Do Witches Have Free Will?

[Giant2005]

If a Witch makes a pact of lifelong servitude, are they compelled to follow that pact?
Obviously at the very least, unpleasant things is going to happen to that Witch if they ignore the commands of their master but do they physically have the capability of ignoring those commands?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes. they do.

[Jedrious]

That all depends on if you belive that Free Will can exist in a universe with working powers of prophecy

[Nightmask]

They have limited free will. An example of where that comes into play is seen in Rifts: Mercenaries where a witch thought he was going to get to run the mercenary company the evil god he was serving set up and was making the mistake of challenging the leader. All his nice witch powers failed him until he was willing to comply. So while yes you can defy the entity you've a pact with they have complete control over things and can cut you off and arrange punishment until you do comply.

[Ravenwing]

A witch is free to disobey her master at anytime.

Just as her master is free to withhold her power at anytime.

[Giant2005]

Okay next question:
If the Demonic pact gave you access to Diabolism, could that Witch then simply apply a Permanence ward to him/herself and then have the powers granted by Witchery be permanent?

[Ravenwing]

Okay next question:
If the Demonic pact gave you access to Diabolism, could that Witch then simply apply a Permanence ward to him/herself and then have the powers granted by Witchery be permanent?

Negative. The Witch has no powers without the demon/AI/God that empowers him, the same as a Priest. Except the Witch loses all PPE, as he has none.

[Giant2005]

Okay next question:
If the Demonic pact gave you access to Diabolism, could that Witch then simply apply a Permanence ward to him/herself and then have the powers granted by Witchery be permanent?

Negative. The Witch has no powers without the demon/AI/God that empowers him, the same as a Priest. Except the Witch loses all PPE, as he has none.

But that is the point of the Permanence Ward.
Wouldn't it make the empowering permanent?

[Nightmask]

Okay next question:
If the Demonic pact gave you access to Diabolism, could that Witch then simply apply a Permanence ward to him/herself and then have the powers granted by Witchery be permanent?

Negative. The Witch has no powers without the demon/AI/God that empowers him, the same as a Priest. Except the Witch loses all PPE, as he has none.

But that is the point of the Permanence Ward.
Wouldn't it make the empowering permanent?

No, as the power is fed to them by the entity it's not something that they can make permanent.

[Ravenwing]

Okay next question:
If the Demonic pact gave you access to Diabolism, could that Witch then simply apply a Permanence ward to him/herself and then have the powers granted by Witchery be permanent?

Negative. The Witch has no powers without the demon/AI/God that empowers him, the same as a Priest. Except the Witch loses all PPE, as he has none.

But that is the point of the Permanence Ward.
Wouldn't it make the empowering permanent?

Also I don't think that Permanence Ward applies to magical abilities. I'd have to go over the books, but it just doesn't seem to apply to such things. Spells yes. OCC abilities No.

[FreelancerMar]

IF I am not Mistaken, Most Pacts will not give you access to something that the empowering entity does not know either. Not that any empowering entity would be so foolhardy as to grant such abilities to a witch in the first place. Not only that but, wards and circle magic probably isn't something that most witches would want anyway espically when one has to continually and constantly gather ingredients just to make the magics work.

In Many ways the PB Style Pact Witch, is basically another type of Dark Priest. The main difference is that, unlike the Priest, the witch is essentially the Slave of the empowering entity. Giving up one's freedom for the power of a witch. isn't something to take lightly.

[Ravenwing]

IF I am not Mistaken, Most Pacts will not give you access to something that the empowering entity does not know either. Not that any empowering entity would be so foolhardy as to grant such abilities to a witch in the first place. Not only that but, wards and circle magic probably isn't something that most witches would want anyway espically when one has to continually and constantly gather ingredients just to make the magics work.

In Many ways the PB Style Pact Witch, is basically another type of Dark Priest. The main difference is that, unlike the Priest, the witch is essentially the Slave of the empowering entity. Giving up one's freedom for the power of a witch. isn't something to take lightly.

