CS Rifts Magic Scientists

[Crucible]

What good are they really?

I see a lot of threads about Magic being the whup creation, but no one says anything about these bad boys. Now, the CS is a looming creep factory in my games, so I'd like to know if there is any anti-magic use for this OCC, and are they flat useless?

[drewkitty ~..~]

*scratches head*
Which OCC are you talking about....? You didn't state the name of the OCC you are talking about.

Mages, by nature are scientists, seeing how magic works and developing new spells for themselves to have and use.

Then the are TW's which are more tinkerers then scientists.

Are you talking about the CS's investigators of magic?

[Crucible]

RCSG Scientist...my bad

[MikelAmroni]

What good are they really?

I see a lot of threads about Magic being the whup creation, but no one says anything about these bad boys. Now, the CS is a looming creep factory in my games, so I'd like to know if there is any anti-magic use for this OCC, and are they flat useless?

It depends on how you use them. As a GM, they are VERY usefu, but not for their specific powers. A CS Soldier pulling out a gun that shoots Carpets of Adhesion because a RCSG Scientist told him how to use the gun is a SCARY thing (the factthat the particular gun in question costs 800 trillon credits and is a one of a kind with no recharge is completely beside the point). Talk about major misdirection and fear in your players. Even better if said soldier has an explosives launching gun that sticks to you via carpet of adhesion (too bad it only works if you aim for three attacks or more). Or how about a Spider Skull Walker that is immune to energy, or has a very limited invisibility ability (as long as they don't get hit by a kinetic attack, or if someone farts in the general area its likely to make the invisibility fail). A RCSG can do all of these things in the hands of an enterprising GM.

In the hands of a player, you're only slightly better than a Rogue Scientist, and have the same play options, except that you can also ley line drift, and sense ley lines. Personally I would give them devices that act like the MOM implants in Mindwerks, but are powered by the PPE of the RCSG, but are issued on an as needed basis, and only as the mission comander sees fit. That way you could have magic cancelling magitech, or a psi-sword.

[G]

For the GM they make good supporting characters. They can be in command in the background, giving troops orders or advice in how to combat mages and monsters. If any magic abilities are used, they will trigger a dogboys senses and be killed (thats life in the CS). A military needs a lot of supporting personelle and add in a few other support skills like cooking, medical, salvage, vehicle/armor repair and you have exactly what every military needs.

This char is not as much fun or good as your other choices if you are playing in a CS game or a CS char.

[Nightmask]

Always seemed to me the OCC is in direct violation of the 'magic and powers is evil' mindset of the Coalition, given they have clearly developed powers and should be in the mindset shown of the Coalition immediately destroyed as 'contaminated'. The Coalition can't even handle psionic powers yet they have no problems at all with these characters who've studied magic to the point that they're showing magical powers? Just doesn't make sense.

[Dr Megaverse]

Always seemed to me the OCC is in direct violation of the 'magic and powers is evil' mindset of the Coalition, given they have clearly developed powers and should be in the mindset shown of the Coalition immediately destroyed as 'contaminated'. The Coalition can't even handle psionic powers yet they have no problems at all with these characters who've studied magic to the point that they're showing magical powers? Just doesn't make sense.

You know, I've always been willing to lend the RCSG guys some slack in my games because while the CS leadership realizes magic is dangerous and uses it as one of their biggest propaganda tools, they also realize they need an effective counter for it. Sort of a necessary evil. However the PCs are usually very low rank, working on the lower levels of the cities or outside them all together. While the CS wants these guys around, they don't want them hanging around TOO close.

However, I have to agree with you Nightmask. The whole O.C.C. kind of makes me scratch my head and go "Huh?" every now and then...

[Nightmask]

Always seemed to me the OCC is in direct violation of the 'magic and powers is evil' mindset of the Coalition, given they have clearly developed powers and should be in the mindset shown of the Coalition immediately destroyed as 'contaminated'. The Coalition can't even handle psionic powers yet they have no problems at all with these characters who've studied magic to the point that they're showing magical powers? Just doesn't make sense.

You know, I've always been willing to lend the RCSG guys some slack in my games because while the CS leadership realizes magic is dangerous and uses it as one of their biggest propaganda tools, they also realize they need an effective counter for it. Sort of a necessary evil. However the PCs are usually very low rank, working on the lower levels of the cities or outside them all together. While the CS wants these guys around, they don't want them hanging around TOO close.

However, I have to agree with you Nightmask. The whole O.C.C. kind of makes me scratch my head and go "Huh?" every now and then...

Seemed like the writer was going a bit too much for 'oooh this is neat' and kind of skipped the 'but this isn't plausible' part. Once anyone in the PCC (hey they show ley line walker powers, they're a PCC not an OCC at that point) actually displays that they've gone magic you'd think they'd be promptly eliminated at some point. While I can understand the appeal of neat things sometimes you just have to say no to them because they just don't fit (like oh Spider-man making a deal with a demon to sell out his wife and unborn child so his aunt could get a few more years). I just can't see how a GM would let the character exist with the powers other than as a 'well when they start displaying these powers they go renegade and only those who don't develop these powers remain' kind of things.

