New Alignment based XP Tables

[Natasha]

Have you read RUE?

[Natasha]

of course i have. the XP table is designed around being a heroic prevert. that's the whole point of the new tables. so that people in character can also advance.

Cool. I did not want to make assumptions about you. I just read them over and I do not see it the same way. “heroic” is only mentioned once and even then it is not a requirement for the awarding of xp.

[Akashic Soldier]

Whatever man. Evil characters get material wealth and power easier. Let good aligned characters have the fact that their sacrifices can matter and give them some advantage. If you said this to me in my game I would just kick you out of the group.

My players are mercenary enough as it is without further encouraging jackassery.

[GenThunderfist]

I really don't see what you mean. The tables are completely subjective. For an evil character "subduing a greater menace" is just killing off a hero who was after him. While for the hero the same XP reward is killing the evil character. Plus the XP for good roleplaying, making good decisions, making good plans, making your skill checks-Heck! You could even be evil and sacrifice yourself for the betterment of your team...all it takes is a bit of clever roleplaying and a good evil determination. Maybe I misunderstand the tables, but to me, they seem to cover everyone equally.

[Akashic Soldier]

I really don't see what you mean. The tables are completely subjective. For an evil character "subduing a greater menace" is just killing off a hero who was after him. While for the hero the same XP reward is killing the evil character. Plus the XP for good roleplaying, making good decisions, making good plans, making your skill checks-Heck! You could even be evil and sacrifice yourself for the betterment of your team...all it takes is a bit of clever roleplaying and a good evil determination. Maybe I misunderstand the tables, but to me, they seem to cover everyone equally.

Id say this one is you brother. The Experience point awards are designed to encourage nobility and heroics. The more good a character is the more often he will gain experience. If a character only cares about himself and gives up nothing to help anyone else he is passing up opportunities to earn experience.

[Natasha]

And me, too. Evil and selfish people can be as heroic as anyone else. The tables are not weighted on the side of good. If evil and selfish people cannot figure out ways to be clever and keep their adventure mates alive, which in turns helps keep them alive, then they don’t deserve to gain experience.

[Akashic Soldier]

And me, too. Evil and selfish people can be as heroic as anyone else. The tables are not weighted on the side of good. If evil and selfish people cannot figure out ways to be clever and keep their adventure mates alive, which in turns helps keep them alive, then they don’t deserve to gain experience.

Oh they can be... but why would they? Whats it in for them?

And that one thought--is enough to turn a selfless act into a selfish act and thus offer them sweet FA experience.
Or at least not as much.

[Akashic Soldier]

I'm sorry but the XP tables as written, Generally require you to mostly behave like a suicidal saint to earn xp. or roll endlessly on skill tasks.
quite frankly, that sort of behavior leads to Slow to nil advancement.
these tables will reward playing in character and give xp for doing things that exemplify their alignment.

for example: under the current system, if a diabloic character engages in mayhem .. he earns NO xp or maybe 50pts.
but it's entirely in character for mayhem.... same with selfish characters. ( in otherwords, Imagine how much XP the project X kids earned for that epic insane house party...).. under palladium they'd be losing XP since very few heroics... for the scrupulous types..now for someone like the joker .. He revels in mayhem.. and knows how to create it city wide...on a level few others can compare.. but in palladium he only earns that 200 or 500 xp...

Youre overlooking the award for "playing in character."

He gains between 50-500 per threat he encounters and overcomes on his rampage. Not including good RP bonus or the skill checks he makes or fails along the way.

[Natasha]

And me, too. Evil and selfish people can be as heroic as anyone else. The tables are not weighted on the side of good. If evil and selfish people cannot figure out ways to be clever and keep their adventure mates alive, which in turns helps keep them alive, then they don’t deserve to gain experience.

Oh they can be... but why would they? Whats it in for them?

And that one thought--is enough to turn a selfless act into a selfish act and thus offer them sweet FA experience.
Or at least not as much.

If your adventure party survives, you are more likely to survive the adventure. Evil and selfish players have lots of motivation to be helpful and useful. It keeps them alive and it gets them what they want. The tables make no distinction between selfless and selfish. The XP is not based upon motivation but on deed.

[Akashic Soldier]

If your adventure party survives, you are more likely to survive the adventure. Evil and selfish players have lots of motivation to be helpful and useful. It keeps them alive and it gets them what they want. The tables make no distinction between selfless and selfish. The XP is not based upon motivation but on deed.

Um, are we reading the same experience point table? Where it specifically says SELFLESS ACT.

[Natasha]

I'm sorry but the XP tables as written, Generally require you to mostly behave like a suicidal saint to earn xp. or roll endlessly on skill tasks.
quite frankly, that sort of behavior leads to Slow to nil advancement.
these tables will reward playing in character and give xp for doing things that exemplify their alignment.

for example: under the current system, if a diabloic character engages in mayhem .. he earns NO xp or maybe 50pts.
but it's entirely in character for mayhem.... same with selfish characters. ( in otherwords, Imagine how much XP the project X kids earned for that epic insane house party...).. under palladium they'd be losing XP since very few heroics... for the scrupulous types..now for someone like the joker .. He revels in mayhem.. and knows how to create it city wide...on a level few others can compare.. but in palladium he only earns that 200 or 500 xp...

Is the mayhem clever? Is it using one's skill well? Is it in character? Is it a keen observation? Is it daring? Is it quick thinking? Does it save the character's own life? There are plenty of ways to award this character xp.

[Natasha]

If your adventure party survives, you are more likely to survive the adventure. Evil and selfish players have lots of motivation to be helpful and useful. It keeps them alive and it gets them what they want. The tables make no distinction between selfless and selfish. The XP is not based upon motivation but on deed.

Um, are we reading the same experience point table? Where it specifically says SELFLESS ACT.

It doesn’t. That’s why alignment is entirely irrelevant.

[Akashic Soldier]

If your adventure party survives, you are more likely to survive the adventure. Evil and selfish players have lots of motivation to be helpful and useful. It keeps them alive and it gets them what they want. The tables make no distinction between selfless and selfish. The XP is not based upon motivation but on deed.

Um, are we reading the same experience point table? Where it specifically says SELFLESS ACT.

It doesn’t. That’s why alignment is entirely irrelevant.

Your previous post is dead on but it specifically says SELFLESS. The book is open, its sitting in front of me, its right there.

I dont mean that isnt how you determine every xp award but it is one of the larger awards there and there is no award for "being a homicidal tool."

[Natasha]

Can you quote the line? I don't see it anywhere.

No but there is a reward for being a clever, skillful, in-character, keen, daring, quick-thinking homicidal tool.

[Akashic Soldier]

Can you quote the line? I don't see it anywhere.

No but there is a reward for being a clever, skillful, in-character, keen, daring, quick-thinking homicidal tool.

I don't NORMALLY do book quotes but since its open in front of me.

50-100 points for a small act of self sacrifice, or an action of kindness, mercy or compassion.
100-300 points for endangering the characters own life to help or save others.

You'll note, it does not say "to save himself." That could fall under 200 points for a critical plan or action that saves the character's own life and/or a few friends.

Now before you think... this proves nothing, flip to the alignment sections and actually look at what each of the selfish alignments will or will not do. Motivation plays a huge part in gaining experience in Palladium because Kevin wanted to reward heroics rather than tabletop jackassery.

[Natasha]

Can you quote the line? I don't see it anywhere.

No but there is a reward for being a clever, skillful, in-character, keen, daring, quick-thinking homicidal tool.

I don't NORMALLY do book quotes but since its open in front of me.

50-100 points for a small act of self sacrifice, or an action of kindness, mercy or compassion.
100-300 points for endangering the characters own life to help or save others.

You'll note, it does not say "to save himself." That could fall under 200 points for a critical plan or action that saves the character's own life and/or a few friends.

Now before you think... this proves nothing, flip to the alignment sections and actually look at what each of the selfish alignments will or will not do. Motivation plays a huge part in gaining experience in Palladium because Kevin wanted to reward heroics rather than tabletop jackassery.

You said “but it specifically says SELFLESS” where it says no such thing. I don’t know why the hell you’re running me in circles but I’m not going to play your reindeer games. It says nothing about motivation one way or the other; so you do not get to make crap up to suit your argument. Just because it does not say “to save himself” it does not mean the opposite must be true.

And now I turn to the alignment section and I read them again. I would ask you to show me where it says selfish and evil characters will never commit self-sacrifice, be kind, show mercy, be compassionate. In fact, some of those alignments directly contradict what you are claiming.

So...“Um, are we reading the same experience point table?” Clearly we are not.

[Akashic Soldier]

Natasha, there is no reason to make such barbed statements (and dont worry I am not one of these passive aggressive posters that is going to run off and report you and cry about it behind your back). But it says to and not and and I know its just one word but it makes a big difference to the meaning of the sentence.

Now, maybe it is just because of the language barrier but as I understood it:

self-sacrifice
noun selflessness, altruism, self-denial, generosity, self-abnegation

the sacrifice of one's own desires, interest, etc., for the sake of duty or for the well-being of others
self-sacrificing adj
self-sacrificingly adv

So this isn't reindeer logic or going in circles or me being a picky ***** about things. This is my understanding of what is written right in front of me. Now, in the alignments...

