pg 144 under 'Special Powers' 3/4/10 are all chi spells, and 12 in particular is notable in that some infernals know ALL chi spells. Specifically 1 in 11 Ushers, 2 in 11 Overlords, and 3 in 110 ordinary ones.

If you aren't going to allow a Fox Spirit to have P.P.E. from the magic class (although I see no reason why not), then you can work around it by teaching the Fox Spirit the Chi Magic spell "Convert Chi to P.P.E." in order to work magic.

But even then you would also need to incorporate the ability to hold ("Horde") said PPE just like Infernal Demons are stated out to be able to do.

I don't think you would need that ability. All it means is that if you lack a PPE pool, the 'First' use of Chi2ppe will not work (replenishing your base) but the 'Second' (cast a spell immediately within 2 melee rounds) or 'Third' (dissipation) would still apply.

I thought that Chi Magic allowed use of either PPE or Chi to fuel spells.

It does, if you know 'Convert Chi to PPE'. Someone without any PPE pool at all (even a robot, if somehow robots could manipulate chi) could, if they used the PPE they converted their chi into within half a minute (which is plenty of time to cast any spell, even using the old system) could cast any chi magic spell.

I am sure drewkitty~..~ wants them to have the extras that come with being a Spirit Fox, such as the fighting skills and whatnot.

Those level advancements aren't so impressive until you notice that are in addition to any hand to hand skills and that the SFs are not utterly prohibited from learning a HtH.

Fox Spirits aren't demons, reformed or otherwise, such an argument is completely without merit.

Untrue, the argument isn't being made on the basis that the foxes are demons, so this is arguing a strawman.

Fox Spirits unlike Infernal Demons are explicitly NOT noted as being able to convert chi into PPE

Where does it say that the Infernals can't convert chi into PPE? Plenty of them who know chi magic can do this. They also have equivalent statements for base PPE:

"None, Fox spirits are made of pure Chi"
"None, they are made of pure Negative Chi"

or to be able to store PPE in any fashion so by the book (as you're so fond of saying) it's impossible for a Fox Spirit to learn magic or cast spells because they're incapable of having PPE which is the basis of all spell-casting both Eastern and Western.

Neither RCC says they are incapable of having PPE. They just say "none" along with a note "made of pure chi". Some take from it the implication they can't have any. Which isn't necessarily true. It's just an explanation for why they lack any by default.

Infernals have a note about being able to horde PPE. Foxes do not, but it's not utterly out of the question, I think.

As a race they have absolutely no PPE and can't have it because they're pure Chi beings

It's never said anywhere that pure Chi beings absolutely can't have PPE, they just don't start with any.

the nature of spellcasting (at least in Palladium) is all about learning to build up and manipulate your inherent PPE in order to work magic

The new system, you mean. Not the only system of magic

races that don't have PPE (like that reptilian race in the Phaseworld setting) can't learn magic or cast spells.

I think Seljuk actually do have PPE (isn't it something like 1d4?) their inability to cast magic is more due to their being burnt out. Although they may share something in common with the Invalians.

There are cases of mages using spells to transfer bodies. The Wormwood Soul Gem for example. Even in a body with no PPE you can still cast magic if you can manipulate the PPE and stuff. Lacking a pool is not lacking the ability to weave the flows.

if you're using the Fox Spirit from Mystic China as it is it simply cannot become a mage, if you're creating one that can have PPE and learn magic then it's not a Fox Spirit.

Fox Spirits simply lack a base PPE. If the GM rules that RCCs can learn OCCs (or HU hero classes) there's no statement prohibiting them from building the default base that a class gets, though.

Heck, there's a crazy magical book in Shadows of Light you can read that just GIVES you PPE.

[The Beast]

I thought that Chi Magic allowed use of either PPE or Chi to fuel spells.

It does, if you know 'Convert Chi to PPE'. Someone without any PPE pool at all (even a robot, if somehow robots could manipulate chi) could, if they used the PPE they converted their chi into within half a minute (which is plenty of time to cast any spell, even using the old system) could cast any chi magic spell.

That's not what I meant. I thought Chi magic could use Chi to power spells instead of PPE, not turn Chi into PPE by means of a spell and then use it.

