Cyclone HtH damage.

[Alpha 11]

I've been thinking on this for a while, and I believe the new books are wrong on the HTH damage. The origianl books seem more closer IMO. For instences, in the episode were Lancer meets his old girl friend, they hide their veritechs in a cave and cover the entrence with rooks, big rooks, Anne getting stuck under a trooper's hand (which Scott seemed to lift easily)(BTW, it weighs 10 tons, so the arm shields could weigh anywhere from 500 to 1000 pounds, just by the look, IMO), two cyclones pushing a subway car, and lastly, Rook kicking (a flying kick it looks like and SDC damage in new books) an Invid throw the Sensor Eye (MDC in both books). So I have to conclude that if it is augmented strength, it has to be higher then listed, most likely 28-40. If Robot strength, 21-30, maybe more. Lastly, the running speed of the cyclone. Remeber when Scott was running along side Lunks truck, AND keeping up. So the minanum speed has to be 30 MPH, if not more. Likely 40 to 50 MPH, maybe the orighal 60. Again, this is just the from looking at the anime. So which do you think is closer?

[Tiree]

Well - let's put it this way:
A human in a cyclone under the new books is as strong as a Zentraedi Micronized.
I go for the Robotic Strength

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well - let's put it this way:
A human in a cyclone under the new books is as strong as a Zentraedi Micronized.
I go for the Robotic Strength

if i understand the rules in the Macross book, a Zent half's his macro sized PS and gets augmented... so generally they are not much stronger than normal humans, as I don't see rules that give Augmented Ps better lifting ability than normal people, but gives them the ability to deal 1MD on a punch at PS 24+.
I don't really recall the cyclone doing anything on level with robotic PS. that's a Macro Zents PS type, and they can wrestle down destroids and other Large mecha... cyclone get broken when stepped on by invid...

[Alpha 11]

Well - let's put it this way:
A human in a cyclone under the new books is as strong as a Zentraedi Micronized.
I go for the Robotic Strength

if i understand the rules in the Macross book, a Zent half's his macro sized PS and gets augmented... so generally they are not much stronger than normal humans, as I don't see rules that give Augmented Ps better lifting ability than normal people, but gives them the ability to deal 1MD on a punch at PS 24+.
I don't really recall the cyclone doing anything on level with robotic PS. that's a Macro Zents PS type, and they can wrestle down destroids and other Large mecha... cyclone get broken when stepped on by invid...

When did they get steped on?

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well - let's put it this way:
A human in a cyclone under the new books is as strong as a Zentraedi Micronized.
I go for the Robotic Strength

if i understand the rules in the Macross book, a Zent half's his macro sized PS and gets augmented... so generally they are not much stronger than normal humans, as I don't see rules that give Augmented Ps better lifting ability than normal people, but gives them the ability to deal 1MD on a punch at PS 24+.
I don't really recall the cyclone doing anything on level with robotic PS. that's a Macro Zents PS type, and they can wrestle down destroids and other Large mecha... cyclone get broken when stepped on by invid...

When did they get steped on?

in the Episode Reflex point. Rand and Lunk freak out when the invid step near a cyclone they turned on its side. the fact they were scared the invid would damage the cyclone by stepping them.

[Alpha 11]

Well - let's put it this way:
A human in a cyclone under the new books is as strong as a Zentraedi Micronized.
I go for the Robotic Strength

if i understand the rules in the Macross book, a Zent half's his macro sized PS and gets augmented... so generally they are not much stronger than normal humans, as I don't see rules that give Augmented Ps better lifting ability than normal people, but gives them the ability to deal 1MD on a punch at PS 24+.
I don't really recall the cyclone doing anything on level with robotic PS. that's a Macro Zents PS type, and they can wrestle down destroids and other Large mecha... cyclone get broken when stepped on by invid...

When did they get steped on?

in the Episode Reflex point. Rand and Lunk freak out when the invid step near a cyclone they turned on its side. the fact they were scared the invid would damage the cyclone by stepping them.

Well of course they don't want it to be damaged. It would mean Lunk having to take time to fix them, which would mean them not moving for a while. And if we were going by the MDC system, they wouldn't be completely crusted, just banged up.

[Tiree]

Well - let's put it this way:
A human in a cyclone under the new books is as strong as a Zentraedi Micronized.
I go for the Robotic Strength

if i understand the rules in the Macross book, a Zent half's his macro sized PS and gets augmented... so generally they are not much stronger than normal humans, as I don't see rules that give Augmented Ps better lifting ability than normal people, but gives them the ability to deal 1MD on a punch at PS 24+.
I don't really recall the cyclone doing anything on level with robotic PS. that's a Macro Zents PS type, and they can wrestle down destroids and other Large mecha... cyclone get broken when stepped on by invid...

Wait - Zent's on a power punch can kill (and I mean push their hand through the chest or face) of an unarmored human in the RT setting.

