15th Level Mystic Knight vs 15th level Battle Magus

[Lenwen]

Omitted for reasons of space is a sin of omission. Nonetheless, it doesn't matter. Battle Magus still wins. He could use those two actions to cast LIFEWARD. Then the MK is really screwed. No matter what he does, all damage converts to SDC at 1/1. At that point, the battle is totally over. I wasn't going to bring that up at first because it's too mean, but there you go.

3 Sleep Granades .. teleported into the Force Field all going off .. Eventually the BM goes to sleep.

Then its game over.

Easy win for the MK.

especially with out the "None Canon Teleport personel" spell you tried to use ..



Mk is just too much beast for the BM to try to tackle alone ..

EDIT- Again Balabanto has yet to prove my two points wrong. And has tried to use a none cannon Rifter Spell to try to wieght the end of the fight in favor of the BM.

Again the more Balabanto tries to ignore the rules of engagement the more I think the Mk wins ..

[Balabanto]

Eventually the BM goes to sleep? You've got to be kidding me. All his saves are 2s. Roll a 1 and fail. That's it. And that's a liberal interpretation of the rules. He will be out of there long before he fails the save. Not to mention Breathe Without Air is on their starting spell list. The simple expedient of a gas mask that any first level PC can acquire for 500 credits is also a key factor here.

[Lenwen]

Eventually the BM goes to sleep? You've got to be kidding me. All his saves are 2s. Roll a 1 and fail.

Questions ..

1) - How is the BM's save vs magic only 2 ? (Please break this down an show me)

That's it. And that's a liberal interpretation of the rules. He will be out of there long before he fails the save. Not to mention Breathe Without Air is on their starting spell list. The simple expedient of a gas mask that any first level PC can acquire for 500 credits is also a key factor here.

2) - Since when are you required to "Smell" in order for a Magical Granade to effect you ?

[Balabanto]

Oh, it's a magical grenade? Then Invulnerability will take care of it. His high PE score plus the +10 from Invulnerability (Remember the Deathbringer Sword) means he needs a 2. The spell strength of the grenade can't be more than 14. The BM's PE is actually kind of irrelevant at that point, but a score in the mid-20s is probably not unreasonable.

[Lenwen]

Oh, it's a magical grenade? Then Invulnerability will take care of it. His high PE score plus the +10 from Invulnerability (Remember the Deathbringer Sword) means he needs a 2. The spell strength of the grenade can't be more than 14. The BM's PE is actually kind of irrelevant at that point, but a score in the mid-20s is probably not unreasonable.

Create a BM.

I will create a MK.

Lets play test this in the Digi Chat ..

[Lenwen]

Second time I've invited you to show how you would play in game the BM vs my MK .. in the digichat ..

You not wanting to is as clear sign that you do not even beleive what your saying about the BM ..

Mk for the win in this one.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

The battle will never get that far. This is a one action battle, essentially. SOmeone will get simuled in the first attack, since neither can kill the other with one shot.
One person will get disabled and the other will slaughter them.

I think the battle will go on a little longer than that.

we aren't talking what a player character would do, we are talking what an action movie character would do. It would be like one of those anime cliches where they run at each other and one of them falls. they wouldn't stand around slinging spells, they aren't mages. they are warrior mages. They actually fight, they might cast one or two low level spells at the very beginning of the fight, but they each know that letting the other one get the drop on them is suicide. This would be more like the climactic showdown you see in movies, and less like a wizard duel. One proper use of the deathbringer will deplete the magical protection field of invulnerability, one well cast negation will wipe it away. This fight will rely less on magic, and more on talent.

[Balabanto]

The battle will never get that far. This is a one action battle, essentially. SOmeone will get simuled in the first attack, since neither can kill the other with one shot.
One person will get disabled and the other will slaughter them.

I think the battle will go on a little longer than that.

we aren't talking what a player character would do, we are talking what an action movie character would do. It would be like one of those anime cliches where they run at each other and one of them falls. they wouldn't stand around slinging spells, they aren't mages. they are warrior mages. They actually fight, they might cast one or two low level spells at the very beginning of the fight, but they each know that letting the other one get the drop on them is suicide. This would be more like the climactic showdown you see in movies, and less like a wizard duel. One proper use of the deathbringer will deplete the magical protection field of invulnerability, one well cast negation will wipe it away. This fight will rely less on magic, and more on talent.

You just totally stacked the field in favor of the Battle Magus. The only reason the MK has even a chance at all is because he is more likely to cheat.

Battle Magus can cast Negate Magic at the end of the first round of combat, and the MK has no way of doing this. Fight ends.