[Nightmask]

they're creatures of pure Chi, they don't have PPE. Mystic study can't give them PPE anymore than it can any other race that doesn't have and can't have PPE or work magic.

Not starting with PPE doesn't mean you can't horde some or even form your own eventual pool.

Yes actually it does, if you can't have it you can't have it.

Infernal Demons are completely unrelated to Fox Spirits

Not 'completely' unrelated. They share a clear relation in being examples of beings of pure negative chi who can spend it to gain temporary SDC, although the demons' conversion rate is a lot more efficient. They can also both learn Zenjoriki and positive chi (although Foxes start with them, while demons have to humanize to do that)

Yes, completely unrelated. Being beings of pure chi no more makes them related than both being organic beings makes alien intelligences related to humans. So no, they have no relation whatsoever that one can use to try and argue that both can do the same thing particularly when a point is made to note how one has a special exception and the other doesn't.

If you aren't going to allow a Fox Spirit to have P.P.E. from the magic class (although I see no reason why not), then you can work around it by teaching the Fox Spirit the Chi Magic spell "Convert Chi to P.P.E." in order to work magic.

But even then you would also need to incorporate the ability to hold ("Horde") said PPE just like Infernal Demons are stated out to be able to do.

I don't think you would need that ability. All it means is that if you lack a PPE pool, the 'First' use of Chi2ppe will not work (replenishing your base) but the 'Second' (cast a spell immediately within 2 melee rounds) or 'Third' (dissipation) would still apply.

No that really does mean you can't hold PPE, that's why it says that as creatures of pure chi Fox Spirits don't have PPE.

Fox Spirits aren't demons, reformed or otherwise, such an argument is completely without merit.

Untrue, the argument isn't being made on the basis that the foxes are demons, so this is arguing a strawman.

You do not know what a strawman is, which is why you toss it out so often where it isn't applicable. The strawman is trying to draw comparisons and links between Infernal Demons and Fox Spirits that don't exist to try and transfer an ability that the one has to the other when the other does not in fact have said ability. What can be done by an Infernal Demon means not a whit towards what a Fox Spirit can do and can't be used to justify giving the Fox Spirit any abilities it isn't listed as having.

Fox Spirits unlike Infernal Demons are explicitly NOT noted as being able to convert chi into PPE

Where does it say that the Infernals can't convert chi into PPE? Plenty of them who know chi magic can do this. They also have equivalent statements for base PPE:

"None, Fox spirits are made of pure Chi"
"None, they are made of pure Negative Chi"

Now you know I didn't say anything of the sort, I stated quite clearly that Fox Spirits unlike Infernal Demons have no ability to convert Chi to PPE or store it, I don't even remotely suggest Infernal demons can't because I make it clear that they can.

or to be able to store PPE in any fashion so by the book (as you're so fond of saying) it's impossible for a Fox Spirit to learn magic or cast spells because they're incapable of having PPE which is the basis of all spell-casting both Eastern and Western.

Neither RCC says they are incapable of having PPE. They just say "none" along with a note "made of pure chi". Some take from it the implication they can't have any. Which isn't necessarily true. It's just an explanation for why they lack any by default.

Infernals have a note about being able to horde PPE. Foxes do not, but it's not utterly out of the question, I think.

I guess once again I need to remind you to stop cutting up sentences and respond to entire sentences and paragraphs instead of creating these messes where you remove relevant context in an effort to try and imply someone said something the didn't or try and make your argument more valid than it actually is. Fox Spirits do not have PPE, it's made clear from the text it's because they are creatures of pure chi, Infernal Demons are listed as having an exception that as a race they can manage to hold PPE because that's what they can do. This means Fox Spirits, since they have no listed ability and are completely unrelated to Infernal Demons, cannot have PPE nor can they hold or otherwise store PPE.

As a race they have absolutely no PPE and can't have it because they're pure Chi beings

It's never said anywhere that pure Chi beings absolutely can't have PPE, they just don't start with any.

You're trying to work some fallacies to justify something that's not supported by the text, the fact that they're stated not to have PPE because they're chi beings means that they can't have any period. There is absolutely no option to try and argue that there's a case it's possible they can get some later, it's a foundationless argument.

races that don't have PPE (like that reptilian race in the Phaseworld setting) can't learn magic or cast spells.

