Question on War Mount Combat Stats...

[NMI]

Question:

When determining the bonuses of a War Mount Rider while on/in his War Mount, does he get all of his combat bonuses PLUS all of the individual War Mounts bonuses PLUS War Mount Combat Skill bonuses PLUS the bonuses if it is his "Personal" War Mount?

I do not see why he would get his bonuses from say Hand to Hand Assassin or Expert while riding his War Mount. Just seems a little silly.

[Shark_Force]

so far as i can tell, it all says it's cumulative, no?

[krispy]

i dont have my book with me but it does sound excessive

isnt there different bonuses for riding a WM to when your not riding & using H-H bonuses. i cant remember

Shark_Force may be right

[NMI]

So if an Outrider in Host Armor has a +11 Parry, has War Mount Combat skill, his War Mount is a Tunnel Rat with a P.P. of 15 [with a +3 Parry] AND this particular Tunnel Rat was the Out Riders personal mount, then his Parry would be:

11 [Outrider in Host Armor]
1 [War Mount Combat Skill]
3 [Tunnel Rat Natural +3 Parry]
2 [Personal War Mount Bonus]
-------------------------------------
17 Parry???

# of Attacks:

5 [Outrider in Host Armor]
1 [War Mount Combat Skill]
4 [Tunnel Rat # of attacks]
1 [Personal War Mount Bonus]
-------------------------------------
11 attacks per melee???

Knowing all of this, who would want to be "just" a Dreadguard?

[krispy]

So if an Outrider in Host Armor has a +11 Parry, has War Mount Combat skill, his War Mount is a Tunnel Rat with a P.P. of 15 [with a +3 Parry] AND this particular Tunnel Rat was the Out Riders personal mount, then his Parry would be:

11 [Outrider in Host Armor]
1 [War Mount Combat Skill]
3 [Tunnel Rat Natural +3 Parry]
2 [Personal War Mount Bonus]
-------------------------------------
17 Parry???

# of Attacks:

5 [Outrider in Host Armor]
1 [War Mount Combat Skill]
4 [Tunnel Rat # of attacks]
1 [Personal War Mount Bonus]
-------------------------------------
11 attacks per melee???

Knowing all of this, who would want to be "just" a Dreadguard?

that reinforces what i said before that its seems excessive, i will have to look at my book asap, but could it be something like this

explanation
- a rider on WM, you could direct an attack at either the rider or WM. if you direct the attack at the rider the rider could parry it with their parry bonus only or command the WM the move(dodge) the attack in which you would use the pilot bouns and the WM dodge bonus. if the attack was directed toward the WM i would assume that the rider would realise that they could not dodge/parry the attack themself and therefore direct the WM to dodge or parry the attack, in which the pilot bonus and WM dodge/parry bonus would apply

- As for the number of attacks im a bit unsure. the rider can attack or direct the WM to attack (can the rider do both at the same time??) so the WM just moves while the rider attacks or the rider commands the WM to move & attack, or the rider commands the WM to move & attack while the rider attacks as well.

im sorry if this doesnt help or if it made it worse. it might be a bit convoluted but iv been thinking of the dynamics of a WM that if its pilot was not with it it will attack to defend itself - to then it being commanded by the pilot during a battle. is it totally obedient to its pilot (and does nothing unless commanded) or will some of its instinctive nature kick and react to situations that the pilot might not be aware of??

[The Galactus Kid]

It is all cumulative.

"Just" a Dreadguard? Dreadguards are an elite caste in the society. They are above outriders. Outriders are huge targets that will draw a lot of fire. Dreadguard are power armor pilots and the outriders are the robot pilots of Splicers.

I sent you the Ronin that will show you exactly what a dreadguard can become.

[NMI]

It is all cumulative.

"Just" a Dreadguard? Dreadguards are an elite caste in the society. They are above outriders. Outriders are huge targets that will draw a lot of fire. Dreadguard are power armor pilots and the outriders are the robot pilots of Splicers.

I sent you the Ronin that will show you exactly what a dreadguard can become.

I say "just" a Dreadguard when you look at the power level between a Dreadguard in Host Armor vs a Dreadguard in Host Armor on/in his personal War Mount. Its akin to having a glitterboy riding / commanding a hovertank.

