Dog pack vrs ..DEMONS !!

[Killer Cyborg]

I do not know how else to make this any more simpler in either logic or explanation then I just did ..

None of that actually happens in the rules of the game.
I don't know how else to make this any more simpler in either logic or explanation than I just did.

[Killer Cyborg]

I for one have suspension of disbelief when I gm an play a Role playing game .. its part an parsel of the game world in general.

But when in the game Supernatural Strength can rend MD Steel .. yet can NOT .. punch the head off of a SDC being .. off .. You are quite litterally bending the rules to suit your needs .. an there an then the Suspension of disbelief is gone.

No- that's simply how the rules WORK.
Same way that, as I mentioned before, you can be wearing MDC leather armor, get shot by a railgun round, and not explode inside your armor.
The rules list the ways you can get harmed while wearing MDC armor, and getting your head ripped off while you're wearing a MDC helmet is simply not one of them.

[Killer Cyborg]

And for the 3rd time .. The point everyone keeps ignoring is that the Padding of the Dogboy is like that of a Football player .. and the Helmut of the Dogboy is like that of Leather .. by the looks of it .. it is neither connected to any other peice of armor on the body .. nor does it have inertial dampeners which help the SDC neck of the SDC dogboys .. absorb the Mega Damage Punch ..

Unsure how to emphasize this any further:

NOBODY IS IGNORING THAT.
WE ARE TELLING YOU WHY THAT DOES NOT MATTER.

[Crucible]

[Lenwen]

And for the 3rd time .. The point everyone keeps ignoring is that the Padding of the Dogboy is like that of a Football player .. and the Helmut of the Dogboy is like that of Leather .. by the looks of it .. it is neither connected to any other peice of armor on the body .. nor does it have inertial dampeners which help the SDC neck of the SDC dogboys .. absorb the Mega Damage Punch ..

Unsure how to emphasize this any further:

NOBODY IS IGNORING THAT.
WE ARE TELLING YOU WHY THAT DOES NOT MATTER.

So where is the rule that which clearly makes this against the rules ?

Supernatural Strength .. able to destroy MDC Steel .. yet can not break SDC bones ?

I'll wait for your rule citation.

[Killer Cyborg]

And for the 3rd time .. The point everyone keeps ignoring is that the Padding of the Dogboy is like that of a Football player .. and the Helmut of the Dogboy is like that of Leather .. by the looks of it .. it is neither connected to any other peice of armor on the body .. nor does it have inertial dampeners which help the SDC neck of the SDC dogboys .. absorb the Mega Damage Punch ..

Unsure how to emphasize this any further:

NOBODY IS IGNORING THAT.
WE ARE TELLING YOU WHY THAT DOES NOT MATTER.

So where is the rule that which clearly makes this against the rules ?

Already addressed.
Read the posts that people have made in response to you, and you will discover:
a) what rules we have referred to.
b) why there doesn't need to be a specific rule addressing the situation you describe.

Supernatural Strength .. able to destroy MDC Steel .. yet can not break SDC bones ?

It can break SDC bones.
To pretend that ANYBODY has said otherwise is disingenuous.

Just usually not when they're covered in MDC armor.
And only "usually" because there are a few specific instances where they can cause SDC damage, and these few specific instances are listed in the book.
Getting punched in the head while wearing an MDC helmet is not one of them.
End of story.

[Crazy Lou]

I noticed when I start to make sense .. logically speaking .. alotta people try to say it does not .. Like this situation that my friend well ... opening my eyes to the very real threat of Supernatural strength .. litterally decapitating SDC beings with MDC padded helmuts on ..

This is a VERY real possability .. The only rules that are in fact against it .. KS - Dont do your players durty ..

Well in this scenario none of the participants are PC's .. The only way this does not unfold as it should .. in this situation is flat out .. Because who ever plays it out .. does not want the Demon to be able to do such a feat ..

That is thee only reason you .. and everyone who says it does not work that way .. can honestly say it does not work that way ..

When following logical deduction threw .. SN Strength .. which can rend MD steel .. is "Magically" stopped by SDC bones ...

Not logical in the least .. sorry ..

Alright, then. Provide your proof, please. No logic, just cold, hard game statistics.

