Deck plans, scale, and headache

[Robroy]

Ok, so I read the Spaceships baby spaceships thread and have come to the conclusion that I am not going to get deck plans anytime soon. I am running a game where the players are based on a Battle class ship ( or Ardennes class as RSCF called it). Doing some searching on the web, all the fan sights that mention it use the background from the unofficial Robotech Reference Guide. The uRRG list the ship as length 286.5 m (939.96 feet), height 52 m (170.6 feet), and width 81.7 m (268 feet). This is based on the OSM and I shouldn't get in trouble referencing the site as they don't have game stats.

I watched my DVDs and then printed out some images of the top and side to get some measurements of where stuff is to draw a basic out line on graft paper. Then filled in hangers, reactors, and decks. As I worked I have come to realize the people drawing the ships had no clue of naval architectural. Or I have really screwed up the scale (which I admit I could have done, but I have checked my math three times now). The DVD showed fighters landing in this huge bay ( those things on the side of the ship) but on the paper two Ajax could not fit side beside, let alone launch and recover a Chimera with a wingspan of 70.5 feet.

I checked the sizes the uRRG give for the Tirstar with that on Robotech.com and the Masters Saga. The size listed in the book is 100 feet wider then that listed on the other sites, and of course nether the book or Robotech.com has the Battle. So is it just me, am I missing something. Or is anyone else have this problem?

[Lt Gargoyle]

you just smile and wave. just smile and wave. NO i do not think they have ever had any naval architectural experience. And lots of the older stuff for sci-fi shows this. So you take it in stride and just work around this. or be prepared to rewrite everything.

[sirkermittsg]

how do you figure? 268 feet of width minus say 140 feet is 128 feet. that gets you side by side chimeras and lots of deck storage space to either side of them including space for a row of fighters in a hanger and some space for seperatation between them.

if you treated the launching and recovery operations like the modern carriers of today, you would normaly take off through doors on the front of the ship, and you land through another set on the back of the ship. thus two and possibly three or four actually depending on size could be taking off at one time on one deck - while landing operations are also going on. on modern carriers, the flight deck is in general not a place where they store most of their planes, they have a hanger on a seperate level. Also on a modern carrier they dont land two at a time, they land one at a time.

something to keep in mind here with regards to veritechs at least.... they are verticle take off and landng capable and they can stop on a dime....so with them at least they can stop, transform, and literlaly walk onto the deck from say doors in the sides of the ship. thus dozens could land at the same time actually .

[Robroy]

I know how a blue water carrier works, I served on one as a Hull Maintenance Tech (welder, fire fighter, and damage control instructor). At one point I have been through that ship from lowest bilge to the top of the island and end to end.

The Battle I figure would use one bay for recovery (it also looks like there is a hanger on the bottom) and the other for launch as the rear of the ship is thruster.

I was only giving the size of two Ajax as an example. The image of the top I am using is the Battle taking off from the moon. Using a ruler the side sponsons and central body are the same width (or there about) of just under 90 feet each, enough for a Chimera, till you add in internal structure.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, so I read the Spaceships baby spaceships thread and have come to the conclusion that I am not going to get deck plans anytime soon. I am running a game where the players are based on a Battle class ship ( or Ardennes class as RSCF called it). Doing some searching on the web, all the fan sights that mention it use the background from the unofficial Robotech Reference Guide.

My first piece of general advice about your problem would be to start by ignoring anything and everything in the uRRG site, as pretty much everything in their Masters Saga coverage has no connection to the animation or, indeed, anything else. I would extend most of that remark to the uRRG as a whole, since a lot of what's in there has no connection to the show or the OSM, and seems to have been made by just throwing a bunch of random numbers and technical jargon up to see what sticks.

The uRRG list the ship as length 286.5 m (939.96 feet), height 52 m (170.6 feet), and width 81.7 m (268 feet). This is based on the OSM and I shouldn't get in trouble referencing the site as they don't have game stats.

As I alluded to above, the reason you're running into problems trying to work out an internal layout that fits the animation for that ship is that the uRRG's numbers aren't from the OSM at all. In fact, there is no OSM information for that, or any other, class of ship in the Southern Cross animation (RT Masters Saga). There's very little OSM info for the entire Southern Cross series, with only the three or four most important robots getting more than a rough name (usually "<Branch of Service> Robot") and a single black-and-white picture, and many not even getting that much.

The ship design you're looking at there doesn't even actually exist... it's just a slight variation on the one ship design that was created for the planet Glorie's space forces in the OSM (what Robotech calls the Tristar-class). So what I would suggest doing would be throwing out the uRRG's numbers and using the Tristar-class's more generous numbers (461m/1512.3ft long, 107m/351.1ft wide, 101m/331.4ft tall) even though those are every bit as fanmade as the ones you got from the uRRG.

[Robroy]

Even if the numbers are made up the ratios between height, width, and length are right, but like Palladium did with the Tristar, the thing to do might be is just widen it by about 60 feet. I was just wondering if anyone else tried to create deck plans, ran into the same problem.

As far as the Southern Cross only having one ship class with different variants does not work. You can see the different ships sitting side by side. And they have different thrusters.

[Shawn Merrow]

you just smile and wave. just smile and wave. NO i do not think they have ever had any naval architectural experience. And lots of the older stuff for sci-fi shows this. So you take it in stride and just work around this. or be prepared to rewrite everything.

I think you will find the vast majority of spaceships on shows are at best designed by graphics designers and at worse directors or writers. I would expect the ones with naval architecture experience are busy doing that for much more pay then a TV show would provide. I remember the problems the staff of Last Unicorn Games mention when they had the Star Trek license. A lot of the ships from even Star Trek: TNG were just a picture and no other real info, no dimension, weapons or any tech info at all. They of course had fans who wanted full deck plans for every ship ever shown on the series. In the end if you want deck plans expect to have to rewrite some info or ignore some of the way it works in real world to make it fit.

[Lt Gargoyle]

you just smile and wave. just smile and wave. NO i do not think they have ever had any naval architectural experience. And lots of the older stuff for sci-fi shows this. So you take it in stride and just work around this. or be prepared to rewrite everything.

I think you will find the vast majority of spaceships on shows are at best designed by graphics designers and at worse directors or writers. I would expect the ones with naval architecture experience are busy doing that for much more pay then a TV show would provide. I remember the problems the staff of Last Unicorn Games mention when they had the Star Trek license. A lot of the ships from even Star Trek: TNG were just a picture and no other real info, no dimension, weapons or any tech info at all. They of course had fans who wanted full deck plans for every ship ever shown on the series. In the end if you want deck plans expect to have to rewrite some info or ignore some of the way it works in real world to make it fit.

I do agree with you there, completely. Especially of show from the 70s and 80s era. thats why i said that. I love Robotech, starblazer, captain harlock and many many more. But I would not trust them to have actually thought the whole ship process out either. I highly doubt that they even for one minute considered thier fans would demand such a thing. I personally wanted deck plans for the Galactica and base stars when i was younger. And would still love to get my hands on them. That said i just smile and have fun with what I have. I would not beable to design an actual ship and I know it. I also dont stress on the little details and have fun with the material as it is.

