LLW or Shifter

[Khanibal]

LLW:
P.P.E. 3d6x10+10+P.E. attribute
Initial spells 3 each from levels 1-4 = 12
additional spells starting at level 2, 1 each level of the LLW's level or less.

Shifter [with supernatural link to god(dess) of magic]:
P.P.E. 2d6x10+10+P.E. [+1d6x10+40 for total of of 3d6x10+50+P.E.]
Initial spells predetermined list of 20 [8 total selected from levels 3-13]
additional spells from predetermined list select 2 each level (one must be protection or summoning) and one of the caster's level or less, for a total of 3 per level starting at level 2.

Seems like the "Master of Invocation Magic" gets the short end of the stick.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I prefer the Mystic Study class.

LLW and shifters don't mach up to it.

[Long Shadow]

The advantage for the LLW in the Shifter shown is that the LLW is their own person. For the supernatural link to a God of Magic, the Shifter is answerable now to a powerful master. Displease your master and the advantage is gone...bye, bye additional powers and spell selection.

Also one thing I have seen players under-estimate about the LLW is the simple ability to detect ley-lines. Shifter don't have it and if it during the day or somewhere where ley-lines are not visible during the day, most magic users cannot simply find that extra PPE to bolster their spell casting without a map. And pulling double the normal PPE from a ley-line is pretty advantageous to any master of magic.

[Khanibal]

The same can be said for a Priest of Light.
My main complaint is that linking to a powerful force should (as a class feature) bring the shifter in-line with the LLW, not alllow him to surpass one.

[londonbaz]

[quote="Khanibal"]LLW:
P.P.E. 3d6x10+10+P.E. attribute
Initial spells 3 each from levels 1-4 = 12
additional spells starting at level 2, 1 each level of the LLW's level or less.
[quote]

I have been meaning to ask about this. From my reading of the RUE they get this spell and a rifts related one if they spend time meditating at a ley line. Am I wrong about this? I have read the relevant entry a dozen times in the last few weeks and can't see why people keep saying that LLWs only get 1 spell a level...

[Khanibal]

You're correct they can learn one additional rifts spell per level from ley line meditation. However, this is an active process as opposed to the spell they get just for leveling.

[londonbaz]

Thanks

[Khanibal]

Hmm...
A demigod gets a natural ability and an O.C.C.
So you could be a L.L.W. and have the abilities of a shifter also.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmm...
A demigod gets a natural ability and an O.C.C.
So you could be a L.L.W. and have the abilities of a shifter also.

Yes.

although given that they use the same form of magic, and learn all spells of their level every level, it'd be pointless to double up like that. Pick shifter then a rarer type of magic for your OCC.

[Khanibal]

Just picked up the "Best of Rifter". I like the Ludicrous Mage. It's the kind of character that I'd like to play, if those lousy NPC's didn't mess everything up by making me angry, and forcing me to kill them.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I prefer the shifter because they are more specialized. The ley line walker is the jack of all trades.. They are not as good at somethings, but can do everything.

Also your taking a level 1 shifter and giving him a link right away, which should not ever happen....

Why not? every game i've ever seen run gives them links at level one, that's why it's there.

Your comparing a shifter linked to the god of magic to the LLW when comparing magic base at level one (when this should happen before level 3-5 anyway.) In reality, LLW's generally have more PPE than shifters... This is especially true at first level.

Although I agree that doing so makes gauging general shifter power hard.

Another advantage LLW's have over shifters is the general acceptance. Mages might be disliked in general, but shifters are hated everywhere....

Okay. Where did you ever get that mages are disliked in general? or that Shifters are hated? Never says that anywhere. Don't confuse your campaigns' themes with canon.

Another advantage is you can have a LLW that legitimately isnt evil. Sure you CAN be a shifter, but you wouldnt use half your abilities and most likely would end up evil in the end anyway. I sure as heck did lol.

You can have a shifter that's not evil. having access to power dosn't force you to use it in morally questionable ways.