[Nightmask]

Always seemed to me the OCC is in direct violation of the 'magic and powers is evil' mindset of the Coalition, given they have clearly developed powers and should be in the mindset shown of the Coalition immediately destroyed as 'contaminated'. The Coalition can't even handle psionic powers yet they have no problems at all with these characters who've studied magic to the point that they're showing magical powers? Just doesn't make sense.

Not entirely, no.

First, the ley line powers are pretty innocuous and probably would get filed under "psionic" abilities rather than "magic" if for no other reason than to make the top brass feel better about being hypocrites. It's not like they are shooting TW weapons (though I can imagine these as very limited mission-specific gear) or tossing around fireballs on anything resembling a regular basis.

Also, the CS is smart enough to follow the chain of logic that monsters come from rifts, rifts come from ley line nexuses and ley line nexuses are formed from ley lines. The more they know about they lines, the more they learn about rifts (and more importantly, how to close them).

Finally, you have to remember that the CS has its own history with experimenting with magic (before the Chi-Town Assault) and exploring its military applications. They even have magic weapons and equipment (even rumored to have a couple of rune weapons) in the now-closed to the public Chi-Town Library and Vault.

The CS certainly uses the "magic is evil" spin as propaganda, but the top brass also certainly know better. However, they do realize that it is a dangerous force that they need to understand (to develop countermeasures against their enemies) and that they will stay as far away from as possible to save public face (no chance of the CS training any mages anytime soon, though they certainly have the knowledge base to do so).

There's a difference between working to understand it enough to battle it and actually embracing it. The CS at all levels is taught to have the worst form of fanatical hatred and rejection of magic and anyone who might show sympathy for these 'monsters' gets 'reeducated' if they're lucky or killed if they aren't. Yet here you have an OCC that has powers known to be possessed by Ley Line Walkers, i.e. the enemy and it's a CS OCC. It violates all the rules of the CS because even if your officer looked the other way HIS officer wouldn't. They barely tolerate deep cover agents dealing with the enemy and are always ready to eliminate them if they start looking sympathetic to the enemy making it unfathomable that they'd actually tolerate a CS OCC with magical abilities no matter how minor.

[Nightmask]

I did read over your post, but given the CS is written as the 'Evil Empire' and likes to spend time finding creative ways to torture and kill non-humans and magic users you simply aren't going to have anyone last for very long in the military chain of command for showing tolerance of magic in any form no matter how feeble and Ley Line Walking abilities are definitely magic. Larson was shown barely getting by and only because he was so impressive in fighting the enemy but even he couldn't last for long before being targeted. So no everything written about the CS totally rejects the idea of any CS OCC being allowed to have or develop magical abilities no matter how trivial. Magic is the enemy and anyone showing that they've been touched by magic is suspect.

[Nightmask]

I did read over your post, but given the CS is written as the 'Evil Empire' and likes to spend time finding creative ways to torture and kill non-humans and magic users you simply aren't going to have anyone last for very long in the military chain of command for showing tolerance of magic in any form no matter how feeble and Ley Line Walking abilities are definitely magic.

When I say "See Aura", "See the Invisible" or "Sense Evil" do you think of magic or psionics? There is precedent for overlap and the CS High Command knows this. Also, given the fact that much of psionics is still a mystery, even though they are reliably able to produce certain kinds of psychics provides perfect cover. The only ones who would know the difference are Dog-Boys and they have a tendency to keep their mouth shut when ordered to. It is a plausible cover.

Except we're talking 'Ley Line floating' and 'Ley Line Healing' which high command knows to be the abilities of Magic Users and not psionics. Seriously when you are at a horse farm and hear hoofbeats you don't think zebra you think horse. When you see someone displaying abilities associated with magic users you don't think 'well maybe it's really psionic instead', common sense in such a situation is to think 'He's become one of those evil magic users! He can float and heal himself just like them!'. You don't rise through the ranks in a military taught and fervently believing that all magic is evil by doing something as illogical as dismiss someone displaying obvious magical abilities because they MIGHT be psionic. Expecially given how little the CS cares for psionics anyway.

Larson was shown barely getting by and only because he was so impressive in fighting the enemy but even he couldn't last for long before being targeted. So no everything written about the CS totally rejects the idea of any CS OCC being allowed to have or develop magical abilities no matter how trivial. Magic is the enemy and anyone showing that they've been touched by magic is suspect.