[taalismn]

you just smile and wave. just smile and wave. NO i do not think they have ever had any naval architectural experience. And lots of the older stuff for sci-fi shows this. So you take it in stride and just work around this. or be prepared to rewrite everything.

I think you will find the vast majority of spaceships on shows are at best designed by graphics designers and at worse directors or writers. I would expect the ones with naval architecture experience are busy doing that for much more pay then a TV show would provide. I remember the problems the staff of Last Unicorn Games mention when they had the Star Trek license. A lot of the ships from even Star Trek: TNG were just a picture and no other real info, no dimension, weapons or any tech info at all. They of course had fans who wanted full deck plans for every ship ever shown on the series. In the end if you want deck plans expect to have to rewrite some info or ignore some of the way it works in real world to make it fit.

Running into that problem myself graph-scaling my own designs and comparing them to existing Palladium designs. I've had to revise my original stat sizes and scales...and then I toss in the Palladium ships and find my 'small' ships are huge compared to the Hunter class destroyer.So yes, RPG and anime ships are designed for dramatic impact, not realistic dimensions. And ever since BattleStar Galactica, LONG hangar bay runs are the cool thing for fighters. It's not until Macross: DYRL that we see a more realistic zero-gee 'trapeze' simply pushing the fighters out and letting their own propulsion do all the work.

[Colonel Wolfe]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/C ... nition.png

yeah, there is only one ship in the ASC era... the "Tristar"... even the 1KM version that Carpenter flies back in is ust another "Tristar" design...

who cares if they REPEATEDLY animated as different designs, over an over, in multiple episodes, just believe what a random person tells you on the forum, and just ignore the Actual program.

[Seto Kaiba]

As far as the Southern Cross only having one ship class with different variants does not work. You can see the different ships sitting side by side. And they have different thrusters.

Different thruster configurations is one of very few design differences present... but the point I was tilting at is that there's only one ship design in the OSM for the Glorie forces. The creators don't seem to have actually for those variations on that design to exist, or made them up on the spur of the moment without coming up with an animation model sheet or any specs at all. (It does bear mentioning that ship variants with fairly significant differences in configuration have been considered to be the same class of ship in both Robotech and the OSM.)

I would still use the base Tristar dimensions and go with it as a different sub-class based on the same design as the Tristar, that way the internal spaces work out much more neatly, and it gives an implicit leg-up to the much-derided ASC forces by suggesting they have such a robust starship design that it can be adapted to do pretty much anything and has enough standardized parts that they can be built quickly and cheaply.

yeah, there is only one ship in the ASC era... the "Tristar"... even the 1KM version that Carpenter flies back in is ust another "Tristar" design...

C'mon man, you know that's not what I said... only one ship design in the OSM for the Glorie forces, what Robotech calls the Tokugawa-class was the ship design from the other colonized planet, Liberte.

[glitterboy2098]

yeah, there is only one ship in the ASC era... the "Tristar"... even the 1KM version that Carpenter flies back in is ust another "Tristar" design...

C'mon man, you know that's not what I said... only one ship design in the OSM for the Glorie forces, what Robotech calls the Tokugawa-class was the ship design from the other colonized planet, Liberte.

so basically, there is only two ships given detail in the OSM for SDC:southern cross, and the other classes we see either don't have concept art or stats available to the public, or were made without reference material at all?

[Seto Kaiba]

so basically, there is only two ships given detail in the OSM for SDC:southern cross, and the other classes we see either don't have concept art or stats available to the public, or were made without reference material at all?

Yes... and if you think that's odd, you don't know the half of it.

Back when the original Southern Cross first went to air, the publication of line art in hobby magazines and official books was really starting to take off. The school of thought that anime could be used for serious storytelling instead of being just elaborate toy commercials had really taken off, and it was already practically SOP for the show's creators to hype their new work in anime hobby magazines by releasing line art and details about the setting. Anime art books were also a big thing to do for new shows, where the creators could show off the creative process and publish all the production and concept art a series had. Exhaustive, almost obsessive, attention to detail was business as usual.

It's common knowledge that Tatsunoko's Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross wasn't conceived as a mecha show, but became one in mid-development, and that it was eventually canceled. The strange part is that, even though they did do magazine articles and an official art book, they published almost no line art for the series. The major ones are two little interviews and one art book, the most detailed of which was a short color insert in My Anime magazine, which made all of the line art very small, and focused mostly on small blurbs about each branch of the Glorie military. All that offered is brief explanations of what each branch did, a picture of their Arming Doublet variant, and a picture of the giant robot that branch uses (most of which have no name). The only mecha to get any kind of detailed coverage was the Spartas, which got only the most basic specs. The official art book, the 10th installment of the celebrated This is Animation series, had only a few cramped pages of actual line art and a hell of a lot of creepy lolicon material.

The coverage of ships was lacking even by Southern Cross's low standards, with most ships getting no printed art or information at all. Only the lucky few, like Major Lombard's ship from Liberte and the Zor Lords mothership, got both a pic and a caption. The unlucky ones, like the ship RT calls the Tristar, got nothing at all. No line art, no info, nothing.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

so basically, there is only two ships given detail in the OSM for SDC:southern cross, and the other classes we see either don't have concept art or stats available to the public, or were made without reference material at all?

That we have found. See, that is what's always left unsaid by some people. We know the designs exist because, quite simply, we can see them on screen.

Indeed, because these and the other second-generation naval vessels were all of similar shapes and painted in dark colors to minimize visibility in space, it was often only the engine configuration that allowed one to distinguish one vessel from another.

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha ... escode=RMA

The standard light starship of the later Expeditionary Force is the Garfish light cruiser. Almost identical in length to the earlier Banshee class destroyers, the Garfish qualifies as a cruiser by dint of its heavy beam cannon armament.

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha ... escode=NGE

[ESalter]

Ok, so I read the Spaceships baby spaceships thread and have come to the conclusion that I am not going to get deck plans anytime soon. I am running a game where the players are based on a Battle class ship ( or Ardennes class as RSCF called it). Doing some searching on the web, all the fan sights that mention it use the background from the unofficial Robotech Reference Guide. The uRRG list the ship as length 286.5 m (939.96 feet), height 52 m (170.6 feet), and width 81.7 m (268 feet). This is based on the OSM...

I don't believe there is much OSM for the Southern Cross ships; the uRRG crew just eyeballed the frames.

...and I shouldn't get in trouble referencing the site as they don't have game stats.
I watched my DVDs and then printed out some images of the top and side to get some measurements of where stuff is to draw a basic out line on graft paper. Then filled in hangers, reactors, and decks. As I worked I have come to realize the people drawing the ships had no clue of naval architectural. Or I have really screwed up the scale (which I admit I could have done, but I have checked my math three times now). The DVD showed fighters landing in this huge bay ( those things on the side of the ship) but on the paper two Ajax could not fit side beside...