I've played a shifter that never used familiars, supernatural or mundane, and never linked to a god. I simply used them for their dimensional spells.

[Khanibal]

Went with High Magus.

[GaredBattlespike]

It depends for me:
The LLW has always had a place in my heart, and the HUGE choice in Spells to choose from is amazing! Still, I know that the LLW's "Special Abilities" are copied by at least half a dozen other OCC's/RCC's.

The Shifter has the allure of mystery to me, as I have never played one, but may do so one day. I think I may play one if A) It's a 1-on-1 game, just me and the GM. It'd be interesting to just go and see the Megaverse w/o dragging along a group of others-just me & my Familiar! or B) If the party already has a LLW or Wizard.

[Danger]

LLW have always needed some help. Were I to run a game, I would multiply their Ley Line Powers by a factor of 10 while on a ley line, and let them have them as written when not.

Edit: I'd probably grant them an additional spell per level than what is written. Or some other adjustment to put them on par with the Shifter.

Don't get me started on the Mystic.

[Danger]

That is a really munchkin way to go about it. For one, you dont even get to role play it out. Second, your linking to a being before you have even played the character and hashed out truely his personality which is a tragedy imo

TBH If your group is really strong and you want to do that, go for it, but it is by no means the norm.

You can roleplay the aquiring of a link in the first session(always how I played it). And Rifts is a munchkin-system. "Dragons-as-PCs".

If the GM and/or players are munchkins I see no problem with this. Otherwise, I'm with Karsus on this one. Simply because Rifts can be a munchkin game doesn't mean it must be. That's a "The gun is loaded so I must pull the trigger" argument, imo.

How is it "not in the nature of the shifter to be good"? Where is this stated? DB7 lists "Gods of Light" are an option to link with.

Shifters have a bad reputation (as demon-summoning demon pawns) for a reason. Good Shifters are possible, but they'd have to fight to overcome the rep.

[Danger]

Ley Line Walkers get their own Special Abilities...ala Ley Line Communication/Rejuvenation, Observation Balls, etc.

Most of which are lame, and only work on Ley Lines.

Shifters can Dimensional Teleport Home.

And get extra "Shifter" spells per level. And can have a pact with a Supernatural Being for even more power.

Ley Line Walkers are Individuals.

Shifters are beholden to a Higher Power.

Only if the Shifter chooses to do so. He doesn't have to, and is still a better caster than the Ley Line Walker without it. Also, they're only as beholden as the GM makes them.

Ley Line Walkers have no bad stigma attached to them.

In game, no. Out of game, they have a stigma of being crap.

Shifters are notorious for being evil.

Which most players either don't care about, don't role-play, and ignore. Most GMs are just as guilty of these things.

If you are comparing the classes because of the stats...that seems like a Role-Playing fail to me.

In some ways that's true, but there is always going to be class comparisons no matter what genre or game system you're talking about. Not to mention that player enjoyment is a large factor of gaming. You simply can't have the following scenario:

GM: "Okay, I've got an idea for a new campaign. Everyone will be playing turd farmers."

Player: "Uh, I'd really rather play a Ranger...?"

GM: "You'll play a turd farmer and like it!!!"

If you're playing a Rifts game with a PC Glitterboy and a PC Vagabond, the Vagabond is going to notice sooner or later.

[Starmage21]

If you're playing a Rifts game with a PC Glitterboy and a PC Vagabond, the Vagabond is going to notice sooner or later.

I love having a vagabond in a party of "frakkin monsters". I've got one player that loves playing them, but only if someone else is playing a military OCC(not sure why).

because it's good to know that you can play your role(a skillmonkey vagabond), and not get dead for it because there is someone there to cover your ass.

[Mouser13]

Just me if you ever played a shifter at the start they suck. I would much prefer to play a low-level leyline walker.

Getting to pick from 1-4 at the start is huge.

[Grinning Demon]

I agree with the OP, I have a PC in the group who made a Shifter with said link to the supernatural (god of Magic of course) and I thought there's really no incentive to actually play a LLW over a Shifter other maybe flavor of the O.C.C.