Actually do you want me to bother or do you think I am just talking ****? Because I don't want to waste either of our time if there is no chance either of us will reach a mutual understanding.

[Nightmask]

Can you quote the line? I don't see it anywhere.

No but there is a reward for being a clever, skillful, in-character, keen, daring, quick-thinking homicidal tool.

I don't NORMALLY do book quotes but since its open in front of me.

50-100 points for a small act of self sacrifice, or an action of kindness, mercy or compassion.
100-300 points for endangering the characters own life to help or save others.

You'll note, it does not say "to save himself." That could fall under 200 points for a critical plan or action that saves the character's own life and/or a few friends.

Now before you think... this proves nothing, flip to the alignment sections and actually look at what each of the selfish alignments will or will not do. Motivation plays a huge part in gaining experience in Palladium because Kevin wanted to reward heroics rather than tabletop jackassery.

You said “but it specifically says SELFLESS” where it says no such thing. I don’t know why the hell you’re running me in circles but I’m not going to play your reindeer games. It says nothing about motivation one way or the other; so you do not get to make crap up to suit your argument. Just because it does not say “to save himself” it does not mean the opposite must be true.

And now I turn to the alignment section and I read them again. I would ask you to show me where it says selfish and evil characters will never commit self-sacrifice, be kind, show mercy, be compassionate. In fact, some of those alignments directly contradict what you are claiming.

So...“Um, are we reading the same experience point table?” Clearly we are not.

Someone's missing the point that sacrificing some of your goals for others doesn't require those sacrifices to be based on being noble and good or can't be performed by someone who isn't good. Putting yourself at risk to save someone can be done purely for selfish or evil reasons, heck there's a whole raft of tropes regarding evil characters engaging in what are considered good acts, such as rescuing an arch-nemesis because 'only I am allowed to defeat you'. Look how often Vegeta got involved fighting for Goku against a villain because evil as he was he would risk his life to ensure his hated foe remained alive for him to defeat later on.

[Akashic Soldier]

Someone's missing the point that sacrificing some of your goals for others doesn't require those sacrifices to be based on being noble and good or can't be performed by someone who isn't good. Putting yourself at risk to save someone can be done purely for selfish or evil reasons, heck there's a whole raft of tropes regarding evil characters engaging in what are considered good acts, such as rescuing an arch-nemesis because 'only I am allowed to defeat you'. Look how often Vegeta got involved fighting for Goku against a villain because evil as he was he would risk his life to ensure his hated foe remained alive for him to defeat later on.

That is a valid point I suppose but Vageta was also on the path to redemption. Lets keep it away from specifics though and keep it focused on the spirit of the rules so it stayed focused on topic (as some people have been complaining I derail things.)

The evil person is generally less likely to see a reason to sacrifice himself or endanger himself to protect an innocent person. And so he is less likely to earn experience as quickly. It am not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE just that selfish motivation does matter. For instance, as I mentioned when I am quoting the experience awards. He wouldn't receive the experience points for self-sacrifice to save the person. Though he might receive the bonus for acting in character. Because he is not acting TO save the character but to advance his own agenda or to serve his own goals.

Those awards are there to REWARD players of good characters for giving the princess back her crown jewels after they slay the dragon when they could have easily kept them and made a small fortune. The evil character would most likely keep said jewels and kick the princess down the stairs for **** and giggles. Well, if he knew he could get away with it. Because to that kind of person their own personal satisfaction and goals are more important than those of others.

They need not give up anything. Ever.

Where as a good character generally has to make a lot of very hard choices and give up a lot to hold onto his character.

Its just like in life; an evil person who can cuts corners will get a head but the seed of wisdom and integrity can only truly blossom in a good soul who is willing to put others before their own needs.

[Natasha]

Natasha, there is no reason to make such barbed statements (and dont worry I am not one of these passive aggressive posters that is going to run off and report you and cry about it behind your back). But it says to and not and and I know its just one word but it makes a big difference to the meaning of the sentence.

Now, maybe it is just because of the language barrier but as I understood it:

self-sacrifice
noun selflessness, altruism, self-denial, generosity, self-abnegation

the sacrifice of one's own desires, interest, etc., for the sake of duty or for the well-being of others
self-sacrificing adj
self-sacrificingly adv

So this isn't reindeer logic or going in circles or me being a picky ***** about things. This is my understanding of what is written right in front of me. Now, in the alignments...

Actually do you want me to bother or do you think I am just talking ****? Because I don't want to waste either of our time if there is no chance either of us will reach a mutual understanding.

So the book says: “a small act of self sacrifice, or an action of kindness, mercy or compassion.” There is no language barrier, but there is the word “or”. Clearly selfish and evil people are capable of kindness, mercy, and compassion. Human beings are capable of altruism, even selfish and evil people.

The book also says: “endangering the character’s own life to help or save others.” Motivation is not given, so we do not get to infer it.

As for the alignments, yes, I want what I asked for. The Unprincipled character is a tortured good character. The others, the text tells us, specifically can be kind.

Sure the evil characters are not constrained by morals but they are constrained by such things as the primacy of personal security principle and the conservation of enemies principle. These are related and if a character is not careful with the company he keeps, then his company is as dangerous as is the enemy. And if he makes too many enemies, he will be overwhelmed.

[Akashic Soldier]

So the book says: “a small act of self sacrifice, or an action of kindness, mercy or compassion.” There is no language barrier, but there is the word “or”. Clearly selfish and evil people are capable of kindness, mercy, and compassion. Human beings are capable of altruism, even selfish and evil people.

The book also says: “endangering the character’s own life to help or save others.” Motivation is not given, so we do not get to infer it.

As for the alignments, yes, I want what I asked for. The Unprincipled character is a tortured good character. The others, the text tells us, specifically can be kind.

Sure the evil characters are not constrained by morals but they are constrained by such things as the primacy of personal security principle and the conservation of enemies principle. These are related and if a character is not careful with the company he keeps, then his company is as dangerous as is the enemy. And if he makes too many enemies, he will be overwhelmed.

Ask me again politely and I will indulge you. Remember, I am by no means OBLIGATED to justify or explain myself here. I do so in the hopes of resolving conflict and spreading understanding. Not to win internet arguments or change peoples minds.

[Natasha]

Indulge me? I never asked for you to indulge me or suggested that you owe me anything.
I asked you to answer a question. Twice. If you seek to spread understanding, you will either spread it or you will not.

[Akashic Soldier]

Indulge me? I never asked for you to indulge me or suggested that you owe me anything.
I asked you to answer a question. Twice. If you seek to spread understanding, you will either spread it or you will not.

It was the way in which you asked.

Okay, lets start with page 290 of Rifts: Ultimate Edition in which it says...

Likewise, a Miscreant evil character who has learned the value of friendship and begins to act kind, noble and compassionate, or forsakes his villainous ways, may go up to Anachist or Unprincipled, and eventually, even higher if he keeps it up.

This implies (at least to me) that character who are miscreant and value compassion and kindness move away from their evil alignment and up to the selfish alignments and it is then implied if they continue practicing such behavior may even become good characters.

And before you turn to the "Aberrant defense" I will point out that Aberrant characters are supposed to represent characters such as Ra's al Ghul and Lex Luther, men and women who treat their friends and subordinates with the utmost respect. These are not men and women that value compassion and kindness but rather a strict code which they expect others to live by (to the point where they often impose their will on others). I will go into each alignment on a case by case point if you would like and if you are actually receptive to what I am saying.

EDIT: PS: Sorry for the slow reply I was cutting firewood so to make up for it I have added a short video that if you can bring yourself to sit through it will better help you understand the mind of an aberrant (evil) character with seemingly just or noble goals. It all comes down to method and intent.

[Nightmask]

Indulge me? I never asked for you to indulge me or suggested that you owe me anything.
I asked you to answer a question. Twice. If you seek to spread understanding, you will either spread it or you will not.

It was the way in which you asked.

Okay, lets start with page 290 of Rifts: Ultimate Edition in which it says...

Likewise, a Miscreant evil character who has learned the value of friendship and begins to act kind, noble and compassionate, or forsakes his villainous ways, may go up to Anachist or Unprincipled, and eventually, even higher if he keeps it up.

This implies (at least to me) that character who are miscreant and value compassion and kindness move away from their evil alignment and up to the selfish alignments and it is then implied if they continue practicing such behavior may even become good characters.

And before you turn to the "Aberrant defense" I will point out that Aberrant characters are supposed to represent characters such as Ra's al Ghul and Lex Luther, men and women who treat their friends and subordinates with the utmost respect. These are not men and women that value compassion and kindness but rather a strict code which they expect others to live by (to the point where they often impose their will on others). I will go into each alignment on a case by case point if you would like and if you are actually receptive to what I am saying.

EDIT: PS: Sorry for the slow reply I was cutting firewood.

Afraid your examples are flawed, Lex Luthor and Ra's have no respect for their underlings and treat them poorly, Lex especially.