Book and page numbers for reference. As you always request these from anyone else in a debate with you then you should have no problem whatsoever with me placing the burden of proof on you for a change.

In fact, since you're the one making the assumption, the burden of proof has always been on you.

So, crack open those books and proof up. No proof, no canon.

OrchestralDarkness, you took the words right out of my mouth. I got on this evening to demand the same thing.



And Lewen, by the way, you're not going to find it. Anywhere. But have fun reading through thousands of pages of RPG books looking for it.

[Shark_Force]

And for the 3rd time .. The point everyone keeps ignoring is that the Padding of the Dogboy is like that of a Football player .. and the Helmut of the Dogboy is like that of Leather .. by the looks of it .. it is neither connected to any other peice of armor on the body .. nor does it have inertial dampeners which help the SDC neck of the SDC dogboys .. absorb the Mega Damage Punch ..

Unsure how to emphasize this any further:

NOBODY IS IGNORING THAT.
WE ARE TELLING YOU WHY THAT DOES NOT MATTER.

see, this is exactly why i decided to leave this thread. i am unable to continue the conversation in a polite manner. polite discussion isn't getting through to him, and it isn't going to. neither is impolite explanation. the best solution is to just let this thread slow descend into oblivion where it belongs as far as i'm concerned.

or, to put it another way... whether he is intentionally playing the part or not (i am inclined to think he is not) in this case, you are feeding the troll. don't feed the troll, it only encourages them. just let it sink, let him add his houserules that make MDC armor completely useless against MD attacks, and the rest of us can keep playing in a game where MDC armor actually offers protection from MD attacks.

[killhound]

it doesn't matter because the dogpack is not going to engage in hth combat in the first place and yet you still don't get it realy

[Dead Boy]

First, run out of parries? Is there more errata I need to go look up? Or are you saying that the demons count as noncombat personnel?

Automatic parries are the province of those with Hand to Hand combat forms.
Most demons (fenry included, IIRC) are not listed as having Hand to Hand combat forms.
Therefore, most demons do not have automatic parry.

That has never occurred to me. The assumption that such foes would have Auto-Parry was always a foregone conclusion. ... This changes things a great deal!

It actually changes the dynamics of combat quite a bit.

Yup, it does.

Which is why I don't run my games using it. But of course, discussion on the boards requires the commanality of the canon rules.

I know what you mean. Though I kind of like the GI Joe rule, I've been thinking of implementing a variation of it where every point of MD that exceeds the armor's MDC below zero is converted into SDC either on a 1MD:1SDC or 1MD: 2SDC basis. The latter maybe the way to go because it makes MD attacks that exceed the armor's MDC more likely to do serious damage, thus making the rule a lot less nonsensical or cartoonish.

No official rule I know of for allowing called shots in melee, unless the ranged rules apply, in which case that power punch would take at least three attacks- one to aim, one to wind up, and one to attack.

That's way back in Vampire Kingdoms in the section about staking vamps in the heart in hand to hand melee, (which essentially says all you have to do is declare where you want the hit to go, and roll to attack as normal for melee combat, hitting on a 5 of better). This is where the Fenry will have a big advantage given that they themselves do not have a Hit By Location chart attached to their own personal MDCs, while the Dog Boys do on their body armors.

A) I'm still waiting on that book and page number, so quit your gawking

No your not I already given you the information you asked for .

My bad. It was late and the eyes were blurring on me. Frankly I shouldn't have posted at all then. Please accept my apologies.

But I'm good now and have thoroughly reviewed the entire string, (skimming over the parts that were mostly squabbles ... and let me tell you what a relief it is to see those and NOT be one the contributing parties), and am now ready to throw in my two cents.

If I understand correctly Dragons(creature of magic),no,Fenry(supernatual),no, Graggle Tooth,yes, because it may have SN PS and MDC but is not supernatural or a creature of magic.

Is this right?