To make the LLW a viable option I gave them all level 1 invocations and allow them to pick one spell from each level from 2 thu 9 (in addition to their starting spells) That's right, 1 spell from each level from 2 thru 9 starting at first level. I don't think this is overpowered (if anything it brings them up to power) because it represents the classic LLW as "masters of magic." KS mentions in Book of Magic on p.13 that he usually lets LLW pick one or two extra spells from levels 1-3 early on (i.e before the first adventure). I basically took this idea and upgraded it to make it on par with what other magic users like Shifter, TW, LLR start with.

I generally will tell players the only restriction on selecting the spells would be they have to be central to your character concept. Your guy hates the undead? Pick spells like Lifeblast, Desiccate the Supernatural, etc. I had a player make a "battle mage" type LLW and with the spells he chose (Lightblade, Magic Adrenal Rush, Spnning Blades) he was more bad ass (to me) than a Battle Magus! YMMV

[Grandil]

Shifter. Link to the Jade Emperor. Get spells from Mystic China. 1. Ride the Yin Tiger., 2. Spit Dragon Pearl
3-8. Any Animus spell. You have a Good Shifter thats on his way to get a new Class-Tao Shih. Yeah
yeah everyone ignore the Munchkin. THASS OK...........

[Grandil]

Other advantage of shifters over LLWs, summoned minions. Once you get a fairly decent selection you have got yourself a very flexable character, need a lift, summon a air elemental, ticked at that last village for not making you their king, summon a fire elemental or demon and village is toast (thus the bad rep shifters get), need to bring a teammate back from the dead, air elemental, possibly others.

How would ya do that? can an air elemental Do that? If they can-Kick butt!

[Grandil]

Other advantage of shifters over LLWs, summoned minions. Once you get a fairly decent selection you have got yourself a very flexable character, need a lift, summon a air elemental, ticked at that last village for not making you their king, summon a fire elemental or demon and village is toast (thus the bad rep shifters get), need to bring a teammate back from the dead, air elemental, possibly others.

How would ya do that? can an air elemental Do that? If they can-Kick butt!

Of course you need to be able to control a major one, but, Major Air Elementals cast ALL Air Elemental Magic at level 10 (10x range also)

Level 5 Air Elemental spell "Breath of Life", true a one shot 80% chance of working, but if he is dead....

It can also summon 1-4 minor, plus many miny ones.

It can carry your group, invisibly long distances.

Cast Tornado spells galore with a 100' diameter 6000' away.

Air elementals kick butt for sure, I am still wondering why Tolkeen lost :)

Literary License........

[Grandil]

quote] Literary License........

Ahhh, that dreaded being! I am sure it had to go down that way, or the CS morale would be in the toilet. Also it would encourage attacks on the CS from the FoM.

I would call it a focal point in the timeline.

Yeah, I did an alternate-campaign around the time that series came out. We called it "The Siege On Chi-Town".[/quote]
My sentiments exactly, I feel that the cs would have gotten the butts wiped, & just because
of 2 spells-Invulnerability, & Impervious to energy; but NOOOOOO.

[Grandil]

I came up with my own Master of Magic O.C.C. Basically a LLW with alot more spells available.
Someday I'll Pdf it-Money seems to be the prb.

[Sir_Spirit]

Shifters have a bad reputation (as demon-summoning demon pawns) for a reason. Good Shifters are possible, but they'd have to fight to overcome the rep.

Or you could just claim your a generic wizard/mage/sorcerer, perhaps that you cam from another world without as much magic.
IF any did sense yoiur ties to a higherpower you could claim that most mages do that on your world cuz magic is weak and the gods/powers are good/nicea nd at war with "evil powers" that you were helping them fight[so the gods/good powers helping you helped them out]. In fact actually being a refugee from, say, Wormwood isn't unbelievable, especialy in Lazlo/Tolkeen).