[Subjugator]

In Rifts, order of operations matters, where as in other games, it matters much less. In this case, you have to choose your OCC before you choose your powers. So if you choose to be a Mystic Knight, you can't have any abilities from HU, because you're not allowed to crack the book. Conversion Book, Revised P 43.

Which column and paragraph? I've read that page and am not seeing it.

BM is now Personally Teleporting, it's a standard invocation. Remember, also, that the force field cannot dodge, so it's taken enough damage for the BM to hack his way out, however, that is not to the character's advantage.

Have you anything that says that Personal Teleport is canonical? So far I've seen nothing.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Except that the FF has 25 points left at this point and one swing gets him out. It's irrelevant. He could easily spend those other two actions chewing gum, and he would still kill the Mystic Knight before taking damage. The more bombs you send in, the more damage the force field takes. The spells are in a Q+A section. Errata is errata.

There's no way the Battle Magus will take a lick of damage before the Mystic Knight buys it. Those extra two actions used to cast the spell could easily just be sword swings.

Stating that it is errata doesn't make it official. Do the words, "Personal teleport is an official rule change to the Rifts Universe" (or something substantively similar) appear in that copy of the Rifter? I don't have mine handy.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Omitted for reasons of space is a sin of omission. Nonetheless, it doesn't matter. Battle Magus still wins. He could use those two actions to cast LIFEWARD. Then the MK is really screwed. No matter what he does, all damage converts to SDC at 1/1. At that point, the battle is totally over. I wasn't going to bring that up at first because it's too mean, but there you go.

That means, "We forgot to put it in earlier, so here it is now." It does not mean, "It is also official."

/Sub

[rat_bastard]

BM is now Personally Teleporting, it's a standard invocation. Remember, also, that the force field cannot dodge, so it's taken enough damage for the BM to hack his way out, however, that is not to the character's advantage.

Have you anything that says that Personal Teleport is canonical? So far I've seen nothing.

/Sub

Its in the megaverse builder, it is indeed canon for rifts.

[Subjugator]

Its in the megaverse builder, it is indeed canon for rifts.

Confirmed. It's a canonical spell.

HOWEVER, it's only available to Shifters and Temporal Magic OCCs, and that is specifically stated. Pg. 47, Megaverse Builder.

/Sub

[Lenwen]

BM is now Personally Teleporting, it's a standard invocation. Remember, also, that the force field cannot dodge, so it's taken enough damage for the BM to hack his way out, however, that is not to the character's advantage.

Have you anything that says that Personal Teleport is canonical? So far I've seen nothing.

/Sub

Its in the megaverse builder, it is indeed canon for rifts.

That is not the same spell Balabanto is talking about.

Teleport ersonal

is not the same as

Teleport : Self.

[Lenwen]

Battle Magus can cast Negate Magic at the end of the first round of combat, and the MK has no way of doing this. Fight ends.

Since when does Negate Magic float around the opponant .. rather then being a cloud you can move out of its area of effect ? (its area effect is 60ft TOTAL, not per lvl but 60 ft TOTAL which is laughable)

Since when does Negate Magic .. negate Psionic powers ?

Since when does Negate Magic .. negate technological weaponry ?

Since when does Negate Magic .. negate hand 2 hand abilities ?

You seem to think that Magic is the only thing the Mystic Knight has going .. And that Negate Magic is going to turn the tide of the battle with out question and the MK is simply going to roll over an let you beat on him ..

Sorry .. but MK's are nasty nasty nasty villians .. of the highest caliber .. If you think that a simple negate magic is going to be the end all thats it game ..

I'm not sure you understand what youre dealing with ..

Whats negate magic going to do when the MK pulls out a rail gun (or laser, or Plasma, or Particle Beam weaponry) ?

Whats negate magic going to do when the BM is trapped inside of a Psionic Force Field Bubble ?

Not to mention .. Negate Magic = 2 or 3 action spell casting ..

Means you leave your self open for 2-3 actions of the MK .. to attack you or litterally do anything he chooses ..

BM starts casting Negate magic .. (This is the BM's action)
MK shoots the BM for 7d6 MD ..... (This is the MK's action), And subsequently the BM now has to start the casting over.

(Rules of magic clearly state if youre under direct fire you can not cast period)
(Rules of magic clearly state if youre bothered in the least .. You can not cast a spell)

While the BM is busy trying to focus on casting Negate Magic, he is completely defenseless and has no actions for the duration of the spell being cast is .. (2-3 actions for a lvl 8 spell)

Punching the BM in the face is enough to stop the spell casting of Negate Magic, imagine getting hit for Mega Damage while trying to cast ..

In other words .. the BM leaving themselves open for 2-3 actions is more then enough for the MK to disrupt any spell that the BM is trying to cast ..