I think Seljuk actually do have PPE (isn't it something like 1d4?) their inability to cast magic is more due to their being burnt out. Although they may share something in common with the Invalians.

There are cases of mages using spells to transfer bodies. The Wormwood Soul Gem for example. Even in a body with no PPE you can still cast magic if you can manipulate the PPE and stuff. Lacking a pool is not lacking the ability to weave the flows.

Such cases have no bearing here, someone from a spell-casting race and who actually is a mage still has that potential if they can somehow access PPE even if they currently have none. Fox Spirits have no PPE, create a fake physical body that again has no PPE, and therefor can't learn to manipulate something that they don't have.

if you're using the Fox Spirit from Mystic China as it is it simply cannot become a mage, if you're creating one that can have PPE and learn magic then it's not a Fox Spirit.

Fox Spirits simply lack a base PPE. If the GM rules that RCCs can learn OCCs (or HU hero classes) there's no statement prohibiting them from building the default base that a class gets, though.

Heck, there's a crazy magical book in Shadows of Light you can read that just GIVES you PPE.

Lacking PPE is an indicator of a race that can't work magic, the Machine People can't either and they're at least physical beings Fox Spirits are pure chi energy, they can't even access PPE because of that and you can't work magic if you can't manipulate PPE.

EDIT:

There's also that whole 'Fox Spirits don't have PPE as they're beings of pure Chi' statement from their racial description which certainly means that they can't develop any PPE. You can't develop what you can't have, basic logic. Infernal Demons are only able to do it because they have a specific racial ability that lets them have a natural ability to work the 'Convert Chi to PPE' spell AND a specific racial ability that lets them store the PPE that they create. Without a specific statement that a something can be done then it cannot, and Fox Spirits have specific statements saying that they don't have certain things which is sufficient to constitute a statement that they can't do what you suggest.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Thank you Tor for stating basically all the supporting ideas about why a Spirit Fox mage is possible.
{However, I never said that the SF (nor the ID) have the natural ability to convert Chi to PPE. Nether has such ability.}

I don't know why the usual liberal is now acting like a AR rules lawyer, now that it's my idea being presented instead of one of his. Even though My idea actually comes out of ideas with int he text in the book.

I did notice that he never got around give a specific example of a rifts race that has no PPE.
Off hand the only one I can think of are the androids in the PW book. But they are not ALIVE, even if they are sentient androids, So can not be used as an example of races w/o PPE.
(*Waves hand like 'I know, I know, I brought up the seljuk.'* They were all I could think of then.)

Then there is the relationship between -/+Chi and PPE, being like three flavors of of the same living energy.

And thank you for pointing out that the "WotF" stuff is in addition to any H2H they may have. I missed that.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I just don't know why it is imperative you use a Spirit Fox rather than simply creating something else with the abilities you want and moving on.

[Nightmask]

I just don't know why it is imperative you use a Spirit Fox rather than simply creating something else with the abilities you want and moving on.

I'm not seeing it either, unless he's wanting a Kitsune or somesuch but since they don't have game stats is trying to square peg/round hole it mangling the Fox Spirit trying to say it's something it isn't so he can say the character is 100% by the book when in fact it can't be and has to be a house rule/against the book GM ruling to allow for it to occur.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I just don't know why it is imperative you use a Spirit Fox rather than simply creating something else with the abilities you want and moving on.

I'm not seeing it either, unless he's wanting a Kitsune or somesuch but since they don't have game stats is trying to square peg/round hole it mangling the Fox Spirit trying to say it's something it isn't so he can say the character is 100% by the book when in fact it can't be and has to be a house rule/against the book GM ruling to allow for it to occur.

It will never be by the book as long as the Spirit Fox does not have the racial ability the demon has, which he insists upon giving it in spite of the fact that there is nothing actually supporting his argument other than his supposition.

[Long Shadow]

Just reading Armageddon unlimited and they present demons, devils and demonic creatures as the power Catagory Herioic Hellion with only a change in alignment. As far as I know dual classing is not in the books.

However, he can home brew the character using the dual class rules submitted in Rifter 37.