[Mouser13]

I think the shifter is the better option if you can get it.

The last 3 GM that had a shifter none of them could start with it and not a single one had one by level 3.

[dragonfett]

A Shifter can only hope they successfully link to a God of Magic and not a demon of God of Darkness just masquerading as a God of Magic. I think that is one of the big reasons Shifters are as feared as they are is because no one, including the Shifter themselves, can be 100% sure that the supposed "God of Magic" is really who/what they say they are.

[X'Zanthar]

A Shifter can only hope they successfully link to a God of Magic and not a demon of God of Darkness just masquerading as a God of Magic. I think that is one of the big reasons Shifters are as feared as they are is because no one, including the Shifter themselves, can be 100% sure that the supposed "God of Magic" is really who/what they say they are.

Yes, in my opinion, it is a thing that really should be developed in-game, not have it set at the start. But going that way you should also give the player a greater "bonus". That could be information, aid, etc. Of course it still assumes you linked to what you think you did.

In our games, we have run across "gods" who have said they are so and so, one we suspected is Thoth, but he is such a complex god who knows. I do not know of any shifter (pc or npc) in the game who has advertised that he/she is linked to something. I mean, who would, it is kind of like giving out secret info that could be used against you such as telling light worshippers you aid the forces of darkness.

[Grandil]

A Shifter can only hope they successfully link to a God of Magic and not a demon of God of Darkness just masquerading as a God of Magic. I think that is one of the big reasons Shifters are as feared as they are is because no one, including the Shifter themselves, can be 100% sure that the supposed "God of Magic" is really who/what they say they are.

Yes, in my opinion, it is a thing that really should be developed in-game, not have it set at the start. But going that way you should also give the player a greater "bonus". That could be information, aid, etc. Of course it still assumes you linked to what you think you did.

In our games, we have run across "gods" who have said they are so and so, one we suspected is Thoth, but he is such a complex god who knows. I do not know of any shifter (pc or npc) in the game who has advertised that he/she is linked to something. I mean, who would, it is kind of like giving out secret info that could be used against you such as telling light worshippers you aid the forces of darkness.

The problem wid dis is Anyone can get Lore: Religion, & pick the pantheon of a particular god,
assess the personality of the god, & deduce, deduce, & not aaasssss u me! in the example
I gave above with the Jade Emperor I actually had to think it through: 1. get ahold of a
Celestial bureaucracy. 2. Make the "Call". & 3. there are certain ways to get ahold of a god like
this-Ritual de lo Habitual, & research, 4. actually Talk to him, or maybe one of his concubines/
Jade/Empress. personality alway shines through-esp. wid Gawds! They tend to have Larger than
life personalities, & A good old sense evil will get dat outta da wayd!

[dragonfett]

Even having Lore: Religion isn't a fool proof fail safe because the person could fail (or even critically fail) their roll, or they could be deceived by a god (or demon) who can change their appearances.

[GaredBattlespike]

Greetings!
I recently got into a new Campaign and am playing the Party's Mage: A LLW! My spells have been quite useful so far, and I can even use them! Take a look at the PPE cost of the Shifter's more "interesting". (read Powerful/High Level) Spells and then look at the Shifter's PPE. Even with a Link to a G*d of Magic, how manny Shifters can actually cast Dimensional Portal? Especially at low level, and with little chance of detecting Ley Lines/ Nexus Points? I'd like to see them try to cast a big time Spell. Even if the Shifter could cast a High Level Spell, He/she will be soooo drained of PPE, that the Shifter is up a creek w/o a paddle if he/she needed to cast anything right away after casting a High Level Spell!

My Vote is Ley Line Walker!
1) Can actually Cast every Spell he starts with.
2) Has the ability to sense Ley Lines.
3) The ability to use the Power Boosts from Ley Lines/Nexus Points(Added PPE, LL Forcefield, Double or Triple Damage).
4) Can Learn darn near ANY type of Spell!
5) No worries about getting "Linked" to an Evil Power.

