deployment time on GB/Boom Gun pylons?

[Mack]

You're GM is imagining things. While the pylon deployment time is a bit ambigious, there has never been a 15 second setup time.

[The Galactus Kid]

You're GM is imagining things. While the pylon deployment time is a bit ambigious, there has never been a 15 second setup time.

Agreed. It doesn't exist. It has been stated by Kevin that it is instantaneous right before the gun is fired. Of course, there are some of us on here who also say that that it takes a melee action to deploy and retract the pylons, and many others who say that it is only an action to retract etc.

[Jorel]

I think if it doesn't use an attack/action first the PC should have a minus to strike on the first shot because the downward force of the pylon would create some force directed in the opposite direction (up) thereby creating instability in the first moments of the pylon being deployed. The GB would actually lift up from the resistance given by the terrain it is standing on.

[The Galactus Kid]

I think if it doesn't use an attack/action first the PC should have a minus to strike on the first shot because the downward force of the pylon would create some force directed in the opposite direction (up) thereby creating instability in the first moments of the pylon being deployed. The GB would actually lift up from the resistance given by the terrain it is standing on.

But there isn't an resistance. The laser drill vaporizes what is below it instantly so there would be no lift.

[Jorel]

I think if it doesn't use an attack/action first the PC should have a minus to strike on the first shot because the downward force of the pylon would create some force directed in the opposite direction (up) thereby creating instability in the first moments of the pylon being deployed. The GB would actually lift up from the resistance given by the terrain it is standing on.

But there isn't an resistance. The laser drill vaporizes what is below it instantly so there would be no lift.

Are there rules somewhere for using the pylons on loose terrain like sand or really spongy plantlike terrain?

[runebeo]

Our group plays that it takes no action to deploy the pylons only an action to retract. This helps in game so our Glitter Boy don't steal the show every-time but she still gets around 70% kills even with the odd loss of an action or two every few rounds. Our other PCs are powerful as well but usually deal only a third of the damage of a Boomgun. Most importantly this small house rule weakness has come in very handy when dealing with enemy GBs. Its not a big deal most of the time, once a GB setup he rarely needs to reposition and with the extreme range & firepower of the Boomgun most things die within a few rounds.

[Zer0 Kay]

You're GM is imagining things. While the pylon deployment time is a bit ambigious, there has never been a 15 second setup time.

Agreed. It doesn't exist. It has been stated by Kevin that it is instantaneous right before the gun is fired. Of course, there are some of us on here who also say that that it takes a melee action to deploy and retract the pylons, and many others who say that it is only an action to retract etc.

Ahhhhhh watch out Dog of War will come and argue that they deploy after the gun is fired!

[Zer0 Kay]

I think if it doesn't use an attack/action first the PC should have a minus to strike on the first shot because the downward force of the pylon would create some force directed in the opposite direction (up) thereby creating instability in the first moments of the pylon being deployed. The GB would actually lift up from the resistance given by the terrain it is standing on.

But there isn't an resistance. The laser drill vaporizes what is below it instantly so there would be no lift.

At the same time many munchkins (me included) keep trying to make it so that you could say, do a kick to someones chest and engage the things and completely impale the target or remove them from an old GB and along with a power pack use it as a weapon that will breach armor quickly instead of having to wait for the 1/2 MD or whatever the rule is to be knocked off. So there is also the non-canon info going around, IIRC, that the things only do 1 MD. If they do then how do they get through ship or tank hulls when a GB fires on them? I agree that they wouldn't lift the GB just like a cement drill on cement doesn't lift a person. I think they act just like it says its supposed to the trigger is pulled and the drill is deployed it starts drilling and gets down as far as possible before the gun is fired. Depending on the material it will get varying depths. In softer material it would have to go to full extension just to get enough purchase but on super dense MD material, maybe, it only needs to be in a few inches to keep the GB from being nocked down. Does it say anywhere that the drill always fully extends before firing or do we just assume that because the picture states "full extension"? When full extension could be read as either "this is how far it always goes" or "this is how far it can go."

[The Galactus Kid]

If they do then how do they get through ship or tank hulls when a GB fires on them?

Read the description of structural S.D.C. There is an example of someone shooting a door with a machine gun. The doors full S.D.C. isn't depleted, but there are holes that you can look through etc.

[Zer0 Kay]

If they do then how do they get through ship or tank hulls when a GB fires on them?

Read the description of structural S.D.C. There is an example of someone shooting a door with a machine gun. The doors full S.D.C. isn't depleted, but there are holes that you can look through etc.

That is fine and dandy but if you put a hole through a MDC giant robot the armor is technically breached and so many things can now be done. And what are the rules for breaching armor? So unless it is breached there are no holes to look through.

Hey dead fenris, thats in the RUE isn't it? Yeah don't read much of that, but thanks for the reference.

So according to that then GK it is going to take a lot of "activations" for you to break the armor and take purchase... unless it only needs a couple inches into an MDC object to allow purchase.

[Zer0 Kay]

According to the illustration of the laser pylons it clearly states that if the pylons are not planted the gun will not fire. This is just an inherent weakness of the GB. If it is standing on the front of a tank as someone earlier suggested, the drills are not going to blow through the armor of that vehicle. Thus the gun is not going to fire. Much of the planet is SDC earth. The Glitter Boy has no trouble digging in there, but if for some reason someone has an MDC road the GB may be SOL. Even worse, on Wormwood, where the ground is MD.

Now after throwing out this opinion, the same illustration also clearly states that the pylons and jets fire at the same moment as the trigger is pulled suggesting no additional attacks for planting or retracting. I hope this helps. The Illustration is on page 73 of the RUE, a larger, and for this case better copy of the image is in the original base on page 222.

Your right it clearly states "planted". It does not define this as full extension. Here I'll try to give example with modern materials. If you put a stick into sand and push it back it will have to be deeper down to resist the force than it would be in dirt or rock and if it is in a hole in steel you really don't have to worry about the stick being pushed back. So full extension is required to keep the GB from flying back 30 feet if it is standing on soft earth it could receive the same leverage with them partially deployed but only be planted just a couple inches into steel.