In regards to the passage you quote, it says if they start to VALUE those ideals that they MAY, over time, rise up the alignment table to more good alignments. That's quite unrelated to whether or not taking a bullet for someone constitutes being selfless and compassionate when there are other reasons one might do so (you're a diabolic sort out to rule the world but the person about to be killed is your only way of ensuring an Omni-sidal monster like the Mechanoids don't destroy the world you seek to conquer so you take the bullet at great personal risk none of which has anything remotely to do with being compassionate).

So your Diabolic character can gain those experience awards for saving others without even remotely having an heroic or compassionate thought because they make no allowances for why you're engaging in them. You can just as easily be Batman or the Joker taking that bullet for someone as long as you intended to risk yourself to save someone else you're going to get the reward whether it was for good reasons or evil ones.

[Akashic Soldier]

Afraid your examples are flawed, Lex Luthor and Ra's have no respect for their underlings and treat them poorly, Lex especially.

You are wrong and clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not even going to go into why but this is just... so.. wrong. I don't know if you are basing your opinion off the films but according to the DC bible for both the characters (which I have read because I have written for BOTH of them) both of them are listed as having a high regard for the lives of those in their employ. So.. just do not talk if you do not know what you are talking about.

In regards to the passage you quote, it says if they start to VALUE those ideals that they MAY, over time, rise up the alignment table to more good alignments. That's quite unrelated to whether or not taking a bullet for someone constitutes being selfless and compassionate when there are other reasons one might do so (you're a diabolic sort out to rule the world but the person about to be killed is your only way of ensuring an Omni-sidal monster like the Mechanoids don't destroy the world you seek to conquer so you take the bullet at great personal risk none of which has anything remotely to do with being compassionate).

And my point is Nightmask that if they do learn to value those things than their alignment moves up. Good aligned characters (as written within the Palladium system) value life, freedom and liberty. Characters who are not of good alignments do not. Its that simple.

A simple search of youtube will turn up this:

How Lex treats his minions.

[Nightmask]

Afraid your examples are flawed, Lex Luthor and Ra's have no respect for their underlings and treat them poorly, Lex especially.

You are wrong and clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not even going to go into why but this is just... so.. wrong. I don't know if you are basing your opinion off the films but according to the DC bible for both the characters (which I have read because I have written for BOTH of them) both of them are listed as having a high regard for the lives of those in their employ. So.. just do not talk if you do not know what you are talking about.

Lex Luthor has strangled a female subordinate to death just because he felt like it, so clearly you are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe Pre-Crisis some versions of Lex were more respectful but all the incarnations of Lex Luthor since don't have a clue what respect is other than something to use as a tool to manipulate people that aren't in their employ. That is derived from the decades of published comics about them.

In regards to the passage you quote, it says if they start to VALUE those ideals that they MAY, over time, rise up the alignment table to more good alignments. That's quite unrelated to whether or not taking a bullet for someone constitutes being selfless and compassionate when there are other reasons one might do so (you're a diabolic sort out to rule the world but the person about to be killed is your only way of ensuring an Omni-sidal monster like the Mechanoids don't destroy the world you seek to conquer so you take the bullet at great personal risk none of which has anything remotely to do with being compassionate).

And my point is Nightmask that if they do learn to value those things than their alignment moves up. Good aligned characters (as written within the Palladium system) value life, freedom and liberty. Characters who are not of good alignments do not. Its that simple.

A simple search of youtube will turn up this:

How Lex treats his minions.

Something irrelevant when it comes to a discussion as to whether or not the experience table for Palladium rewards only good behavior and doesn't pay off for those of Selfish or Evil alignment. You do not have to value life, freedom, liberty, or anything that Good people do in order to receive experience awards for such things as taking a bullet for someone because WHY you did has no bearing on the table only that you actually did so.

[Nightmask]

So you're taking a table that's not based on character alignment and replacing it with a set of tables based on what your alignment is as if somehow whether you're good or evil affects how you can learn? Because I really doubt Doctor Doom implementing a successful plan to steal the Silver Surfer's powers had his alignment matter when he gained experience for that, nor Reed Richards's when he came up with a desperate plan to defeat Doom after he did so.

The existing table is just fine, it doesn't care what your alignment is just what you're doing and if you were successful or not.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, it seems that we first need to break down how the current XP tables interact with alignments.
Rather than quote the text directly for such an extensive bit, I'm going to paraphrase passages, and if anybody takes issue about precise phrasing, we can quote the specific text as necessary to argue semantics.


RUE 296
-ZERO points for fighting just to show off, too proud to stand down, getting the rest of the group in trouble, or any "stupid or selfish reason.
Right there, that kind of takes a BIG bite out of selfish and evil characters' pool of potential XP.
Anarchist characters, for example, who are described as "always looking for the best deal and self-gratification," seem like the type to beat somebody up just to impress a girl, or a crowd. Their alignment includes the possibility of mugging and armed robbery, which would be combat initiated (if there is resistance) for "selfish" reasons (i.e., theft).
Evil alignments are for characters who are "willing to say or do anything to achieve their goals." So ambushing people just to kill them and take their stuff would be perfectly in line with their description, but since it would be for "selfish" reasons, they would get zero XP, no matter how tough the enemy is.

-50 to 100 XP for "avoiding unnecessary violence."
Do I need to explain why this one is skewed more toward Good aligned characters than to Selfish or Evil?

-50 to 100 points for a small self-sacrifice, act of kindness, or for compassion.
That's great for Good aligned characters, or Unprincipled characters, even Aberrant or Anarchist.
But for Diabolic? It goes against everything they stand for.

400-1000 points for a critical plan or action that saves the entire group and/or many innocent people.
The bit about saving the group could well apply to Evil characters, but most Miscreants won't care about saving innocents, and Diabolics never would, unless it was part of some larger, more evil scheme.
So a Diabolic character that plays true to type, and comes up with an critical plan that slaughters many innocent people... he can't get these XP points.
But a Diabolic character that goes against the very nature of his alignment (i.e., plays out of character), HE can get these XP.

100-300 points for endangering your character's own life to help or save others.
and
500-700 points for a "genuine life and death self-sacrifice where the character's heroism seems likely... to cost him his life."
Sure, that could include diving on a grenade in order to save your pet demons... but again, diabolic characters are described as "betray a friend without hesitation; after all, you can always find new friends."
And while there could conceivably be some situations where other Evil alignments might perform self-sacrifice, it's pretty clear that it's not in their basic nature- it's against their personality type.

Now, a lot of the lost XP could be compensated for by awarding points for "playing in character," but that currently hinges on doing so when it's difficult to do so, so that limits the amount that this could compensate for.
And, in any case, it doesn't change the fact that the XP awards listed are lost in the first place.

[Killer Cyborg]

avoiding unnecessary violence could be avoiding burning down an orphanage simply because the orphanage is not on fire. Just because a character is evil or selfish it doesnt mean they constantly take every opportunity to cause inconvinience.

Hm.
Well, that could re-balance things, or even tip it in the favor of Evil characters, if you give out XP every time the characters refrain from killing or causing mayhem.

the selfish reason on the first part is not selfish for the character but more selfish for the player. A selfish character will get points for mugging someone (probably not many though). But if a player has their character attack a random NPC with no motivation or provokatation "because they where looking at me funny" its not deserving of experience.

Just to dissect this a bit,
Why not?

Self-sacrifice for an evil or selfish character doesn't have to be a bad thing. remember that the 500-700 points dont necessarily require innocents to be saved. Thats just a given example to get the idea of the danger level. A villian could just as easily receive the points for sacrificing himself in some way to ensure that his evil plot/scheme where to proceed. Maybe an evil mage ignores the building collapsing around him so he can finish his ritual to summon a demonic entity. All likelihood has him dead but if he does manage to live through luck then he gets his 500-700 points for a life or death sacrifice.

Good point.
The specific text in the rules, though, is "small self-sacrifice, or an act of kindness, mercy, or compassion."
Yes, you're right that an Evil character could try for the points if he makes a self-sacrifice in order to implement an evil plan, technically speaking... but this section gives Good characters 4 options to gain points, only one of which is something that an Evil character could utilize.
So things are still tilted toward Good characters, unless you can figure a way for Evil characters to be as likely to benefit from acts of kindness, mercy, or compassion.

I can see a way for everything except one of the point examples (the one about compassion) to apply to an evil or selfish characters. Heck I can even do one or two FOR the compassion one. But then I don't need every single example spelled out for me, I have critical thinking skills.

As do the rest of us, but that doesn't mean we all see the same things or think the same thoughts.
So if you see ways to work the Compassion angle, let us know.
Then we can deal with the Kindness and Mercy.

[Hotrod]

I think rifts really needs these. I refuse to believe that the XP System means only the most heroic players get xp and level up. Selfish and Evil bastards get smarter and better too...

so I propose Selfish and Evil XP Tables!...
as you can guess it's related to the Marvel optional - Villain and Vigilante karma reward system.


I will get into specifics later today, I am busy with chores so I can't sit out and do the math right now..