Nor is it wise to plot against your master as the OP is trying to do. The Thing to which a witch has made a pact with is incredibly powerful, and can read their mind at will.

[Giant2005]

Nor is it wise to plot against your master as the OP is trying to do. The Thing to which a witch has made a pact with is incredibly powerful, and can read their mind at will.

I don't think the A.I. can read the Witch's mind at will but either way, it isn't really important. What I was going for isn't really plotting against the A.I., it is a case of a Witch being hit by a Soultwist spell, and hating its own crimes. The Permanence Ward is intending more to keep the Soultwist spell active than it is to keep the Witch's power. It isn't a premeditated plot - if the A.I. is capable of reading the Witch's mind, the odds of it reading the Witch's mind at that moment would be quite low.

I just wasn't sure if the Witch was actually physically capable of ignoring a pact even with a change of heart.

[Ravenwing]

Nor is it wise to plot against your master as the OP is trying to do. The Thing to which a witch has made a pact with is incredibly powerful, and can read their mind at will.

I don't think the A.I. can read the Witch's mind at will but either way, it isn't really important. What I was going for isn't really plotting against the A.I., it is a case of a Witch being hit by a Soultwist spell, and hating its own crimes. The Permanence Ward is intending more to keep the Soultwist spell active than it is to keep the Witch's power. It isn't a premeditated plot - if the A.I. is capable of reading the Witch's mind, the odds of it reading the Witch's mind at that moment would be quite low.

I just wasn't sure if the Witch was actually physically capable of ignoring a pact even with a change of heart.

I'm fairly sure the AI/God/Demonlord/Whatever can read the Witches mind at will. Remember the Witch has a mental bond with the Demon Familiar, which is an extension of the thing she made a pact with. If the Familiar can read the witches mind, then so can the AI.

[Nightmask]

IF I am not Mistaken, Most Pacts will not give you access to something that the empowering entity does not know either. Not that any empowering entity would be so foolhardy as to grant such abilities to a witch in the first place. Not only that but, wards and circle magic probably isn't something that most witches would want anyway espically when one has to continually and constantly gather ingredients just to make the magics work.

In Many ways the PB Style Pact Witch, is basically another type of Dark Priest. The main difference is that, unlike the Priest, the witch is essentially the Slave of the empowering entity. Giving up one's freedom for the power of a witch. isn't something to take lightly.

Nor is it wise to plot against your master as the OP is trying to do. The Thing to which a witch has made a pact with is incredibly powerful, and can read their mind at will.

They're people who made pacts with evil powers (at least I've yet to see them allow for witches making pacts with good aligned powers even though that should happen too) you can expect such greedy sorts would plot against their masters as a matter of course. There's at least one master vampire (which at least for masters it's no different than a witch's pact, person makes bargain with vampire intelligence for a standard set of regular major powers) in the books that's plotting some way of severing its pact without losing its power and speculating that maybe that's how they reproduce. So you can plot, but success is highly unlikely.

[Ravenwing]

IF I am not Mistaken, Most Pacts will not give you access to something that the empowering entity does not know either. Not that any empowering entity would be so foolhardy as to grant such abilities to a witch in the first place. Not only that but, wards and circle magic probably isn't something that most witches would want anyway espically when one has to continually and constantly gather ingredients just to make the magics work.

In Many ways the PB Style Pact Witch, is basically another type of Dark Priest. The main difference is that, unlike the Priest, the witch is essentially the Slave of the empowering entity. Giving up one's freedom for the power of a witch. isn't something to take lightly.

Nor is it wise to plot against your master as the OP is trying to do. The Thing to which a witch has made a pact with is incredibly powerful, and can read their mind at will.

They're people who made pacts with evil powers (at least I've yet to see them allow for witches making pacts with good aligned powers even though that should happen too) you can expect such greedy sorts would plot against their masters as a matter of course. There's at least one master vampire (which at least for masters it's no different than a witch's pact, person makes bargain with vampire intelligence for a standard set of regular major powers) in the books that's plotting some way of severing its pact without losing its power and speculating that maybe that's how they reproduce. So you can plot, but success is highly unlikely.