The illustration does say that but remember it is an electronic gun and that means that pulling the trigger doesn't necessarily mean that as soon as it is depressed that the gun fires. All the trigger does is close a circuit and IF need be it could be hours till a shot is fired. I strongly doubt that but I'm just saying that so many people expect that because it says when the trigger is pulled that it means seconds before the round leaves the barrel. So though it could suggest what you are inferring it really suggests nothing.

So even though the pylons only do 1d4 MD I think I will now opperate that 1 MD into any material will be a sufficiently deep hole to offer enough leverage and purchase for the GB to remain upright. As hypothosized earlier in game terms a 1MD hole through SDC sand will likely provide as much leverage, stability and offer enough purchse for the pylons as a 1MD hole into a MDC tank hull even though it didn't breach the hull. In the end it is simply that the pylon doesn't have to be as deep in a solid more dense tougher material as it does in loose granular material.

You know the "original base" book is refered to as the RMB?

[Zer0 Kay]

The UE and original core book both give rules for firing the Boom Gun without pylons or thrusters. The pilot can choose to disable either or both systems before firing, much in the same way as they can adjust and fire the thrusters to assist in jumping or underwater.

Where does it say that? Others argue that the throwback distance is simply an example. Others that it is there if the ground is too loose and yet others that it is if they are damaged. All of those parties think that if the pylons aren't deployed that it won't work. I'm in the they can be disabled group. Then again I'm also in the if a SAMAS comes too close the GB can do the thruster assisted leap and try to put their feet on the SAMAS and then fire the gun at it. Try dodging the shot then SAMAS... could dodge the leap "kick" but there pretty stuck for the shot.

[Danger]

It's instantaneous.

[Mack]

Increasingly, I find myself thinking that the thrusters alone are sufficient to counter the Boom Gun, and the pylons don't exist. Much simpler that way.

[Zer0 Kay]

It's instantaneous.

So even if someone can travel at the speed of light they'll get impaled because the spikes already deployed? It doesn't say it fires instantly after the trigger is pulled... does it?

[Zer0 Kay]

Increasingly, I find myself thinking that the thrusters alone are sufficient to counter the Boom Gun, and the pylons don't exist. Much simpler that way.

I lean this way myself, but as I was explaining elsewhere, you could use a bit of trickery with how the brain perceives time.

If you had a light switch in your house, and the light came on like 200 nanoseconds after you flip it, were you to change the delay between hitting it > the light coming on, it would appear that the light came on before you hit the switch til you adjusted.

I argue that IF pylons are used, it would be trivial to do this in a suit of power armor, which already requires advanced feedback systems.

You know, I agree with you to a point. If the delay between pulling the trigger and the gun firing is so long that it is definately perceptable by you and anyone viewing it wouldn't happen as you describe it. There is a length of time that is impossible to ignore and I'd think it would be more than 1 second but less than 3. For example lets use a video game no one no matter how long they've played it things that the time between pulling the trigger and the Spartan Laser (tm) (c) is none. So even if you reduced the warm up time by half they aren't going to think that it went off before you pulled the trigger. They'll just think... "awesome a quick firing Spartan Laser (tm) (c) (yeah their going to think the trade mark and copy right symbol... because if they didn't they'd be sued for their thoughts ).

So though they pylon deploys immediately after the trigger is pulled if the BG won't deploy until the pylon is fully extended (which I don't believe it does, as stated above) it would take a few deployment/actions before it reached that length on a ships hull or other high MDC body. Though it is "instantanly" deployed I think it takes an action, it just coincides with the firing of the gun in most cases. Which makes it even funnier because then that would make it super fast drilling for a person with many attacks and slow for someone with few... if it actually takes the entire time between their actions to deploy and reset. The other, slightly more logical, view is; that it should reset just as fast as it deployed, but then why wouldn't it try multiple times to go to full extension when the trigger is pulled? Why does it only do 1d4MD per deployment then? Does it require a cool down time? Which then goes back to the sillyness this cool down time is then faster for people with many attacks than it is for those with few. So both versions are silly and the rules really only support that through a more dense material less depth is needed to provide the GB with sufficient stabalization.

[keir451]

Deployment and retraction times are both instantaneous, and it is possible to deploy them thru the armor of a tank. Just realize that the MDC value of a square inch of MD armor is no more than 1 MD. Yes it may be several inches thick, but each layer is at the same value as the one before it. Kevin himself states that the pylons can deploy even thru megacrete (MD concrete).

[Lord_Dalgard]

Chello!

Increasingly, I find myself thinking that the thrusters alone are sufficient to counter the Boom Gun, and the pylons don't exist. Much simpler that way.

Or the pylons do exist, but they're a fine example of a redundant system...something to be uses if your thrusters are damaged, out-of-synch, or otherwise not functioning properly.

On a side note, In 20 years of RIFTS, I've never had anyone play a Glitter Boy. Odd, huh?

Tony

[Zer0 Kay]

Deployment and retraction times are both instantaneous, and it is possible to deploy them thru the armor of a tank. Just realize that the MDC value of a square inch of MD armor is no more than 1 MD. Yes it may be several inches thick, but each layer is at the same value as the one before it. Kevin himself states that the pylons can deploy even thru megacrete (MD concrete).

True nuff went through several armors summing all MDC and dividing result by the area HxWxD in inches. Not one went above 2MDC most being below 1MDC per inch. Now there are two problems with this.
1) A laser or Railgun hits a point on the armor less than 1 inch and doesn't penitrate to the squishy insides.
2) According to the rules armor is not breached until it is at a fraction I don't recall.