That is correct! When it comes to what supernatural things a CS Neural Mace can and can not effect, the term "supernatural" is misleading. Just because some d-bee or critter has a supernatural attribute, an MDC skin, or some spiffy powers, this does NOT arbitrarily make it a "truly supernatural" creature or creature of magic that is immune to the mace's effects. Essentially, everything in the book D-Dees Of North America is fair game for the mace (including the Flooper, which in Vampire Kingdoms was listed as a "creature of magic", but lost that status in WB: 30 because that actually means something now). If you flip open Conversion Book 1, everything from pg 47 to 108 can be stunned/OK'ed, with everything else doable on a case by case basis (gets pretty mixed up from there on).

So, no. Contrary to what some said earlier in this string, the CS Neural Mace is not a useless weapon... but it isn't very useful in this scenario against the Ferny given their extremely supernatural nature, (if only for the fact the they can't actually be killed, but only sent back to Dyval to be born again). But in the course of your typical adventure, it is an extremely useful and dangerous weapon.

... and now, at long, long last...

My Reply To The Original Post!!!

A Typical 5th lvl (all) Dogpack with 4 Members and a Psi-Stalker with Starting equipment vs 2 Fenry Wolf Demons.

In the The Colosseum and to the death.

Who wins ?

Ok, since you said a 4 member pack, that must mean that the starting standard equipment must come out of Lone Star, (RUE states that a pack is 6-10 strong, while LS lists it as 4-10). Even so, going with the absolute minimum number goes to show your slant on this from the get-go. Even so, let’s see how this works out.

The fight is to take place in The Coliseum, which means the fighting ground is a 272 x 157 foot oval, with the possibility of it going into the stands and maybe the hypogeum, (the underground structure), as well, which is not as maze-like as suggested earlier, but instead follows a logical and symmetrical architectural design.

The combatants consist of two Fenry on one side and a Psi-Stalker and 4 Dog Boy soldiers on the other. The Demon Wolves (as per MikelAmroni’s name suggestions), Shar-payn and Kil-rah, are somewhat dissimilar from each other in that Shar-payn is the larger above average one physically (150 MDC, PS of 31, and Speed of 80) and Kil-rah is the smaller below average one, but faster (110 MDC, PS of 21, and Speed of 140).
The Psi-Stalker is completely average across the board. Two of the Dog Boys are below average in their stats; Bloodhound (PS of 10 and Speed of 19) and Boxer (PS of 13 and Speed of 19). The other two Dog Boys are above average in their stats; German Shepherd (PP of 18 [including skills] and Speed of 32) and Doberman Pinscher (PS of 24 and Speed of 40). Yea, I thought about whooping out the Mutant Abnormalities, but I want to keep this grounded. All dogs have non-environmental DMP light riot armor (50 MDC being the “standard” version), and while the Bloodhound and Boxer are armed with the heavier hitting CP-40, the German and Doberman are armed with C-14’s with their vibro-sabers attached as bayonets (as stated is very common on pg. 46 of Lone Star). In lieu of vibro-sabers, the other two have Neural Maces. All other gear is as listed in their equipment.

Ok, that’s enough setup. Let’s get to it!

In a flash of brilliant light both the Dog Pack and Ferny appear on opposite sides of the Coliseum’s main floor, much to the delight of the cheering crowd thirsty for more bloody entertainment, complements of their mysterious and powerful benefactor. Both the opponents look around, confused about what just happened, but quickly see each other. Instinctively the Ferny recognize the Dogs as their foes even though being minions of Dyval they’ve never seen their likes before. The Psi-Stalker takes control of the situation and shouts, “KILL THEM!!!”, pointing at the charging demons, (though they’re not actually “demons”, they don’t know that).

Melee Attack 1: While the Psi-Stalker and Doberman open fire, the other three are momentarily frozen in awe the horrible visage of the monstrous wolf-monsters, (failed their horror factors). Of the two shots fired only the Doberman’s hits the mark, shooting at the larger and more dangerous looking of the two Fenry, (all damage will strictly be averages, rounded up to the nearest whole, so he did 11 MD). Kil-rah, being faster than Shar-payn, pulls head, covering the whole 272 in just three seconds. Shar-payn on the other hand is a bit slower and will require another melee action to reach the Dog Pack. Even though he is momentarily alone, Kil-rah ends his sprint with a ram to Psi-Stalker’s chest, (I’m counting the ram as an RCC special move and am taking damage as listed). The Fenry’s skull slams into the Stalker (dealing 11 MD) and successfully sends him to the ground, stunned for the time being.