Personally, I think I am going to nix the Host Armor that Outrider's get. They'll still get their living armor and any enhancements, but the Host Armor? Nope. Besides, an Outrider when choosing skill programs isn't even allowed the Host Armor Pilot program, so why should they get Host Armor itself?

[Shark_Force]

makes sense. they make a big fuss about host armor being a big deal for the dreadguard, and then they go and hand it out to other classes.

you may also want to consider roughneck, and just give them some heavy living armor with a few mods (and maybe some built-in weapons or modified handheld weapons etc), or give them proto-armor instead of full host armor.

[Premier]

It is all cumulative.

"Just" a Dreadguard? Dreadguards are an elite caste in the society. They are above outriders. Outriders are huge targets that will draw a lot of fire. Dreadguard are power armor pilots and the outriders are the robot pilots of Splicers.

I sent you the Ronin that will show you exactly what a dreadguard can become.

I say "just" a Dreadguard when you look at the power level between a Dreadguard in Host Armor vs a Dreadguard in Host Armor on/in his personal War Mount. Its akin to having a glitterboy riding / commanding a hovertank.

Personally, I think I am going to nix the Host Armor that Outrider's get. They'll still get their living armor and any enhancements, but the Host Armor? Nope. Besides, an Outrider when choosing skill programs isn't even allowed the Host Armor Pilot program, so why should they get Host Armor itself?

I really understand and agree with your concerns with the Outrider HA issue. I think the downsides for Outriders kick in when they have to go into areas where their large sized Warmounts are often too big/noticeable for usage and they must either stay behind with their Warmount or dismount and go with the players minus their Warmount. This is where the disadvantage sinks home, even with an HA, if its not enhanced enough it fails in comparison to the Dreadguard’s HA, especially at level ups. I also think this was original considered when the some of the machine’s minions had larger MDC stats on their armament. This would have helped warrant Outriders having HAs.

In my humble opinion, I suggest the following:
1.) Please consider the type of Warmount chosen to warrant an Outrider getting an HA or not?

Outrider’s that have flying Warmounts might warrant the HA to handle high G-Pressures, serious height falls, lower rates of breathable air at higher altitudes/deeper depths, and the type of assault they are likely to encounter from Sky Fighters, Flying Strike Ships and other aerial robots play a major role in survival for a character in the air. Also larger slower moving Warmounts on the ground who are likely to incur heavy amounts of gunfire may warrant HAs as well.

2.) Possible consideration as to “when” an Outrider receives their HA may also be utilized. I was discussing this idea with Slappy about introducing possible hybrid armors (cross between Living Body & HA).

What if the Greener Outriders had to prove themselves in the field and are initially given Hybrid Armors or Proto Armor for the introductory levels and then at level 3+ they could upgrade their Hybrid into an HA “if” they wanted to(or hand down the Proto Armor to a new Greener, and step into a new HA) or opt to receive a one time extra Bio-E bonus for their Warmount and keep what they are using. Those Outriders opting for the HA upgrade must also spend earned XP for the HA piloting skill. The hand-me-down Proto Armors really preserve Engineer time/Gene pool usage and really build nice intro Armors.

3.) Always be mindful of ALL the Requirements of taking both HA & Warmount (feeding, rest, hygiene, obvious choice of target, etc.).

It may be one thing to sneak around with an HA, but a stinky Warmount will always attract unwanted attention. No job is easy when you have two mouths to feed even if one is a Lithovore or Parasite metabolism; they are still serious responsibilities to keep track of.

[Premier]

makes sense. they make a big fuss about host armor being a big deal for the dreadguard, and then they go and hand it out to other classes.

you may also want to consider roughneck, and just give them some heavy living armor with a few mods (and maybe some built-in weapons or modified handheld weapons etc), or give them proto-armor instead of full host armor.

I really agree with you. I can’t say for certain what was originally intended for the 1st sourcebook as some classes were cut, but this is why I personally have began to push for developing more O.C.C.s that don’t have or allot Host Armors.