Allowing the pylons to do this is breaching the armor. Which will now make a an excellent salvaged and then jury rigged breaching tool for mages of players or GMs of the school of you can't cast ANY spell into a vehicle or heck why not set up a frame of 100 or so of them in a rectangle, with magnetic or other adhering system. slap it onto the hull of a ship, or the wall of freaking Chi-Town and engage. Ka-Chang, Ka-thum... instant man sized or greater breach. For boarding actions just line them all the way around your boarding tube instead of that pesky laser that has to slowly drill a round hole alerting everyone that sees it and allowing them to be prepaired. Now it is just Ka-Chang, Ka-thum... drop a flash bang, a nanite grenade from japan and a K.O. gas grenade drop in and kick but. Or that is probably too much just freaking jump down no one was ready for you any way. I just want to know one thing... does it make juliane fries?

[keir451]

Deployment and retraction times are both instantaneous, and it is possible to deploy them thru the armor of a tank. Just realize that the MDC value of a square inch of MD armor is no more than 1 MD. Yes it may be several inches thick, but each layer is at the same value as the one before it. Kevin himself states that the pylons can deploy even thru megacrete (MD concrete).

True nuff went through several armors summing all MDC and dividing result by the area HxWxD in inches. Not one went above 2MDC most being below 1MDC per inch. Now there are two problems with this.
1) A laser or Railgun hits a point on the armor less than 1 inch and doesn't penitrate to the squishy insides.
2) According to the rules armor is not breached until it is at a fraction I don't recall.

Allowing the pylons to do this is breaching the armor. Which will now make a an excellent salvaged and then jury rigged breaching tool for mages of players or GMs of the school of you can't cast ANY spell into a vehicle or heck why not set up a frame of 100 or so of them in a rectangle, with magnetic or other adhering system. slap it onto the hull of a ship, or the wall of freaking Chi-Town and engage. Ka-Chang, Ka-thum... instant man sized or greater breach. For boarding actions just line them all the way around your boarding tube instead of that pesky laser that has to slowly drill a round hole alerting everyone that sees it and allowing them to be prepaired. Now it is just Ka-Chang, Ka-thum... drop a flash bang, a nanite grenade from japan and a K.O. gas grenade drop in and kick but. Or that is probably too much just freaking jump down no one was ready for you any way. I just want to know one thing... does it make juliane fries?

It's a tatic that should be allowed sparingly IMO, having a GB deploy its pylons on a tank or larger vehicle/vessel can be allowed and even using it as a coup de grace against an armored soldier might be okay. But just apply common sense to it, like no trying to impale and shoot a flying SAMAS while performing a flying/jumping kick. The game should ALWYS be believable and fun and heroic but not due to munchkinism or random stupidity, random nonsense is OK tho'. And Yes, it slices, it dices, it even juliennes fries!!!

[Zer0 Kay]

Deployment and retraction times are both instantaneous, and it is possible to deploy them thru the armor of a tank. Just realize that the MDC value of a square inch of MD armor is no more than 1 MD. Yes it may be several inches thick, but each layer is at the same value as the one before it. Kevin himself states that the pylons can deploy even thru megacrete (MD concrete).

True nuff went through several armors summing all MDC and dividing result by the area HxWxD in inches. Not one went above 2MDC most being below 1MDC per inch. Now there are two problems with this.
1) A laser or Railgun hits a point on the armor less than 1 inch and doesn't penitrate to the squishy insides.
2) According to the rules armor is not breached until it is at a fraction I don't recall.

Allowing the pylons to do this is breaching the armor. Which will now make a an excellent salvaged and then jury rigged breaching tool for mages of players or GMs of the school of you can't cast ANY spell into a vehicle or heck why not set up a frame of 100 or so of them in a rectangle, with magnetic or other adhering system. slap it onto the hull of a ship, or the wall of freaking Chi-Town and engage. Ka-Chang, Ka-thum... instant man sized or greater breach. For boarding actions just line them all the way around your boarding tube instead of that pesky laser that has to slowly drill a round hole alerting everyone that sees it and allowing them to be prepaired. Now it is just Ka-Chang, Ka-thum... drop a flash bang, a nanite grenade from japan and a K.O. gas grenade drop in and kick but. Or that is probably too much just freaking jump down no one was ready for you any way. I just want to know one thing... does it make juliane fries?

It's a tatic that should be allowed sparingly IMO, having a GB deploy its pylons on a tank or larger vehicle/vessel can be allowed and even using it as a coup de grace against an armored soldier might be okay. But just apply common sense to it, like no trying to impale and shoot a flying SAMAS while performing a flying/jumping kick. The game should ALWYS be believable and fun and heroic but not due to munchkinism or random stupidity, random nonsense is OK tho'. And Yes, it slices, it dices, it even juliennes fries!!!

WHAT no munchkinism in the most munchkinable game ever? Besides it is only munchkin if one person is doing it if everyone has access to it, it is then the status quo.

[keir451]

True munchkinism can be rampant in Rifts, but then again as we all know there are differing levels of munchkinism and the worst of munchkins can really ruina good game.

[Zer0 Kay]

:lol: True munchkinism can be rampant in Rifts, but then again as we all know there are differing levels of munchkinism and the worst of munchkins can really ruina good game.

True, true but as I always say some may consider me the munchking when I'm GMing but I also keep the enemies at equivalent level so instead of playing out munchkin it plays our epic.

[Dog_O_War]

Ahhhhhh watch out Dog of War will come and argue that they deploy after the gun is fired!

And why would I do that?

Perhaps instead I would come here and offer that your misinformation is better left unsaid.

Like now.




And for those of you that care, it states that the pylons deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired.

That translates to "no action" for both the deploy and retract, and since you mentioned it; yes - the pylons do deploy after the gun has been fired, but clearly before the sonic-boom effect can knock the Glitterboy back 30 or so feet.

[Zer0 Kay]

Ahhhhhh watch out Dog of War will come and argue that they deploy after the gun is fired!

And why would I do that?

Because you can't resist and look your here.

Perhaps instead I would come here and offer that your misinformation is better left unsaid.

Yeah... because to fire a weapon means to pull a trigger and not the entire process from trigger pull to the round leaving the muzzle. THE WHOLE PROCESS.

Like now.

Yay

And for those of you that care, it states that the pylons deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired.