The uRRG group says they found ship scale to be very inconsistent. (And the Battle page does depict a "single file" hanger.)

...let alone launch and recover a Chimera with a wingspan of 70.5 feet.

Perhaps the Chimeras were based on another kind of ship (they seem somewhat rare in space).

[Seto Kaiba]

That we have found. See, that is what's always left unsaid by some people. We know the designs exist because, quite simply, we can see them on screen.

Of course, if we're to add that particular caveat then we must add its unspoken corollary as well... that just because a thing appears in the animation does not mean the show's creators intended to do it, or even that it actually exists. There are lots of animation inconsistencies and errors in Southern Cross, some of which is directly attributable to the slipshod way the show was reworked as a mecha series partway through its development with very little attention to detail, while many other gaffes are evidently the result of technical limitations, time constraints, and eventually budgetary concerns. You can find all sorts of similar mistakes in the other two shows, where rushed or inept animators came up with things on the fly, did a poor job, or inserted in-jokes and references to their other works*.

Just because something is shown in the animation doesn't necessarily mean it's not an error, even in Robotech. There are very few instances where Harmony Gold has gone in and said "no, that's not an error in our version, that's totally a new mecha design"... the noteworthy instances being the "VF-1R" and the VF-1's "nose lasers", both of which are originally slips made by animation studios Tatsunoko liked to farm their share of the work out to (principally Korean studio StarPro).


* Noteworthy examples of errors include the VF-1 nose lasers, the VF-1A with three head lasers that Robotech calls the VF-1R, the different sweeps of the wings on the Shrewfield, the wildly varying scales of ships and mecha in the entirety of Southern Cross, etc. Examples of stuff done "on the fly" include the inexplicable Daedalus and Prometheus in orbit early in first few episodes of Macross, and some of the more random debris found strewn around in MOSPEADA. Examples of major in-jokes include the Skull-prowed Zentradi ship in "Love Drifts Away"/"Force of Arms" (to Studio Nue's redesign of Harlock's ship the Arcadia), the "Orguss Valkyrie" (to their next series, SDC: Orguss), etc.

The standard light starship of the later Expeditionary Force is the Garfish light cruiser. Almost identical in length to the earlier Banshee class destroyers, the Garfish qualifies as a cruiser by dint of its heavy beam cannon armament.

Prove to us, then, that the Banshee-class ship mentioned there one of the variant Tristar-class designs from the Masters Saga. Nobody can, because we don't have any specifics on any such "Banshee-class" ship and we have zero information on the actual composition of the Expeditionary Forces fleet between 2022 and 2043.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Prove to us, then, that the Banshee-class ship mentioned there one of the variant Tristar-class designs from the Masters Saga. Nobody can, because we don't have any specifics on any such "Banshee-class" ship and we have zero information on the actual composition of the Expeditionary Forces fleet between 2022 and 2043.

I just DID prove it. YOU are the one making the assertion that its just a variant of a large cruiser. YOU have to prove your point. I DID disprove your point since we have visual, dialogue and Robotech.com entries stating there are multiple ship types.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Like all second-generation Earth space naval vessels, and unlike those of the First and Third Robotech Wars, the Tristar-class was capable of easy landings on a planetary surface.

Indeed, because these and the other second-generation naval vessels were all of similar shapes and painted in dark colors to minimize visibility in space, it was often only the engine configuration that allowed one to distinguish one vessel from another.

We know its not talking about the Tokugawa as another 2nd gen ship, since it's listed as First Gen, and used by the UEEF.

Tokugawa-class Battleship
Also known as:
Super-Carrier of the early Expeditionary Forces
The first generation of starships to be designed and built purely by Earth engineers, the Tokugawa

so when the Garfist refers to the "Banshee"

The standard light starship of the later Expeditionary Force is the Garfish light cruiser. Almost identical in length to the earlier Banshee class destroyers,

We know the Early Destroyer was the "Oberth" for the first Generation....

Oberth-class Destroyer
Also known as: Space Destroyer

So I don't think this Banshee is referring to the 1st generation.... so it has to be an un-seen UEEF design, or on of the Designs saw in the Master's era, since the hulls are shown to have variable lengths in several pan-shots during the series...

I honestly, Don't have a dog in the fight, I'm for expanding the game, not trying to limit the game. and honestly, I'm finding it hard to use the forums for the free expression of ideas when you get attacked for posting something someone considers "non-canon".

Even if OSM sheets don't exist for the hulls, its easy to see that its a repeated design differance and has been touched apon somewhat by robotech fandom and even robotech.com to an extent.

[Seto Kaiba]

I just DID prove it. YOU are the one making the assertion that its just a variant of a large cruiser. YOU have to prove your point. I DID disprove your point since we have visual, dialogue and Robotech.com entries stating there are multiple ship types.

Um... not quite, no. You've cited visuals that are inconsistent at best, dialogue that is frequently no better, and a reference from a Robotech.com Infopedia entry that makes no specific reference to the alleged other ship classes. That's not exactly proof of anything. All I am saying here is that the alleged classes of ship mentioned by the uRRG do not officially exist, and that pointing to the animation as proof is not a 100% reliable tactic because there ARE things in the animation that are just errors or inconsistencies.

So I don't think this Banshee is referring to the 1st generation.... so it has to be an un-seen UEEF design, or on of the Designs saw in the Master's era, since the hulls are shown to have variable lengths in several pan-shots during the series...

Which is almost exactly what I just said to Rabid a few posts ago, that the ships being referred to in those vague and terribly incomplete Infopedia articles could be UEEF ships that are in service out in the greater galaxy during the 21 years of story we don't have coverage for.

I honestly, Don't have a dog in the fight, I'm for expanding the game, not trying to limit the game. and honestly, I'm finding it hard to use the forums for the free expression of ideas when you get attacked for posting something someone considers "non-canon".

Who's doing that? All I said was to throw out the uRRG's numbers as unreliable and base the ship's internal spaces around the larger Tristar's measurements because the ships are almost identical visually and it would neatly solve the internal space issues with the deck plans the OP was making.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

All I said was to throw out the uRRG's numbers

Uh, no you didn't:

The ship design you're looking at there doesn't even actually exist...

This is disproved by dialogue from the show, visuals from the show AND the Robotech.com entries.

[Seto Kaiba]

All I said was to throw out the uRRG's numbers

Uh, no you didn't:

Uh, yes I did... you're just being very selective with your quote to make it look like I didn't. If you'd copied the rest of it, you'd have noted this little gem in the very next sentence:

So what I would suggest doing would be throwing out the uRRG's numbers and using the Tristar-class's more generous numbers (461m/1512.3ft long, 107m/351.1ft wide, 101m/331.4ft tall) even though those are every bit as fanmade as the ones you got from the uRRG.