[Nightmask]

Just reading Armageddon unlimited and they present demons, devils and demonic creatures as the power Catagory Herioic Hellion with only a change in alignment. As far as I know dual classing is not in the books.

However, he can home brew the character using the dual class rules submitted in Rifter 37.

I've not seen the rules but I don't see how he could since to dual class you have to actually be capable of meeting the requirements of the new class in order to become one. Since a requirement to be a magic-user is that you actually have PPE and Fox Spirits can't have PPE then they can't become magic-users. Just like Nightbane can't become any sort of psychic because they can't have ISP a Fox Spirit can't work magic because it can't have PPE, the chi demons have a work-around to have PPE that's a racial attribute that the Fox Spirit doesn't have.

[Long Shadow]

Just reading Armageddon unlimited and they present demons, devils and demonic creatures as the power Catagory Herioic Hellion with only a change in alignment. As far as I know dual classing is not in the books.

However, he can home brew the character using the dual class rules submitted in Rifter 37.

I've not seen the rules but I don't see how he could since to dual class you have to actually be capable of meeting the requirements of the new class in order to become one. Since a requirement to be a magic-user is that you actually have PPE and Fox Spirits can't have PPE then they can't become magic-users. Just like Nightbane can't become any sort of psychic because they can't have ISP a Fox Spirit can't work magic because it can't have PPE, the chi demons have a work-around to have PPE that's a racial attribute that the Fox Spirit doesn't have.

I agree. The nature of the text implies that the Fox Spirit is incapable of learning anything but the most basic human skills and the PPE indicates their lack of PPE is due to being a pure chi spirit. But the wording isn't strict enough to say outright that they are incapable of building a PPE base.

I am in agreeance that the description indicates it is implausible for them to study human skills, let alone the rigorous training required to be a spell caster, but if he is going to break two rules to mix the two power classes together, then I don't see the inference to a lack of PPE being an obstacle.

At the end of the day he'll have a shape hanging, spirit changing supernatural being with both mastery over Chi Abilites and spell casting with more skills than the Fox Spirit would normally have. It's really up to the GM to decide if they would allow it and how they would combine the two.

[Nightmask]

Just reading Armageddon unlimited and they present demons, devils and demonic creatures as the power Catagory Herioic Hellion with only a change in alignment. As far as I know dual classing is not in the books.

However, he can home brew the character using the dual class rules submitted in Rifter 37.

I've not seen the rules but I don't see how he could since to dual class you have to actually be capable of meeting the requirements of the new class in order to become one. Since a requirement to be a magic-user is that you actually have PPE and Fox Spirits can't have PPE then they can't become magic-users. Just like Nightbane can't become any sort of psychic because they can't have ISP a Fox Spirit can't work magic because it can't have PPE, the chi demons have a work-around to have PPE that's a racial attribute that the Fox Spirit doesn't have.

I agree. The nature of the text implies that the Fox Spirit is incapable of learning anything but the most basic human skills and the PPE indicates their lack of PPE is due to being a pure chi spirit. But the wording isn't strict enough to say outright that they are incapable of building a PPE base.

I'm not seeing how you arrive at that, when something says 'doesn't have X because they're Y' there isn't any wriggle room to try and claim that 'but they can have it anyway if they just do Z'. It says they don't have PPE because they're Chi beings, if they don't have it they can't build it up. Even the Infernal Demons have to use a natural version of the Convert Chi to PPE spell to acquire PPE and a racial attribute to get around not being able to otherwise hold or have PPE.

I am in agreeance that the description indicates it is implausible for them to study human skills, let alone the rigorous training required to be a spell caster, but if he is going to break two rules to mix the two power classes together, then I don't see the inference to a lack of PPE being an obstacle.

At the end of the day he'll have a shape hanging, spirit changing supernatural being with both mastery over Chi Abilites and spell casting with more skills than the Fox Spirit would normally have. It's really up to the GM to decide if they would allow it and how they would combine the two.

The impression I have of drew is that he needs everything to be canon, so he will mangle the canon rules and insist they say what they don't so what he wants can be claimed to be canon rather than resulting from a house rule, as if there were something horribly evil about house-ruling something. Easier just to admit they can't be done in the rules but going with the 'GM can change the rules as needed' super-rule that lets one remake the rules as needed.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The SF race, the proper wording is that they do not have a base PPE.