There are a boatload of ideas & directions where we ALL can develop Splicers biotechnology without Host Armors as they shouldn’t just be doled out all willy-nilly. IMHO, many of the Living Body armor designs can also be customized and should be entertained more as possible options for O.C.C.s. This is not to mention that Host Armors are supposed to be sort of rare in the Resistance, and are the signature for Dreadguards. I had to remind myself of this and would like to repost the original text to keep in perspective the value of HAs and Dreadguards.

(“The Dreadguards are living legends and the keepers of the notorious Host Armor, the Greatest weapon at the disposal of the human Resistance. They and they alone wield the full power of the Host Armor, and are the heart and soul of the human Resistance. It is said the Code of Duty is what separates the Dreadguard from all the other soldiers of the Human Resistance and earns them the privilege of wielding the unfettered Host armor.”
- Splicers original sourcebook Pg.149 & 150)

I have begun to remind myself of this when designing new O.C.C.s to preserve the significance, awe-factor & balance of Dreadguards and that no Splicers O.C.C. should really supercede or usurp the power that a true Dreadguard possesses. I know we love to have awesome formidable power but hopefully Splicers wont turn into another setting where its a competitve arms race on who can make bigger and badder concepts without balance as this could possibly ruin the setting, IMHO. I think the DG reminds us that with great power comes Great responsibility and that it should always be preserved as the hallmark for gauging power scale limitations.

I personally wouldn’t take HAs from Roughnecks as they are one of the few O.C.C.s that really are the hardcore grunts of the Resistance and they need them badly. I don’t know of many players that even choose to play from this perspective, “yet” that is. I just think we need to develop more far O.C.C.s without Host Armor.

[Shark_Force]

makes sense. they make a big fuss about host armor being a big deal for the dreadguard, and then they go and hand it out to other classes.

you may also want to consider roughneck, and just give them some heavy living armor with a few mods (and maybe some built-in weapons or modified handheld weapons etc), or give them proto-armor instead of full host armor.

I really agree with you. I can’t say for certain what was originally intended for the 1st sourcebook as some classes were cut, but this is why I personally have began to push for developing more O.C.C.s that don’t have or allot Host Armors.

There are a boatload of ideas & directions where we ALL can develop Splicers biotechnology without Host Armors as they shouldn’t just be doled out all willy-nilly. IMHO, many of the Living Body armor designs can also be customized and should be entertained more as possible options for O.C.C.s. This is not to mention that Host Armors are supposed to be sort of rare in the Resistance, and are the signature for Dreadguards. I had to remind myself of this and would like to repost the original text to keep in perspective the value of HAs and Dreadguards.

(“The Dreadguards are living legends and the keepers of the notorious Host Armor, the Greatest weapon at the disposal of the human Resistance. They and they alone wield the full power of the Host Armor, and are the heart and soul of the human Resistance. It is said the Code of Duty is what separates the Dreadguard from all the other soldiers of the Human Resistance and earns them the privilege of wielding the unfettered Host armor.”
- Splicers original sourcebook Pg.149 & 150)

I have begun to remind myself of this when designing new O.C.C.s to preserve the significance, awe-factor & balance of Dreadguards and that no Splicers O.C.C. should really supercede or usurp the power that a true Dreadguard possesses. I know we love to have awesome formidable power but hopefully Splicers wont turn into another setting where its a competitve arms race on who can make bigger and badder concepts without balance as this could possibly ruin the setting, IMHO. I think the DG reminds us that with great power comes Great responsibility and that it should always be preserved as the hallmark for gauging power scale limitations.

I personally wouldn’t take HAs from Roughnecks as they are one of the few O.C.C.s that really are the hardcore grunts of the Resistance and they need them badly. I don’t know of many players that even choose to play from this perspective, “yet” that is. I just think we need to develop more far O.C.C.s without Host Armor.

well, living armors can take almost all of the mods that a host armor can, so if you give the roughneck a suit of tricked-out living armor it would actually give them a pretty good set of gear for fighting in, and still leaves lots of versatility. and proto-host armor is at the very least quite strong and tough, so i'm not suggesting they get nothing, merely that full-blown host armor doesn't seem quite appropriate to me (note: proto-host armor is still limited to family members, can't just be handed off to anyone. living armor, however, can be handed off as needed to anyone who isn't a technojacker or drone/robot... and i think some of slappy's creations that are drones* can even bypass that limitation)

* drones in the splicer sense are basically robots that look like humans, and does not mean they lack complex AI.

in fact, i personally would like to see a lot more fleshing out of the living armor, and see it more widely used. like i said, host armor is supposed to be a special thing given only to the dreadguard, although some of the very specialised host armor that goes with certain OCCs would be fine (the swarm lord does have 'host armor' for example, but it is sufficiently different from standard host armor that you could easily justify that the armor wouldn't intrude into dreadguard territory).