I agree there should be Good Aligned Witches who make pacts with Good Aligned AI/Gods/Spirits of Light(if thats possible).

However as I said in the post above, the Witch has a Demon Familiar which is mentally bonded to it, so that it knows what they think, see, feel, hear etc. This demon Familiar is an extension of the Creature forming the Pact. Thus the AI would know you plotted against it, and would punish you accordingly.

So yes you could plot, but you would have no chance of success.

[Nightmask]

IF I am not Mistaken, Most Pacts will not give you access to something that the empowering entity does not know either. Not that any empowering entity would be so foolhardy as to grant such abilities to a witch in the first place. Not only that but, wards and circle magic probably isn't something that most witches would want anyway espically when one has to continually and constantly gather ingredients just to make the magics work.

In Many ways the PB Style Pact Witch, is basically another type of Dark Priest. The main difference is that, unlike the Priest, the witch is essentially the Slave of the empowering entity. Giving up one's freedom for the power of a witch. isn't something to take lightly.

Nor is it wise to plot against your master as the OP is trying to do. The Thing to which a witch has made a pact with is incredibly powerful, and can read their mind at will.

They're people who made pacts with evil powers (at least I've yet to see them allow for witches making pacts with good aligned powers even though that should happen too) you can expect such greedy sorts would plot against their masters as a matter of course. There's at least one master vampire (which at least for masters it's no different than a witch's pact, person makes bargain with vampire intelligence for a standard set of regular major powers) in the books that's plotting some way of severing its pact without losing its power and speculating that maybe that's how they reproduce. So you can plot, but success is highly unlikely.

I agree there should be Good Aligned Witches who make pacts with Good Aligned AI/Gods/Spirits of Light(if thats possible).

However as I said in the post above, the Witch has a Demon Familiar which is mentally bonded to it, so that it knows what they think, see, feel, hear etc. This demon Familiar is an extension of the Creature forming the Pact. Thus the AI would know you plotted against it, and would punish you accordingly.

So yes you could plot, but you would have no chance of success.

That's a big stretch, an AI has an unknown number of witches and other bonded servants and a variety of things to keep track of. The AI is not going to know everything the witch is thinking and certainly not 24/7. The Familiar does because it's an individual, has only one mind it has to track, and is right there in person. The AI is a distant mind linked to the witch with a lot more to deal with than some piddly mortal it gave some power to.

[Ravenwing]

IF I am not Mistaken, Most Pacts will not give you access to something that the empowering entity does not know either. Not that any empowering entity would be so foolhardy as to grant such abilities to a witch in the first place. Not only that but, wards and circle magic probably isn't something that most witches would want anyway espically when one has to continually and constantly gather ingredients just to make the magics work.

In Many ways the PB Style Pact Witch, is basically another type of Dark Priest. The main difference is that, unlike the Priest, the witch is essentially the Slave of the empowering entity. Giving up one's freedom for the power of a witch. isn't something to take lightly.

Nor is it wise to plot against your master as the OP is trying to do. The Thing to which a witch has made a pact with is incredibly powerful, and can read their mind at will.

They're people who made pacts with evil powers (at least I've yet to see them allow for witches making pacts with good aligned powers even though that should happen too) you can expect such greedy sorts would plot against their masters as a matter of course. There's at least one master vampire (which at least for masters it's no different than a witch's pact, person makes bargain with vampire intelligence for a standard set of regular major powers) in the books that's plotting some way of severing its pact without losing its power and speculating that maybe that's how they reproduce. So you can plot, but success is highly unlikely.

I agree there should be Good Aligned Witches who make pacts with Good Aligned AI/Gods/Spirits of Light(if thats possible).

However as I said in the post above, the Witch has a Demon Familiar which is mentally bonded to it, so that it knows what they think, see, feel, hear etc. This demon Familiar is an extension of the Creature forming the Pact. Thus the AI would know you plotted against it, and would punish you accordingly.

So yes you could plot, but you would have no chance of success.