Saying they Can't have PPE is overstepping what the books says.

I don't understand all of you that do not understand the difference between the two. Even though there is an example of the difference in the same book.

[Nightmask]

The SF race, the proper wording is that they do not have a base PPE.

Saying they Can't have PPE is overstepping what the books says.

I don't understand all of you that do not understand the difference between the two. Even though there is an example of the difference in the same book.

No, there's an example of a chi race that has a special racial ability to cheat around the normal limitations for chi beings to have PPE and an example of one that doesn't have PPE and doesn't have said ability. It's overstepping what the book says to try and claim that saying that they don't have PPE requires an added statement that they can't develop PPE or can't be mages when 'they don't have PPE because they're Chi beings' ALREADY makes it clear that they can't be mages because they can't have PPE. You can't develop what you can't have and they certainly can't develop a racial ability another race has when you have to actually have the racial ability to use it and Fox Spirits don't have said racial abilities.

You'd have better luck trying to argue that they could have psionics or be of a psionic class since there aren't any rules mentioned regarding Fox Spirits (note they're called Fox Spirits and not Spirit Foxes) and ISP, even though being pure chi logically neither psionics nor magic is possible for Fox Spirits.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The SF race, the proper wording is that they do not have a base PPE.

Saying they Can't have PPE is overstepping what the books says.

I don't understand all of you that do not understand the difference between the two. Even though there is an example of the difference in the same book.

I don't understand why you would assume because an exception is made for one creature that it should be allowed to be applied elsewhere when the book is making the said ability a racial trait specific to a type of demon and nowhere does it say that it can or should be applied to all chi beings. The book does not say Spirit Foxes cannot have PPE, but it also provides them with no means of gaining it as it does with the demons, in spite of the fact that you wish to apply the demon racial ability to all chi beings.

[say652]

I'll allow it!!!

[drewkitty ~..~]

The SF race, the proper wording is that they do not have a base PPE.

Saying they Can't have PPE is overstepping what the books says.

I don't understand all of you that do not understand the difference between the two. Even though there is an example of the difference in the same book.

At the end of this discussion the consensus is clear. A Spirit Fox can not learn magic and we aren't going to circumvent the rules to allow one to be a Mystic Study.

You may not like it, but that is the consensus decision. What you do in your own game of course is your decision.

There is No Consensus here.

There are Three opinions here;
1) they can horde PPE, even though they do not have a PPE base.
2) they can learn to have a PPE base.
3) they can't learn magic because they do not have a PPE base.

The #3 opinion, to me, is ignoring the relationship between PPE and Chi as similar types of mystical energies. One being the energy of body and soul (PPE) and the other being the energy of body and spirit (Chi). A point which seams to have been dismissed out of hand by the ones favoring opinion #3. So they can have their opinion that Spirit Foxes can't even manipulate PPE, even when it has been shown the only other Chi entity with no PPE base can manipulate PPE.

[Nightmask]

The SF race, the proper wording is that they do not have a base PPE.

Saying they Can't have PPE is overstepping what the books says.

I don't understand all of you that do not understand the difference between the two. Even though there is an example of the difference in the same book.

At the end of this discussion the consensus is clear. A Spirit Fox can not learn magic and we aren't going to circumvent the rules to allow one to be a Mystic Study.

You may not like it, but that is the consensus decision. What you do in your own game of course is your decision.

There is No Consensus here.

There are Three opinions here;
1) they can horde PPE, even though they do not have a PPE base.
2) they can learn to have a PPE base.
3) they can't learn magic because they do not have a PPE base.

The #3 opinion, to me, is ignoring the relationship between PPE and Chi as similar types of mystical energies. One being the energy of body and soul (PPE) and the other being the energy of body and spirit (Chi). A point which seams to have been dismissed out of hand by the ones favoring opinion #3. So they can have their opinion that Spirit Foxes can't even manipulate PPE, even when it has been shown the only other Chi entity with no PPE base can manipulate PPE.