Wrong. The whole "d-bees and magic are evil" schtick is propaganda. In the description of Karl Prosek himself it states that he doesn't necessarily believe it, but recognizes it as an invaluable tool for holding power and embraces it as such. It would not be beyond them to develop a program that uses innocuous magic powers, cover it as psi, and justify it as an invaluable tool to use against their enemies.

Really doesn't matter if Karl doesn't necessarily believe the 'magic and d-bees are evil' stance he's pushed, it's what the bulk of CS citizens both military and non believe. You don't repeatedly drum it into people's minds that something is evil and have them not believe it evil in all ways. So wrong the 'it isn't real because it's propaganda' just doesn't succeed. The entire point of propaganda is to indoctrinate people into a particular way of thinking, and those who are preaching the party line from the top don't have to believe it at all it could all be a scam but all those worshipers down below certainly don't think so they believe it to the depths of their souls. Given the CS expelled all magic users even those most fervently behind the CS (resulting in the creation of the Vanguard) they have always had a no-tolerance policy which is why the magic-possessing CS scientist class violates everything about the CS stance and what's depicted in every book about them.

Now if you want to have them in a game that's fine but they violate everything about the CS as it's been written, where they've brainwashed and killed people for even suggesting that magic users or d-bees might be okay folk and wouldn't go embracing anyone displaying magical abilities no matter how minor because such fear and hate does not accept the concept of 'minor' it only accepts 'none' and if you don't fit 'none' then you fit 'dead'.

[dragonfett]

I have a question that I think is really valid. How in the world does the CS High Command know just what powers a Ley Line Walker has or doesn't have? Secondly, I have always figured that those abilities are something that RCSG Scientists hide from the higher ups. And thirdly, the knowledge that they (as a whole) have collected about ley lines and nexuses and rifts outweigh what small amount abilities that have learned how to use on a ley line (in my games at least).

[Nightmask]

I have a question that I think is really valid. How in the world does the CS High Command know just what powers a Ley Line Walker has or doesn't have? Secondly, I have always figured that those abilities are something that RCSG Scientists hide from the higher ups. And thirdly, the knowledge that they (as a whole) have collected about ley lines and nexuses and rifts outweigh what small amount abilities that have learned how to use on a ley line (in my games at least).

Even the most basic of Military Intelligence is to learn the capabilities of your enemy, particularly their most common representatives. They wouldn't have all those gadgets for making mages miserable as shown in various CS-related supplements if they didn't have a working knowledge of what they can do. They aren't above torture and their spies can easily acquire information from a Ley Line Walker who is tricked into trusting them.

The CS is pretty paranoid, and the RCSG aren't getting around without someone with them. They are after all studying dangerous things like Rifts naturally they'd have escorts and bodyguards. Hiding such abilities when they all have them as an OCC feature would be nearly impossible. For example RCSG Scientist gets badly injured, naturally he wants to fix that so he sneaks off to heal himself at the nearby Ley Line. Think no one's going to notice that Bob's looking pretty spry for a guy who was bruised and covered in cuts just hours or days ago? Think no one would ever catch one of them ley-line flying to get at something? Doesn't seem very plausible does it?

I concede in your game that the CS might be more open-minded, but that's not how they're presented in any of the books. Any consorting with the 'dark powers' is treason, especially when you embrace them enough to gain powers. Remember fanatics have ZERO sense of scale, being able to Ley Line Heal is as horribly contaminated as being able to summon up an elemental or call lightning from the heavens. Look at the many inquisitions over the centuries for a real world example. They don't have a concept of 'acceptable contamination' there is only being pure and being horribly corrupt and tainted, and that's the world view the CS presses on its citizens. While an individual here or there might be able to be not so taken in by that you aren't going to have an entire OCC like the RCSG Scientist evolving in a place like that, they'd kill or exile any who developed those 'tainted' abilities.

[glitterboy2098]

the way i see it:
the RSCG is approaching things as "magic is just a term used to describe a poorly understood science" and "'we should be able to make technology that can manipulate PPE the way we make tech that manipulated heat/electricity/light."

the CS troops think the RSCG is a bunch of foolhardy eggheads playing with forces man was never meant to know.

The CS high command loves the insight the RSCG gives them, but is wary of the fact that the RSCG seems to be getting too close to the subject of their research..

earth magic users think the RSCG group is heading down a blind alley and are ignorant idiots with no understanding of the mystical art that is magic.

and megaversal organizations and entities are scared stiff, knowing that the RCSG is playing with dangerous cosmic forces and could easily stumble onto the key to building true 'magic' technology...

[Nightmask]

I did read over your post, but given the CS is written as the 'Evil Empire' and likes to spend time finding creative ways to torture and kill non-humans and magic users you simply aren't going to have anyone last for very long in the military chain of command for showing tolerance of magic in any form no matter how feeble and Ley Line Walking abilities are definitely magic.