Thanks and Good Gaming,
GaredBattlespike

[jarlaxle]

The advantage for the LLW in the Shifter shown is that the LLW is their own person. For the supernatural link to a God of Magic, the Shifter is answerable now to a powerful master. Displease your master and the advantage is gone...bye, bye additional powers and spell selection.

Also one thing I have seen players under-estimate about the LLW is the simple ability to detect ley-lines. Shifter don't have it and if it during the day or somewhere where ley-lines are not visible during the day, most magic users cannot simply find that extra PPE to bolster their spell casting without a map. And pulling double the normal PPE from a ley-line is pretty advantageous to any master of magic.

Shifters can sense ley lines they however are short on observation ball, rejuvination and a couple others but the have sensing phasing and their sense rift is larger area.

[Grandil]

Greetings!
I recently got into a new Campaign and am playing the Party's Mage: A LLW! My spells have been quite useful so far, and I can even use them! Take a look at the PPE cost of the Shifter's more "interesting". (read Powerful/High Level) Spells and then look at the Shifter's PPE. Even with a Link to a G*d of Magic, how manny Shifters can actually cast Dimensional Portal? Especially at low level, and with little chance of detecting Ley Lines/ Nexus Points? I'd like to see them try to cast a big time Spell. Even if the Shifter could cast a High Level Spell, He/she will be soooo drained of PPE, that the Shifter is up a creek w/o a paddle if he/she needed to cast anything right away after casting a High Level Spell!

My Vote is Ley Line Walker!
1) Can actually Cast every Spell he starts with.
2) Has the ability to sense Ley Lines.
3) The ability to use the Power Boosts from Ley Lines/Nexus Points(Added PPE, LL Forcefield, Double or Triple Damage).
4) Can Learn darn near ANY type of Spell!
5) No worries about getting "Linked" to an Evil Power.

Thanks and Good Gaming,
GaredBattlespike

If ya look at the second list of spells under the Shifter, one is Energy Sphere.

[jarlaxle]

As a level one shifter in new game right now 1 session in. Shifters offensive spell damage. 1d6 mdc call lightening or 4d6 sdc energy bolt. I have no link to supernatural and those of you that feel it is a starting option and your GM allows it smack em upside the head for me. The only time those should be allowed at creation is a new pc starting at level 1 in a high level group.

I want to link to a dark god so at lvl 3 i can have a demon servant for live
With supernatural minions the Shifter can also siphon their PPE and if the meditate their largest PPE expendatures ar cut in half!

The shifter is a focused specialist. The LLW is much more broad you can make a fighter out of one a lot easier.

Yes the shifter can buy/learn spells outside list as per the LLW but they are less likely, The Shifter is supposed to be travelling if not then summoning but most people dont read or stick to the quidelines. Its their calling in life.

Dont forget about Tolkeen artifact hunter(megaverse builder) and the 2 other shifter specializations available at lvl 3 traveler(good shifter) and seneshal(evil stereotypical shifter) rifter 15 p 88

Most of you are looking at this from combat points of view. In a group the Shifter isn't the fighter or battle mage,

and when going gets tough the shifter(Cuz all us shifters are evil) pull a Cartman "Screw you guys i'm goin home" dimensional teleport home 75 PPE

[Hot Rod]

LLW:
P.P.E. 3d6x10+10+P.E. attribute
Initial spells 3 each from levels 1-4 = 12
additional spells starting at level 2, 1 each level of the LLW's level or less.

Shifter [with supernatural link to god(dess) of magic]:
P.P.E. 2d6x10+10+P.E. [+1d6x10+40 for total of of 3d6x10+50+P.E.]
Initial spells predetermined list of 20 [8 total selected from levels 3-13]
additional spells from predetermined list select 2 each level (one must be protection or summoning) and one of the caster's level or less, for a total of 3 per level starting at level 2.

Seems like the "Master of Invocation Magic" gets the short end of the stick.