Melee Attack 2: Seeing their leader violently knocked to the ground, the dogs come to their senses (horror factor’s effects are now over), and their years of military training kick in. The German Shepherd orders the other three to engage the immediate attacker, while he himself rushes forward to meet the oncoming brute that will be upon them in just another few seconds. The Doberman takes the lead, placing himself in most in harm’s way in front of Kil-rah, while taking a pop shot that goes wild. Boxer’s and Bloodhound’s shots both hit their mark though (dealing 42 MD). Kil-rah isn’t doing much other than recovering his bearing from his ram attack (counts as two attacks). German Shepherd stands his ground on the forward position and shoots at the charging, hulking demon wolf, but the shot misses its mark (it was a Wild shot anyhow). Shar-payn finishes closing ground on the squishy prey dog-things, ending his charge with a lunging bite of his powerful jaws. However, as the Fenry’s jaws star to snap down, Shar-payn’s whole snout is deflected to the side, (Shepherd’s + 8 to parry [+2PP+1RCC+2WP+3HtH] vs Fenry’s +4 to hit), by the Shepherd’s vibro-bayonet using the length of his rifle for added leverage, (logically the Fenry should also take vibro-saber damage as well, but that would be more of a GM’s call/house rule thing and thus will not be applied here).

Melee Attack 3: Bloodhound, Boxer, and Doberman press their attack on Kil-rah, with all of them standing their ground to ensure better aimed shots, (no, not that kind of “Aimed”). Of the three, this time Boxer misses (doing 32 MD together). In response Kil-rah uses his claws to slash at the Doberman who dares to be in his face, (“claws” do 3D6 MD even though his lesser strength only does 2D6 MD on a punch, which is why he’s using them), aiming his claws at the Doberman’s exposed throat, (as per the melee rules detailed in Vampire Kingdoms where a person can declare that he is stabbing a vamp in the heart with a stake, with it counting as an ordinary melee attack). The Doberman tries to parry (with his +6 to Parry) but fails to do so! The Doberman’s neck is slashed open all the way back to the spine. He staggers back with his head barely attached, blood spurting out like an intermittent fountain of crimson, and then collapses. A few meters away, Shepherd blasts away at Shar-payn with his laser (11 MD), and as predicted Shar-payn launches his club of a paw-like hand. Again Shepherd uses the business end of his rifle’s bayonet to deflect the blow, rendering the attack harmless.

Melee Attack 4: Psi-Stalker finally shakes the circle of imaginary stars and chirping birds from around his head and sees what is happening. He is already one dog down and his best is facing the bigger of the two demon dogs all by himself. Seeing that the one that rammed him is visibly more so wounded, he joins Boxer and Bloodhound in shooting Kil-rah. Of the three pulses of laser light fired, two hit the beast (42 MD). Kil-rah staggers as his innards suffered one too many critical burns, and then collapses on the spot, (at minis 4 MD, rendering him unconscious). Shepherd, unaware of what’s happening behind him but praying that his Pack is keeping the other one occupied and off his back, fires off another laser into Shar-Payn’s center mass (11 MD). Seeing his hunting partner down and the other dog-things now free to attack him, Shar-payn decides to try to fall back … but where? Just wanting to get any distance to work with, he sole surviving Ferny turns and leaps into the air in the direction he came from. He lands some 50 feet away, but not exactly where he expected. The tremendous force of the half-ton deevil on landing ended up being more than enough to break through the Coliseum’s false ground, making Shar-payn crash down into the previously unseen structure beneath. At that sight, the crowd booed, robbed of the spectacle of seeing the wolf-monster fight any further.

Melee Attack 5: Psi-Stalker sees what just happened and lets out a groan. “Oh no he didn’t.” But just as he was about to move in to investigate, he realized that he didn’t sense the PPE release of the slain monster. Upon closer inspection he noticed that the breast was only unconscious and its wounds were already visibly healing. With that he walked up to the downed Ferny, placed a plasma grenade in its mouth, pulled the pin, and then ran away with the dogs quickly behind. After a few seconds the grenade exploded, completely misting the Ferny’s head and releasing its PPE spirit energy, which the Psi-Stalker depovered straight from the air.