When I say "See Aura", "See the Invisible" or "Sense Evil" do you think of magic or psionics? There is precedent for overlap and the CS High Command knows this. Also, given the fact that much of psionics is still a mystery, even though they are reliably able to produce certain kinds of psychics provides perfect cover. The only ones who would know the difference are Dog-Boys and they have a tendency to keep their mouth shut when ordered to. It is a plausible cover.

Except we're talking 'Ley Line floating' and 'Ley Line Healing' which high command knows to be the abilities of Magic Users and not psionics. Seriously when you are at a horse farm and hear hoofbeats you don't think zebra you think horse. When you see someone displaying abilities associated with magic users you don't think 'well maybe it's really psionic instead', common sense in such a situation is to think 'He's become one of those evil magic users! He can float and heal himself just like them!'. You don't rise through the ranks in a military taught and fervently believing that all magic is evil by doing something as illogical as dismiss someone displaying obvious magical abilities because they MIGHT be psionic. Expecially given how little the CS cares for psionics anyway.

Larson was shown barely getting by and only because he was so impressive in fighting the enemy but even he couldn't last for long before being targeted. So no everything written about the CS totally rejects the idea of any CS OCC being allowed to have or develop magical abilities no matter how trivial. Magic is the enemy and anyone showing that they've been touched by magic is suspect.

Wrong. The whole "d-bees and magic are evil" schtick is propaganda. In the description of Karl Prosek himself it states that he doesn't necessarily believe it, but recognizes it as an invaluable tool for holding power and embraces it as such. It would not be beyond them to develop a program that uses innocuous magic powers, cover it as psi, and justify it as an invaluable tool to use against their enemies.

Really doesn't matter if Karl doesn't necessarily believe the 'magic and d-bees are evil' stance he's pushed, it's what the bulk of CS citizens both military and non believe. You don't repeatedly drum it into people's minds that something is evil and have them not believe it evil in all ways. So wrong the 'it isn't real because it's propaganda' just doesn't succeed. The entire point of propaganda is to indoctrinate people into a particular way of thinking, and those who are preaching the party line from the top don't have to believe it at all it could all be a scam but all those worshipers down below certainly don't think so they believe it to the depths of their souls. Given the CS expelled all magic users even those most fervently behind the CS (resulting in the creation of the Vanguard) they have always had a no-tolerance policy which is why the magic-possessing CS scientist class violates everything about the CS stance and what's depicted in every book about them.

Now if you want to have them in a game that's fine but they violate everything about the CS as it's been written, where they've brainwashed and killed people for even suggesting that magic users or d-bees might be okay folk and wouldn't go embracing anyone displaying magical abilities no matter how minor because such fear and hate does not accept the concept of 'minor' it only accepts 'none' and if you don't fit 'none' then you fit 'dead'.

I'm done debating this with you.

You are ignoring key bits of my arguments, seemingly intentionally, so you can dismiss my arguments as a whole.

I'm not the one ignoring pieces in order to handwave away someone's points, I agree though it's pointless continuing this part of things as you aren't responding to my points which are grounded in RL parallels.

[Nightmask]

the way i see it:
the RSCG is approaching things as "magic is just a term used to describe a poorly understood science" and "'we should be able to make technology that can manipulate PPE the way we make tech that manipulated heat/electricity/light."

the CS troops think the RSCG is a bunch of foolhardy eggheads playing with forces man was never meant to know.

The CS high command loves the insight the RSCG gives them, but is wary of the fact that the RSCG seems to be getting too close to the subject of their research..

earth magic users think the RSCG group is heading down a blind alley and are ignorant idiots with no understanding of the mystical art that is magic.

and megaversal organizations and entities are scared stiff, knowing that the RCSG is playing with dangerous cosmic forces and could easily stumble onto the key to building true 'magic' technology...

Well remember the CS used to have a magic users wing and did tend to hold the 'magic is just a tool and how we use it determines if it's good or evil' position towards magic. Then they got that brutal attack by evil magic users and decided for whatever reason to expel and reject ALL magic no matter how benign which ended up bringing about the creation of the Vanguard.

I doubt anyone outside the CS really has a clue the RCSG even exist, they aren't likely to be a really obvious presence after all, and they certainly wouldn't be scaring megaversal organizations or entities, most just dismiss humans as irrelevant and given the kinds of actual threats around and people with magictech options if they did hear of the RCSG they'd probably see them more as wannabees rather than any real threat.

[MikelAmroni]

At no point am I ignoring the parts I snip, I am just not going to add so much length to the thread for no reason. Seriously, there is no reason to quote an entire message to make one reply line (just grab the first and last lines and call it good with a snip)

<snip>The Coalition can't even handle psionic powers yet they have no problems at all with these characters who've studied magic to the point that they're showing magical powers? Just doesn't make sense.