What page? Is that exact words or your paraphrasing? I'm pretty sure it doesn't state that "they deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired" because that would mean that after the process is completed (fired=past tense) the deploy and retract... they wouldn't be deployed long enough to dissipate the energy.

That translates to "no action" for both the deploy and retract, and since you mentioned it; yes - the pylons do deploy after the gun has been fired, but clearly before the sonic-boom effect can knock the Glitterboy back 30 or so feet.

the sonic boom doesn't knock the GB back, OMFThor The RECOIL knocks it back. You know... physics, equal and opposite reaction! So its kind of funny why is only the GB affected by the sonic booms "knock down" but everyone else just has to follow these rules?

Spoiler:

The GB suit is specially insulated from the shock waves of the Boom Gun, however, everybody within 200 feet will be temporarily deafened. Characters without any type of head/ear protection will be temporarily deafened for 2D4 minutes
and are -8 on initiative and —3 to parry and dodge. Characters who are in protective body or power armor will have some protection, but are still temporarily deafened for 1D4 minutes; same penalties apply. Each sonic boom adds to the duration of the deafness. The sonic boom will also affect the physical surroundings by shaking buildings and shattering S.D.C. windows within 300 feet of the boom.

This just confirms my initial suspicion that you have poor deciphering/decoding skills. Obviously you can read but you seem to have issues with pulling what is meant out of a given body of text. When they say the "Blast" is so powerful they may be talking about the sonic boom, but it is unlikely since it doesn't have the same effect on other people even if they were standing right next to the Glitter Boy. A shot from a weapon especially one considered and written about by the authors as an energy weapon would likely be refered to as a blast. Heck I've even heard people refer to shots from a shotgun as a blast and while we're there if you don't consider a Railgun an energy weapon, since it uses projectiles, then the next closest thing would be a shotgun. Hey gee ya know shotguns have a flechette round just like the Boom Gun's... except of course it is much smaller and just happens to be illegal for combat use by the Geneva Convention. But then again AT raids are normally not considered combat actions.

[Dog_O_War]

Ahhhhhh watch out Dog of War will come and argue that they deploy after the gun is fired!

And why would I do that?

Because you can't resist and look your here.

That would be against board rules then, because it's baiting.

Perhaps instead I would come here and offer that your misinformation is better left unsaid.

Yeah... because to fire a weapon means to pull a trigger and not the entire process from trigger pull to the round leaving the muzzle. THE WHOLE PROCESS.

To "fire", or "firing", or having "fired" a gun is simply an action-word describing the action involved.
But as you see me as so unenlightened concerning this word, tell me in your own words;
just what is the entire process of firing a weapon?

Like now.

Yay

You called. Maybe next time you'll take my advice and just shut up.

And for those of you that care, it states that the pylons deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired.

What page? Is that exact words or your paraphrasing? I'm pretty sure it doesn't state that "they deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired" because that would mean that after the process is completed (fired=past tense) the deploy and retract... they wouldn't be deployed long enough to dissipate the energy.

*sigh* It appears you still haven't read the entry for the Glitterboy in R:UE.
R:UE pg.72 under the sub-heading; "RG-14 Rapid Acceleration Electromagnetic Rail Gun"
"...the automatic stabilization system is a synchronous system of jet thrusters in the back and retractable reinforcement pylons in the lower legs that hold the armor steady and in place. The pylons and the jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is fired."
This means that if the boomgun is not firing, then they clearly aren't "flying into action". Their typical "non-action" position is retracted.

That translates to "no action" for both the deploy and retract, and since you mentioned it; yes - the pylons do deploy after the gun has been fired, but clearly before the sonic-boom effect can knock the Glitterboy back 30 or so feet.

the sonic boom doesn't knock the GB back, OMFThor The RECOIL knocks it back. You know... physics, equal and opposite reaction!

Semantics. You're effectively holding literal "guns don't kill people, physics do". It's pitiful.

So its kind of funny why is only the GB affected by the sonic booms "knock down" but everyone else just has to follow these rules?

Spoiler:

*Rules*

Not everyone follows those rules. The deaf for example

This just confirms my initial suspicion that you have poor deciphering/decoding skills.

I suggest you look in the mirror before you attempt to judge others' "decoding skills". The following written by you being the prime example;

Obviously you can read but you seem to have issues with pulling what is meant out of a given body of text.

The underline being mine to high-light what I'm talking about.

When they say the "Blast" is so powerful they may be talking about the sonic boom, but it is unlikely since it doesn't have the same effect on other people even if they were standing right next to the Glitter Boy.

They aren't talking about the sonic boom. They are talking about the round the Glitterboy fires forth. They talk about the sonic boom afterwards.
These are two seperate and distinct affects of the boomgun being fired.
If the person standing next to be hasn't braced his weapon sufficiently, it's going to either fly out of his hands or knock him off his feet, but do neither of these to me. This is what they were driving at when they wrote the text. How's that for "decoding skills"?

[Zer0 Kay]

Ahhhhhh watch out Dog of War will come and argue that they deploy after the gun is fired!

And why would I do that?

Because you can't resist and look your here.

That would be against board rules then, because it's baiting.

So now your saying that dead fenris baited you simply by posting this thread? I know you aren't but that is what it reads. All I did was state that you were going to be here and what I think your going to do and inferred that I am not looking foward to the experience.

Perhaps instead I would come here and offer that your misinformation is better left unsaid.

Yeah... because to fire a weapon means to pull a trigger and not the entire process from trigger pull to the round leaving the muzzle. THE WHOLE PROCESS.