It’s late and I’m getting punchy. This seems like a good place to put a bookmark in this scenario. The Dog Pack is down one mutt, but their MDC is still mostly intact. Meanwhile Shar-payn is now in the hypogeum under the Coliseum floor where he has a chance to even the odds, depending on how the Pack proceeds from there. Thus far I think this blow-for-blow play-out presentation has been fair, unbiased, and in the spirit of the scenario as given, taking into account all valid points that have been discussed so far. If anyone has any input on how you think the Pack should proceed or how Shar-payn should try to gain best advantage, now’s the time to speak up. All valid points will be addressed in the stunning conclusion of Rumble in the Roman Coliseum, Part 2 (electric bugaloo!!!).

[Lenwen]

whether he is intentionally playing the part or not you are feeding the troll. don't feed the troll, it only encourages them.

I've almost been banned .. for quite a bit less insult then this ..

[Killer Cyborg]

No official rule I know of for allowing called shots in melee, unless the ranged rules apply, in which case that power punch would take at least three attacks- one to aim, one to wind up, and one to attack.

That's way back in Vampire Kingdoms in the section about staking vamps in the heart in hand to hand melee, (which essentially says all you have to do is declare where you want the hit to go, and roll to attack as normal for melee combat, hitting on a 5 of better). This is where the Fenry will have a big advantage given that they themselves do not have a Hit By Location chart attached to their own personal MDCs, while the Dog Boys do on their body armors.

I almost mentioned that there IS a canon rule for called shots to the hearts of vampires, but since that's not applicable here, I didn't bother.
I know, you insist that it sets a precedent for all called shots in all melees against all opponents-
but I insist otherwise.

[Dead Boy]

No official rule I know of for allowing called shots in melee, unless the ranged rules apply, in which case that power punch would take at least three attacks- one to aim, one to wind up, and one to attack.

That's way back in Vampire Kingdoms in the section about staking vamps in the heart in hand to hand melee, (which essentially says all you have to do is declare where you want the hit to go, and roll to attack as normal for melee combat, hitting on a 5 of better). This is where the Fenry will have a big advantage given that they themselves do not have a Hit By Location chart attached to their own personal MDCs, while the Dog Boys do on their body armors.

I almost mentioned that there IS a canon rule for called shots to the hearts of vampires, but since that's not applicable here, I didn't bother.
I know, you insist that it sets a precedent for all called shots in all melees against all opponents-
but I insist otherwise.

Ok, defend your position. Why do you believe one can take a wooden stake and thrust it into the heart of a vampire in the heat of melee combat, (with it counting as a normal action that only has to be declared), but not take a knife and thrust it into the exposed throat of a Dog Boy, or a Ley Line Walker for that matter? Both seem to be targets of similar size and difficulty to hit, with both being targets that are roughly equally well protected in a scrap to the death.

It's like saying all the people that live in the outskirts of society are sure to freeze to death because they can't split wood to feed the fire. (equivalent of a melee called shot, or a "Designated Strike" as I've been calling it lately).

[Lenwen]

Ok, defend your position. Why do you believe one can take a wooden stake and thrust it into the heart of a vampire in the heat of melee combat, (with it counting as a normal action that only has to be declared), but not take a knife and thrust it into the exposed throat of a Dog Boy, or a Ley Line Walker for that matter? Both seem to be targets of similar size and difficulty to hit, with both being targets that are roughly equally well protected in a scrap to the death.

It's like saying all the people that live in the outskirts of society are sure to freeze to death because they can't split wood to feed the fire. (equivalent of a melee called shot, or a "Designated Strike" as I've been calling it lately).

Unfortunatly .. Dead Boy has a very VERY solid point right here ..

[Crazy Lou]

A very nice play by play Dead Boy!

I'd say it seems like the DP has the upper hand coming out of the first melee. But taking the fight out of an open field makes it much less certain.


I'd also have to agree that the vampire stake rules set a precedent, and also that logic would support that interpretation. In hand to hand combat, you can throw a punch at whatever you can see, and as long as it's not something silly and out of range of your arm (like punching somebody's foot while standing), it's no more difficult than going for center mass. In the case of kicks, it actually is much MORE likely to aim for something else, rather than the main body of the target.