Having played many LLW I tend to agree, though the whole 'dark god/demon lord pretends to be otherwise' seems overused to punish the player for choosing to allow the GM control of a basic aspect of the character. The whole 'negotiation' step seems to be skipped, and why would a demon lord want my "Magic fanatic" seeker of secrets as a contractor? What he offers isn't what I want (spell knowlege), what I offer isn't what he wants (ok, occasionally some useful tidbit might be learned), & I certainly won't respect the minions he sends me, how does it make sense?

I've seen the shifter class redone twice in the main books, (and a couple of times in Rifter), Palladium seems to feel it needed to be more powerful to get people to play it (and added the 1/2 shifter the LLR as well, same PPE, better spells than LLW). Now, I think it is on par with most of the newer books, LLW is still the same old non-power creeped class as always.

& there is no way to detect the SN link, the aura only reflects a possessing entity
Can cast every spell he starts with just as well as the LLW. (Some of his options are just better and require more preperation, and he'll get 500 PPE to cast dim. gateway long before the LLW will get 1000 PPE to cast the same)

But I still like the LLW better

[jarlaxle]

LLW:
P.P.E. 3d6x10+10+P.E. attribute
Initial spells 3 each from levels 1-4 = 12
additional spells starting at level 2, 1 each level of the LLW's level or less.

Shifter [with supernatural link to god(dess) of magic]:
P.P.E. 2d6x10+10+P.E. [+1d6x10+40 for total of of 3d6x10+50+P.E.]
Initial spells predetermined list of 20 [8 total selected from levels 3-13]
additional spells from predetermined list select 2 each level (one must be protection or summoning) and one of the caster's level or less, for a total of 3 per level starting at level 2.

Seems like the "Master of Invocation Magic" gets the short end of the stick.

Having played many LLW I tend to agree, though the whole 'dark god/demon lord pretends to be otherwise' seems overused to punish the player for choosing to allow the GM control of a basic aspect of the character. The whole 'negotiation' step seems to be skipped, and why would a demon lord want my "Magic fanatic" seeker of secrets as a contractor? What he offers isn't what I want (spell knowlege), what I offer isn't what he wants (ok, occasionally some useful tidbit might be learned), & I certainly won't respect the minions he sends me, how does it make sense?

I've seen the shifter class redone twice in the main books, (and a couple of times in Rifter), Palladium seems to feel it needed to be more powerful to get people to play it (and added the 1/2 shifter the LLR as well, same PPE, better spells than LLW). Now, I think it is on par with most of the newer books, LLW is still the same old non-power creeped class as always.

& there is no way to detect the SN link, the aura only reflects a possessing entity
Can cast every spell he starts with just as well as the LLW. (Some of his options are just better and require more preperation, and he'll get 500 PPE to cast dim. gateway long before the LLW will get 1000 PPE to cast the same)

But I still like the LLW better

Its also the fact that i made my shifter more of a scholor figure too. h-h basic, skills reflect travel more then battle.

[jarlaxle]

to be totally honest though before any of you take one or the other way on my opinion i find the LLW too open for my self im scattered in spells smattered here and there based off of past problem. The shifter is forcing a forward focus which draw me further into my character

[Grandil]

to be totally honest though before any of you take one or the other way on my opinion i find the LLW too open for my self im scattered in spells smattered here and there based off of past problem. The shifter is forcing a forward focus which draw me further into my character

SO you like the shifter better? I think this one's a bit obvious.......Thanks Jarlaxle!

[Grandil]

LLW:
P.P.E. 3d6x10+10+P.E. attribute
Initial spells 3 each from levels 1-4 = 12
additional spells starting at level 2, 1 each level of the LLW's level or less.

Shifter [with supernatural link to god(dess) of magic]:
P.P.E. 2d6x10+10+P.E. [+1d6x10+40 for total of of 3d6x10+50+P.E.]
Initial spells predetermined list of 20 [8 total selected from levels 3-13]
additional spells from predetermined list select 2 each level (one must be protection or summoning) and one of the caster's level or less, for a total of 3 per level starting at level 2.