To "fire", or "firing", or having "fired" a gun is simply an action-word describing the action involved.
But as you see me as so unenlightened concerning this word, tell me in your own words;
just what is the entire process of firing a weapon?

railgun: trigger pressed-circuit closed/activated-energy applied to rails-armature accelerated-round pushed-round leaves barrel-armature turns to plasma
coilgun (EM in this case for Electro-magnet not Electro-magnetic as in field): trigger pressed-circuit closed/activated-energy applied to EM1-round pulled-round accelerated-EM1 deactivated-EM2 activated-round pulled-round accelerated-EM2 deactivated-EM3 activated... round leaves barrel

It is interesting to note that a railgun has a muzzle flash of sorts while a coilgun does not. Also with the rapid rate of fire but lower damage it is more likely that all railguns except for the Boomgun are Coilguns. Coilguns are primarily Gaussian while Railguns are Lorentzian (sp?) requiring an armature to complete the circuit between the rails. The Boom Gun would have the deployment of the pylons before the energy is applied to the rails and the jets after that, and by "after that" I mean after the pylons but before the rails.

Like now.

Yay

You called. Maybe next time you'll take my advice and just shut up.

I didn't call, I didn't PM you, I didn't even start a thread called hey DOA go look at the "deployment time on GB/Boom Gun pylons?" thread. So unless your Lucifer or some creature that can be summoned by its pseudonym being typed... I didn't call you.

And for those of you that care, it states that the pylons deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired.

What page? Is that exact words or your paraphrasing? I'm pretty sure it doesn't state that "they deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired" because that would mean that after the process is completed (fired=past tense) the deploy and retract... they wouldn't be deployed long enough to dissipate the energy.

*sigh* It appears you still haven't read the entry for the Glitterboy in R:UE.

You know... YOUR RIGHT, I didn't read it. However, after reading it I still did not see "they deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired"

R:UE pg.72 under the sub-heading; "RG-14 Rapid Acceleration Electromagnetic Rail Gun"
"...the automatic stabilization system is a synchronous system of jet thrusters in the back and retractable reinforcement pylons in the lower legs that hold the armor steady and in place. The pylons and the jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is fired."
This means that if the boomgun is not firing, then they clearly aren't "flying into action". Their typical "non-action" position is retracted.

As stated above it doesn't say what you said it did. First off how does flying into action mean instant? Second your making an assumption that it goes back every time instead of allowing the GB to fire the BG repeatedly without having to reset. Also if something flys into action when activated since when does it have to return to its default state?

That translates to "no action" for both the deploy and retract, and since you mentioned it; yes - the pylons do deploy after the gun has been fired, but clearly before the sonic-boom effect can knock the Glitterboy back 30 or so feet.

the sonic boom doesn't knock the GB back, OMFThor The RECOIL knocks it back. You know... physics, equal and opposite reaction!

Semantics. You're effectively holding literal "guns don't kill people, physics do". It's pitiful.

WTH no it isn't semantics saying that it was a backwards motion caused by the acceleration of the bullet out the barrel would be semantics. You saying it is the sonic boom is COMPLETELY incorrect. Not to mention if it was the sonic boom there would be no need for the pylons and jet system in space as a sonic boom is a shockwave created by an object going through an atmosphere.

So its kind of funny why is only the GB affected by the sonic booms "knock down" but everyone else just has to follow these rules?

Spoiler:

*Rules*

Not everyone follows those rules. The deaf for example

Nice attempt at redirection you know the point isn't about the deaf but that there are rules for the effects on people around the gun when it is fired and none of those effects include any knock down... which shows that your statement that it is the sonic boom which knocks the GB back incorrect.

This just confirms my initial suspicion that you have poor deciphering/decoding skills.

I suggest you look in the mirror before you attempt to judge others' "decoding skills". The following written by you being the prime example;

Obviously you can read but you seem to have issues with pulling what is meant out of a given body of text.

The underline being mine to high-light what I'm talking about.

Uh, yeah... you've proven nothing unless your saying you don't understand that statement either. The underlined would be the definition of deciphering.

When they say the "Blast" is so powerful they may be talking about the sonic boom, but it is unlikely since it doesn't have the same effect on other people even if they were standing right next to the Glitter Boy.

They aren't talking about the sonic boom. They are talking about the round the Glitterboy fires forth. They talk about the sonic boom afterwards.

So wait... first you say that the sonic boom is what knocks the GB back and in the text it talks about the Blast being what knocks the GB back and now you are saying that the Blast is indeed refering to the round and not the sonic boom... so you just stated that you are wrong and that it is not the sonic boom that nocks the GB back because the text specifically states that it is the blast which you agree is refering to the round.

These are two seperate and distinct affects of the boomgun being fired.
If the person standing next to be hasn't braced his weapon sufficiently, it's going to either fly out of his hands or knock him off his feet, but do neither of these to me. This is what they were driving at when they wrote the text. How's that for "decoding skills"?

What are two seperate effects? The Blast knocking it back and the Sonic Boom? In which case you are correct. So why then would the pylons activate after the round has left the barrel but before the Sonic Boom if it is not the sonic boom that knocks it back? I wasn't arguing that a weapon is only going to apply recoil to the user. I was arguing that you said

yes - the pylons do deploy after the gun has been fired, but clearly before the sonic-boom effect can knock the Glitterboy back 30 or so feet.

So how is it that you were able to, now, decode it as what is normally considered correct, but before you were adamant that the sonic boom was causing the knock back?

Other notes: Just like with any other gun that uses rounds that travel at or faster than the speed of sound, the sonic boom is heard the moment the round leaves the barrel but started once the bullet reached the speed of sound in the barrel. The shockwave is formed in the barrel but isn't heard until the shockwave can collapse around the round. Only part of the noise is the chemical reaction. In order to use a silencer on any weapon you have to use subsonic rounds because a sonic boom happens along the entire path of the round until it decelerates below sonic speeds. So if they were following reality the Boomguns rounds should be causing the deafness effect the entire trajectory of the bullet until it decelerates below sonic speeds.

[Zer0 Kay]

So... as much as I'm enjoying the spirited debate, could one just assume that when the trigger is pulled the pylons drill, the round chambers, the acceleration begins, the round exits the barrel, activating the suppression jets? Then one could go on to assume that the pylons can be left in place... allowing multiple firing, or retract when the pilot attempts to move the unit? Not looking for any potential wrath, just offering/asking for ideas.