That's a big stretch, an AI has an unknown number of witches and other bonded servants and a variety of things to keep track of. The AI is not going to know everything the witch is thinking and certainly not 24/7. The Familiar does because it's an individual, has only one mind it has to track, and is right there in person. The AI is a distant mind linked to the witch with a lot more to deal with than some piddly mortal it gave some power to.

It would be a stretch for a mortal. But we're talking a creature with more power then the human mind can comprehend. Also PB's pretty good about stating that AI's and Gods are 'Fully aware' of anything that their extensions see, feel, hear, or know. As the Demon Familiar is an extension, and it knows, the God/AI knows. Look it up in Pantheons of the Megaverse, or Dragons and Gods.

[Nightmask]

That's a big stretch, an AI has an unknown number of witches and other bonded servants and a variety of things to keep track of. The AI is not going to know everything the witch is thinking and certainly not 24/7. The Familiar does because it's an individual, has only one mind it has to track, and is right there in person. The AI is a distant mind linked to the witch with a lot more to deal with than some piddly mortal it gave some power to.

It would be a stretch for a mortal. But we're talking a creature with more power then the human mind can comprehend. Also PB's pretty good about stating that AI's and Gods are 'Fully aware' of anything that their extensions see, feel, hear, or know. As the Demon Familiar is an extension, and it knows, the God/AI knows. Look it up in Pantheons of the Megaverse, or Dragons and Gods.

Even if that were the case that still doesn't mean that it would be so aware as to know anything and everything going on with a witch and be able to counter everything. Much like ARCHIE-3 while aware of everything in his complex isn't so aware it instantly realizes someone's broken in and sometimes is just going 'something feels wrong'.

[Ravenwing]

That's a big stretch, an AI has an unknown number of witches and other bonded servants and a variety of things to keep track of. The AI is not going to know everything the witch is thinking and certainly not 24/7. The Familiar does because it's an individual, has only one mind it has to track, and is right there in person. The AI is a distant mind linked to the witch with a lot more to deal with than some piddly mortal it gave some power to.

It would be a stretch for a mortal. But we're talking a creature with more power then the human mind can comprehend. Also PB's pretty good about stating that AI's and Gods are 'Fully aware' of anything that their extensions see, feel, hear, or know. As the Demon Familiar is an extension, and it knows, the God/AI knows. Look it up in Pantheons of the Megaverse, or Dragons and Gods.

Even if that were the case that still doesn't mean that it would be so aware as to know anything and everything going on with a witch and be able to counter everything. Much like ARCHIE-3 while aware of everything in his complex isn't so aware it instantly realizes someone's broken in and sometimes is just going 'something feels wrong'.

What degree is fully aware?

To me it means exactly that. Witch takes a pee, AI knows it. Witch thinks of breaking their vows, AI knows it and delivers massive amounts of pain, stripping them of all power until the Witch appeases the AI.

The same would apply to Archie-3.

This seems to be the way PB treats things as well.

[Nightmask]

That's a big stretch, an AI has an unknown number of witches and other bonded servants and a variety of things to keep track of. The AI is not going to know everything the witch is thinking and certainly not 24/7. The Familiar does because it's an individual, has only one mind it has to track, and is right there in person. The AI is a distant mind linked to the witch with a lot more to deal with than some piddly mortal it gave some power to.

It would be a stretch for a mortal. But we're talking a creature with more power then the human mind can comprehend. Also PB's pretty good about stating that AI's and Gods are 'Fully aware' of anything that their extensions see, feel, hear, or know. As the Demon Familiar is an extension, and it knows, the God/AI knows. Look it up in Pantheons of the Megaverse, or Dragons and Gods.

Even if that were the case that still doesn't mean that it would be so aware as to know anything and everything going on with a witch and be able to counter everything. Much like ARCHIE-3 while aware of everything in his complex isn't so aware it instantly realizes someone's broken in and sometimes is just going 'something feels wrong'.

What degree is fully aware?