Almost word for word "throw out the uRRG's numbers", right there mac.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Almost word for word "throw out the uRRG's numbers", right there mac.

You said the ship designs do not exist. You're saying this because you can then say "Well, the Tristar Infopedia entry says the Army of the Southern Cross only has a few dozen ships". I ain't stupid Seto and I know why you do take the stands on stuff you do. So please, stop pissing down my leg and telling me its raining.

[Colonel Wolfe]

even though those are every bit as fanmade as the ones you got from the uRRG.

honestly, Calling the Official Stats on the Owners own webpage "Fanmade" is equal to saying all of Tommy Yune's work on Robotech is "Fan-made Fanon".

[Seto Kaiba]

You said the ship designs do not exist. [...]

Because, in practical terms, they don't. They aren't unique designs, they're slight variations on a single design that is the only ship mentioned in connection with the Glorie forces in the original. Likewise, they're not in any of the various new Robotech setting-related material, and even the RPG ignores them. Based on Harmony Gold's current leanings toward changes in ship design, with respect to severity of design changes, I would be forced to identify them as sub-classes that were based off a standard Tristar-class spaceframe. (Which ties into my original suggestion to the OP.)

You're saying this because you can then say "Well, the Tristar Infopedia entry says the Army of the Southern Cross only has a few dozen ships". I ain't stupid Seto and I know why you do take the stands on stuff you do. So please, stop pissing down my leg and telling me its raining.

Eh? To be honest, I not only hadn't considered that, I'd entirely forgotten the article even says that. Incidentally, let's not go making this personal so the mods don't get their knickers in a knot, 'k?

honestly, Calling the Official Stats on the Owners own webpage "Fanmade" is equal to saying all of Tommy Yune's work on Robotech is "Fan-made Fanon".

Just calling a spade a spade... those stats are fan-made. Tommy might've rubber-stamped them without paying any attention to them (half the problem with the current material), but they very clearly don't come from the OSM and they've got very little (if any) connection to the contents of the show itself as we have recently discussed in other threads. The stats lack and actual source, and were invented by fans rather than the creative staff, so they are fan-made. I doubt it would've passed muster if the current creative staff didn't see the Masters Saga as a waste of time.

[Robroy]

I should learn to double check some stuff before I post. Ok uRRG admits that the dimensions for some of the ships are guess work, but they do try to look for other back ground material that and the similar stats for their and Robotech.com's Tristar is why I was willing to accept them as a reliable source. The fact that the ships are hand drawn is probably why the dimensions very from scene to scene.

As for the OSM and one ship class, that just does not work for me. Putting a destroyer, a cruiser, and a battleship side by side and saying two are variants because they are similar design, even if they have some of the same systems, they are different classes.

Now back to the subject at hand.

Ok, so I read the Spaceships baby spaceships thread and have come to the conclusion that I am not going to get deck plans anytime soon. I am running a game where the players are based on a Battle class ship ( or Ardennes class as RSCF called it). Doing some searching on the web, all the fan sights that mention it use the background from the unofficial Robotech Reference Guide. The uRRG list the ship as length 286.5 m (939.96 feet), height 52 m (170.6 feet), and width 81.7 m (268 feet). This is based on the OSM...

I don't believe there is much OSM for the Southern Cross ships; the uRRG crew just eyeballed the frames.

...and I shouldn't get in trouble referencing the site as they don't have game stats.
I watched my DVDs and then printed out some images of the top and side to get some measurements of where stuff is to draw a basic out line on graft paper. Then filled in hangers, reactors, and decks. As I worked I have come to realize the people drawing the ships had no clue of naval architectural. Or I have really screwed up the scale (which I admit I could have done, but I have checked my math three times now). The DVD showed fighters landing in this huge bay ( those things on the side of the ship) but on the paper two Ajax could not fit side beside...

The uRRG group says they found ship scale to be very inconsistent. (And the Battle page does depict a "single file" hanger.)

...let alone launch and recover a Chimera with a wingspan of 70.5 feet.

Perhaps the Chimeras were based on another kind of ship (they seem somewhat rare in space).

Your right the uRRG pepole prety much guessed. That is why I changed my dimensions to length 969.96 ft, width 328 ft, and hight 170.6 ft. 30 feet longer and 60 feet wider then uRRG.

As for the Chimera they are listed in the Masters book as being on the Tristars and we see them on Carpenter's ship (Tokugawa class. Don't remember the name). Again utilizing real world design (I know, its a cartoon) when ship builders design a carrier, they look at the aircraft that is in service and what might be in service during its lifetime. So I made the bays a little bigger.

I made each deck 10 feet high for 17 levels. Some of that will be taken up with wiring and piping, yet still be high enough to cut down of feelings of claustrophobia during long deployments. The hangers are 50 feet, high enough for overhead cranes and any mecha that needs to walk around. The ship is divided into 16 sections by 15 transverse bulkheads ever 60 feet.

The hull is lined with a 'torpedo belt' stye system of voids. Unlike a blue water ship that has the belt at and below the water line, the possible 3 dimensional combat of space the design is on the top and bottom as well as sides. For those that are not familiar. In the case of this ship, inside the ships armor is a long, narrow space, a void, 10 feet high (1 level) 60 feet long (between the transverse bulkheads) and 2 ½ feet wide. Four of these voids side by side take up ten feet. They act to absorb explosions as well as heat and radiation from energy weapons. Some of the third inner most voids are used to carry potable water (841,500 galleons), stabilized liquid metallic hydrogen (1,683,000 galleons), and fire fighting foam (841,500 galleons) a total of 3,366,000 galleons. (comparable to an aircraft carrier). Some of the voids are not all used because of space needed for thrusters, sensors, airlocks, weapons, and escape pods.

Further in the ship are armored decks and bulkheads forming a box around engineering, consisting of the fold drive, reflex furnace, 2 conventional auxiliary fusion reactors, CIC, and a secondary bridge.

At least that is what I got so far. Slowly filling it in.

[Seto Kaiba]

The fact that the ships are hand drawn is probably why the dimensions very from scene to scene.

Been looking into that recently, and while I'm sure the conventional animation techniques in use at the time are partly the culprit, it sounds like a lack of animation model sheets and the studio trying to split its attention between the Southern Cross series and other projects.

As for the OSM and one ship class, that just does not work for me. Putting a destroyer, a cruiser, and a battleship side by side and saying two are variants because they are similar design, even if they have some of the same systems, they are different classes.

Eh... believe me, I understand as well as anyone that it doesn't work from a realistic perspective, but neither the OSM nor the Robotech version are quite in tune with real-world military practice. The original shows are generally better with stuff like that than Robotech, but even they occasionally tripped up in fairly spectacular ways back in the 80's. The best example I can give is the SDF-2 that was designed for the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, but didn't make it into the final cut because the epilogue was cut to keep Episode 36 from running over... it's designated the second Macross-class ship, but is 410m longer and looks quite a bit different from the first ship of her class.