Seems like the "Master of Invocation Magic" gets the short end of the stick.

Having played many LLW I tend to agree, though the whole 'dark god/demon lord pretends to be otherwise' seems overused to punish the player for choosing to allow the GM control of a basic aspect of the character. The whole 'negotiation' step seems to be skipped, and why would a demon lord want my "Magic fanatic" seeker of secrets as a contractor? What he offers isn't what I want (spell knowlege), what I offer isn't what he wants (ok, occasionally some useful tidbit might be learned), & I certainly won't respect the minions he sends me, how does it make sense?

I've seen the shifter class redone twice in the main books, (and a couple of times in Rifter), Palladium seems to feel it needed to be more powerful to get people to play it (and added the 1/2 shifter the LLR as well, same PPE, better spells than LLW). Now, I think it is on par with most of the newer books, LLW is still the same old non-power creeped class as always.

& there is no way to detect the SN link, the aura only reflects a possessing entity
Can cast every spell he starts with just as well as the LLW. (Some of his options are just better and require more preperation, and he'll get 500 PPE to cast dim. gateway long before the LLW will get 1000 PPE to cast the same)

But I still like the LLW better

Its also the fact that i made my shifter more of a scholor figure too. h-h basic, skills reflect travel more then battle.

Rifter 14 has The Traveller Shifter, & there is the Tolkeen Artifact Hunter from Dimension Builder-
look 'em up!

[Grandil]

That being said, Above^, Never had the chance to play either, I have played a combo-
Shifter/Seneschal Shifter; I figured I'd get twice as many Minions as usual. Still had about 5 or 6
Minions, though.

[jarlaxle]

That being said, Above^, Never had the chance to play either, I have played a combo-
Shifter/Seneschal Shifter; I figured I'd get twice as many Minions as usual. Still had about 5 or 6
Minions, though.

at first i thought i liked the specializations traveler and sensschal but lose 2 levels and a lot of ppe

[Grandil]

That being said, Above^, Never had the chance to play either, I have played a combo-
Shifter/Seneschal Shifter; I figured I'd get twice as many Minions as usual. Still had about 5 or 6
Minions, though.

at first i thought i liked the specializations traveler and sensschal but lose 2 levels and a lot of ppe

I still have that char; Shes a real big one at that. I didn't let her lose those lvls, I didn't
understand how that worked, as it is; She's a Gawd anyway, now at least.

[Malleable]

Like others have said, as a Shifter a big chunk of your power comes from making a Pact. You are weaker than a LLW without one. Make one and you arguably are more powerful. But you are now that higher powers *****. Do what it says or you lose it. My GM has gotten plenty of use out of this mechanic with other players aligned with Gods.

And in my experience aligning with good gets you less power than aligning with evil entities. If you work for a greater demon you have no issues summoning demons and telling them what to do. They have MUCH less chance turning on you if they know you are serving their master. They are evil, and the idea of coercion is just something they have to accept if the big guy downstairs is telling you what to do.

But when aligning with good or neutral beings you can't just go around coercing good/neutral beings because you work for their boss. Thats an evil act (IMO) and whether you are working for a higher up or not, you are doing something that they and their boss is going to get pissed. Turn on you or cut you off.
So they it comes down to making friends or deals - which cost you something (up to the GM most the time).

And with the evil dudes you aren't making deals or friends with what you are summoning, so less sacrifice, but the big dude downstairs is going to use you in the same way, which will cost more than what the good guys upstairs tend to demand. But you still have the power.

All in all, its kinda a wash, and depends on your playstyle. Sometimes I feel like I need total independence and go LLW, other times I like the intricacy and plot hooks that shifters bring to the table.

Mal

[Tor]

I used to think LLW was king, but upon looking closer, Shifters were always king, and RUE giving them minion-domination and dimensional powers only made them more king. Walkers just got some silly inefficient forcefield. You just know everyone is going to play those cool new insane Rifters instead.