[Killer Cyborg]

No official rule I know of for allowing called shots in melee, unless the ranged rules apply, in which case that power punch would take at least three attacks- one to aim, one to wind up, and one to attack.

That's way back in Vampire Kingdoms in the section about staking vamps in the heart in hand to hand melee, (which essentially says all you have to do is declare where you want the hit to go, and roll to attack as normal for melee combat, hitting on a 5 of better). This is where the Fenry will have a big advantage given that they themselves do not have a Hit By Location chart attached to their own personal MDCs, while the Dog Boys do on their body armors.

I almost mentioned that there IS a canon rule for called shots to the hearts of vampires, but since that's not applicable here, I didn't bother.
I know, you insist that it sets a precedent for all called shots in all melees against all opponents-
but I insist otherwise.

Ok, defend your position.

Already did, last time this came up.

Why do you believe one can take a wooden stake and thrust it into the heart of a vampire in the heat of melee combat, (with it counting as a normal action that only has to be declared), but not take a knife and thrust it into the exposed throat of a Dog Boy, or a Ley Line Walker for that matter? Both seem to be targets of similar size and difficulty to hit, with both being targets that are roughly equally well protected in a scrap to the death.

To answer a question with a question, do you believe that a natural 20 to strike means an automatic hit to the heart of ANY opponent?

It's like saying all the people that live in the outskirts of society are sure to freeze to death because they can't split wood to feed the fire. (equivalent of a melee called shot, or a "Designated Strike" as I've been calling it lately).

When you're splitting wood, you're not really making a called shot, just rolling for strike and damage as normal, with those rolls determining the accuracy of the shot. There's only one target that you're hittting; the log.
Or, if you're using a hammer and wedges, you're rolling to strike the wedge.

[Crazy Lou]

To answer a question with a question, do you believe that a natural 20 to strike means an automatic hit to the heart of ANY opponent?

To where the attacker THINKS the heart is anyway, yes. (for some D-Bees and monsters it would be a relevent issue).

Why not? It's not really any more unfair than calling a shot to the head and rolling a N20 to strike. In melee combat a PC who's fighting MD weilding opponents is usually wearing MDC armor (at least in my games, since I don't think it'd be that fair to have PCs jumped by MD opponents and no armor, as a single bad roll might mean instant death, which I'd say is unfair). And if they're fighting w/ SDC and no armor (or other SDC armor), then they're going to take double damage if attacker rolls an N20 anyway. A heart shot would probably (I don't remember seeing a rule specifically how to handle heart shots, but I'd probably just use the headshot optional rules) just be more HP damage, and more likely fatal.

[Shark_Force]

Why not? It's not really any more unfair than calling a shot to the head and rolling a N20 to strike

well, first of all, calling a shot to the head gives you a penalty to hit. secondly, it raises the minimum roll to hit. thirdly, it will cost you 3 actions. the melee rules for stabbing a vampire in the heart has none of those limitations. so yes, it *is* more unfair.

secondly, they're both a problem, because considerable portions of the population are running around wearing non-environmental armor, many forms of which do not include protection for such areas of the body as the head, the hands, the arms, the legs, the sides of the torso (millenium leaf armor, anyone?) and so forth. if these forms of armor can be so easily bypassed, then they become largely useless. if they become largely useless, then people wouldn't run around in them.

or, to put it another way: how many people have you ever seen choose cyber-armor? and i don't include cyber-knights in this, because they just get it without choosing to get it. next, ask yourself: how many people would feel comfortable entering MDC combat with only cyber-armor? essentially, it means that anyone who isn't either an MDC being or wearing full environmental body armor (and only full environmental body armor) is probably going to die if they fight anything even remotely intelligent.

[Killer Cyborg]

To answer a question with a question, do you believe that a natural 20 to strike means an automatic hit to the heart of ANY opponent?

To where the attacker THINKS the heart is anyway, yes. (for some D-Bees and monsters it would be a relevent issue).

Why not?

For one thing, there are plenty of other vital organs and you don't always WANT to hit the heart.