I'll respond to this first: High Command can handle psionics just fine. And I don't mean Psi-Bat (which is relatively new), I mean Psi-stalkers and mutant dogs. They prefer their psychics to be sensitives, but also recognize the need to 'fight fire with fire.' It will take some time for them to come close to accepting the scientists of the RCSG, and I am certain the entire thing is viewed with some degree of a 'shoot them if they begin affecting our minds' mentality. But they will have no problem accepting the WORK of the RCSG. Most western countries do heavy experimentations with deadly bio-weapons - mostly to find ways to fight them. But at some point those same scientists have to MAKE bio-weapons to fight. Same concept. You can bet the guys in charge of those labs are watching those scientists like hawks, and at the first sign of them doing something improper, they take actions that will seem extreme, but are seen as necessary. Granted that is the stuff movies are made of, but the base concept remains the same. The RCSG are learning about manipulating psychic energy to protect the CS. They must learn how the energy works so they can disrupt its flow. But unlike the magic user who views it all as a matter of faith and belief, the scientist constantly asks why. He figures out how to levitate. Then he starts questioning how this can be done, makes theories, tests them, makes new theories, etc. At no point does the average RCSG lose this analytical outlook (exceptions exist in ALL populations, and this is no different).

Not entirely, no.
First, the ley line powers are pretty innocuous and probably would get filed under "psionic" abilities rather than "magic" if for no other reason than to make the top brass feel better about being hypocrites. It's not like they are shooting TW weapons (though I can imagine these as very limited mission-specific gear) or tossing around fireballs on anything resembling a regular basis.

Yes and no. I seriously doubt that high command gives it much thought. If it is brought to their attention, they simply make a note in the scientists file to eliminate them if they prove troublesome. You can bet the security forces in those places have reserved kill orders for every scientist and researcher in the place if it comes down to it.

<snip>(no chance of the CS training any mages anytime soon, though they certainly have the knowledge base to do so).

Unless you count the Vanguard, of course. I don't, but still. If any form of magic ever becomes common, it will be that of the mystic.

They barely tolerate deep cover agents dealing with the enemy and are always ready to eliminate them if they start looking sympathetic to the enemy making it unfathomable that they'd actually tolerate a CS OCC with magical abilities no matter how minor.

Actually there is quite a bit of tolerance for it. None of it is official, but it's there. As for the RCSG, they are kept under close guard at all times. If they slip the noose its no big trouble to send a S&D squad after them. They are not independant operators, and one on the run would truly be on the run. They would never make any posters, but every undercover op out there would be gunning to kill them and kill them quietly. Not impossible to have a character like this (it's done all over the place for a variety of reasons in a variety of ways), but it does become one where the GM is constantly sending attackers after you if you go to the wrong place (and don't they always send you there anyway?).

<snip>Magic is the enemy and anyone showing that they've been touched by magic is suspect.

Well that is certainly the propoganda line. Life in ultra black research is rarely so simple. RCSG aren't doing normal research, and few if any of their findings will ever be published in journals read outside of their own circles, or those of High Command. Propoganda's place in ultra black level research is to provide a cover for liquedating assets who have outlived their usefulness. "Dangerous fools, they delved into magic."

When I say "See Aura", "See the Invisible" or "Sense Evil" do you think of magic or psionics? There is precedent for overlap <snip> It is a plausible cover.

Eh, ish. To be honest any plausible covers go out the window when you're doing the level of research they are. The exception, of course, is public covers. They are all likely listed as major psychics (or better) by PRP and have barcodes.

Wrong. <snip>

Despite the fact he had some incorrect assumptions, you'll find folks react badly when told they are wrong like this. Present facts, present conjecture based on facts. Saying "Wrong." is counter-productive. Golden rule and all that. This isn't a dig, just some friendly advice. Please take it as such.

How in the world does the CS High Command know just what powers a Ley Line Walker has or doesn't have?

Observation, interrogation, direct experimentation (using interrogative techniques), direct contact. You'd probably be very surprised at how much the CS actually knows, especially post-Tolkeen. Now in this case I mean the Espionage Branches, PRP, Psi-Bat, and High Command (NOT the line troops).

Secondly, I have always figured that those abilities are something that RCSG Scientists hide from the higher ups. And thirdly, the knowledge that they (as a whole) have collected about ley lines and nexuses and rifts outweigh what small amount abilities that have learned how to use on a ley line (in my games at least).

I am certain its kept out of their reports, but I doubt its not an unknown ability by any stretch of the imagination. At some point it would have been asked how they built their PPE sensing equipment and how they managed to find the right frequencies.

I concede in your game that the CS might be more open-minded, but that's not how they're presented in any of the books.<snip>

Open minded is the wrong term. Goal Oriented and willing to let the ends justify the means are the right terms. The CS has ALWAYS been presented as ends justify the means and are definitely goal-oriented. If anything is potentially embarrasing, you make it disappear. And remember, in all cases, the scientists themselves are expendable assets (whether they know it or not).