Even with that in mind, the Macross universe(s) is generally much more precise about ship classification than its less prolific American cousin Robotech. The official RT stats are very vague and nebulous about the roles of the ships in service after the Macross Saga, with almost every ship having a defined role (or, occasionally, two mutually contradictory roles) at odds with how it's used in the show. For instance, the Tokugawa-class is supposedly both a super-carrier and battleship, even though the accompanying description and the show indicate it's pretty purely a carrier and is pretty much useless in a shooting fight. The Ikazuchi-class is another example, purely a carrier based on its depiction and listed capabilities, it's nevertheless inexplicably identified as a large cruiser instead. So I wouldn't advise putting a lot of faith in the specific roles, especially when those roles are largely the invention of the uRRG's writers rather than anything based on evidence.

Similarly, Robotech has also indulged in having ships that are outwardly visually similar, but almost totally different in everything from capabilities to physical dimensions, be the same class of ship. The Ikazuchi-class suffers from this in the Shadow Chronicles, where the series version and RTSC version of the ship have different dimensions (as visible in the official size comparison), are different internally (RTSC's version has internal hangar spaces, the series version uses six external quick-launch bays instead), and have different capabilities (the series version has passive stealth and lacks point defense weapons, the RTSC version has active stealth instead and sprouted eight point defense guns). Despite this, both are considered the exact same class of ship in Robotech's official materials.

The hull is lined with a 'torpedo belt' stye system of voids. Unlike a blue water ship that has the belt at and below the water line, the possible 3 dimensional combat of space the design is on the top and bottom as well as sides. For those that are not familiar. In the case of this ship, inside the ships armor is a long, narrow space, a void, 10 feet high (1 level) 60 feet long (between the transverse bulkheads) and 2 ½ feet wide. Four of these voids side by side take up ten feet. They act to absorb explosions as well as heat and radiation from energy weapons.

Hm... reminds me of a similar thing glitterboy2098 did with a remodeled Zentradi ship on his site. I'm not so sure about putting something as reactive as SLMH in a position where it's likely to get hit by nuclear bomb-scale particle beam weaponry though, that just feels like asking for trouble. I wonder, d'you reckon the UEG is supplying the water used on their ships from Earth, or would you have them processing it from ice on Europa and Ganymede?

[glitterboy2098]

even if the SLMH didn't fuse a bit apon being hit, making things worse, you'd end up with explosive decompression as the liquid spewed out the resulting hole in the hull. (every watch battlestar galactica? remember the start of the episode water?)

thats part of why i made the tween compartment water storage on the Freedom (which isn't actually in the 'tween hull spaces, but in some of the redundant outer compartments and halls along the hull) use frozen water, and systems to selectively thaw and freeze portions of it as needed.
if the hull is breached and hits ice, you don't get explosive decompression, and the stuff isn't likely to boil off and stream out into space. though you'd want to melt and purify that section before you do the major repairs. no point getting lots contaminants into the water if you can avoid it, even if you do purify everything before use anyway.

[ShadowLogan]

As for the Chimera they are listed in the Masters book as being on the Tristars and we see them on Carpenter's ship (Tokugawa class. Don't remember the name).

No the Chimera's are not seen on Carpenter's ship (the name is never given in the show IIRC), the only fighters his ship has are unique fighters of which we have no information on in the RPG (1E or 2E) or from the RT.com infopedia.

The uRRG calls it the AF-1 Vulture (I've seen other names suggested by fans also, the two squadron names in the episode are Brandy Wine and Firestar) which is a distinct unit from the AF-2 Chimera. The Additional Notes features, lists the main episodes the two fighters are seen in and they are not compatible (AF-1 only one episode, AF-2 in 3 completely different episodes).

[taalismn]

[. I wonder, d'you reckon the UEG is supplying the water used on their ships from Earth, or would you have them processing it from ice on Europa and Ganymede?

I reckon wherever the nearest large base is. Earth-locale ships get their water shuttled up(or tanked directly, if you're doing a bottom-of-the-gravity-well atmospheric landing and servicing), while outbound/outer system ships/forces harvest their water from the outer icy bodies(less hassle for massy tankers driving out from Earth).

[Robroy]

messed the quotes all up. see below.

[Robroy]

I have no idea why Seto's quotes is missing

[Robroy]

As for the Chimera they are listed in the Masters book as being on the Tristars and we see them on Carpenter's ship (Tokugawa class. Don't remember the name).

No the Chimera's are not seen on Carpenter's ship (the name is never given in the show IIRC), the only fighters his ship has are unique fighters of which we have no information on in the RPG (1E or 2E) or from the RT.com infopedia.

The uRRG calls it the AF-1 Vulture (I've seen other names suggested by fans also, the two squadron names in the episode are Brandy Wine and Firestar) which is a distinct unit from the AF-2 Chimera. The Additional Notes features, lists the main episodes the two fighters are seen in and they are not compatible (AF-1 only one episode, AF-2 in 3 completely different episodes).

ok. Your right. On an unrelated topic, does anyone know a good Alzheimer doctor.

[Robroy]

As for the OSM and one ship class, that just does not work for me. Putting a destroyer, a cruiser, and a battleship side by side and saying two are variants because they are similar design, even if they have some of the same systems, they are different classes.

Eh... believe me, I understand as well as anyone that it doesn't work from a realistic perspective, but neither the OSM nor the Robotech version are quite in tune with real-world military practice. The original shows are generally better with stuff like that than Robotech, but even they occasionally tripped up in fairly spectacular ways back in the 80's. The best example I can give is the SDF-2 that was designed for the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, but didn't make it into the final cut because the epilogue was cut to keep Episode 36 from running over... it's designated the second Macross-class ship, but is 410m longer and looks quite a bit different from the first ship of her class.


Even with that in mind, the Macross universe(s) is generally much more precise about ship classification than its less prolific American cousin Robotech. The official RT stats are very vague and nebulous about the roles of the ships in service after the Macross Saga, with almost every ship having a defined role (or, occasionally, two mutually contradictory roles) at odds with how it's used in the show. For instance, the Tokugawa-class is supposedly both a super-carrier and battleship, even though the accompanying description and the show indicate it's pretty purely a carrier and is pretty much useless in a shooting fight. The Ikazuchi-class is another example, purely a carrier based on its depiction and listed capabilities, it's nevertheless inexplicably identified as a large cruiser instead. So I wouldn't advise putting a lot of faith in the specific roles, especially when those roles are largely the invention of the uRRG's writers rather than anything based on evidence.

Similarly, Robotech has also indulged in having ships that are outwardly visually similar, but almost totally different in everything from capabilities to physical dimensions, be the same class of ship. The Ikazuchi-class suffers from this in the Shadow Chronicles, where the series version and RTSC version of the ship have different dimensions (as visible in the official size comparison), are different internally (RTSC's version has internal hangar spaces, the series version uses six external quick-launch bays instead), and have different capabilities (the series version has passive stealth and lacks point defense weapons, the RTSC version has active stealth instead and sprouted eight point defense guns). Despite this, both are considered the exact same class of ship in Robotech's official materials.