It's not really any more unfair than calling a shot to the head and rolling a N20 to strike.

Well, that's the thing- you couldn't DO that if every nat 20 is a heart shot.
Except against opponents with their hearts in their heads.

[Dead Boy]

Ok, defend your position.

Already did, last time this came up.

And your personal interpretation didn't prevail there either. But if we must talk this one out again, the so mote it be.

Why do you believe one can take a wooden stake and thrust it into the heart of a vampire in the heat of melee combat, (with it counting as a normal action that only has to be declared), but not take a knife and thrust it into the exposed throat of a Dog Boy, or a Ley Line Walker for that matter? Both seem to be targets of similar size and difficulty to hit, with both being targets that are roughly equally well protected in a scrap to the death.

To answer a question with a question, do you believe that a natural 20 to strike means an automatic hit to the heart of ANY opponent?

Firstly, all that's saying is that is the consequence of taking a Critical Hit if you happen to be a vampire. Others take double damage, vamps get a boo-boo straight to the heart with the resulting consequences from there dependent on the type of attack used. For instance, if they were shot with a silver bullet then that heart shot would have about a 50/50 chance of staying lodged in the heart (I'm not seeing the exact percentage just now). Should that bullet go through and through, then the heart shot will stun the vamp of 2 melee attacks. Should the attack be in the form of a wooden stake or melee weapon of silver, and should the player have the presence of mind to declare that he intends to have have his character leave the weapon in, then the vamp is placed into stasis from the hit to the heart; otherwise the vamp is stunned for 2 attacks as before.

Secondly, the reason why we know this is just a variation of a Critical Hit is because the rest is handled in exactly the same way. "... always strikes the heart unless the vampire's parry or dodge roll is a natural twenty." (VK 33) Which, if you recall, is exactly how any other natural twenty is handled, except everyone else just take double damage.

That's all there is to that. Don't try to make it out into something more than it is.

Now, the rule I'm citing is further up the page and deals specifically with hand to hand combat, as opposed to the rule you brought up which is a general one for ranged and melee combat alike.

"Close Range Attacks
A close range attack is the usual hand to hand combat or sword play. It encompasses a range up to 20 feet away, a distance that can be closed within one melee action (a few seconds) and close enough to have a good view of the target. From this range the character's normal attacks and bonuses apply. The only condition is that the combatant must state that he is "trying to pierce the heart" before he strikes. The player must announced a called shot for gun play or bow weapons. The vampire opponent gets his usual option to parry or dodge the close range attack." (VK 33)

Note that the rule expressly draws a distinction between ranged attacks, which require the use of a Called Shot and the baggage that comes along with that, and melee attacks, which only require the player to declare where he intends the strike to land on the opponent's person. This is crucial in determining what game mechanics apply and which ones don't. In this case, a pre-attack declaration of intent is the only condition that must be met, as opposed to the use of guns and bow weapons which also carry the burden of the Called Shot's requirement of extra time to draw a careful aim (with "Aim" being a whole other factor altogether these days). Hence, the Designated Strike is acceptable under canon... it's just advertised all that much because it has the potential to make the game vastly more deadly if overused.

It's like saying all the people that live in the outskirts of society are sure to freeze to death because they can't split wood to feed the fire. (equivalent of a melee called shot, or a "Designated Strike" as I've been calling it lately).

When you're splitting wood, you're not really making a called shot, just rolling for strike and damage as normal, with those rolls determining the accuracy of the shot. There's only one target that you're hitting; the log.
Or, if you're using a hammer and wedges, you're rolling to strike the wedge.

No, when splitting wood you need to hit the log on the very top at just the right angle. Wacking it on the side isn't going to get the desired results, nor is hitting it on the top at a 45-degree angle. To split the wood right you have to make the melee equivalent of a called shot, or you won't get the desired results.

[Killer Cyborg]

To answer a question with a question, do you believe that a natural 20 to strike means an automatic hit to the heart of ANY opponent?

Firstly, all that's saying is that is the consequence of taking a Critical Hit if you happen to be a vampire. Others take double damage, vamps get a boo-boo straight to the heart with the resulting consequences from there dependent on the type of attack used.