That is close to what I've always thought and how I read it in the book. The first thing and this is absolutely no big deal would be when the round was chambered. The book doesn't say and it doesn't matter as far as the operation goes. I (can't emphasise that enough) think that the round is probably chambered immediately after the last one is fired. If it was one of todays railguns with the armature and round there would be a problem because the round would fall out if held downward, but the Boomgun has a shell that is the armature so it won't fall out. But like I said that part doesn't matter. As for the jets I think they'd have to start at the toward the beginning of the firing process sometime before the round was accelerated but after the pylons are engaged. Because, as soon as the round is accelerated there is going to be force pushing the GB back once it leaves the barrel there is no longer any force applied to the weapon. Remember that unlike a firearm using a chemical reaction to push the bullet a railgun uses the rails and the Lorentz force to pull the armature through the barrel. Hmm I think I've finally figured out why the BG round would have the "primer" section making it look like a shotgun shell. Reading up on railguns, in order to avoid getting the armature welded to the rails they shot the armature between the rails (pre-accelerating it) with a gas gun. So maybe the BG does the same thing with a chemical propellant, which also explains why the BG would need an ejection port. The kick from this would be negligable compared to the linear acceleration. The way you say the pylons work is how I've always done it but there is nothing in the book to support either way.

[glitterboy2098]

So... as much as I'm enjoying the spirited debate, could one just assume that when the trigger is pulled the pylons drill, the round chambers, the acceleration begins, the round exits the barrel, activating the suppression jets?

i beleive this is the canonical description actually.

Then one could go on to assume that the pylons can be left in place... allowing multiple firing, or retract when the pilot attempts to move the unit? Not looking for any potential wrath, just offering/asking for ideas.

sure. i tie it into the trigger of the weapon. partial pressure on the trigger after firing keeps the pylons deployed. letting up entirely causes them to retract. so if you want to stay put, you just keep pulling the trigger a bit. if you want to move, let up entirely.

i'd only make deploying/undeploying use an action if your doing it with gun stowed (IE via voice control or eye tracking HUD control or whatever). even then, the pylons actually deploying is an under 1 second event, the other time spent reflects time used to activate the non-gun control.

[Dog_O_War]

Ahhhhhh watch out Dog of War will come and argue that they deploy after the gun is fired!

And why would I do that?

Because you can't resist and look your here.

That would be against board rules then, because it's baiting.

So now your saying that dead fenris baited you simply by posting this thread? I know you aren't but that is what it reads. All I did was state that you were going to be here and what I think your going to do and inferred that I am not looking foward to the experience.

Yes; that is called baiting (the bolded portion).

Perhaps instead I would come here and offer that your misinformation is better left unsaid.

Yeah... because to fire a weapon means to pull a trigger and not the entire process from trigger pull to the round leaving the muzzle. THE WHOLE PROCESS.

To "fire", or "firing", or having "fired" a gun is simply an action-word describing the action involved.
But as you see me as so unenlightened concerning this word, tell me in your own words;
just what is the entire process of firing a weapon?

railgun: trigger pressed-circuit closed/activated-energy applied to rails-armature accelerated-round pushed-round leaves barrel-armature turns to plasma
coilgun (EM in this case for Electro-magnet not Electro-magnetic as in field): trigger pressed-circuit closed/activated-energy applied to EM1-round pulled-round accelerated-EM1 deactivated-EM2 activated-round pulled-round accelerated-EM2 deactivated-EM3 activated... round leaves barrel[/quote]
And what of laserguns, plasma guns, ion guns, shotguns, six-guns, and glue-guns? And no, that last one isn't so much a joke as it is a point of tedium.
The tedium being that you've dissected a very simple action of "firing a gun" into a complex piece of work that has no relevance within the game.

Like now.

Yay

You called. Maybe next time you'll take my advice and just shut up.

I didn't call, I didn't PM you, I didn't even start a thread called hey DOA go look at the "deployment time on GB/Boom Gun pylons?" thread. So unless your Lucifer or some creature that can be summoned by its pseudonym being typed... I didn't call you.

You have no concept of hyperbole.

You know... YOUR RIGHT, I didn't read it. However, after reading it I still did not see "they deploy and retract in an instant, the moment the gun is fired"

R:UE pg.72 under the sub-heading; "RG-14 Rapid Acceleration Electromagnetic Rail Gun"
"...the automatic stabilization system is a synchronous system of jet thrusters in the back and retractable reinforcement pylons in the lower legs that hold the armor steady and in place. The pylons and the jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is fired."
This means that if the boomgun is not firing, then they clearly aren't "flying into action". Their typical "non-action" position is retracted.

As stated above it doesn't say what you said it did. First off how does flying into action mean instant?

Well in the realm of action and no-action, firing a boomgun takes one action. The pylons flying into "action" does not [take an action]. Since within the combat round we have no "half-actions" or "micro-actions" denoting things that take less time than a typical "full" action takes, it must occur instantly.

Second your making an assumption that it goes back every time instead of allowing the GB to fire the BG repeatedly without having to reset. Also if something flys into action when activated since when does it have to return to its default state?

Are you also assuming that the jet-thrusters keep thrusting until deactivated then?

That translates to "no action" for both the deploy and retract, and since you mentioned it; yes - the pylons do deploy after the gun has been fired, but clearly before the sonic-boom effect can knock the Glitterboy back 30 or so feet.

the sonic boom doesn't knock the GB back, OMFThor The RECOIL knocks it back. You know... physics, equal and opposite reaction!

Semantics. You're effectively holding literal "guns don't kill people, physics do". It's pitiful.

WTH no it isn't semantics saying that it was a backwards motion caused by the acceleration of the bullet out the barrel would be semantics.

Yes, it is semantics. I said it was the boomgun causing the knock-back; you attempted to argue that it was recoil and physics. Semantics is the study of the meaning, or the interpretation of a word. I said "boomgun" under the assumption that when you look at the entry for "boomgun", that you'd note that the rules regarding the boomguns' knock-back refer specifically to the weapon.
You're saying other things that literally amount to semantics of the gun.

You saying it is the sonic boom is COMPLETELY incorrect.