Basically .. The BM may have the spell an the ability to cast the spell .. But .. the MK will not allow the BM the time to cast the spell ..

Especially if the BM is close enough to actually use magic in combat .. considering the MK's ability to shoot Bolts of Energy out to 1'000 ft (or more)

So youre arguement of the BM will cast Negate Magic is already proven that it will not work. Two simple reasons.

1) - its not going to be close enough to do anything to the Mk .. over 2'000ft or more away .. due to the Mk's shooting at him.

2) - The Spell itself takes 2-3 actions to cast, and if youre close enough for the magic to effect the Mk, then youre close enough for the Mk to disrupt the actual casting of said spell.

The BM will not get that spell off.

EDIT:

And Negate Magic = Can be saved against .. rather easily by a 15th lvl caster.

[Balabanto]

Yeah, he can save. But it's FREE.

It's pretty much free. You've also ignored "man on fire" and Lifeward. Once the MK can't cast spells, he's a deader. Half damage is still "on fire" It doesn't matter that it's only half. Non-renewable armor=dead.

The Carpet/Wind Rush is still exactly whato prt it is, too.

Too many options for defeating the MK. I could come up with more, but the extra attacks, paired weapons, not to mention casting Fighting Spirit if I really want to at the end of round one, making for a grand total of 14 actions, more bonuses and saves, what have you, there are so many different ways to make the MK cry. The only way the MK has to make the Battle Magus cry is to pray he makes the HF save at the beginning of the second round IF the BM doesn't just renew Armor Bizarre.

There are too many level 7 and higher spells the Knight just cannot match. Word of Death can be whispered in his ear at the end of round one for 34d6 of Damage direct to hit points. Who cares if he saves? Then it's only 17d6 of damage direct to hit points. The MK just doesn't have enough hit points to match these tricks. His armor, his weapons, they all mean nothing, because 7th level spells and up are all colossal monkey wrenches.

[Lenwen]

You've also ignored

Balabanto .. You have totally ignored every thing I've shown you .. about how youre BM would lose to the MK ..

Instead of accepting defeat you try to say well then I would .. or anything of that nature.

You have tried to give youre BM 3 actions to 0 actions for the Mk ..

You have given youre BM a Deathbringer sword, I've given my Mk Hand Granades you tried to tell me I was being unfair ..

You have yet to even acknowledge the fact that it takes 3 actions to get off "Negate Magic" spell..

The Mk would down the BM prior to the BM ever getting that spell or any other 3 action spell off in actual combat ..

Again that is something you are totally ignoring ..

Balabanto .. Its clear to me you are not in this thread to actually debat the mechanic's of the fight, Your only here to try to force your view of the BM winning over the Mk .. with out cause .. with out logic .. or with out reason .

When You are proven wrong you ignore the post and attempt to try a new stratagy. I've offered multiple times to have you create a BM 15th lvl an meet me in digi chat with my 15th lvl Mk and you continually ignore it ..

Perhaps its time to move on an allow other posters to post thier point of views now ?

[Lenwen]

There are too many level 7 and higher spells the Knight just cannot match.

Levels 1-5 = 1 action spells you can get these off in 1 action like a melee combat move.

Levels 6-10= 2 action spells, you HAVE to take 2 actions to get the spells off leaving yourself open to attack with out getting a dodge, parry, or roll with impact .. basically youre giving the Mk a Free shot.

Levels 11-Legend = 3 action spells, You give the Mk 2 actions with which youre totally open for attack with out any way to fight back, dodge, parry, or roll with impact.. basically youre giving the Mk 2 free attacks .. And there is nuthing you can do about it .

Basically Anything over Level 5 for spells being cast .. by the BM .. and youre giving the Mk either 1 or 2 free shots to disrupt any spell youre trying to cast ..

Aka .. anything over lvl 5 in actual combat scenario for a 1on1 fight = a Bad thing.

Especially with the ranges that which you will need to be (absolutly close) to the Mk for you to have the spells take effect ..

[Balabanto]

The MK cannot disrupt any of the spells, A Battle Magus cannot be harried, blah blah blah. Read the text of the OCC. His only means of doing so is to deal DIRECT damage to the BM, and if he gets caught in a duel of Mental Blasts, he will run out of PPE first, or die first since you conceded that the BM will win Initiative.

His only, and I repeat, his only chance to live is to take one action to activate the Deathbringer Sword, or he will fail a save, since RAW a roll of 1 does not always fail, and then the penalties will start and he will die. (I make a roll of 1 always fail. I'm not that pleasant)

Remember that each of these characters is an SDC Human with around 80 hit points.

So that's 9 mental blasts to bring one person down assuming that they don't do anything else.