Yeah. One of the biggest things that drives me nuts is the descriptions of the 'new' UEEF ships that had to have point defense guns added because of the Invid swarming attacks. Like the Zentraedi never had a numerical advantage in Battle Pods (someone is letting politicians design ships again). Most of that problem is that Robotech comes from three different cartoons ah.. I mean anime.

As for classification of ships, that depends on who is doing it. One persons battle cruiser is anothers fast battleship. As for when a variant becomes a new class, again that is up to who ever makes the call. Look at WW2's Essex class carrier. It had a redesign called the 'long bow' or 'long hull', and later some were refit with angled flight decks. All still Essex class.

The hull is lined with a 'torpedo belt' stye system of voids. Unlike a blue water ship that has the belt at and below the water line, the possible 3 dimensional combat of space the design is on the top and bottom as well as sides. For those that are not familiar. In the case of this ship, inside the ships armor is a long, narrow space, a void, 10 feet high (1 level) 60 feet long (between the transverse bulkheads) and 2 ½ feet wide. Four of these voids side by side take up ten feet. They act to absorb explosions as well as heat and radiation from energy weapons.

Hm... reminds me of a similar thing glitterboy2098 did with a remodeled Zentradi ship on his site. I'm not so sure about putting something as reactive as SLMH in a position where it's likely to get hit by nuclear bomb-scale particle beam weaponry though, that just feels like asking for trouble. I wonder, d'you reckon the UEG is supplying the water used on their ships from Earth, or would you have them processing it from ice on Europa and Ganymede?

That is why the third void is used for storage. If it ruptures it spills into the forth void, if it penetrates the inner armor or splinter bulkhead, well there is bigger problems (like the cold soul sucking vacuum of space). Each void is 11,220 galleons, so how much more damage can it do when hit by a Mega damage weapon? At best I figure it will be vaporized (it can't burn), at worse it becomes a plasma then gets blown out into space (then again maybe that is why ASC ships seemed to blow up so easily).

I would say water is mostly recycled. What is stored is to replace what is lost and should last a long time. Initial stores are probably from earth (especially for the ASC) with resupply coming from space ice as they find it (for the UEEF). Going to get water for earth ships from another moon seems like a waste.

[Colonel Wolfe]

(then again maybe that is why ASC ships seemed to blow up so easily).

It really seams the ASC ships stay together better than the Oberth-class or the Ikazuchi class ships.
The Ikazuchi is the worst, being taken out by weapon-less invid scouts...

[Seto Kaiba]

I have no idea why Seto's quotes is missing

It's possible the boards are on the fritz again, though I've lost count of the number of times I've found myself wishing this place had a multiquote function.

Yeah. One of the biggest things that drives me nuts is the descriptions of the 'new' UEEF ships that had to have point defense guns added because of the Invid swarming attacks. Like the Zentraedi never had a numerical advantage in Battle Pods (someone is letting politicians design ships again).

It bothers me less that the "new" UEEF ships have point defense guns than it does that they're shown to be pretty useless against the Invid, even though the Invid are fairly slow targets and these guns are supposed to be light-years ahead of an ordinary modern point-defense gun. They just sort of spray lasers(?) ineffectually into the general vicinity of the Invid but never manage to hit much of anything. (The ships of the 1st Robotech War largely DID have point-defense guns, but only the SDF-1 ever got a chance to use the ones it had because the rest of the fleet suffered long-range obliteration.)

Most of that problem is that Robotech comes from three different cartoons ah.. I mean anime.

Less so than you might think. A lot of the problems are caused by the arbitrary way that Harmony Gold's creative director put together the official mecha specs, and the way they haven't been updated to reflect the way the continuity changed when Harmony Gold rebooted the Robotech universe. The Macross Saga and New Generation stats were just copied from the OSM, but without much of the OSM's detail and with a few bizarre and inexplicable changes foisted on the specs via the uRRG contributors who supplied the raw data. The Masters Saga stuff is completely made-up by the uRRG writers and reflects neither the contents of the show nor the current continuity. It certainly doesn't help that Mr. Yune has little knowledge of military affairs, which has led to him coming up with some incredibly screwy stuff too... like the way that all the official material pretty much ignores any ASC ships that aren't the Tokugawa or Tristar-classes, or the new material makes it so that the 3rd Generation mecha were somehow in service before the 2nd Generation mecha existed.

As for classification of ships, that depends on who is doing it. One persons battle cruiser is anothers fast battleship. As for when a variant becomes a new class, again that is up to who ever makes the call.

Naturally, though you'd be sorely pressed to find someone sane who would consider sticking a couple underpowered turrets on a super-carrier and call it a large cruiser or battleship... especially when fully 3/4 of those turrets can't fire at an enemy who approaches from any side other than starboard. If TPTB considers the series and "movie" Ikazuchi-classes to be the same ship, even though they're differently sized, proportioned, armed, equipped, and otherwise have almost nothing in common except their external shape to be the same class, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did consider all the various unnamed and unrecorded Southern Cross ship designs to be equipment variations off the Tristar-class.

(then again maybe that is why ASC ships seemed to blow up so easily).

It really seams the ASC ships stay together better than the Oberth-class or the Ikazuchi class ships.
The Ikazuchi is the worst, being taken out by weapon-less invid scouts...

Perhaps so, but when you consider how terrifyingly powerful energy weapons get in Robotech, it's amazing that one direct hit isn't enough to reduce any ship to a semi-molten ruin. The Oberth is at a natural disadvantage as it's the oldest ship class, and the Ikazuchi is so indefensible you'd swear the UEEF shipyards have a grudge against the two Admirals Hunter.

[Drakenred®™©]

I would say that the odds are fairly good for a lot of reasons that a lot of the "old" zentradi designs are of the "heavy water/Ice filled exo-hul" variety for a number of reasons

1 Reactor/Reaction drive fuel
2 waters ability to deal with certain forms of radiation
3) running the Engines you get free 02 that you can use to breath or as reaction mass.

I would say that "tanks" were filled with Ice originaly (partly as a heat sink, party due to Ices ability to compress as oposed to waters inability to compress very well)

I dont think they filled them with Metalic Hydrogen for a variety of reasons(superconductive propertys, inability to compress when shocked making it a good transmitter of any shockwave AND its Flamable) Protoculture may have reduced/elimiated the need for Helium/hydrogen isotopes as reactor fuel, and the Zentradi were more or less making do with "protoculture" modified/enhanced ships, kind of like if we had taken the old Coal fired pre Dreadnaught battle ships and suddenly fitted them out with nuclear power plants running electical generators to power the electric powered propellers, the coal bins are still there, and so are some the boilers but they converted them to Ammo dumps and Jet fuel tanks for the VTOL jets they added to the ship.