Getting experience in any Palladium game is ludicrously easy as long as you keep track of everything your character does. Anytime your character uses a skill, BOOM, experience. Even if you only counted that, that's 25 experience for every skill roll, every strike, parry, and dodge. Keep a tally of the non-subjective experience like that, and you won't be hurting for it. I find the only really annoying times for experience is when the GM tries to remember everything that happened at the end, and just says 'screw it' and arbitrarily assigns points. When I GM, I have one of the players keep tally of all experience as we go so I don't have to. For subjective calls, I'll award points and tell the exp tally master, but I don't track it. It keeps things simple.

[Hotrod]

I think rifts really needs these. I refuse to believe that the XP System means only the most heroic players get xp and level up. Selfish and Evil bastards get smarter and better too...

so I propose Selfish and Evil XP Tables!...
as you can guess it's related to the Marvel optional - Villain and Vigilante karma reward system.


I will get into specifics later today, I am busy with chores so I can't sit out and do the math right now..

Getting experience in any Palladium game is ludicrously easy as long as you keep track of everything your character does. Anytime your character uses a skill, BOOM, experience. Even if you only counted that, that's 25 experience for every skill roll, every strike, parry, and dodge. Keep a tally of the non-subjective experience like that, and you won't be hurting for it. I find the only really annoying times for experience is when the GM tries to remember everything that happened at the end, and just says 'screw it' and arbitrarily assigns points. When I GM, I have one of the players keep tally of all experience as we go so I don't have to. For subjective calls, I'll award points and tell the exp tally master, but I don't track it. It keeps things simple.

that works if your gM lets you do it that way..
but most gms only count skill rolls once, and only if they matter in the session, regardless of the rules.. these are the gms that i am trying to create Tables for...

Woah... you mean, most GMs you've seen give the same amount to a guy who uses one skill one time in a game as they do to a guy who does like 300 skill uses? That seems a bit odd to me. As long as the player doesn't abuse it, I have no beef with a player having his character practice or work on projects.

Perfect example: In a PFRPG game, I had the players take several sailing voyages. Every day would be skill rolls for navigation, sailing, cooking, et cetera. All of which had an impact on the speed, direction, and course of the game. One character wasn't involved in sailing the ship; he played a musical instrument to entertain his friends on their long voyage.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think rifts really needs these. I refuse to believe that the XP System means only the most heroic players get xp and level up. Selfish and Evil bastards get smarter and better too...

so I propose Selfish and Evil XP Tables!...
as you can guess it's related to the Marvel optional - Villain and Vigilante karma reward system.


I will get into specifics later today, I am busy with chores so I can't sit out and do the math right now..

Getting experience in any Palladium game is ludicrously easy as long as you keep track of everything your character does. Anytime your character uses a skill, BOOM, experience. Even if you only counted that, that's 25 experience for every skill roll, every strike, parry, and dodge. Keep a tally of the non-subjective experience like that, and you won't be hurting for it. I find the only really annoying times for experience is when the GM tries to remember everything that happened at the end, and just says 'screw it' and arbitrarily assigns points. When I GM, I have one of the players keep tally of all experience as we go so I don't have to. For subjective calls, I'll award points and tell the exp tally master, but I don't track it. It keeps things simple.

that works if your gM lets you do it that way..
but most gms only count skill rolls once, and only if they matter in the session, regardless of the rules.. these are the gms that i am trying to create Tables for...

Woah... you mean, most GMs you've seen give the same amount to a guy who uses one skill one time in a game as they do to a guy who does like 300 skill uses? That seems a bit odd to me. As long as the player doesn't abuse it, I have no beef with a player having his character practice or work on projects.

Perfect example: In a PFRPG game, I had the players take several sailing voyages. Every day would be skill rolls for navigation, sailing, cooking, et cetera. All of which had an impact on the speed, direction, and course of the game. One character wasn't involved in sailing the ship; he played a musical instrument to entertain his friends on their long voyage.

I've only seen GMs hand out the Skill xp for making necessary/important skill checks, never for HTH rolls or other stuff.

[Killer Cyborg]

the selfish reason on the first part is not selfish for the character but more selfish for the player. A selfish character will get points for mugging someone (probably not many though). But if a player has their character attack a random NPC with no motivation or provokatation "because they where looking at me funny" its not deserving of experience.

Just to dissect this a bit,
Why not?

If you have absolutely no motivation as a character to slay some random NPC (i.e. no chance of earning money, fame, respect, power, equipment, you arent playing into a violent insanity, and you arent unnecessarily angry) and said NPC was not classified as any kind of meanece or opponent (so no XP to gain in that area) then not only is it not really a learning experience (thus undeserving of XP), its probably just a case of the player trying to derail the campaign.

This gets into what XP are supposed to represent.
If they're actual experience, then any one combat is as good as any other, motivations or consequences aside.
If they're supposed to be reward cookies to try to make players play a certain way, then motivation and such would come into play.

As for Menaces, if you start shooting at an armed person, they'll usually become a menace/opponent to you by their next attack.

if you see ways to work the Compassion angle, let us know.
Then we can deal with the Kindness and Mercy.

An evil character is in the midst of burning down a village, suddenly while using his "See Aura" ability, he notices a child with massive potential of some sort. The evil character then decides to spare the childs life so that he may raise him and later use him as a tool for evil (much like the angel of death and vengeance out of Mindwerks). [/quote]

Mercy:
Compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm

So Mercy is generally Compassion.

Compassion:
is the virtue of empathy for the suffering of others. It is regarded as a fundamental part of human love, and a cornerstone of greater social interconnection and humanism —foundational to the highest principles in philosophy, society, and personhood.

Which doesn't sound like you're describing.
Now, even a Diabolic person might feel compassion, but I don't see why they should be rewarded for doing so, as it is generally against their nature. It's something that they'd probably hate about themselves, and regret or try to quash.
It could be argued that this itself would be such a different experience from their norm that it should provide Experience Points, but if that were true, than Good characters doing stuff that's generally against their nature should provide XP, and the tables aren't geared for that.

The point of an alignment is not to determine every action a character takes, but rather the motivation behind said actions. Thus sparing the childs life is an act of mercy, the evil character did not break his alignment because he holds every intention of later using the child for evil purposes.

Now, the secondary definition of "mercy" is:
An event to be grateful for, esp. because its occurrence prevents something unpleasant or provides relief from suffering
And THAT definition could be used to cover your scenario, as "letting the kid live" prevents the kid from dying.
But this definition could also be used to provide an Evil character with XP for killing anybody who is unhappy, under the "provides relief from suffering" part. Which is fine... but it could also be used to provide GOOD character with XP for killing anybody who is unhappy, for the same reason. And that just doesn't make much sense, and would open a huge can of worms.

[flatline]

As a GM, the awarding of experience points is your tool for accomplishing the following:
1. provide a sense of accomplishment to the players independent of in-game goals
2. ensuring character advancement so that the PCs don't become stagnant
3. positive reinforcement for behavior you want to encourage in your game

1. is a consolation prize. Useful for maintaining the morale of new players, but beyond that, pretty worthless.
2. is pretty much worthless once the characters hit mid-level unless you want to start handing out thousands of exp each session. Award this type of exp privately.
3. is how you reward good play and encourage players to play the type of game you want to run. This is always useful and should be done in public so that other players can learn what type of behavior is rewarded.

If you want to play heroic campaign, then use the chart in the book since that's the type of behavior that gets rewarded.

If you want to encourage playing in character, then ignore the book since it will penalize non-heroic characters when they play in character.

If you want to encourage teamwork, then award exp when characters further the goals of the group even if it's not strictly in character to do so.

You get the idea. You could come up with a rewards chart for any particular kind of game that you want to play, but you're probably better off just winging it. A chart encourages rules-lawyering.

My advice to you (collectively speaking) is to throw out the book chart and decide what behavior you want to encourage in your game. Reward that.

--flatline

[The Beast]

I think rifts really needs these. I refuse to believe that the XP System means only the most heroic players get xp and level up. Selfish and Evil bastards get smarter and better too...

so I propose Selfish and Evil XP Tables!...
as you can guess it's related to the Marvel optional - Villain and Vigilante karma reward system.


I will get into specifics later today, I am busy with chores so I can't sit out and do the math right now..

Getting experience in any Palladium game is ludicrously easy as long as you keep track of everything your character does. Anytime your character uses a skill, BOOM, experience. Even if you only counted that, that's 25 experience for every skill roll, every strike, parry, and dodge. Keep a tally of the non-subjective experience like that, and you won't be hurting for it. I find the only really annoying times for experience is when the GM tries to remember everything that happened at the end, and just says 'screw it' and arbitrarily assigns points. When I GM, I have one of the players keep tally of all experience as we go so I don't have to. For subjective calls, I'll award points and tell the exp tally master, but I don't track it. It keeps things simple.

that works if your gM lets you do it that way..
but most gms only count skill rolls once, and only if they matter in the session, regardless of the rules.. these are the gms that i am trying to create Tables for...