Hell, as long as the BM has the ability to survive round one, he casts Sorcerous Fury at the end of Round one after the MK is out of actions, and then the MK is completely aced. 15 actions to 9, a ton of megadamage, two 2d4x10 lightning bolts a round, etc.

The BM will be sad when the MK dies. But so what? (Sorcerous Fury is stupid)

I've listed at least 10 ways the BM slaughters the MK into cheddar.

Also, remember, this is Rifts Earth. Average engagement distance is 100-300 feet, or about 200 feet, well within the range of Mental Blast.

Oh, one more thing. The Battle Magus can fire and cast spells while moving. He has Sharpshooting. The MK does not.

[Lenwen]

The MK cannot disrupt any of the spells, A Battle Magus cannot be harried, blah blah blah. Read the text of the OCC. His only means of doing so is to deal DIRECT damage to the BM

Pg # of refrence of where the BM can cast while running ? I only seen where the BM can cast Magic spells involving throwing or fireing/blasts.

Since the spells you have been "Attempting" to use are neither a blast or a throwing type magic. Youre BM still has to stand completely still an cast the magic.

His only, and I repeat, his only chance to live is to take one action to activate the Deathbringer Sword, or he will fail a save

True. the BM's only chance at survival past the 1st round would be the Bonas's accured when the Deathbringer has been activated.

So that's 9 mental blasts to bring one person down assuming that they don't do anything else.

in a 1 on 1 fight, who in thier right mind will let anyone attack them 9 times .. with out the chance to attack back ?

Hell, as long as the BM has the ability to survive round one, he casts Sorcerous Fury at the end of Round one after the MK is out of actions, and then the MK is completely aced. 15 actions to 9, a ton of megadamage, two 2d4x10 lightning bolts a round, etc.

Again .. your not listening .. Sorcerous Fury = 3 actions to cast .. the BM would be dead before ever getting it off against the Mk .. Period.

I've listed at least 10 ways the BM slaughters the MK into cheddar.

And you have ignored the rules of the game.

According to you .. Mks = Scholar .. Bm's get 15 attacks (they really only get 12) .. BM's can cast any spell in the game in 1 action .. Letting a known Evil Class use Granades is not fair ..

I mean I could go on an on but you only seem to ignore anything that proves you wrong.

When you want to know the truth of the matter the Mk will win more 1 on 1 fights (out of this duo fighting) then the BM will.

Strickly because of the following ..
1) - Higher lvled Spells in a 1 on 1 situation = a Weakness .. not and advantage.
2) - Range is in favor of the Mk .. by far .. the BM can possibly catch the Mk with 1 spell if that .. and it will run the BM dry long before it runs the Mk dry .. The Mk's long range ability is 1'000 ft +1,000ft more for 5 PPE more .. The BM has nuthing to counter that .. offensively
3) - The Mk also has Psionic's on his side, to utterly outclass the BM in nearly every concievable way. (Negate Magic, oh well now I will just use Tech and Psionic's instead of Magical attacks.. )
4) - The Mk will use Tech weapons just as fast as they would thier magic or thier Psionics .. for both range or flat out stopping power.

These are things you have yet to even consider. If you have anything of any real logic to add to the discussion, please do. But please do not ignore the obvious ..

Its getting boring .. but for every time you ignore the truth of the matter I will be there to remind ya

[Balabanto]

Except HF 16. Armor Bizarre. And you need to SEE the character to target the character. You're not thinking about the system as a whole, I am.

You're so locked into this one method of destruction that you don't see that most of the counters I raised do in fact work. And I'm adding 2 actions for Fighting Spirit, assuming the BM takes the time to get that off at the end of the first round after the MK is out. The energy blasts DON'T Matter. Invulnerability is the first action. How can you assume a range of 2500 feet when the average Rifts Encounter distance is 100-300 feet.

People don't shout "I challenge you to a duel...duel...duel..." and let it echo across the canyon. At that range, the MK can't even SEE the Battle Magus well enough to target him. His real enemy is the curvature of the Earth.

This pretty much comes down to who can do the most damage direct to hit points, and that person is the Battle Magus. Sorry.

[Mack]

And it appears you missed my above edit, which was:
Corollary Question: Would you allow a MK to spontaneously learn spells from Palladium Fantasy?

Unless there were conflicting rules set in place to avoid such a thing, then I would not allow it.

If there are no conflicting canon rules .. then I would allow it.

And how is that not a house rule? To allow non-Rifts ability in Rifts?

[Lenwen]

How can you assume a range of 2500 feet when the average Rifts Encounter distance is 100-300 feet.

This is not an "Average" rifts encounter.

This is an encounter of two VASTLY powerful beings intimatly aware of each other's abilities and powers.