To me it means exactly that. Witch takes a pee, AI knows it. Witch thinks of breaking their vows, AI knows it and delivers massive amounts of pain, stripping them of all power until the Witch appeases the AI.

The same would apply to Archie-3.

This seems to be the way PB treats things as well.

Not from what I've seen, otherwise you wouldn't see a Master Vampire plotting to free himself and retain his powers, and there's at least one witch that ended up in charge after its AI's main body was destroyed and it took refuge in him. So apparently Palladium doesn't consider AI to be all-knowing ultimate masters of all those bonded with them resulting in instant punishment for even the slightest thought against them.

[cornholioprime]

I agree there should be Good Aligned Witches who make pacts with Good Aligned AI/Gods/Spirits of Light(if thats possible).

There is at least one: A good Witch in the service of Thoth himself (a good Shifter from Tolkeen).

It's detailed in the start of one of the Minion War Books (quite probably the Dimension Book: Hades one).

To me it means exactly that. Witch takes a pee, AI knows it. Witch thinks of breaking their vows, AI knows it and delivers massive amounts of pain, stripping them of all power until the Witch appeases the AI.

The exact nature of the Witch/Granting Intelligence connection has not to the best of my knowledge been defined 100% precisely, but there are canon instances of Witches managing to carry out their own schemes, counter-productive and diametrically opposed to the wishes of their masters, whose actions went unnoticed.

One canon example that comes to mind is the example of the Sowki in Pantheons of the Megaverse, who not only managed to steal PPE from his master, but eventually managed to sever the link while retaining the full powers that he had been granted (I believe that this creature serves alongside the false Tiamat in a false pantheon headed by a female adult dragon).

However as I said in the post above, the Witch has a Demon Familiar which is mentally bonded to it, so that it knows what they think, see, feel, hear etc. This demon Familiar is an extension of the Creature forming the Pact. Thus the AI would know you plotted against it, and would punish you accordingly.

There's no evidence with any of the familiars that I can think of, that gives them as much of a solid connection to the Witch, as the Familiar (usually an Essence Fragment) has to the parent Intelligence (The Fragment and the Intelligence actually being one and the same creature).

SOMETIMES, regular Familiars are closely, mentally linked to their (mortal) masters, but I don't recall this being the case in most (if any) instances of the Familiar that the Intelligence assigns to a Witch.

[FreelancerMar]

A Shifter is not a witch. An Empowering entity cannot Completely Cut/gut a shifter off from the shifters own powers. A Shifter does not need an Empowering Entity to function at full capcity.

Using PB's Definition of the Witch, Most Good folk wouldn't want to be one any way and will have to make do with the abilities of a devout Priest(SS). Also most Good entities generally wouldn't grant that sort of power anyway. There is just way too much possability for the abuse of that power. Evil entities don't care about that.

[cornholioprime]

A Shifter is not a witch. An Empowering entity cannot Completely Cut/gut a shifter off from the shifters own powers. A Shifter does not need an Empowering Entity to function at full capcity.

Using PB's Definition of the Witch, Most Good folk wouldn't want to be one any way and will have to make do with the abilities of a devout Priest(SS). Also most Good entities generally wouldn't grant that sort of power anyway. There is just way too much possability for the abuse of that power. Evil entities don't care about that.

You miss the point.

First off, there's no hard and fast rule that prevents other OCCs from becoming a Witch.

Second, there are CANON instances of Shifters becoming Witches -not just the aforementioned one in the Hades/Dyval Books but at least one other in the Rifts: Mercenaries Book as well (and still others that I cannot think of off the top of my head).

Third, as the Thoth-witch example shows -not to mention other types of Witches such as the Gypsy Witch, you CAN be of a good alignment and still be a Witch.

Finally, it is irrelevant whether or not the Intelligence can shut off the flow of powers for the characters' other OCCs, it just matters that the Intelligence can shut off the powers related to the Pact that the Witch made in the first place (think about it for a second: why wouldn't someone desperate enough to do so become a Witch if they felt that their original OCC didn't grant them enough power or grant it fast enough?).

EDIT: Oops, duplicate text. Removed it.