And why? Are concussive waves of force not good enough to knock people off of their feet these days? Especially when they're contained and directed?
But yes, I referred to the "sonic-boom effect" again under the assumption that you would glean that I meant "the effects of firing the boom-gun". Apparently I gave you too much credit.

Not to mention if it was the sonic boom there would be no need for the pylons and jet system in space as a sonic boom is a shockwave created by an object going through an atmosphere.

Yes, and damaging lasers are visible in this game. Clearly the people that wrote it were not scientists.
Also, FIREBALL!

So its kind of funny why is only the GB affected by the sonic booms "knock down" but everyone else just has to follow these rules?

Spoiler:

*Rules*

Not everyone follows those rules. The deaf for example

Nice attempt at redirection you know the point isn't about the deaf but that there are rules for the effects on people around the gun when it is fired and none of those effects include any knock down...

That's because the sonic boom only applies deafness. People refer (as I did above) to the sonic-boom knock-down as a general mention of the boomguns' knock-down effect as the two go hand-in-hand. Again, you're arguing semantics.

which shows that your statement that it is the sonic boom which knocks the GB back incorrect.

You mentioned it first, bud. You even quoted yourself saying "...the sonic booms "knock down"...". I was only playing off of your inferred meaning. So either I gave you too much credit in assuming that you were using the generalized sonic-boom effect to mean the boomgun effect, or you have no idea which effect is which.

This just confirms my initial suspicion that you have poor deciphering/decoding skills.

I suggest you look in the mirror before you attempt to judge others' "decoding skills". The following written by you being the prime example;

Obviously you can read but you seem to have issues with pulling what is meant out of a given body of text.

The underline being mine to high-light what I'm talking about.

Uh, yeah... you've proven nothing unless your saying you don't understand that statement either. The underlined would be the definition of deciphering.

So wait... first you say that the sonic boom is what knocks the GB back

No. As mentioned above, I have given your deductive skills too much credit in that I assumed you could glean the meaning of the "sonic-boom effect" to include all the affects of a boomgun going off.

These are two seperate and distinct affects of the boomgun being fired.
If the person standing next to be hasn't braced his weapon sufficiently, it's going to either fly out of his hands or knock him off his feet, but do neither of these to me. This is what they were driving at when they wrote the text. How's that for "decoding skills"?

What are two seperate effects? The Blast knocking it back and the Sonic Boom? In which case you are correct. So why then would the pylons activate after the round has left the barrel[/quote]
Who said the round has left the barrel?

but before the Sonic Boom if it is not the sonic boom that knocks it back? I wasn't arguing that a weapon is only going to apply recoil to the user. I was arguing that you said

yes - the pylons do deploy after the gun has been fired, but clearly before the sonic-boom effect can knock the Glitterboy back 30 or so feet.

So how is it that you were able to, now, decode it as what is normally considered correct, but before you were adamant that the sonic boom was causing the knock back?

This is miscommunication. And I wasn't adamant that it was the sonic boom; I assumed (again, as stated above) that you would infer that by "sonic boom effect", I included the only other effect that happens simultaineously with it.

Other notes: Just like with any other gun that uses rounds that travel at or faster than the speed of sound, the sonic boom is heard the moment the round leaves the barrel

False.
It's heard in revolvers the instant it crosses the cylinder/barrel gap; that would be the moment it enters the barrel.

but started once the bullet reached the speed of sound in the barrel. The shockwave is formed in the barrel but isn't heard until the shockwave can collapse around the round. Only part of the noise is the chemical reaction. In order to use a silencer on any weapon you have to use subsonic rounds because a sonic boom happens along the entire path of the round until it decelerates below sonic speeds. So if they were following reality the Boomguns rounds should be causing the deafness effect the entire trajectory of the bullet until it decelerates below sonic speeds.

They aren't using reality though. They are using FIREBALL!

[Dog_O_War]

So... as much as I'm enjoying the spirited debate, could one just assume that when the trigger is pulled the pylons drill, the round chambers, the acceleration begins, the round exits the barrel, activating the suppression jets? Then one could go on to assume that the pylons can be left in place... allowing multiple firing, or retract when the pilot attempts to move the unit? Not looking for any potential wrath, just offering/asking for ideas.

It's the assumption of people that would keep the pylons planted.

But within the same thought people assume the recoil jets stop thrusting.

Why? No good reason. This is why I assume that when the boomgun is not firing, the knock-back prevention system - all of it - is not in effect. Otherwise it makes just as much sense for the jets to keep thrusting as it does for the pylons to remain planted.
That amount of sense would be "zero".


Otherwise, yes; one could assume that the recoil-system can be modified so the pylons will remain planted, just as the system can be modified to not deploy the pylons and still be fire-capable.

[Jorel]

How is it that they are not 2 separate features that stabilize, controlled by separate computers and that don't fire simultaneously? Why would the thrusters have to fire for as long as the pylons are extended? Seems like a silly stance.

[Zer0 Kay]

How is it that they are not 2 separate features that stabilize, controlled by separate computers and that don't fire simultaneously? Why would the thrusters have to fire for as long as the pylons are extended? Seems like a silly stance.

Not to mention that in the Mutants in Orbit book it states that the thrusters are used to keep the suit in possition in space and the pylons on a ship. It doesn't say the pylons are hanging out of the feet where they can be damaged by a suprised attack shooting a laser off into space.

[Mack]

Zer0 Kay & Dog_O_War,

You've both said what you have to say on this topic so just move on.

[Zer0 Kay]

Zer0 Kay & Dog_O_War,

You've both said what you have to say on this topic so just move on.

So I tossed my big long reply because you'll probably ban me for ignoring this warning. So could you please get an official answer for us?
Is it trigger-->recoil system-->rails-->round ejected-->sonic boom
or
trigger-->rails-->round ejected-->recoil system-->sonic boom
also do the pylons retract after every shot or are they anchored until the GB starts to take a step?