I tend to treat the Southern Cross

[Drakenred®™©]

Bascialy this is what you get when you try to cram multiple non related storys together, More or less if we had tried to somehow merge Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, seaQuest DSV, and Man from Atlantis and pass that resulting mess off as being a continuing story, Including the cornfeild.

[taalismn]

Bascialy this is what you get when you try to cram multiple non related storys together, More or less if we had tried to somehow merge Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, seaQuest DSV, and Man from Atlantis and pass that resulting mess off as being a continuing story, Including the cornfeild.

(shudder) Please, I was trying to forget that disaster....

[Seto Kaiba]

I would say that the odds are fairly good for a lot of reasons that a lot of the "old" zentradi designs are of the "heavy water/Ice filled exo-hul" variety for a number of reasons [...]

I'd say the odds are pretty firmly and definitively against it, on account of all the visual and line art evidence which shows that they're not. Zentradi ships, as they were conceived and animated, leave the space between the outer hull and inner hull compartments empty, except where there are things like airlocks and gun turrets and other equipment. The idea that the space between the outer and inner hulls could be filled with water/ice/etc. was put forth as part of a fan custom ship that'd been retrofitted for colonization purposes*.

* Zentradi ships have canonically been retrofitted for colony ship purposes in the original Macrossuniverse, and though we've never seen the space between the inner and outer hull on a retrofitted one, filling it with a liquid of any type wouldn't be consistent with UN Gov't shipbuilding practices.

Bascialy this is what you get when you try to cram multiple non related storys together, More or less if we had tried to somehow merge Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, seaQuest DSV, and Man from Atlantis and pass that resulting mess off as being a continuing story, Including the cornfeild.

As I pointed out earlier, this is actually less the case than some fans would like to believe... it's more an issue with how the official tech specs for Robotech's versions were put together, which often copied the OSM without much attention to detail (sometimes creating interesting errors), and almost invariably didn't try to normalize the levels of performance across generations. Skipping to the Aesop at the end, it's less the result of the shows being combined than it is laziness on the part(s) of the guys who came up with the official stats.

[Drakenred®™©]

As I pointed out earlier, this is actually less the case than some fans would like to believe... it's more an issue with how the official tech specs for Robotech's versions were put together, which often copied the OSM without much attention to detail (sometimes creating interesting errors), and almost invariably didn't try to normalize the levels of performance across generations. Skipping to the Aesop at the end, it's less the result of the shows being combined than it is laziness on the part(s) of the guys who came up with the official stats.

ok lets review, the first series is about a race of super giants who are flying what at one point was planed to be quazi organic star ships (this concept was removed before production, then kind of wedged back in, then retconed back out again, and I think is back to being canon in the original series) who have been locked into a War because the species that created them was actualy a bunch of Sufficently advanced morons who though that removeing there inhibition to kill there creators was a good idea...and the resulting fallout from generations of perpetual war and paranoiathat happens when the Zentradi stumble acrost earth.

The second series was about a bunch of Sociopathic Self Evolved humans who had one heck of a herb habit because it made them Imortal, Psycic, and very short sighted.....Incidentaly it was not set on earth

The Final series is about how an Alien species invades earth because the "queen" is into this whole "Self guided Evolution" thing so she goes about it by seeing how life evolved on another planet......(thus simultaniously making her the latest in a series of "Sufficently Advanced morons" that Sci Fi has inflicted on us) without stoping to think that hey maybee theres a reason why all of this life that she is recreating went extinct... never mind that in the mean time shes actualy causing another Inteligent species to go extinct....and darn near making her own species go extinct. so I guess theres kind of a link to all three. in that all three series boils down to the fact that the Universe has spawned enough Suficiently Advanced morons as to be a threat to earth.

[Drakenred®™©]

the impression I have is that they may be more or less trying to retcon what happend with the Nutron s missiles into making it sound like what the Hadonites had tried to sell the Others were more allong the lines of a " Directional Protoculture-Magnetic pulse" bombs that would knock out protoculture based lifeforms that were active outside of the blast area but the place where the bombs detonated would look like a "Tzara bomba" (Low yeild version) had hit. (IE the point of impact would be destroyed but the focus point would be the Invid bases so actual human casualtys would be low if not non existant. the basic idea being that we would be direct fireing on thoes bases with a if not multiple reflex cannons or better weapons anyway at literaly hundreds of locations on planet, the Bombs would do about that mutch damage to the enviroment at 8 locations, but would knock out Invid globaly without the need to fire 1or more SDF1 Level reflex basts at each hive) the Hadonites had aparently used both versions (the P-M-P pulse bomb and the Macro singulatity bomb) however aparently only the hadonites and the Invid knew about both versions, Rick going off to test fire one of the bombs resulting in the generation of the macro singularity would seem to indicate that he had no idea as to what was going to happen.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] ok lets review, [...]

Er... not to be rude, but I'd recommend you review the contents of your... um... review, for accuracy. Relevance too, but accuracy is the more pressing concern. Particularly in that first section, you seem to be confused, misinformed, or maybe both, resulting in almost everything in that paragraph being incorrect. The other two are closer to the mark, but have no relevance to the tech specs for ships and mecha.

The problem I alluded to earlier is that, when the Robotech official stats were compiled, Harmony Gold farmed all their research work out to a group of fans, who totally dropped the ball and whose accuracy left a lot to be desired. The stats were not in any way amended or adjusted to account for the disparate settings being combined into the single universe of Robotech, and also haven't been updated to reflect the realities of the post-reboot Robotech continuity. As an example, take the SDF-1... her Robotech stats give her about 200 VF-1s, 120 Ghosts, 150 destroids, and something like 50 support craft. The OSM version has almost twice as many VF-1s, and almost four times as many destroids. Or we could point to the ARMDs, whose stats line mysteriously downgrades their missiles from reaction warheads (RT equivalent: reflex warheads) to regular nuclear warheads. We could also point to the Veritech Hovertank, the main gun on which was inexplicably downgraded from a laser cannon (OSM and RT dialogue) to a solid ammo weapon. The Alpha fighter has been listed with a gun whose caliber doesn't match the physical dimensions of the weapon by a considerable margin. The Garfish class cruiser's stated size visibly doesn't even match the line art right next to its stats on its Infopedia page. And don't even get me started on how the RPG took that and made it even worse.

the impression I have is that they may be more or less trying to retcon what happend with the Nutron s missiles into making it sound like what the Hadonites had tried to sell the Others were more allong the lines of a " Directional Protoculture-Magnetic pulse" bombs that would knock out protoculture based lifeforms [...]

Your impression may be a bit off, as the Haydonites point-blank tell Admiral Hunter to his face that, now that his fleet has the neutron-s warheads, that he possesses the greatest destructive power in ages. They never make any attempt to disguise the fact that the neutron-s missiles are obscenely powerful weapons of mass destruction, they just skipped telling the UEEF precisely how they worked and how total that mass destruction would be. Yes, Rick test-fired one, but he knew already that it was going to be massively destructive... that's why they picked a totally lifeless planet to test it on, which they kept what they felt was a generously large safe distance from.