I am going to suggest Deadboy's article in Rifter 37 as expanded reading for both of you Nightmask and Rhomphaia. It expands on the RCSG, and offers one explanation (one I personally use) for how the CS manages to keep the wolves at bay. It also shows the extreme example Nightmask brings up, while concentrating on the average like I have done here.

[dark brandon]

Always seemed to me the OCC is in direct violation of the 'magic and powers is evil' mindset of the Coalition, given they have clearly developed powers and should be in the mindset shown of the Coalition immediately destroyed as 'contaminated'. The Coalition can't even handle psionic powers yet they have no problems at all with these characters who've studied magic to the point that they're showing magical powers? Just doesn't make sense.

it's called magic until it's figured out how it works, then it's called science and CS can utilize it. PPE is a source of energy, so in studing it, it would only be a matter of time before they can utilize it as a source of energy as there is no reason to think it can't be otherwise.

You'll never see CS casting spells, but you may see fortress cities powered by PPE, as well as defenses and who knows what else form there.

[Killer Cyborg]

Always seemed to me the OCC is in direct violation of the 'magic and powers is evil' mindset of the Coalition, given they have clearly developed powers and should be in the mindset shown of the Coalition immediately destroyed as 'contaminated'. The Coalition can't even handle psionic powers yet they have no problems at all with these characters who've studied magic to the point that they're showing magical powers? Just doesn't make sense.

it's called magic until it's figured out how it works, then it's called science and CS can utilize it. PPE is a source of energy, so in studing it, it would only be a matter of time before they can utilize it as a source of energy as there is no reason to think it can't be otherwise.

You'll never see CS casting spells, but you may see fortress cities powered by PPE, as well as defenses and who knows what else form there.

I think that the CS' hatred of magic comes from two areas:
1. Fear and paranoia about magic due to its association with demons and other dark forces.
2. The CS can't use it. The people in charge aren't mages, and mages are so powerful in comparison that they can't be trusted.

If the CS ever unraveled the secrets of magic to the point where the leaders and citizenry could all learn to use it, they probably eventually would adopt it for general use.

[dark brandon]

I think that the CS' hatred of magic comes from two areas:
1. Fear and paranoia about magic due to its association with demons and other dark forces.
2. The CS can't use it. The people in charge aren't mages, and mages are so powerful in comparison that they can't be trusted.

If the CS ever unraveled the secrets of magic to the point where the leaders and citizenry could all learn to use it, they probably eventually would adopt it for general use.

I think it really depends on what kevin thinks magic is, but in essence, I agree.

[Nightmask]

Know thine enemy, i always say. An RCSG scientist should be able to predict and counter the average magic using opponent, he will know what spells the enemy is using, be able to determine what type of magic user he is facing and what tactics can be used to combat them.
They are VERY usefull if you play them correctly: analytical, calculating, knowledgable of the enemy and his limitations.

There's a difference between knowing your enemy and becoming him though, and outside of the few who are smart enough to recognize it as a propaganda tool nearly everyone in the CS from top to bottom fervently believes magic in all forms is inherently evil and anyone displaying magical talents therefor to be corrupt.

[Kalidor]

I did read over your post, but given the CS is written as the 'Evil Empire' and likes to spend time finding creative ways to torture and kill non-humans and magic users you simply aren't going to have anyone last for very long in the military chain of command for showing tolerance of magic in any form no matter how feeble and Ley Line Walking abilities are definitely magic. Larson was shown barely getting by and only because he was so impressive in fighting the enemy but even he couldn't last for long before being targeted. So no everything written about the CS totally rejects the idea of any CS OCC being allowed to have or develop magical abilities no matter how trivial. Magic is the enemy and anyone showing that they've been touched by magic is suspect.

What a horribly corrupted view you have over the Coalition. You make it sound as though they are nothing but murdering sociopaths. The Coalition is the benevolent savior of humankind. You would do well to remember that lest *you* end up on one of the fabled death lists you purport exists.

[Svartalf]

Yeah, right, and Hitler was the Second Coming that nobody recognized.

[Kalidor]

You've been in the tainted wilds too long to say such things.

[MikelAmroni]

I think that the CS' hatred of magic comes from two areas:
1. Fear and paranoia about magic due to its association with demons and other dark forces.
2. The CS can't use it. The people in charge aren't mages, and mages are so powerful in comparison that they can't be trusted.
If the CS ever unraveled the secrets of magic to the point where the leaders and citizenry could all learn to use it, they probably eventually would adopt it for general use.

I don't know about general use, but I could definitely see them using it for major public works like power and water (why worry about wells when we can create dimensional holes to water, allowing us to bring water whereever we need it. Just make sure to run it through the magic nullifiers, water filters and sterilizer first. Don't need any elemental beasts slipping through). I could also see them using it to suppliment protective forces. After all city defenders can use batteries which recharge from any wall plug. In a seige situation you just run a cord to them. Save the nuke packs for long range patrols and attack formations. At no point are they using magic, but rather they are using earth-energy to power their cities and keep the protective ward-rings from letting in magic users and their scum.