Woah... you mean, most GMs you've seen give the same amount to a guy who uses one skill one time in a game as they do to a guy who does like 300 skill uses? That seems a bit odd to me. As long as the player doesn't abuse it, I have no beef with a player having his character practice or work on projects.

Perfect example: In a PFRPG game, I had the players take several sailing voyages. Every day would be skill rolls for navigation, sailing, cooking, et cetera. All of which had an impact on the speed, direction, and course of the game. One character wasn't involved in sailing the ship; he played a musical instrument to entertain his friends on their long voyage.

I've only seen GMs hand out the Skill xp for making necessary/important skill checks, never for HTH rolls or other stuff.

IIRC, this is how PB means for it to be done.

[Akashic Soldier]

I still do not understand why everyone is ignoring the award for acting your alignment. I think that Flatline's first 3 bullet points were dead on. The latter three however seem misguided to me and I would not recommend GM's hand out thousands of experience points privately to certain players. That seems immensely unfair to me, necessarily deceptive and likely to spark conflict. Nor do I think that experience is pointless at mid-level. I would argue that every point is important because you require so much!

Its supposed to show that being HIGH LEVEL is a monumental feat and something you can take pride in. "I have a 9th level character" should say to other players "Holy Cow, what kind of things has that guy seen and done!!"

Also, thank you KC. You have stated clearly my point which is always a relief when I just do not have the time to bother buckling down on the PC and breaking it down.

In closing guys (and girl), I think there are still lots of ways for evil characters to gain experience. However, I do not think they are entitled to receive the same (or special) awards good people receive because generally evil people take the most direct route to accomplishing the goals. An evil or selfish person is self-serving and rarely grow as much in character. Look up what gaining a level represents in R:UE (its in the beginning of the experience point section). Being high level doesn't only represent a greater level of achievement and skill, it represents a level of maturity and personal growth. Evil people RARELY have notable character and often do not understand the principles of compassion, love or understanding and why such things are actually important. This is the product of a lack of empathy and understanding and is a psychological short-coming. Being "evil" or "selfish" makes you less.

[flatline]

I still do not understand why everyone is ignoring the award for acting your alignment. I think that Flatline's first 3 bullet points were dead on. The latter three however seem misguided to me and I would not recommend GM's hand out thousands of experience points privately to certain players. That seems immensely unfair to me, necessarily deceptive and likely to spark conflict. Nor do I think that experience is pointless at mid-level. I would argue that every point is important because you require so much!

The second 1-2-3 wasn't a new set of bullet points. It was my commentary on the first 1-2-3. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

--flatline

[EmeraldToucanet]

Yeah the XP tables are, to an extent meant to encourage un-selfish heroic behavior. For example fighting to just show off gets 0xp, quite explicitly. I think if the player is just having their character do that to show off in a way that just amounts to being a munchkin (especially if it's not something the type of character they are playing really would be doing), then 0xp is warranted, but if they are doing it because it's in character, and roleplaying it well, then they should be rewarded with XP (though possibly there will be other negative consequences in game).
Playing in alignment is rewarded, but I think that playing in alignment (or more importantly just roleplaying in character well) just isn't rewarded enough by the XP table.

In fact some of the things that give XP according to the tables, shouldn't give XP for all characters (unless the situation for some reason specifically calls for it), as it could amount to really playing the character poorly, and I can see some players doing things just for the XP which are really out of character.

[Balabanto]

I always award XP with these three things in mind.

1) Level of danger to the group as a whole.

2) Did anyone have a really good idea that saved people?

3) Bonus points for cracking up the table in character.

Really. That's it. That's all I do. We try to focus on roleplaying and not on pointless bookkeeping as much. I award a lot of story award experience when a villain is dealt with or a plot ends, though. Characters gain between 200-400 a session.

[Akashic Soldier]

Yeah the XP tables are, to an extent meant to encourage un-selfish heroic behavior. For example fighting to just show off gets 0xp, quite explicitly. I think if the player is just having their character do that to show off in a way that just amounts to being a munchkin (especially if it's not something the type of character they are playing really would be doing), then 0xp is warranted, but if they are doing it because it's in character, and roleplaying it well, then they should be rewarded with XP (though possibly there will be other negative consequences in game).
Playing in alignment is rewarded, but I think that playing in alignment (or more importantly just roleplaying in character well) just isn't rewarded enough by the XP table.

In fact some of the things that give XP according to the tables, shouldn't give XP for all characters (unless the situation for some reason specifically calls for it), as it could amount to really playing the character poorly, and I can see some players doing things just for the XP which are really out of character.

this IS Exactly the problem with the official XP tables. They are designed for 1980s Comic book level morality...

with heroes being saints and anyone who turns evil ... is now deemed an npc and no longer playable.

Apparently the Ditto heads (who are ignoring this) ... .totally Ignore this and just assume you're Insane. Why would you want to encourage that! without even thinking things through.


besides. There are additional Methods of reigning in the madness... "Accumulating Bad Karma" is one of them, and that ensures the game doesn't Devolve into a VTM Larp that gets on the six o clock news for leading into actual crimes and cult labeling.

An All Rogues game Would NEVER use the Palladium Xp system --- that would turn the rogues into Non Rogues..

an All Villains game would ---- Never turn into an all Heroes game... unless the GM is a sadist and just lied about wanting to be villains..


an All Anti heroes campaign would RARELY ever advance cause the anti hero is not about showing compassion and kindness at a drop of a kitten from a 5 story window.

... what 1980's comic books were you reading?

Also games where the players play antagonists never work or last and normally end up with people mindlessly shooting non-combatants and twirling theor mustashes or acting broody. Which is just lame.

Listen to my arguement (even if you don't agree) being GOOD is harder than being evil so it merits a reward.

Also go rent Superman vs The Elite or pick up the "What's so funny about truth, justice and the Amwricsn way?" graphic novel. It will go leagues to helping you understand where I am coming from in regards to this. Plus I think you'd enjoy it.

[Akashic Soldier]

What you describe is Saturday morning cartoon villains or ones from james bond, which are suppose to be shallow shells because it makes the hero's actions that lead to the death of the villain, all the more understandable and justified.
-Pax

Youve never met truly evil people in your life it seems. I am not at all referring to Saturday morning cartoons I am referring to people who do not value or appreciate liberty, freedom, love, mercy or understanding and consider them to have no sanctity. These are people who would sell their mother down the river for drugs, people that cheat on their wives "because they can" or beat their children "because they had it coming."

These are people who steal "because I deserve it" or kill "because I am the strongest."

Evil has many faces and manifestations but by no means is what I am saying limited to saturday morning cartoons. And no where did I say they were short sighted people--I said they cut corners. Which I standby. Most evil people want the quick fix.

Also Rap, are you trying to be an unreasonable troll here on purpose or what?

[Akashic Soldier]

I'll admit defeat

I wish people wouldnt always think this way online. It was never a battle.

[Akashic Soldier]

Your arguments are not falling on deaf ears. Its just you are refusing to see things from anyone else's perspective. You're ignoring so much and just throwing around derogatory terms but I am just sorry to say... evil sucks. Being an anti-hero or playing a rapist or a cold blooded murder isn't cool or something anyone should aspire to. Don't get me wrong its understandable as a thought exercise or as an antagonist. But what you are proposing is a system which rewards antagonistic action in the role of the protagonist. This is neither psychologically nor an emotionally healthy way of thinking.

And before you point out that there are already Japanese video games dedicated to rape fantasy and being a serial killer I also think they are sick and if you enjoy them your morality is twisted and I think YOU are sick. Because those are terrible, terrible things to want to inflict on other people and the expression of such things as your imaginary avatar (something you champion in your own mind and use to represent a portion of yourself in a fantasy world) is just twisted and should NOT be awarded. Period.

Even World of Darkness encourages players to shy away from this style of play. Its not healthy. And you know... I am so sick of people coming down on GOOD. @^% you guys! I like playing Paladins (well.. I never have played one) BUT I WOULD like it if I ever had the opportunity. There is so much atrocity and crap in this world as it is that I see this game as an escape from the hell of every day life. Being noble and actually taking the hard path doesn't make you "Dark Wing Duck" or worthy of any sort of condescension. Its like no one has morality anymore. You are saying the game needs to be skewed to match your morals and your sense of ethics but if you are championing violence and villainy than what you actually want is the system to reward lack of morality. Its a joke. Why does everyone have to decapitate their enemies to be cool? Why do Vampires sparkle now? And... sorry, getting this back on point...

I get wanting to play a roguish character, dark, gritty, no non-sense.
I get wanting to play a game like a Heist movie with criminals.
I get wanting to play a character that people fear or respect.

I don't get why you feel that you should be given an experience point award for tearing open a baby like an old shirt and then using mind control to make her parents eat her entrails.
I don't get why you feel justified that acts of evil and villainy (which are nearly always motivated by greed, the acquisition of goods or malice) should be rewarded!
I dont get how you can come and attack the system which is the ONLY system I know that does actually reward nobility in its players.