[NMI]

It is all cumulative.

"Just" a Dreadguard? Dreadguards are an elite caste in the society. They are above outriders. Outriders are huge targets that will draw a lot of fire. Dreadguard are power armor pilots and the outriders are the robot pilots of Splicers.

I sent you the Ronin that will show you exactly what a dreadguard can become.

I say "just" a Dreadguard when you look at the power level between a Dreadguard in Host Armor vs a Dreadguard in Host Armor on/in his personal War Mount. Its akin to having a glitterboy riding / commanding a hovertank.

Personally, I think I am going to nix the Host Armor that Outrider's get. They'll still get their living armor and any enhancements, but the Host Armor? Nope. Besides, an Outrider when choosing skill programs isn't even allowed the Host Armor Pilot program, so why should they get Host Armor itself?

I really understand and agree with your concerns with the Outrider HA issue. I think the downsides for Outriders kick in when they have to go into areas where their large sized Warmounts are often too big/noticeable for usage and they must either stay behind with their Warmount or dismount and go with the players minus their Warmount. This is where the disadvantage sinks home, even with an HA, if its not enhanced enough it fails in comparison to the Dreadguard’s HA, especially at level ups. I also think this was original considered when the some of the machine’s minions had larger MDC stats on their armament. This would have helped warrant Outriders having HAs.

In my humble opinion, I suggest the following:
1.) Please consider the type of Warmount chosen to warrant an Outrider getting an HA or not?

Outrider’s that have flying Warmounts might warrant the HA to handle high G-Pressures, serious height falls, lower rates of breathable air at higher altitudes/deeper depths, and the type of assault they are likely to encounter from Sky Fighters, Flying Strike Ships and other aerial robots play a major role in survival for a character in the air. Also larger slower moving Warmounts on the ground who are likely to incur heavy amounts of gunfire may warrant HAs as well.

2.) Possible consideration as to “when” an Outrider receives their HA may also be utilized. I was discussing this idea with Slappy about introducing possible hybrid armors (cross between Living Body & HA).

What if the Greener Outriders had to prove themselves in the field and are initially given Hybrid Armors or Proto Armor for the introductory levels and then at level 3+ they could upgrade their Hybrid into an HA “if” they wanted to(or hand down the Proto Armor to a new Greener, and step into a new HA) or opt to receive a one time extra Bio-E bonus for their Warmount and keep what they are using. Those Outriders opting for the HA upgrade must also spend earned XP for the HA piloting skill. The hand-me-down Proto Armors really preserve Engineer time/Gene pool usage and really build nice intro Armors.

3.) Always be mindful of ALL the Requirements of taking both HA & Warmount (feeding, rest, hygiene, obvious choice of target, etc.).

It may be one thing to sneak around with an HA, but a stinky Warmount will always attract unwanted attention. No job is easy when you have two mouths to feed even if one is a Lithovore or Parasite metabolism; they are still serious responsibilities to keep track of.

They get Living Armor. I am not nixing that.

[sHaka]

I'm with Shark_Force - Host armour should be preserved for the Dreadguard and I'd like to see greater use of the living armours.

It always suprised me that Outriders get HA in addition to their mounts - weaker than a Dreadguards yes - but HA all the same. Not sure if it will ever come up (all of my players seem to pass over that class) but I'd be tempted to bust them down to LA.

[The Galactus Kid]

I can see why you might nix the host armor for outriders, but I personally wouldn't. If you want to see absolutely disgusting characters, roll up a pack master.