You know it really feels like mods would rather bully than help us out and get a simple official answer. It would probably solve the same problems more amacably if you did so. But then you guys would look like the good guys who occasionally have to get though instead of the bad guys that sometimes do something nice. Right now you guys seem more like S.H.I.E.L.D rather than the Avengers.

[Rimmer]

Official answer ??? Zero made a funny

[Zer0 Kay]

Official answer ??? Zero made a funny

Thinking back on it, it is kind of funny isn't it. But don't you think that would end so many debates if those authorized to give answers would do so? Don't you think if the moderators actually moderated, which includes providing an answer when possible, they would be looked upon in a better light?

[Zer0 Kay]

I suppose regardless of an "official" answer the vast majority of us will toss it out in preference of how we do it. I know some people complain about how vague Rifts rules are, but I do like the fact that it is rather effortless to house rule. Whether the Boo Gun takes an action to plant, retract, or both... does it really matter? Are you going to change the way you run it in your game. It takes no action for either in my game. Plants when you go to fire, retracts when you go to move... it's a piece of Golden Age technology, it's supposed to be awesome. The bigger question I've developed from this thread is if it can plant on an MD surface. If it can, it can plant on Wormwood. If it can't plant on an MD planet I'm going to assume it can't plant on an MD structure of any kind.

J/K What is a Boo Gun? Is it a Boom Gun that is supernatural? J/K

Yeah too true about the preference, that is after all where so many house rules come from, more so than broken rules.
To tell the truth it doesn't matter for any other reason than making things work in my mind. So maybe I would play it differently. If the pylons didn't plant until the sonic boom was generate then I'd make the darn things fly back 30 feet every time they shot but then I'd had house rule fluff that it had been modified.

I could somewhat understand not being able to plant on Wormwood. Doesn't the planet regenerate? If not then I'd rule that it could.

[Zer0 Kay]

I suppose regardless of an "official" answer the vast majority of us will toss it out in preference of how we do it. I know some people complain about how vague Rifts rules are, but I do like the fact that it is rather effortless to house rule. Whether the Boo Gun takes an action to plant, retract, or both... does it really matter? Are you going to change the way you run it in your game. It takes no action for either in my game. Plants when you go to fire, retracts when you go to move... it's a piece of Golden Age technology, it's supposed to be awesome. The bigger question I've developed from this thread is if it can plant on an MD surface. If it can, it can plant on Wormwood. If it can't plant on an MD planet I'm going to assume it can't plant on an MD structure of any kind.

J/K What is a Boo Gun? Is it a Boom Gun that is supernatural? J/K

Yeah too true about the preference, that is after all where so many house rules come from, more so than broken rules.
To tell the truth it doesn't matter for any other reason than making things work in my mind. So maybe I would play it differently. If the pylons didn't plant until the sonic boom was generate then I'd make the darn things fly back 30 feet every time they shot but then I'd had house rule fluff that it had been modified.

I could somewhat understand not being able to plant on Wormwood. Doesn't the planet regenerate? If not then I'd rule that it could.

I've been skimming Wormwood to see if I was just making that up or if it was canon, All the experience I had with it the pylons could never drill. I'll let you know if I find a real answer. A Boo gun is appropriate because it scares the hell out of whoever it's pointed at! Curse you spell checker for not seeing words the way I want you to!

:lol: You know that actually makes sense... maybe Glitterboys should have a HF... or at least the Boom Gun should

[Mack]

Zer0 Kay & Dog_O_War,

You've both said what you have to say on this topic so just move on.

So I tossed my big long reply because you'll probably ban me for ignoring this warning. So could you please get an official answer for us?
Is it trigger-->recoil system-->rails-->round ejected-->sonic boom
or
trigger-->rails-->round ejected-->recoil system-->sonic boom
also do the pylons retract after every shot or are they anchored until the GB starts to take a step?

You know it really feels like mods would rather bully than help us out and get a simple official answer. It would probably solve the same problems more amacably if you did so. But then you guys would look like the good guys who occasionally have to get though instead of the bad guys that sometimes do something nice. Right now you guys seem more like S.H.I.E.L.D rather than the Avengers.

I understand your frustration, but I don't have any more ability to obtain an official answer than you do. The few folks who can provide an official answer don't frequent the message boards (that's another story). I wish I could give an official answer, but it would just be my opinion (though I could pass it off as official ).

The best route is to write a letter (not an email--though you could try) to Palladium Books requesting an answer.

[Zer0 Kay]

Zer0 Kay & Dog_O_War,

You've both said what you have to say on this topic so just move on.

So I tossed my big long reply because you'll probably ban me for ignoring this warning. So could you please get an official answer for us?
Is it trigger-->recoil system-->rails-->round ejected-->sonic boom
or
trigger-->rails-->round ejected-->recoil system-->sonic boom
also do the pylons retract after every shot or are they anchored until the GB starts to take a step?

You know it really feels like mods would rather bully than help us out and get a simple official answer. It would probably solve the same problems more amacably if you did so. But then you guys would look like the good guys who occasionally have to get though instead of the bad guys that sometimes do something nice. Right now you guys seem more like S.H.I.E.L.D rather than the Avengers.

I understand your frustration, but I don't have any more ability to obtain an official answer than you do. The few folks who can provide an official answer don't frequent the message boards (that's another story). I wish I could give an official answer, but it would just be my opinion (though I could pass it off as official ).

The best route is to write a letter (not an email--though you could try) to Palladium Books requesting an answer.

OK that is the second time mods have helped me out. Hmm, no argh... opinion being reformed, ouch. OK you guys aren't so bad... I'm Neutral instead of opposed (even though there is no neutral in PB )

[Zer0 Kay]

wow...all i wanted was to not lose a full combat round before i could shoot things...

Yeah sorry about that semi-tangent.
The pylons are automatically deployed by the GB just before the gun is fired costing you no actions as it is done durring the same time period that your character is going through all the complications of firing and it is deployed without additional action from him (its automatic). That we as players in the real world reduce to simply declaring your going to shoot a target and rolling the dice. If you wanted to imagine when they deploy it would likely be when you are stating what target your going to shoot.