When youre talking about 2 level 15 characters duking it out, 1 on 1, youre not talking about an "Average" anything.

And for a lvl 15 Mk, thier going to know thier kill range is from 2,000 ft or closer. And being caster's themselves .. thier intimatly aware of what it looks like when another is casting a high lvl spell especially when thier not moving .. at all ..

This fight goes to the Mk.

This fight is up for grabs if the BM has a Deathbringer.

This fight goes to the Mk if the Mk and BM both have Deathbringer's.

Any spell that requires 2 or more actions will not be able to be used in close combat (Due to the mage being attacked) or at range (due to magic's very limited range)

Means the BM is going to have to be at the perfect range of 100 to 500 ft for him to get that high lvl spell off .. and thats if the Mk allows him to do so.

[Lenwen]

And it appears you missed my above edit, which was:
Corollary Question: Would you allow a MK to spontaneously learn spells from Palladium Fantasy?

Unless there were conflicting rules set in place to avoid such a thing, then I would not allow it.

If there are no conflicting canon rules .. then I would allow it.

And how is that not a house rule? To allow non-Rifts ability in Rifts?

It is in fact not a house rule due to the very blatent fact that there are no rules against it.

In the write up of the Mk's it neither stats that you can or can not choose psionic's from other settings.

In the write up of the Mk's it only specifies that you can choose Psionic's from either Sensative or Physical catagories and of course 2 at certain lvls from the Super Psionic catagory with out limit.

There in lies the whole it is not a house rule debat.


Mack I am curious about this now.

As a GM would you allow a Mystic Knight to choose psionics from the world thier in .. or the world of thier berth ?

Meaning say for instance you have a Mystic born from the Palladium world but raised since berth in Rifts earth.

Would you not allow him to choose the psionic's from the place of his berth or would you make them choose the psionic's from the current dimension of his dwellings ?

[Balabanto]

Actually, that's not correct. If it doesn't say you can, you can't. Specific always outweighs general.

[Mack]

And it appears you missed my above edit, which was:
Corollary Question: Would you allow a MK to spontaneously learn spells from Palladium Fantasy?

Unless there were conflicting rules set in place to avoid such a thing, then I would not allow it.

If there are no conflicting canon rules .. then I would allow it.

And how is that not a house rule? To allow non-Rifts ability in Rifts?

It is in fact not a house rule due to the very blatent fact that there are no rules against it.

As previously stated, and ignored by you: "That RUE does not expressly prohibit it is not an tacit approval as there are millions of things RUE does not prohibit, such as powers from movies or other game companies."

In the write up of the Mk's it neither stats that you can or can not choose psionic's from other settings.

In the write up of the Mk's it only specifies that you can choose Psionic's from either Sensative or Physical catagories and of course 2 at certain lvls from the Super Psionic catagory with out limit.

There in lies the whole it is not a house rule debat.

So what is the simplest conclusion? Occam's Razor tells us that a character develops abilities from the world he is in, not from one he is not in.

Mack I am curious about this now.

As a GM would you allow a Mystic Knight to choose psionics from the world thier in .. or the world of thier berth ?

Meaning say for instance you have a Mystic born from the Palladium world but raised since berth in Rifts earth.

Would you not allow him to choose the psionic's from the place of his berth or would you make them choose the psionic's from the current dimension of his dwellings ?

As I said previously, and you ignored: "If you want to change the discussion to cross-game question, we can do that. But first please address the original situation: A Rifts character spontaneously gaining non-Rifts abilities."

Please explain how allowing a power from another game is not a house rule.

[Subjugator]

Actually, that's not correct. If it doesn't say you can, you can't. Specific always outweighs general.

It says they can choose anything from the given categories. Those categories extend to HU as well. It doesn't say they can choose them from only the R:UE book. Just those categories.

/Sub

[Lenwen]

Please explain how allowing a power from another game is not a house rule.

EDIT:
Point ceeded to you Mack, this single power is not needed for the Mk to win out over the Battle Magus in 1 on 1 combat.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

This has quickly turned from an interesting conversation, to a mental masturbation and Who's-Blank(magic/sword/armor/attacks-per-melee)-is-bigger contest. I am no longer amused, or interested at all, at least when it was a popularity contest it was still fun to watch. Enjoy.

[Lenwen]

This has quickly turned from an interesting conversation, to a mental masturbation and Who's-Blank(magic/sword/armor/attacks-per-melee)-is-bigger contest. I am no longer amused, or interested at all, at least when it was a popularity contest it was still fun to watch. Enjoy.

Very true.. and unfortunatly I was part of the "is bigger contest" part of the thread.

I shall stick to pointing out the obvious on this thread from this point on.