If you want to slaughter people and be a rapist or a serial killer or a heartless killer... just deal with the fact that you are not going to level up as fast. Because coming on the board and complaining it is "injust" or "doesn't work" or "isnt fair" because you want to get experience for being "injust, unreasonable or unfair" is just so absolutely selfish and ignorant that I am dumb founded. It reminds me of a recent horror movie I watched called The Divide. In this the predatory instincts of the group turn inwards into destruction in what is ultimately a rather brutal and bloody scenario set in an apocalyptic setting as they descend into insanity. It was written as a moral lesson to show what can happen without ethics or sense of social judgment when it is survival of the fittest and you want to play that out and get rewarded for it.

Seriously? You want to commit acts of evil. You want to do terrible things to other imaginary people and be REWARDED for it?

Is that HONESTLY what I am reading here?

That you think the game is flawed or broken because you think you should be given EXTRA experience (because you will earn experience from doing this, just not as much) but yeah.. you want EXTRA experience for taking a vibro knife to someone on their knees at your feed pleading for their life?

Come on man.

[Akashic Soldier]

If Karl Prosek was doing that all day, I don't think he would last long as Emperor.
Deception is evil, and this is the basis for a Villainous Campaign.

I won't address the first part of your post but to say "it is a slippery slope" and that characters without regard for life, love or liberty are much more likely to take what they want. Women, power, I mean... how do you think Karl got where he did? You dig into his past and I am sure you'll find more than one skeleton buried in his closet. However I will address this quote (regarding Karl). You are right. Normally deception is wrong. There are always exceptions of course. A scrupulous character might think telling a kid his mother went to the other city (instead of telling them she was skinned alive) is one such example.

As for the Villainous Campaign have you ever actually played one?
I have. I have played in three separate attempts and "in my experience" they do not last because it becomes ridiculous (silly) or the players don't know what to do most of the time because most players are reactionary. Now, maybe it was just the guys and gals I was playing with but it was a pretty broad suite. The closest thing I have found that "works" for a Villainous Campaign is a heist game where in the players pooled their efforts to pull off massive robberies without getting caught (which I do recommend its lots of fun).

That said, playing a game where the POINT is to be evil... is just... the idea seems silly to me in the same way intentionally playing a munchkin game does. For instance if a GM came up to me and said "We're all going to be untouchable Gods in a world of ants" I would likely refrain from playing. I know one player that ADORES that style of play but it just doesnt offer me anything. I like to think of each game a bit like an episode of The Twilight Zone. A thought exercise and test of character. Anyone can do evil things but for me the FUN part of the game is standing there with the vibro knife at the villain's throat and thinking "If I kill him, its over... but does that make me any better than him?"

Its the exploration of the idea "Can I be responsible for letting this monster go?" or "Is there any other way of stopping this?"

I frequently use deception and misdirection in both my style of play and how I run a game and it doesn't necessarily have to be evil. Karl Prosek is evil because he only cares about himself and furthering his agenda. The same is true of his son (who is Aberrant) though he works within the laws set by his father where as Karl is the type of person that does whatever the #$^ he wants and THEN twisting the law to suit his needs or make his action seem just.

Miscreants and Aberrants are very playable characters in a campaign
Diabolic is only useful as a Multiple personality in a campaign.

I sort of agree with this.

There are ways to reward xp and control " Depravity" such as that of going out of your way to kill things sane people feel innocence/empathy towards.
I haven't even gone over these yet, and -- that's the only thing people are focusing on.

I don't and nor do I think anyone should. I think players should be allowed to sink as low as they like and do whatever monstrous things they feel is necessary to accomplish their goals. I just do not think that they should receive additional rewards for doing it unless it falls within one of the aforementioned experience award categories.

I see evil as a lack of discipline or social ill, a poison almost. The more you practice it the easier it becomes and the more justified it can seem. Its an old saying but its a slippery slide. I do not think it should be cut out of the game as in my opinion it is a really BIG part of it. I just don't think players should be awarded for the decent into darkness save by dark powers or other nefarious forces of temptation.

There is a reason that the bad guys don't always win. That doesn't mean it needs to be like in the 70's with Mickey Mouse but when evil is rewarded by the game master and evil is encouraged within the game than players will take the evil route (which is always easier and nearly always cheaper) which to me take away a big part of the game.

The experience point award table will still give evil aligned characters experience. It is just they are not going to receive the same huge bonuses for putting their life and limb on the line... and why should they? The LAST THING an evil (selfish) person is going to want is to put themselves at risk. So instead... they should focus on trying to get experience for avoiding unnecessary conflict, for acting in accordance with their alignment (which rough translates to "whatever is in their own best interest") where as a heroic or good character can pretty much only get experience when giving up something be it resources or time.

[flatline]

There's more than just Black and White, people. It's all about shades of Gray...

Every group has a range between Black and White that they're comfortable playing.

I've never played in a group that was interested in White but I have played with a GM that thought everybody should be Good...and it was the least interesting, most predictable game I ever played.

I've played many campaigns where the majority of characters were Anarchist, Miscreant, or Aberrant, and I never saw anyone behave the way you describe. And if someone did, the other players would have dealt harshly with the offender because that kind of behavior does not further the goals of the group. And that's not the kind of game we want to play. If the player didn't shape up, they wouldn't be invited back.

Now before you claim that we weren't really playing Evil characters, let me tell you: oh yes we were. But Evil doesn't mean that there still aren't lines that determine what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

There's more than just Black and White, people. It's all about shades of Gray...

Every group has a range between Black and White that they're comfortable playing.

I've never played in a group that was interested in White but I have played with a GM that thought everybody should be Good...and it was the least interesting, most predictable game I ever played.

I've played many campaigns where the majority of characters were Anarchist, Miscreant, or Aberrant, and I never saw anyone behave the way you describe. And if someone did, the other players would have dealt harshly with the offender because that kind of behavior does not further the goals of the group. And that's not the kind of game we want to play. If the player didn't shape up, they wouldn't be invited back.

Now before you claim that we weren't really playing Evil characters, let me tell you: oh yes we were. But Evil doesn't mean that there still aren't lines that determine what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

--flatline

Noted and I stand by my earlier assessment.

[Killer Cyborg]

Role-playing is primarily about putting yourself in other people's shoes, and this includes shoes that are very different from your own.
This includes playing characters who are evil, just as it includes playing people who are insane, or who are simply different from yourself in some other major ways.

The XP tables in the books reward people for being Good, and does not reward them (it even punishes them) for being Evil or Selfish.
Whether or not this is a good thing or a bad thing depends on what one thinks that XP tables should be there for, what purpose they are (or should be) designed for.

[Akashic Soldier]

I'll admit defeat

I wish people wouldnt always think this way online. It was never a battle.

Yes, it became clear that your ego was too inflated to have a real conversation or debate.
-Pax

You know what man. I have done nothing but be civil to you and look at how you talk to me. This is yet another example of WHY I do not post book references or bother explaining myself on this board anymore.

I never posted in this thread to debate (not that anyone is debating because in a proper debate a neutral third party tally's points to determine the "winner") and here on the board people just tend to yell at one another and say the same thing over and over and over without ever taking a minute to consider the other persons point of view or that their own could be possible wrong. I however, do. I play devils advocate for every one of my beliefs for months (sometimes years) before I open my mouth on them. So if that gives me an inflated ego, whatever man.

All I attempted to do was explain things so you could understand why they are the way they are.

What this is, is an attempt to water the lines down the lines of morality to present evil within the game as an acceptable play style that is superior to good in every way.

This is an attempt (and a clumsy one I might add) to vilify me because I do not believe that evil characters lend themselves to a productive game experience for all those at the table. But its about time people just suck it up and face the fact that evil is wrong and it hurts everyone around you. Maybe its funny to be a bastard (House) or cool (Lestat) or maybe there is something empowering about delving into the darkest part of human nature (Lycanthropy) but these are not things that should be glamorized and nothing that has been said here has made me believe otherwise.

Not because I am an arrogant *******, not because I am a goodie too shoes Dark Wing Duck or whatever the hell you guys want to call me but because nothing has been said that is even remotely convincing. Half of the arguments here are for Selfish Alignments anyway, which leads me to believe even more that some posters still don't even know the true face of evil or do not actually understand the implications of having no regard for love or life.

So if you have a valid point that you feel needs expression PLEASE DO I will always consider all the evidence and I always keep an open mind but just because I do not agree with you does not mean I am WRONG or have an INFLATED EGO.

The point I have been trying to make from the beginning is that evil characters should not be rewarded for being evil because if they were this thread would be a bunch of people complaining about how their party mates sold them all down the river and leveled up. Its not productive to a good game environment and certainly nothing we should aspire too.

[GenThunderfist]

I'm not trying to bash anyone here, I'm not trying to call anyone a bad GM, or be disrespectful, but honestly, the system works. I'm about to break down every single point modifier and explain my reasoning and give a little scenario. That's the great thing about Rifts, the only limitation is your imagination. If you can't come up with situations to fit the guidelines, then you need to rework your campaign, because they really aren't that limiting, only your mind is a limiting factor in a pen and paper game that YOU make up. Again, I'm not trying to cut anyone to the quick here...but come on people, wake up and open your mind to the possibilities. Everything I say here can happen in one solid play session. Trust me. I have only been playing solidly for 4 years, but I got a pretty solid handle on it. I learned from a couple really good GMs with plenty of Rifts experience. So, here's my take on the whole situation.