Now a Cyclone should just have a low Robotic PS score, and that would solve it quite well.

[Colonel Wolfe]

if i understand the rules in the Macross book, a Zent half's his macro sized PS and gets augmented... so generally they are not much stronger than normal humans, as I don't see rules that give Augmented Ps better lifting ability than normal people, but gives them the ability to deal 1MD on a punch at PS 24+.
I don't really recall the cyclone doing anything on level with robotic PS. that's a Macro Zents PS type, and they can wrestle down destroids and other Large mecha... cyclone get broken when stepped on by invid...

Wait - Zent's on a power punch can kill (and I mean push their hand through the chest or face) of an unarmored human in the RT setting.

Now a Cyclone should just have a low Robotic PS score, and that would solve it quite well.

no Zentradi can by the rules achieve a 24 Ps in miclone form, except for Dolza (overlord) and Breetia (high lord) types.
the Rest have a Miclone Ps range of:16-20 warlords (Khyron) 14-17 (aces) 12-15 (grunts). Making their augmented PS in micloen form a non-point as none actually achieve the minimum 24 PS to deal MD. (except for the extremely rare ones mentioned above).
the Cyclone's +8 PS added to the PC's SP, and making-it augmented makes most cyclones stronger than Miclone Zents. and Even so, the cycone has a 1D4 MD power punch no matter what its PS level is, which is way more than i would personally give it.

[ESalter]

WRT punching damage, definitely new (though still too high, IMO).

[Alpha 11]

Are we not remembering my examples ( points up )? I am looking for examples of the cyclones power here. Plus, I really have no problem with them lowering the MDC of the cyclones, it makes a little sence IMO.

[Colonel Wolfe]

the lifting and pushing ability imo doesn't warrant a increase in PS, which increases its ability to deal MD. but a simple mechanical change that give the unit more carrying ability/ lifting ability.
if Scott was running, it was prolly more along the lines of the hover/skim speed of 60 mph... in that same episode, unarmored Scott makes a 15-20ft leap strait up into the cockpit of the alpha too...
the problem is, Palladium isn't trying to mimic the anime in every way. its apparent by how they have delt wiht many other rules situations that the goal of the game isn't to re-create the series, but to make something else and name it robotech.

[jedi078]

By the RAW cyclones already have too much MDC, their weapons do the same damage as full size gunpods and auto dodge. Thus a low H2H combat damage isn't that big of a deal.

Of course I run things differently and apparently my players don't mind or they would have left my games on rpol already.
I kept the auto dodge, useaugmented strength for H2H dmg, lowered the MDC, reset the weapons damages, and used common sense in that the forearm attachments are interchangeable across models (some GM's are dumb and don't allow interchangeability). I also use the VR-40 series as the front line combat units and not the -50 series, which are more for pilot survival and support units.

[keir451]

I, personally, use the original books for the Cyclones running speed and strength. In the new books the CVR-3 is now an exo suit which adds to your PS & PP but only gives you slightly higher than normal human (SDC) strength and a 25% boost to running.
In the old books it was clearly written that the Cyclone had a PS: 40 (before the days of Rifts & the various strenghts) so I took that to be SDC strength and only the CADS could do MD. I could (and did) accept that the FEET & LEGS were more powerful than the arms and able to do limited MD approx. 1d4-1d6.
Of course I do mix and match quit a bit tho', I'll use weapons and vehicles from the newer books but keep old armor values as well as ship stats (the new Macross RPG is somehow missing the SDF-1's shield system) and speeds (I prefer .25c vs Mach speed for in system travel).

[FreelancerMar]

Page 31 1st edition Invid Invasion.

All Cyclone Hth Damage = Mega damage attacks.

If the damage was not on the MD scale then Rook would not be able to Kick attack the Invid EYE and take Invid mecha units out of the action. And yes this is shown onscreen on more than 1 occasion.

Also as the OP pointed out, the cyclone has been shown performing feets(OnScren) that it probably could not do if it did not have Robotic strength to back it up. I will have to go through the new TSC books to see how they re-did the Cyclones. It's been a while since I have looked/gone threw them.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I think rook kicking the eye out was done for dramatic effect, and not meant to show the normal ability of the cyclone. Much like how the Hover Tanks main gun is limited to 2 shots per melee in the RPG, even thou is shown in the show to fire 9-10 times in 15 seconds, the cyclone shouldn't have to mimic everything is does on screen in the show.

[keir451]

I think rook kicking the eye out was done for dramatic effect, and not meant to show the normal ability of the cyclone. Much like how the Hover Tanks main gun is limited to 2 shots per melee in the RPG, even thou is shown in the show to fire 9-10 times in 15 seconds, the cyclone shouldn't have to mimic everything is does on screen in the show.