Mack, I ceed the (no rules so its not against them) debat to you. Its not that important of a single power for the Mk to win. The Mk will still win rather easily with or with out that 1 single Psionic power.

[Lenwen]

Battle Magus vs Mystic Knight Logically showing the work.

Weapons:
At 15th lvl they will both have nearly identical weapons. (They negate each other out)
Edge: Neither.
--------------
Armor:
At 15th lvl each will have magical armor (they negate each other out)
Worn Armors:
BM - 45 MDC
MK - 70 MDC
Edge: Mystic Knight. (more mdc if only just 25 more)
--------------
Magical Combat at lvl 15:
BM - 76 total Spells. 30 spells require 2 actions to cast. 20 spells require 3 actions to cast. This hurts the BM more then it actually helps the BM .. Means the BM has a total of 26 spells in which he can get off in 1 melee action.
BM PPE : 286 (max numbers with a PE of 18.) MAX: 858 PPE.

MK - 35 total Spells. (5 at most are lvl 6 which requires 2 actions to cast.) Means there are 30 other spells the Mk can get off with 1 melee action, and the innate ability of the Mk to throw magical energy with perhaps the most cost effective offensive ability out of either combatent. (this is something the Battle Magus can not overcome. The damage nor the Range of this ability)
MK PPE : 278 (max numbers with a PE of 18) MAX: 834 PPE.

Edge : Mystic Knight. Due to Range, Damage and Cost per Offensive spell.
--------------
Technological Advantage:
BM - Can have very limited weaponry when written up according to thier City Protector roles.

MK - Can have virtually any Technological weapon that he can lay his hands on.

Edge: Mystic Knight. Due to the leeway, in the Technological things they can lay thier hands on.
--------------
Psionics

BM - None.

MK - Major Psychic. Has at 15th lvl, 21 different powers from Phsyical, Sensative and Super Psionic abilities. ISP at lvl 15 would be around 159:ISP.

Edge - MK (due to the abilities presented threw his Psionic powers. If the BM casts Negate Magic or Anti Magic Cloud, the Mystic Knight can simple revert to either Tech weapons or Psionic powers dependent upon the range of combat at that moment.)

15th lvl Mystic Knight vs 15th lvl Battle Magus.
Ability......:MK.........BM
Strike......:7............4
Parry.......:7............9
Dodge.....:8............10
Initiative..:11...........6 (this alone tips the balance of the fight in a huge favor for the Mystic Knight.)

Summery:
Weapons Edge : Tie.
Armor Edge : Mystic Knight (by 25 MDC)
Magic Combat Edge :Mystic Knight (90% of his spells are 1 action spells means he will get them off faster.)
Technological Edge : Tie
Psionic Edge: Mystic Knight, (21 different powers threw Psionic abilities is the edge in this fight.)

In a battle of 1 on 1, The only way the BM has a chance to win would be if the BM has a Deathbringer Sword. And then the BM better hope an pray the Mystic Knight does not have his own Deathbringer Sword.

I believe this is about as fair as it gets.

[Balabanto]

Go back and look at the parameters in the First Post on this thread. That is not what they have as equipment.

Plus Sharpshooting. Do you actually understand what this does for Mental Blast? That spell contains the word blast in it's name, which includes all sharpshooting and quickdraw init bonuses. You are not reading what these classes actually do. Plus, skill selection changes these numbers a lot. Skills the BM gets for free, the MK has to PAY for. That hurts a lot.

Now add Quickdraw on top of that. The Battle Magus will almost never lose initiative to the Mystic Knight. You've got a funny way of calculating things.

Also, your argument about which spells the Battle Magus gets is irrelevant. If he really wants to take nothing but 1-5 invocations, it will hose him. He just has to be careful about how he does things.

By the end of round one, the BM is a colossal death dealing mega damage creature, because all he has to do is survive that long. I wasn't going to say this, because it's utter twinkery, so cheesy that it makes the previous stuff I was doing seem kind and nice by comparison.

Ready?

At the end of round one, with his three actions remaining, he renews whatever Armor Spell the Mystic Knight has spent all that time hacking down.

Time Slip.

Two actions now occur where he casts Fighting Spirit.

Which gives him two actions to cast Time Slip.

Which gives him two actions to cast Sorcerous Fury.

Hmm. 16 actions, colossal mega damage creature, so many bonuses that it doesn't matter what the MK does? Oh, yeah, and two free magic lightning bolts to get rid of the MK's armor if he needs to.

But he doesn't have hit points anymore, and the MK still does. Which means Mental Blast will rip the MK apart.

Sure. The BM will cry when the MK dies, but so what?