[Nightmask]

I think that the CS' hatred of magic comes from two areas:
1. Fear and paranoia about magic due to its association with demons and other dark forces.
2. The CS can't use it. The people in charge aren't mages, and mages are so powerful in comparison that they can't be trusted.
If the CS ever unraveled the secrets of magic to the point where the leaders and citizenry could all learn to use it, they probably eventually would adopt it for general use.

I don't know about general use, but I could definitely see them using it for major public works like power and water (why worry about wells when we can create dimensional holes to water, allowing us to bring water whereever we need it. Just make sure to run it through the magic nullifiers, water filters and sterilizer first. Don't need any elemental beasts slipping through). I could also see them using it to suppliment protective forces. After all city defenders can use batteries which recharge from any wall plug. In a seige situation you just run a cord to them. Save the nuke packs for long range patrols and attack formations. At no point are they using magic, but rather they are using earth-energy to power their cities and keep the protective ward-rings from letting in magic users and their scum.

There are already several empires depicted as freely embracing magic or magic and technology, like Tolkeen. That's not the CS. Sure it'd be sensible and reasonable to study and make use of magic given the magical threats around, but that's not the CS. It's presented as the evil empire (its leader admires Hitler and not only models much of his designs for the empire around Hitler's model, fixing what he felt needed fixing in Hitler's plan) for a reason. It rejects magic in all its forms because of its empire's policies, with magic users and D-bees being the CS's jews to 'Final Solution'. Fanatics aren't rational, or reasonable, and everyone is kept as dumb as possible short of the elite and even they while educated are indoctrinated from birth with a prejudice against magic.

[boxee]

Sorry I do not have the book that class is in. It sounds like a para-normal scientist type yes?
Ok, if so have you looked in chaos earth, the witch hunter might be something similar?
You might also think maybe there are exceptions, Lyboc had alot of slack as long as he did what his commander wanted.
Also the commander could say "I was not aware, but will look into the matter, no more questions, I have a meeting with with General Underhill and cannot keep him waiting.". If the situation went bad it could be "a subverted cell within our own government, was uncovered and detonated a small but deadly explosive, there were no survivors.....".

[Slight001]

I think that the CS' hatred of magic comes from two areas:
1. Fear and paranoia about magic due to its association with demons and other dark forces.
2. The CS can't use it. The people in charge aren't mages, and mages are so powerful in comparison that they can't be trusted.

If the CS ever unraveled the secrets of magic to the point where the leaders and citizenry could all learn to use it, they probably eventually would adopt it for general use.

From what I've read of the CS and their hatred of magic it comes from the inability to strip a mage of his powers without having to mutilating(cybernetics/bionics) him. At least that seemed to be the starting point of it... the irony is that now they have embraced psionic's to help counter the threat of magic.

[MikelAmroni]

Sorry I do not have the book that class is in. It sounds like a para-normal scientist type yes?
Ok, if so have you looked in chaos earth, the witch hunter might be something similar?
You might also think maybe there are exceptions, Lyboc had alot of slack as long as he did what his commander wanted.
Also the commander could say "I was not aware, but will look into the matter, no more questions, I have a meeting with with General Underhill and cannot keep him waiting.". If the situation went bad it could be "a subverted cell within our own government, was uncovered and detonated a small but deadly explosive, there were no survivors.....".

Its in Coaltion War Campaign. And yeah, that was the thrust of my assertion, if it went truly bad, there is little the CS PR Spin machine can't make into a winner, especially with enough "foolish scientists who overstepped the bounds of reason in a misguided attempt to help the nation. But unfortuneately, even these lauded goals are not enough to erase the dangers of magic. This is exactly why you should always report those who use magic in any form." And then as the PR department spins this, High Command sets up another version of the same thing with the same goals, just in a new place with new people in charge. While the project leads are all dead, the base researchers who are the grunts in the situation, are still intact.

[Mack]

I think that the CS' hatred of magic comes from two areas:
1. Fear and paranoia about magic due to its association with demons and other dark forces.
2. The CS can't use it. The people in charge aren't mages, and mages are so powerful in comparison that they can't be trusted.

If the CS ever unraveled the secrets of magic to the point where the leaders and citizenry could all learn to use it, they probably eventually would adopt it for general use.

From what I've read of the CS and their hatred of magic it comes from the inability to strip a mage of his powers without having to mutilating(cybernetics/bionics) him. At least that seemed to be the starting point of it... the irony is that now they have embraced psionic's to help counter the threat of magic.

I wouldn't use the word "embrace." More like, "grudgingly admitted."

[Dead Boy]

How in the world does the CS High Command know just what powers a Ley Line Walker has or doesn't have?