No, the third statement of fact is covered under the entry for Fox Spirits whereby it states that as Chi beings they do not have PPE. It also does not matter if one can convert PPE to Chi or Chi to PPE that is completely irrelevant as to whether or not a Fox Spirit can have both, since it says they don't have PPE then they only have Chi.

The other two statements are simply your efforts to try and insert text into the book that doesn't exist to make your non-canon idea canon. We know the first point is invalid because we already know from Infernal Demons (that you love to bring up) that you have to have a racial ability as a chi being to be able to contain PPE, since Fox Spirits have no such racial ability they cannot store PPE. The second statement fails because once again we're told that as pure chi beings they don't have PPE, being chi beings therefor precludes them having or developing PPE as it's not natural for chi beings to have PPE. Infernal demons, being often considered on the unnatural end, have the means of overcoming the normal racial restriction.

So no, no matter how much you try and insert ambiguity where it isn't Fox Spirits can't be mages under the rules of the book. They don't have PPE, they can't develop PPE, and the example you keep tossing out only proves you wrong because it shows that a chi being needs a racial ability to overcome the normal inability to have, develop, or store PPE. We know categorically that Fox Spirits have no such racial ability and since the example you keep bringing up shows that they have to have such a racial ability to be able to do so then they cannot ever have PPE or become mages.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Snip...
2) they can learn to have a PPE base.

This is just ludicrous. One cannot learn to have PPE. They either have it or they don't. Otherwise, I agree with what Mephisto and Nightmask are saying and do not wish to be redundant.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Snip...
2) they can learn to have a PPE base.

This is just ludicrous. One cannot learn to have PPE. They either have it or they don't. Otherwise, I agree with what Mephisto and Nightmask are saying and do not wish to be redundant.

Note : I was pointing out there was no consensus about the subject you people brought up in my topic about a question about "Skills". (Yes, I decided just to add the MS skill program to the SF skills.)

Note 2: #2 is not my opinion about this, I was only listing what opinions were put forth.

Yes you have previusely said your opinon about this subject Many times before just like NM has and Meph.

And since there are at very least three others that have #2 as their opinion, #3 is only an opinion of three other players here. SG, NM, and Meph. are just repeating your opinions over and over again. Which only shows how vocal you are about your opinions.


There is No Consensus on the subject of whether or not, or how a Spirit Fox can be a mage.

[Nightmask]

Snip...
2) they can learn to have a PPE base.

This is just ludicrous. One cannot learn to have PPE. They either have it or they don't. Otherwise, I agree with what Mephisto and Nightmask are saying and do not wish to be redundant.

Note : I was pointing out there was no consensus about the subject you people brought up in my topic about a question about "Skills". (Yes, I decided just to add the MS skill program to the SF skills.)

Note 2: #2 is not my opinion about this, I was only listing what opinions were put forth.

Yes you have previusely said your opinon about this subject Many times before just like NM has and Meph.

And since there are at very least three others that have #2 as their opinion, #3 is only an opinion of three other players here. SG, NM, and Meph. are just repeating your opinions over and over again. Which only shows how vocal you are about your opinions.


There is No Consensus on the subject of weather or not, or how a Spirit Fox can be a mage.

Do take the time to actually list the three others that believe you can learn to have PPE when your race is directly banned from having it, and include whether or not they're also those who've said 'eh if he wants it I'd let him have it, the rules aren't that important'. I don't believe anyone actually thinks you can learn to have PPE when your race is banned from having it, like Fox Spirits. The only ones who've said they'd approve Fox Spirits taking Mystic Studies were clearly stating they were ignoring the canon material to allow it as a house rule and not that they felt it was actually allowed under the rules. So yes there has been consensus that you can't by canon have a Fox Spirit be a Mystic Studies character, only some that would allow it anyway under 'GM's Prerogative'.

It's also 'whether' not 'weather'.

[say652]

since palladium DOES NOT run palladium sanctioned games for its players, go to town man MUNCH IT UP!!!!!!!!!

[drewkitty ~..~]

Note, to have a consensus, everyone has to agree. Not three people talking so much about their choice of opinion about things that to them it appears to them that they are right.

So I am correct in saying that there is no consensus about the subject.

And since there is not text saying that SF can't, then saying that they "absolutely can't" is stepping outside what the text says. Thus you may be as correct as I am.