All quotes are from RUE Pg.296 "Experience Points Award Table: A Guide to Awarding Experience Points" --unless otherwise noted

First thing is right in the title. This table is a GUIDE, its not meant to be read as-is and set into stone. Which means direct quotes of the heroic actions that are used as a descriptive way to explain a scenario a character can earn the experience are MEANINGLESS.

Here we go:

Combat
Zero - points for fighting that's just to show off, too proud to stand down, gets the rest of the group in trouble, or any stupid or selfish reasoning.
25-50 - points for killing or subduing a minor menace.
75-100 - points for killing or subduing a major menace.
150-400 - points for killing or subduing a great menace. Additional Experience Points are likely.

This really shouldn't need to be explained, but I have a feeling it will have to be at some point anyway so here it is. A "Menace" is

men·ace
n.
1.
a. A possible danger; a threat: the menace of nuclear war.
b. The act of threatening.
2. A troublesome or annoying person: a toddler who was a menace in a shop full of crystal.
v. men·aced, men·ac·ing, men·ac·es
v.tr.
1. To utter threats against.
2. To constitute a threat to; endanger.
v.intr.
1. To make threats.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/menace

this means that, a menace for a hero could be anything from a street thug causing trouble to a demonic hellspawn causing mass genocide.
A menace for a selfishly aligned character could really be just about anything that tickled his fancy, from a streethug to the hero beating up said street thug.
A menace for an evilly aligned character is a heroic character who poses an actual threat. He doesn't even need to be actively hindered, just has to be threatening.

Zero points are anything that is not a Menace. No Zero level NPCs who are wondering the streets. No babies. No Children that are not of supernatural nature - such as a demon child.

Zero points also come from being stupid, such as lighting an orphanage on fire because "Meh."

The reason for the combat experience points is to show that the character has learned a bit or improved from the action. Killing a hero is improving an evil characters combat prowess. Killing a grandma of six who is bedridden with cancer is just being an ***hole(is this is against forum rules, please just notify me and I will change it quickly. I really don't want to retype this whole thing. I will correct any problems ASAP) and doesn't get XP for combat because your character literally learned nothing from it. It's like while chewing gum, I don't suddenly have an epiphany about punching a MD opponent.

Also, in the Zero XP section it mentions that a selfish reasoning gets Zero XP. This doesn't mean all selfish and evil characters get zero XP for killing off menaces. Its more like killing a child for a lollipop. It's stupid and selfish and gets no XP.

Other Actions, Reasoning & Role-Playing
10-25 points for performing the right skill (successful or not), at the right time, for the right reason. For mid to high level characters (4th level and up), this might apply only to skills performed when they are absolutely critical or done under stressful conditions.

Alright. EVIL PEOPLE HAVE SKILLS OTHER THAN "KILL INNOCENT CHILD". They have learned things too!!! This is easy! My evil/selfish character decides to use his Monster lore skill to see if the creature he is fighting can be caught and tamed so he can release it into an unsuspecting town. 10 XP *minimum* right there! I would probably rule 25 because that is a very good use of the skill for his alignment and in fact falls into a couple other categories that we will get into in a minute.

25-50 - points for a clever, but futile idea.

Evil people always have plans and idea, most of them clever, some of them futile. BOOM! 25 XP *minimum*. Like with that unleashing a monster into an unsuspecting town to cause mayhem and further some arbitrary goal that actually needs this town destroyed or distracted. Lets say the town has a Juicer Battalion on-hand that my evil/selfish character had no knowledge of. The plan was clever, but in the end futile. Look at all that XP.

25-50 points for using good judgment or one's power or skill well.

Heaven only knows that Good characters are the only ones who can use Good judgment. NO! All this is saying is that a plan is going haywire and you use a skill or power to fix it. Or you have a realistic and informed view on what you need to do in order to get a plan to work. Like using the power Speed Reading because you found a book that informs you of a single helpful instance in it's 1000 pages. That is good judgment and a good use of power, and could happen to any alignment of any character. BOOM! Another 25 XP *minimum*. My XP just keeps going up and up and up.

25-50 points for playing in character when it would have been easier not to.

Your evil character is insane with a phobia of snakes or something. He is being chased by a couple of heroes, sure he could kill 'em, but he doesn't really want to sustain the damage and would rather fall back and get some backup from some henchmen who could do all the dirty work for him, you know - he's a pretty lazy dude. He is about to make it when he realizes he hears a hissing in front of him. The hero's had dug a snake pit into the ground preemptively to cut off escape. The easy thing is to jump it. The one that gets you XP is to turn around and fight, because your character just pooped himself in fear and is never going to try something like that. That's both combat XP and playing in character when it really would have been easier to ignore all your flaws.

25-100 points for a clever, useful/helpful idea or action.

Back to capturing a monster and releasing it on that town to cause mayhem and a distraction (remember this is a necessary action, not because it sounded fun, that gets no XP - even heroes are subject to this, they only get experience when they complete a necessary action, not kicking a bad-guy in the nads while he was tied up because it was fun.). Let's say it worked like a charm. BOOM! 25 more XP *minimum*. Clever is necessary for this award, but then you only need it to be useful OR helpful, that's what the slash means. Plus that distraction was rather helpful to you and your team.

50-100 points for avoiding unnecessary violence; self-restraint or talking, bluffing or intimidating oneself (and associates) out of trouble or danger.

Again, although the wording may seem misleading pay attention to it all as a whole. Self-Restraint is key here, as is intimidating and bluffing to get out of danger. So, your evil / selfish character got caught. He lost all his things, and is down to his skivvies. What's a guy to do? He has no psionics and null-magic is in affect. He could bluff his way out with bold-faced lies. That's within his alignment. He could also try scaring his captor into releasing him. That's certainly within alignment. Let's say he's escaping. He is able to knock a guard out or kill him. He notices a biometric lock on the door out. He knows that killing a man will make it so his biometrics can't unlock the door, he watched Modern Marvels recently (Not making this up, it's all true). His instinct is to kill the man in cold blood. But he restrains himself, knocks him out, using his hand print to escape the building. There! Self-restraint! Sure, probably killed him later, but self-restraint was used, as well as avoiding unnecessary violence at the time. You didn't want him to wake up on you later, so you killed him. You still get the XP.

50-100 points for a small act of self-sacrafice, or an act of kindness, mercy, or compassion.

This is too easy. I was watching an Anime one time. It's called Speed Grapher...it was...ok...not the point here though. The main villain was obviously Diabolic. He killed for fun and his entire plot was to take all the money in Japan and burn it in order to sink Japan into economic collapse. Very evil stuff. In one scene he is shaking down a client for an outrageous sum. The client had almost all the money, but it wasn't enough and he was about to be killed - which was the deal he had made. His daughter comes out and sees the whole thing. She starts to cry and understands that her daddy needs money. She runs and grabs all her money she has - a few blue bills (obviously play money or Monopoly money). She hands it to the villain and asks for her daddy to be ok. He looks at the money and enters a flashback scene where his sister did the exact same thing for her dad, but he was killed anyway and she was slapped into the next century. It was one of the multiple reasons he became evil in the first place. Back in reality, he accepts the money as fair compensation, and tells the man to thank his daughter because she had just bought his life, with that he leaves. THAT IS AN OBVIOUSLY EVIL CHARACTER ACTING COMPASSIONATELY! He gets a minimum of 50 XP, but most likely will receive more. It even states in the Diabolic character alignment that the character may act kindly on a whim. They can do good things, it is all about role playing and the GM providing the chance for it.

50-100 points for insightful and helpful deductive reasoning or keen observation

Remember that little scenario a little back, with the biometric lock and such. 50 XP minimum. That was a helpful and insightful reasoning as well as a very keen observation. Evil characters pick up on things just as well as good characters. Just because you are evil doesn't mean you are dumb, deaf, and blind.

50-100 points for a successful daring or heroic action (whether it was clever or not)

Again, this is another one that you need to read carefully. Yes, it says heroic. Good catch - 50 XP for keen observing...but wait, whats this? OH! It says OR in there too? 100 XP for a keen observation with helpful insight. Yes, or means that it doesn't need to be both daring AND heroic, it just needs to be one of those two. So an evil character is under heavy fire. He sees a button that will unleash a hellstorm of missiles into a random village, blowing it up and achieving his mission prerogative. He is around 20 feet way, and behind cover. There are around 20 people plugging away at him. He can make it and hit the button in one action, but it's pretty dangerous. He goes for it. That is a daring action. It certainly isn't heroic in anyway. And even if he hits the button or not - it doesn't matter, he tried and he gets a minimum of 50 XP just for that.

75-150 points for playing in character/playing one's alignment when circumstance or powerful temptation begged otherwise.

I really can't believe I need to explain this one, but here it goes.