"...these troops are charged with the "containment" of alien forces and beings that emerge from these dimensional gateways. "Containment" typically means the capture, study and/or extermination of the things that emerge." (CWC 82) That is what the RCSG does to anything related to rifts and ley lines, really. So what makes you think they'd stop at demons and d-bees? The key words to take away from that passage are capture, study, and exterminate. So how do they know what powers a Ley Line Walker has? Phase 1) Capture; neutralized his known abilities and render him unconscious, first via neural mace, then via I.V. drip. Phase 2) Study; tag the "specimen" with implants that allow them to track him and collect bio-logical, radiological, and other data; additional observations can be conducted by high-flying recon, like the Death Wing in recon configuration. Phase 3) Extermination; once the subject has been observed long enough, in the wild, he is humanely put down via a dozen plasma mini-missile while he is sleeping.

... But they will have no problem accepting the WORK of the RCSG. Most western countries do heavy experimentations with deadly bio-weapons - mostly to find ways to fight them. But at some point those same scientists have to MAKE bio-weapons to fight. Same concept. You can bet the guys in charge of those labs are watching those scientists like hawks, and at the first sign of them doing something improper, they take actions that will seem extreme, but are seen as necessary.

Excellent analogy, Mike! I see the RCSG in similar terms and functioning under similar constraints. Overall, I think Rhomphaia hit the nail on the head when he said the CS leadership are effectively hypocrites, and the RSSG is one good place to point to, but only to a point. The thing to remember about them is that they are scientist, first and foremost. That means despite the abilities they have learned, (and the can be learned by anybody, hence the OCC), they seek to expand the Coalition's understanding of their enemy on their own terms. That means that they are NOT consorting with dark, evil supernatural forces from beyond the Rifts, but instead seeking the understand the supernatural in scientific terms... even if they have to make up a whole new branch of science to do it! The aim is not to understand magic, but to co-opt it into a tool they can illustrate in text books and mass-produce into weapons that can be used against the enemy by any idiot fresh out of boot camp. It doesn't matter if that "weapon" is a special gun, or just a special tactic to employ against certain enemies. But regardless of what that "weapon" is, they CS can ill afford to hide behind dogma and propaganda, not allow those to arbitrarily tie their hands.

I am going to suggest Deadboy's article in Rifter 37 as expanded reading for both of you Nightmask and Rhomphaia.

Thanks for the plug, bortha!

[MikelAmroni]

Phase 3) Extermination; once the subject has been observed long enough, in the wild, he is humanely put down via a dozen plasma mini-missile while he is sleeping.

Or by a squad of dogboys, with psi-stalker support, whichever is more expedient and cheaper. Sometimes you want to reward your psi-stalkers you know?

(and the can be learned by anybody, hence the OCC),

Well anybody with the right level of PPE, open minded scientific mind, and the proper attributes, but yeah, by anyone theoretically

Thanks for the plug, brotha!

Now if I can just get you to type the "L"...

I wouldn't use the word "embrace." More like, "grudgingly admitted."

Yeah, very grudgingly, and only recently in any meaningful ways (aside from using Psi-stalkers and Dogboys).

[wyrmraker]

Our group goes with RCSG Scientists having a special clearance. After all, it's fairly common knowledge that RCSG studies the Rifts, Ley Lines, and mages in general. Therefore under military classification, they would actually fall under a specialized category of trooper. Therefore even if one of them is detected as being high in PPE, their RCSG classification at the very least gets them sent to the local HQ, as their clearance is WAY above the average grunt or dogboy. But most times the troopers in question will just let them pass, given their specialized clearance for these matters. We do this for the problem of a high base PPE. Anything else (sympathizing with the enemy, possession of magic items without clearance, etc) is an entirely different set of charges.
It was the same military procedure used during the Cold War. CIA operatives operating as infiltrators had special clearance to do their thing, even during the height of McCarthyism. Also, modern think tank scientists (similar to the RCSG units in function) are assigned special clearances to work with the materials and tactics that would, in the hands of anyone else, be grounds for execution on the grounds of Treason. And since the CS military is heavily based on the US military method (organizationally, at least), it stands to reason that they'd adopt the clearance and need-to-know methodology as well.

[Lenwen]

What good are they really?

I see a lot of threads about Magic being the whup creation, but no one says anything about these bad boys. Now, the CS is a looming creep factory in my games, so I'd like to know if there is any anti-magic use for this OCC, and are they flat useless?

Flat useless ..

Two things ..

1) - They can never achieve high rank due to them always messing with magical items ..

2) - They always find the use of said magic items .. but could never fully utilize their potential because of the CS's stance on the use of said items ..

Which means they are both limited by the very power that wants them to understand the items they "collect" .. because of their own ideology ..

They are screwed twice over .. before your ever done rolling them up .. haha