[TechnoGothic]

Go back and look at the parameters in the First Post on this thread. That is not what they have as equipment.

(snipped)

Sure. The BM will cry when the MK dies, but so what?

LOL.
good points.
BM for the win.

[Lenwen]

Great points Koshindan

[The Beast]

Dear everyone to whom the following applies,

When doing these Vs battles it is unfair to pull items, spells, powers, ect, from books outside of the Rifts line unless the OP allows it. Yes, I know the system is Megaversal, and there's a reason KS published the conversion books. However, not everyone has those books (the other lines, not the CBs). Also when posting these Vs battles in the Rifts forum and using specific OCCs/RCCs, one generally believes that the stuff the combatants get are from their main area (ie: WB8 characters would have things mostly found in Rifts Japan). While pulling stuff from the other lines isn't breaking any rules, it is breaking the spirit of the Vs battle (I think that's how I wanted to say that).

[Lenwen]

Dear everyone to whom the following applies,

When doing these Vs battles it is unfair to pull items, spells, powers, ect, from books outside of the Rifts line unless the OP allows it. Yes, I know the system is Megaversal, and there's a reason KS published the conversion books. However, not everyone has those books (the other lines, not the CBs). Also when posting these Vs battles in the Rifts forum and using specific OCCs/RCCs, one generally believes that the stuff the combatants get are from their main area (ie: WB8 characters would have things mostly found in Rifts Japan). While pulling stuff from the other lines isn't breaking any rules, it is breaking the spirit of the Vs battle (I think that's how I wanted to say that).

I see what your saying an if not for the aspect of being able to "rift" from one place on the planet to entirely another .. even before you lvl to lvl 2 ..

Makes me not agree with you on this train of thought. Tho it is a very legit point of view "The Beast".

Well said.

[Balabanto]

Go back and look at the parameters in the First Post on this thread. That is not what they have as equipment.

Plus Sharpshooting. Do you actually understand what this does for Mental Blast? That spell contains the word blast in it's name, which includes all sharpshooting and quickdraw init bonuses. You are not reading what these classes actually do. Plus, skill selection changes these numbers a lot. Skills the BM gets for free, the MK has to PAY for. That hurts a lot.

Now add Quickdraw on top of that. The Battle Magus will almost never lose initiative to the Mystic Knight. You've got a funny way of calculating things.

With the Battle Magus's OCC bonuses and Quick Draw(at the 24 PP stated), he only gets +5 initiative. The Mystic Knight gets +6 initiative from OCC bonuses alone. If you factor in Sixth Sense, he is far ahead of the BM.

73 hp = Average HP for 15th level battle magus.
17 hp = Average damage for Mental Blast.

I don't see how a BM could deal with Super Telekinesis anyways. In a single action, the knight can lift the enemy 1000 feet in the air and turn him around the remove his line of sight. The next action the knight would start a Mental Blast. The magus would have no choice by turn to rotate himself in midair(hard but physically possible for humans), taking an action in doing so. The knight would finish his Mental Blast. The magus can do whatever he wants, but there isn't really a single action move that will help him, because the Mystic Knight uses Super Telekinesis again to remove his line of sight and reset him to 1000 feet. The Magus will have about 73 hp, so it will take about 5 cycles to kill him. If the Knight doesn't have enough melee actions to finish him off before the Magus gets all his extra actions, he just needs to hold him in place until the next round.

Note: It takes about 7.9 seconds to fall 1000 feet, and given both characters absurd number of actions per melee, that's a good 8-10 actions.

Edit: Besides, Bio-Manipulation: Paralysis will completely defeat the magus and his terrible save vs psionic(14 or higher.) The only way he would be able to safely protect against this is with Invulnerability which is much less efficient than Super Telekinesis per time(20 isp/30 minutes versus 25 ppe/3.75 minutes), takes two actions to cast, and doesn't help against Telekinesis(no save.) The one from his Deathbringer does activate in a single action, but costs twice as much and only lasts two minutes.

What biomanipulation? First action is Deathbringer Sword activation, which grants +10 to all saves when it casts invulnerability. You can't assume that the Battle Magus will roll a 1.

Second, the Quick Draw Skill, The Battle Magus Class, the Quick-Draw Initiative class feature, and the initiative bonus feature from sharpshooting are ALL separate abilities. At PP 24, that's a colossally high number. I don't have my books in front of me, but I know it's higher than 6.

[Lenwen]

I do not know the exact amount (with out my books atm) but I do know that BM's can get crazy insane numbers for initiative. But I also know that the MK gets equally high amounts of Initiative bonases .. and unless this gets down to a hand to hand fight .. the MK is simply going to outclass the BM ..

[Lenwen]

For initiative, the BM gets +3 class bonus and +1 for every 3 PP above 16 for quick draw.