[Shark_Force]

I can see why you might nix the host armor for outriders, but I personally wouldn't. If you want to see absolutely disgusting characters, roll up a pack master.

i did, once. it take me about three days, as i recall. i posted it here on the boards.

sure, the packmaster (or rather, the pack as a whole) was pretty impressive. but they don't get those ridiculous combined bonuses that outriders do... while each character in the pack had autododge iirc, they didn't have crazy +17 bonus to autododge or anything like that (and frankly, a single creature with +17 to autododge is much more resistant to attack than 4 creatures with +6 to +8 for autododge, often less).

they did have a lot of attacks per melee as a pack, but each individual attack was not as good as the individual attack of a warmount with an outrider in host armor on it. (mind you, i'm rather surprised in a way that more packmasters wouldn't be assigned at least some kind of warmount... they can get just about any warmount to do what they tell it to do, iirc)

[The Galactus Kid]

I allow my players packmaster to include the breed bonuses for specific dog breeds based on the dog boys from Rifts. He has a wolf (melee spec), a Greyhound (ranged spec), an Airedale Terrier (scout/point spec), a rottweiler (tank), and a English Bull Dog (tank). There is a pic posted on Chuck Waltons Deviant Art page.

Also, the pack master himself has a special form of Heavy Hide armor since the player is one of the first in a line of "Elite" Packmasters of Great House Warsaw.

I'll have to find the description of the armor and post it here.

[demos606]

As a point of interest, any OCC, except Biotics and Technojackers, can be given the use of War Mounts. Also, Outriders aren't guaranteed access to their personal Mounts for every mission - Behemoth or Grendel isn't much use in an aerial assault and they're all out for cave crawling. Underwater only gives you Leviathans as a practical limitation.

[Premier]

As a point of interest, any OCC, except Biotics and Technojackers, can be given the use of War Mounts. Also, Outriders aren't guaranteed access to their personal Mounts for every mission - Behemoth or Grendel isn't much use in an aerial assault and they're all out for cave crawling. Underwater only gives you Leviathans as a practical limitation.

Very well put and I think this aspect is something that is often overlooked in overall gameplay. When it comes to missions in the field, certain Warmounts aren't always applicable and in some cases can be a hindrance and the Outrider has to opt for other Warmounts or even in some cases without one.

I will also say this, (IMHO) Splicers is not meant to be one of those games where EVERY OCC is going to balance out against every other OCC. Its based on field purpose and functionality, and depending on the scenario, certain OCCs/Biotech simply work better than others. Archangels aren't likely to excel in tight sewer crawl missions & TJs have their work cut out for them inside a biased Haven campaign. The key for me is choosing an OCC to have long-term fun with, exploring its creativity and developing the character. I think GMs should be wary of +17 auto bonuses when it comes to very large objects being targetted, especially "if" that Warmount is not functionally built to dodge like an insect (ex: Behemoth, Dracos, etc.).

[Premier]

I allow my players packmaster to include the breed bonuses for specific dog breeds based on the dog boys from Rifts. He has a wolf (melee spec), a Greyhound (ranged spec), an Airedale Terrier (scout/point spec), a rottweiler (tank), and a English Bull Dog (tank). There is a pic posted on Chuck Waltons Deviant Art page.

Also, the pack master himself has a special form of Heavy Hide armor since the player is one of the first in a line of "Elite" Packmasters of Great House Warsaw.

I'll have to find the description of the armor and post it here.

Oh man... GK, Packmasters can be very serious contenders if developed right and Borris is a good example of this.

http://madjaguar.deviantart.com/art/Pac ... -148658117

I can only wonder what new schemes of Packmasters will be developed once we get the new material out. I think Packmasters are one of the most versatile OCCs. Carmen did a beyond excellent job with this OCC.

[The Galactus Kid]

Thanks for the link, Chuck.

[sHaka]

As a point of interest, any OCC, except Biotics and Technojackers, can be given the use of War Mounts. Also, Outriders aren't guaranteed access to their personal Mounts for every mission - Behemoth or Grendel isn't much use in an aerial assault and they're all out for cave crawling. Underwater only gives you Leviathans as a practical limitation.

True - Skinjobs (my favourite class) have one as part of their starting gear, and a wing pack