PLAYING IN CHARACTER WHEN NOT WANTING TO: For example, you the player, get informed of out of character knowledge by accident. The GM realizes his mistake and quickly tries to cover his butt, but it isn't fooling you. Lets raise the stakes and say that this information will basically destroy the next 4 hours of play in a matter of minutes. You don't act on the information. You get XP.

PLAYING IN ALIGNMENT WHEN NOT WANTING TO: Yes, this happens for evil characters as well. You and a close friend are playing together. Your characters barley know each other. You are offered a 200k cred. reward for the head of your buddy. You don't want to kill him, but your alignment begs otherwise Mr.I-Want-An-Evil-Character-So-I-Went-Diabolic. You kill him and get the money - after all, you can always get new friends. Money and XP.

That...was really really easy.

100 points for a quick thinking idea that was helpful.

Again, this is kinda like the earlier "clever, useful action or idea" but this is more like you came up with it on the spot and it helped you or a party member out. It's the difference between coming up with a battle plan in the middle of combat and thinking about it an hour before.

100-200 points for insightful or deductive reasoning that plays a huge role in a critical plan or saving lives.

I'll admit, evil characters might not go around saving lives all the time. They can, and sometimes they do - if only to kill them later themselves - but it is rare and far in-between. HOWEVER - this is where out critical thinking and reading skills kick in. Oh look! It's our friend OR. What's he doing here? Oh, apparently he is differentiating between playing a huge role in a critical plan and saving lives, because they are two different things. Thanks little buddy! Yes, if you remember that biometric lock I talked about around four or five sections ago, instead of having it lock the way out, it locks the main computer terminal that you have got to get into. You notice it and alert "friends" to it's details, you receive an unconscious scientist from your hostage pool, which allows you to get into the mainframe. BOOM! Another 100 XP minimum because you helped a critical plan succeed. And look! You didn't save anyone's life to do it.

200 points for a critical plan or action that saves the character's own life and/or a few comrades.

Yes. Villains don't take bullets to the face because it's fun, they try to save themselves. It is only required that you save yourself, nothing more. However, good henchmen are expensive, as well as the lilies you send to the widows and children of the ones you waste, so why not save a quick buck and get them out of the way of the explosion too?

400-1000 points for a critical plan or action that saves the entire group and/or many innocent people.

Here comes OR again. This is again used to note that you can save the whole player group, or innocent people to qualify for XP. Honestly, Villains may not care to much about each other, but if they are mutually benefited by the continued existence of each other (such as in a fickin' player group) they will do their best to save them. Plus, the whole group includes you buddy, your actions directly effect you, and if you save yourself, the others most likely will get saved too, more like an added bonus other than an intentional action. It's still worth the XP, selfish reasoning aside.

100-300 endangering the character's own life (self-sacrifice) to help or save others.

Again, way to easy. Remember that whole button scenario. Now put around 4 more party members with you and crank the enemies up to around 50. You still make a daring dash for that button. You succeed and barely make it out alive, within HP if not coming close to death. Yep, you were a helper, you get the 100 XP minimum. Again OR is back in this one too. You either help, or save others. But helping can be just as selfish and evil as not helping.

500-700 points for a genuine life and death self-sacrafice in a situation where the character's heroism seemed likely (or almost certain) to cost him his life...

I didn't bother with the flavor text after the necessary requirements because, lets be honest, not matter how often I say to look at my note at the top, none of you will, and I will get harassed about how confusing it is to read flavor texted scenarios in a rule book and it makes the head all mushy and suddenly the rules don't apply to evil characters and all my work would be for naught.

Heroism is defined as

her·o·ism
noun
1.
the qualities or attributes of a hero or heroine: He showed great heroism in battle.
2.
heroic conduct; courageous action: Pat's returning into the burning building was true heroism.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heroism

Yes, this talks about heroic characters, but bare with me.
Courageous is defined as

cou·ra·geous

adjective
possessing or characterized by courage; brave: a courageous speech against the dictator.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/courageous

Alright just a little bit linger here. I know if I left it here I would still get crap about how you can't be characterized by courage, nor can you be brave, if you are evil.

Courage is defined as

cour·age
 
noun
1.
the quality of mind or spirit that enables a person to face difficulty, danger, pain, etc., without fear; bravery.
AS A NOTE: There is a secondary definition to this word, however it is specifically marked as obsolete and thereby has no precedence in this conversation, nor definition for that matter. HOWEVER, it is provided in the hyperlink if you wish to see it.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/courage

And there you have it. To be defined as courageous you must show qualities of the mind and spirit that enables a person to face any difficulty, danger, certain pain, etc. without fear. Heroism is a courageous action. Heroism is all that is needed to complete this XP award.

You must be certain your character will likely die during an act of heroism. That's it. If you face certain death as an Evil character. Such as storming the gates of Chi-Town as a distraction, or leading the charge against Lazlo. Or maybe you are the first one in line to run out to the Dragon guarding the treasure you hope to hoard for yourself you little Anarchist. AND YOU LIVE AND ACCOMPLISH SAID ACTION. Either through cunning roleplaying, a good round of combat, or sheer luck of the dice. You receive XP.


IN SUMMATION:
So really, these tables do work. I think I proved my point effectively. It's all about roleplaying, and having a good GM. If you as a GM never give the player chances to play in alignment when it is easier not to, or set up a daring action. Hell, even giving the character a chance to act mercifully, then you are failing at your duty to your players. You are purposefully denying them experience because of your short-sightedness. It is your job to set this up, you job to set the point amounts, and your job to run the game. Kevin and his team can't hand feed you everything. It is your job to allow chances for player growth and development. If you can't GM and evil character or selfish alignments THEN DON'T. It's honestly that simple. I gave perfect examples for characters to do what they want and get plenty of XP. Don't blame the rules for something you control. GMs are effectively God of their games. Experience points gained are completely up to GM judgment. If a character does something really cool ingame, and it't not explicitly listed on the table, but certainly deserves some sort of reward. ASSIGN THE **** POINT VALUE. LOOK AT THE TABLE AND MAKE IT UP ACCORDING TO THE GIVEN VALUES AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS. That's what a GUIDE is meant to do.

Seriously, the experience tables work fine. You just need to figure it out as a GM, then get to crafting your story. Don't put frickin' cats in trees for the evil characters to save. That's not building the story right. Put heart tugging moments that relate to the character's backstory. Offer monetary or item rewards for betraying friends. Make it worth their while to be evil!


A note to Akashic:

I really don't think I misunderstood the tables. I think it just takes clever story weaving and a good GM to give evil characters the opportunity to grow and develop. Yes, I agree that evil characters will tend to amass power more quickly, and yes, if players sit around steal crap, running away, and killing innocent civilians all day, there will be not experience to be had. But with a good setup, some key moments for character definition, a great ultimate goal, and a few twists thrown in; an evil character can just as effective level up as a hero. It just takes good player and GM communication and understanding.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just so we're all clear about something:

Zero - points for fighting that's just to show off, too proud to stand down, gets the rest of the group in trouble, or any stupid or selfish reasoning.

Nothing about this passage says ANYTHING about the opponent being a helpless victim.
If you're an Anarchist street punk, and you decide to try to take out Stupendous Man, just because you want to impress your girl, you get ZERO xp, even if you somehow win- because you're fighting just to show off.
If you're Aberrant, and you're surrounded by Team Super-Duper, and you know that you don't have any realistic chance of winning, but you refuse to surrender to these goobers, then you get ZERO xp, even if you somehow luck out and win.
If you're a Miscreant thug, and you decide to attack two armed policemen, because you want to steal their weapons and vehicle, you get ZERO xp for the encounter even if you get shot several times and manage to still win... because you're acting out of "selfish reasoning."

Point of fact: acting out of "selfish reasoning" is often 90% or more of the entire motivation of Anarchist and Evil characters.

Of course, you might still get some points for Daring, or for a Clever Idea, or for some other stuff... but the rules clearly state that if you get into any combat for "selfish" reasons, then you don't get ANY xp for the actual combat itself- no 25-50 points for a minor menace, 75-100 points for a major menace, no 150-400 points for a great menace.
So if your character is selfish in nature, you're penalized up to 400 potential XP, simply because of your motivation.

Whether or not that "works" depends on whether or not you think that XP tables are supposed to be correcting character behavior, or whether they're supposed to be representing actual experience for various events and actions in the game.

Again:
Character A decides to attack Killerthon The Unbreakable in order to save an orphan, and he lucks out with a Natural 20 and some other good rolls... he gets 400 XP.
Character B decides to attack Killerthon The Unbreakable in order to save an orphan.... because Character B wants the publicity, not because he actually cares about the orphan in any way... and Character B lucks out just as much, and wins the combat.... he gets ZERO XP.
(both cases are ignoring other possible xp for daring, etc.)

If you think that this works, that's cool.
But you're not going to convince anybody who thinks that XP shouldn't exist to morally guide characters, to reward Good behavior and/or punish Bad/Selfish behavior, because they don't see the nature of the rules the same way that you do- even if you do manage to agree on the mechanics.
And vice versa.