So if you want to follow the rules as you you can't state they "absolutely can't" with out the statement falling into house rules unsupported by the text in the book. *yawns* Oh my, we come back to this little bit of technicality about your statements when you pronounce "This Is So!" about things which are not supported by the text. Which I've been pointing out for a bit now.

At least I supported my opinion with text in the book. (yes, I know you disagree about whether the text I use to support my opinion really supports the idea.) Not just making "pronouncements" about "This Is So!" *shrugs* This has gotten really boring.

No, you are not going to convert me to your opinion. So you might as well drop it.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, if the book says they don't have a base PPE, there honestly isn't any reason (remember we're talking about RPGs, where Spirit Foxes are real things...) a creature with an understanding (innate or trained) of the energy of the body can't learn to apply it to both their soul and spirit (with proper training). Now, if it's an issue of "the book says so" then where does it say creatures who do not have a base PPE cannot learn to use it?

I'm asking because I don't know, it's not a challenge to your omnipotence.


That all said, Drew, do what you want. I personally don't like the idea of 100% chi beings anyway. I mean, it's a spirit without a soul? Buggerness.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Now, if it's an issue of "the book says so" then where does it say creatures who do not have a base PPE cannot learn to use it?

The thing is the book does not say 'yes' or 'no' on the subject.

So any opinion on the subject this post was turned into, is just that, an opinion.

I started out asking something for a char I was putting together for fun. I didn't think there would be any "controversy" about an SF being a mage. Since every living PB race can be a mage unless it specifically states they can't. While this is not something explicitly said in the text is it shown by the specific exclusions that are made.

[Nightmask]

Now, if it's an issue of "the book says so" then where does it say creatures who do not have a base PPE cannot learn to use it?

The thing is the book does not say 'yes' or 'no' on the subject.

So any opinion on the subject this post was turned into, is just that, an opinion.

I started out asking something for a char I was putting together for fun. I didn't think there would be any "controversy" about an SF being a mage. Since every living PB race can be a mage unless it specifically states they can't. While this is not something explicitly said in the text is it shown by the specific exclusions that are made.

No drew, the book does indeed say 'no' on the subject, you just refuse to admit that because then the neat idea you'd love to see tried out becomes non-canon and your issues over things being canon force you to insist on things that aren't canon as being canon to make them possible.

'Base PPE: None. Fox Spirits are creatures of pure chi.' That sentence is all it takes to preclude a Fox Spirit EVER having PPE. There is no ambiguity, the meaning is crystal clear, by being made of pure chi they can't have PPE. Infernal Demons include an explicit caveat that ONLY applies to them when it says 'but check racial abilities' where they alone have special abilities to convert some of their own Chi to PPE and retain it anyway. You CANNOT successfully argue that 'well that means Fox Spirits can do it too then!' because we already know that they can't, because they don't have any such racial ability listed.

You can keep trying to pretend everyone else has 'just an opinion' while you 'have it right' but you don't and you being the sole hold-out insisting on them having abilities that are contrary to the book doesn't mean their isn't a consensus just that you aren't willing to accept the results after you asked for feedback and the response was 'no sorry you can't do that and be book legal' so you've simply insisted 'well you just have opinions then because it must be book legal because it's what I want'.

Book legal, there's only one answer: Fox spirits can't be Mystic Study or learn any form of magic. Any support for the idea has always been of the 'who cares what the book says? Do what you want if it's fun for you', but for some reason you just can't accept that and keep trying to insist that the book allows for it when it doesn't. The book doesn't, if you allow it you're allowing something that's not book legal and it won't kill you to admit that.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Since it seems as though the OP is going to do what he wants anyways I'm abandoning this thread. Good luck.

I agree, it is like arguing with a wall. I see no point in trying to talk sense to someone who does not wish to actually listen.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, it's a different argument altogether, but I think PPE and Chi should never have been separate unless they were willing to explain it better.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Since it seems as though the OP is going to do what he wants anyways I'm abandoning this thread. Good luck.

I agree, it is like arguing with a wall. I see no point in trying to talk sense to someone who does not wish to actually listen.