Even in the New Generation, they were never treated as anything less than weapons of mass destruction, the RTSC OVA merely upgraded them from weapons that would devastate Earth's surface to weapons that would make sure that there's not an Earth left after they go off.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Even in the New Generation, they were never treated as anything less than weapons of mass destruction, the RTSC OVA merely upgraded them from weapons that would devastate Earth's surface to weapons that would make sure that there's not an Earth left after they go off.

Actually, if you take the Commander of the SDF-4 at his word in Robotech...

Dark Finale
SDF-4 Commander: And between you and me, Sparks, if our mission doesn't prove successful, I've been ordered by Admiral Hunter himself to obliterate the planet completely.

Possibly hyperbolic, but definitely in-line with statements made by Exedore concerning the 'cruisers' being built on the Factory Satellite from a generation before....

[Seto Kaiba]

Dark Finale
SDF-4 Commander: And between you and me, Sparks, if our mission doesn't prove successful, I've been ordered by Admiral Hunter himself to obliterate the planet completely.

Ah, thank you.

Cruiser's which we never saw then, and haven't seen since...what proof that such obscenely powerful Gal;force level weapons actually existed before the Neutron-S missiles is minimal really.

Dunno 'bout that, Breetai's ship annihilates the fleet protecting the factory satellite with one shot of a "neutron cannon" in the series. That's obscenely powerful, all things considered.

[Drakenred®™©]

[...] ok lets review, [...]

Er... not to be rude, but I'd recommend you review the contents of your... um... review, for accuracy. Relevance too, but accuracy is the more pressing concern. Particularly in that first section, you seem to be confused, misinformed, or maybe both, resulting in almost everything in that paragraph being incorrect. The other two are closer to the mark, but have no relevance to the tech specs for ships and mecha..

I was refering to blending the Original Showes based on information I have picked up from various sources, my most recent source on the Original Macross series was based on a Interview of Shōji Kawamori and Haruhiko Mikimoto where Mikimoto basicaly ask Kawamori why they did not go with the Zentradi ships being more Organic than just the outword look, and Kawmori basicaly said that they felt things were complicated enough (artwise) so they droped the idea of the ships being also "actualy liveing" as oposed to being "living in the heart of the crew" and the Zentradi ships haveing a more "organic" look, but decided (in production for Macross 7) that for the Protodevilin that the idea that the ships and mecha were actualy "Living" beings might work for that faction and not the Zentradi.

So either the ORIGINAL creator of the show is missinformed about why HE decided to have the Zendi ships look the way they did, but still be "機械技術" (Literaly Machine Technology) as oposed to 宇宙ヒトデ(roughly giant space starfish) or things have changed since he originaly created the Original show, or hes changed his mind about how things are in his series (not imposible, he seems to have been doing that all along to be blunt, especialy since someone pointed out the reaction mass problem his own comentarys have brought up)

But again my original coment was about how we have to somehow fix the Mishmash that resulted from combineing completly unrelated shows and there backstories.

[Drakenred®™©]

第七心 looks like it was kind of a one shot FanMagazine type aparently printed by Big West Advertising Co., Ltd. let me see if I can find it published on line. (and no im not putting up scans without there permision first)(and given who our client is in Japan the anser will probably be the most impolite no imaginable in Japanise)

[Drakenred®™©]

Still, that isn't a planet. A single shot for the SDF-1 eliminates multiple enemy ships too (maybe not a fleet, but a double handful or so).

The ability to vape a planet simply never actually showed up...until TSC added the black hole bomb to the list. Like I said, sure, such weapon systems were out there, but humanities exposure to them was minimal if at all. We simply weren't up to snuff with what the big, big, big guns were really all about. I isn't at all surprising that Hunter et all underestimated the Neutron-S missiles. How could they encompass the power displayed there in their planning? Even what's his name (they guy that realizes what going on at the last moment...Rem maybe?) only started to suspect what was going on at the last second.

Well that depends on who actualy made them (there still Hadenite designs right? or has that been reconed again and were back to the 9th (first?) unit being succesfully testfired by the Hunters and then ordering they be used?) and what they told him.

ok watching the episodes again, Can I punch the narator now?

[Seto Kaiba]

Even what's his name (they guy that realizes what going on at the last moment...Rem maybe?) only started to suspect what was going on at the last second.

Um... dude, that was Exedore.

I was refering to blending the Original Showes based on information I have picked up from various sources, [...]

Uh-huh... "various sources". Sure. It's always a good sign when someone gets caught dispensing inaccurate information and then says "various sources" to cover it up, right?

my most recent source on the Original Macross series was based on a Interview [...]

This mysterious interview was published in...?

But again my original coment was about how we have to somehow fix the Mishmash that resulted from combineing completly unrelated shows and there backstories.

Putting aside your questionable (and likely absent) source(s), please learn the difference between pre-production concepts and the finished work.

To remind you, the problem(s) with the Robotech material were caused in large measure by copying OSM information without regard for continuity in the Robotech version, and nonsensical errors made by the people who provided said OSM information to Harmony Gold.

第七心 looks like it was kind of a one shot FanMagazine type aparently printed by Big West Advertising Co., Ltd. let me see if I can find it published on line.

Ah, a conveniently unavailable work... one that exactly nobody seems to have except you, and that you can't show anyone, by a company that doesn't actually print any such material. That explains a LOT about your "sources".

[Robroy]

Ok. Slowly working on the deck plans. New question. How many think the crew quarters that Palladium has put out before are on the large side?

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok. Slowly working on the deck plans. New question. How many think the crew quarters that Palladium has put out before are on the large side?

Good question.

My impression has always been that Palladium, like Harmony Gold, tend to base their impressions of ship interiors on roomier ships like those of Star Trek, where large-ish private rooms are pretty much the standard. Admittedly, the shows that make up Robotech never really showed the shipboard quarters of the grunts, only the junior and senior officers. They showed us Global's quarters in Macross, which were the size of a decent apartment, as befits his rank (his rank in the original was Brigadier General) and status as commanding officer of the UN Spacy's flagship. Roy had a pretty big room too, and even a low-ranking junior officer like Hikaru still had what passed for a decent dorm room with lofted bed and desk. My guess would be that the average crewman would be doubling or even tripling up in a small bunkroom, like the crew quarters shared by Alto and Michel in Macross Frontier, or Crewman Daniels quarters in Star Trek: Enterprise... bunks and whatnot in a room maybe 15 feet by 10? In keeping with precedent, I'd expect junior officers to have fewer roommates (or none on larger ships like the Tokugawa-class) and senior officers (Lt. Commander and up) to have private rooms that are progressively larger and more comfortable the higher their status gets. (The CAG, XO, and CO having the best cabins.)