24 - 16 = 8
(8 / 3) - (8 % 3) = 2
2 + 3 = 5

The MK gets +3 off the bat and +1 at levels 5, 10, and 15. He also gets a possible 6 from Sixth Sense.

3 + 3 = 6
6 + 6 = 12

With the BM's poor save vs psionics, there's a very good chance that the MK will paralyze him before he's able to do anything. Even if he did get off invulnerability before the paralysis, he's still going to get TK'd into a spot where the MK just needs to wait out your spell.

Another comparison (not kindergarten addition this time, I promise.) With the PPE and ISP numbers Lenwen came up with...

286 PPE BM
278 PPE MK
179 ISP MK

Invulnerability : 3.75 minutes at 25 PPE, or 9 seconds/PPE
Invulnerability(TW) : 2 minutes at 50 PPE, or 2.4 second/PPE
Telekinesis(Super) : 30 minutes at 20 ISP, or 90 seconds/PPE
Telekinesis(Super, but you're carrying an inhuman amount of gear) : 30 minutes at 30 ISP, or 60 seconds/PPE

The BM could keep Invulnerability up, in a best case scenario, for 41.25 minutes. And that's with not using their sword's ability at all.

The MK can keep the BM tied up for, in a WORST case scenario, for two-n-half hours. And that's only if you're carry 50-100 lbs in gear, which would probably give you encumbrance penalties.

Two questions remain, what will the magus do when he has no protection spells, no energy to cast anything, is stranded a thousand feet in the air, AND is in range of not only the magus's energy weapons, but also his energy bolts; which he has full PPE to cast!

Koshindan

VERY .. well said ..

I knew the MK would own the BM, but this is just ridiculous .. how easy it would be for the MK to own him ..

[kaid]

The battle will never get that far. This is a one action battle, essentially. SOmeone will get simuled in the first attack, since neither can kill the other with one shot.
One person will get disabled and the other will slaughter them.

I think the battle will go on a little longer than that.

Nope. Not with two level 15s. There are too many spells that have no saving throw, and the new rules let you whip plenty of them in 1 attack, so you can simul with spells.
Anyone who simuls their enemy with a windrush spell wins any fight, as long as they can do enough damage to kill their enemy.
There are about a dozen ways, really.
Trust me, years ago I wrote a ton of missives on this forum about the use of magic in Rifts (it's why I was christened el magico), and that was BEFORE the Ultimate Edition rules powered up spell casters to fling spells at will in one attack.

First attack.
Any 15th level spell caster that simuls with the right spell wins.
End of line.

One question because I have not played recently with high level casters. When you simul attack both attacks go off at the same time correct? If so would not the likely outcome of this fight be both players laying on their backs like turtles most of the fight since any time they get up one attacks the other simuls and both get incapped again?

[Nekira Sudacne]

The battle will never get that far. This is a one action battle, essentially. SOmeone will get simuled in the first attack, since neither can kill the other with one shot.
One person will get disabled and the other will slaughter them.

I think the battle will go on a little longer than that.

Nope. Not with two level 15s. There are too many spells that have no saving throw, and the new rules let you whip plenty of them in 1 attack, so you can simul with spells.
Anyone who simuls their enemy with a windrush spell wins any fight, as long as they can do enough damage to kill their enemy.
There are about a dozen ways, really.
Trust me, years ago I wrote a ton of missives on this forum about the use of magic in Rifts (it's why I was christened el magico), and that was BEFORE the Ultimate Edition rules powered up spell casters to fling spells at will in one attack.

First attack.
Any 15th level spell caster that simuls with the right spell wins.
End of line.

One question because I have not played recently with high level casters. When you simul attack both attacks go off at the same time correct? If so would not the likely outcome of this fight be both players laying on their backs like turtles most of the fight since any time they get up one attacks the other simuls and both get incapped again?

it's a possibility.

[kaid]

I am curious and will have to do some looking when I get home. If the attacks are truly simultaneous and the effects happen at the same time it could lead to some hilarious mage kitten fights where it looks and sounds pretty scary but it winds up with both on their back not doing much.

[Lenwen]

Simo attack with Magic Net FTW!!!!

LMAO

Edit: As long as that's not being munchy.. lmao

[kaid]

Simo attack with Magic Net FTW!!!!

LMAO

Edit: As long as that's not being munchy.. lmao

I just checked the RUE and from the way it looks simul attacks appear to be a melee attack option not a ranged/magic option which sort of makes sense as it makes init a bit more useful.

Curious if this is clarified anywhere else officially.

[The Beast]

I think the real problem is that Palladium updated the magic rules without addressing how they effect simo attack now.