WHAT!!!? You mean to tell me there should be no continuity between the anime and the RPG?

[Colonel Wolfe]

I think rook kicking the eye out was done for dramatic effect, and not meant to show the normal ability of the cyclone. Much like how the Hover Tanks main gun is limited to 2 shots per melee in the RPG, even thou is shown in the show to fire 9-10 times in 15 seconds, the cyclone shouldn't have to mimic everything is does on screen in the show.

WHAT!!!? You mean to tell me there should be no continuity between the anime and the RPG?

no, I think there should be a level of continuity, but the Designer/writer/publisher says no. and when it came t the hovertanks main gun, other posters agreed that the RPg was right. I'd like to see some consistency and said posters should agree that the cyclone si written right as well, even if it cant preform like it does in the Show.

[Tiree]

Wolfe - I would agree with you 100% that the game designer should be 100% consistent in game design. Having the game be internally consistent is a major factor for me. If it can't be, then that's where the house rules come in.

If you say X Gun is the biggest and baddest. Then it should be the top of the food chain. And if that X Gun consistently takes out the Y Badguy, then that gun should be able to 75% of the time take out that Y Badguy.

I think a lot of the consistency problem with Robotech comes down to there is no 'Mook' rules. Meaning, if you are not a Player Character, your a mook. And Mooks can get hosed no matter what they are in. While Players cinematically can do things that non players can do.

This was one of those features that I'd bring in from Star Wars d20 that I really liked.

[FreelancerMar]

I see only one problem with this Tiree.

It is more often than not that the PC gets treated as the Mook by the system. Much(most) of the time the system says that much of what you see in the show is, and always will be flat out impossable for the "PC Hero" to do no matter what which can easily turn into a game killer.

Thus ends this post.

[Tiree]

I see only one problem with this Tiree.

It is more often than not that the PC gets treated as the Mook by the system. Much(most) of the time the system says that much of what you see in the show is, and always will be flat out impossable for the "PC Hero" to do no matter what which can easily turn into a game killer.

Thus ends this post.

I don't believe so. If you set up a kind of universal protection system for the PC inside and outside of Armor/Mecha, then it should work. I've toyed with the idea of using a PC's SDC for both Armor and Mecha. You can reduce the MDC of Mecha by quite a bit then. But there has to be an increase for SDC as the player levels. So change the hit points go up by 1d6 per level, make it SDC. If you reduce the Armor of Mecha by 1/2 but leave the damage level the same, this should provide your 'Mooks'

In 1E - SDC was a bit higher I've found than in 2E. But I could be missing a 'Base SDC' somewhere. Right now I have for no better word, a Cyclone Rider with 40 SDC. In 1E, he would be around 80+6d6 for his level.

[keir451]

I think rook kicking the eye out was done for dramatic effect, and not meant to show the normal ability of the cyclone. Much like how the Hover Tanks main gun is limited to 2 shots per melee in the RPG, even thou is shown in the show to fire 9-10 times in 15 seconds, the cyclone shouldn't have to mimic everything is does on screen in the show.

WHAT!!!? You mean to tell me there should be no continuity between the anime and the RPG?

no, I think there should be a level of continuity, but the Designer/writer/publisher says no. and when it came to the hovertanks main gun, other posters agreed that the RPg was right. I'd like to see some consistency and said posters should agree that the cyclone is written right as well, even if it cant preform like it does in the Show.

You're right that there should be a level of continuity between the show and the game, unfortunately if the continuity were exact we'd have weapons that destroyed vehicles in one shot which wouldn't make for a fun game. In the end when you get difeerent authors for the various books you get THEIR ideas of continuity which are typically at odds with everyone elses ideas of continuity.

[Alpha 11]

I think rook kicking the eye out was done for dramatic effect, and not meant to show the normal ability of the cyclone. Much like how the Hover Tanks main gun is limited to 2 shots per melee in the RPG, even thou is shown in the show to fire 9-10 times in 15 seconds, the cyclone shouldn't have to mimic everything is does on screen in the show.

WHAT!!!? You mean to tell me there should be no continuity between the anime and the RPG?

no, I think there should be a level of continuity, but the Designer/writer/publisher says no. and when it came to the hovertanks main gun, other posters agreed that the RPg was right. I'd like to see some consistency and said posters should agree that the cyclone is written right as well, even if it cant preform like it does in the Show.

You're right that there should be a level of continuity between the show and the game, unfortunately if the continuity were exact we'd have weapons that destroyed vehicles in one shot which wouldn't make for a fun game. In the end when you get difeerent authors for the various books you get THEIR ideas of continuity which are typically at odds with everyone elses ideas of continuity.

I understand that. All I'm saying it should be posible. At least a chance of it happening. You know, roll of the die. And love this quot: Bubblegum Crisis, best anime/sci-fi/ for totally hot babes in Power Armor.!!!!
Like the others also.