I've been listening to what you were saying. But listening to what is said is not "Obeying", it is "Listening". Yes, I understand your arguments supporting your position. I just do not agree with your position nor your arguments about why you think your position is the right one. And that is all I see it as, "Your Position'/'Your Opinion'. Because that is what it IS.

If I had not "Listened" to what you had said, I would not had included your position in the list of positions I posts before.

And talk about arguing with a wall. I had three walls I was talking sense to and they were not budging as much as I was not budging.
------------
NM list where the text that Specifically says they are not able to learn magic.
The text in the SF's PPE listing is ONLY saying that they have no Base PPE.
So make sure you actually list the text that specifically says they can learn magic.

If you can not then you will only keep sounding like a scratched recored, repeating the same old same old overstepping interpretation you have been saying from your post one, with out Showing The Supporting Text that lead you to form that opinion. (Yes, yes, you have stated your thoughts about it. please state the text where you found where is says that SF, or that beings of pure Chi, can't learn magic.)

[Nightmask]

Since it seems as though the OP is going to do what he wants anyways I'm abandoning this thread. Good luck.

I agree, it is like arguing with a wall. I see no point in trying to talk sense to someone who does not wish to actually listen.

I've been listening to what you were saying. But listening to what is said is not "Obeying", it is "Listening". Yes, I understand your arguments supporting your position. I just do not agree with your position nor your arguments about why you think your position is the right one. And that is all I see it as, "Your Position'/'Your Opinion'. Because that is what it IS.

If I had not "Listened" to what you had said, I would not had included your position in the list of positions I posts before.

And talk about arguing with a wall. I had three walls I was talking sense to and they were not budging as much as I was not budging.
------------
NM list where the text that Specifically says they are not able to learn magic.
The text in the SF's PPE listing is ONLY saying that they have no Base PPE.
So make sure you actually list the text that specifically says they can learn magic.

If you can not then you will only keep sounding like a scratched recored, repeating the same old same old overstepping interpretation you have been saying from your post one, with out Showing The Supporting Text that lead you to form that opinion. (Yes, yes, you have stated your thoughts about it. please state the text where you found where is says that SF, or that beings of pure Chi, can't learn magic.)

No drew, you have to show where it says a creature without PPE and incapable of having PPE can still become a mage when mages must have PPE. Because that text regarding Fox Spirits doesn't say 'PPE: None' it says 'PPE: None, due to being pure chi beings' a critical qualifier because it ties the concept of not having PPE to being pure chi, making it clear that being pure chi precludes having PPE as well UNLESS you have a special racial ability to overcome that like Infernal Demons have. So without a 'Fox Spirits in spite of having no PPE can still become mages' line of text then no they cannot become mages, the text clearly makes it impossible.

You refuse to acknowledge that because again it means the conclusion you want to reach is impossible to reach, that of magic-using Fox Spirits so you claim the text is more limited than it is and insert ambiguity where it doesn't exist. You've seen all the text that arrives at the only possible conclusion one can reach if they acknowledge the material and the rules of English language and grammar. There is no reason to be redundant and include an 'obviously due to not having PPE Fox Spirits cannot become mages' line of text when we're told 'Fox spirits have no PPE and no means of possessing it', it would be the height of illogical rules-twisting rules-lawyering to try and claim 'well they didn't say they couldn't be mages so they can be even though they can't have PPE'.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Since it seems as though the OP is going to do what he wants anyways I'm abandoning this thread. Good luck.

I agree, it is like arguing with a wall. I see no point in trying to talk sense to someone who does not wish to actually listen.

I've been listening to what you were saying. But listening to what is said is not "Obeying", it is "Listening". Yes, I understand your arguments supporting your position. I just do not agree with your position nor your arguments about why you think your position is the right one. And that is all I see it as, "Your Position'/'Your Opinion'. Because that is what it IS.

If I had not "Listened" to what you had said, I would not had included your position in the list of positions I posts before.

And talk about arguing with a wall. I had three walls I was talking sense to and they were not budging as much as I was not budging.

I still fail to see how your argument makes any lick of sense, but we are going to have to agree to disagree. You are right in that I will not budge, so it is at a standstill and there is no point in continuing to argue it when there will be no agreement come to. As you have your answer you think is right, the thread question has been answered, at least to your satisfaction if not to that of others.