Right.
Because the rules for hitting a vampire with a natural 20 are different than the rules for hitting other people with a natural 20.
Because the rules for combat with vampires are slightly different than normal combat, because it goes with the cinematic flavor of fighting vampires.
Which is all the rule you're citing is- specific rules for fighting vampires, designed to meet a certain flavor.
If you roll a nat 20, you hit the vamp in the heart, even though it doesn't work this way with anybody else.
Likewise, if you want to make a called shot to a vampire's heart, there are rules for this that also don't apply to anybody else.

For instance, if they were shot with a silver bullet then that heart shot would have about a 50/50 chance of staying lodged in the heart (I'm not seeing the exact percentage just now).
Should that bullet go through and through, then the heart shot will stun the vamp of 2 melee attacks. Should the attack be in the form of a wooden stake or melee weapon of silver, and should the player have the presence of mind to declare that he intends to have have his character leave the weapon in, then the vamp is placed into stasis from the hit to the heart; otherwise the vamp is stunned for 2 attacks as before.

Yup.
All great examples of combat rules that apply to vampires, but not for anybody else.
Because that's what the rules in that section (and generally that book) are about- fighting vampires.

Secondly, the reason why we know this is just a variation of a Critical Hit is because the rest is handled in exactly the same way. "... always strikes the heart unless the vampire's parry or dodge roll is a natural twenty." (VK 33) Which, if you recall, is exactly how any other natural twenty is handled, except everyone else just take double damage.

lol
Right.
Well, I guess if ONE rule is the same, then they ALL must be.
Spiffy.

So if you attack anybody and roll a nat 20, then they're stabbed through the heart.
And there's a 50% chance the bullet lodges there.
And if it passes through, the enemy is always stunned for two rounds.
And so on.

And we know this, because there is that passage about needing a nat 20 to parry/dodge a nat 20 strike roll, and that's the same as the rules for fighting non-vampires, so ALL the rules must be the same.
Kudos.

Now, the rule I'm citing is further up the page and deals specifically with hand to hand combat, as opposed to the rule you brought up which is a general one for ranged and melee combat alike.

Oh, well, that's different.
I didn't realize that it was:
a) further down the page.
b) dealt with only melee combat.

Basic logic tells us that either one of those criteria mandate that the rule applies to non-vampires.
It's like the old truisms:
"If x is further down the page from a passage describing rules that only apply to combat with vampires, then x necessarily applies to all creatures everywhere, not just vampires."
and
"If a rule deals specifically with melee combat, then it necessarily applies to melee combat with all creatures, vampire and non-vampire alike, where if a rule includes ranged combat, then it necessarily applies to ONLY vampires."

Powerful points to bring up.

"Close Range Attacks
A close range attack is the usual hand to hand combat or sword play. It encompasses a range up to 20 feet away, a distance that can be closed within one melee action (a few seconds) and close enough to have a good view of the target. From this range the character's normal attacks and bonuses apply. The only condition is that the combatant must state that he is "trying to pierce the heart" before he strikes. The player must announced a called shot for gun play or bow weapons. The vampire opponent gets his usual option to parry or dodge the close range attack." (VK 33)

Note that the rule expressly draws a distinction between ranged attacks, which require the use of a Called Shot and the baggage that comes along with that, and melee attacks, which only require the player to declare where he intends the strike to land on the opponent's person. This is crucial in determining what game mechanics apply and which ones don't. In this case, a pre-attack declaration of intent is the only condition that must be met, as opposed to the use of guns and bow weapons which also carry the burden of the Called Shot's requirement of extra time to draw a careful aim (with "Aim" being a whole other factor altogether these days). Hence, the Designated Strike is acceptable under canon... it's just advertised all that much because it has the potential to make the game vastly more deadly if overused.

Okay, I'm even tired of making sarcastic responses.
Let me know when you come up with something real, that indicates that the rule applies to anything other than vampires.
For that matter, that it applies to anything other than hearts.

(For that matter, that it still applies post-RUE)

It's like saying all the people that live in the outskirts of society are sure to freeze to death because they can't split wood to feed the fire. (equivalent of a melee called shot, or a "Designated Strike" as I've been calling it lately).

When you're splitting wood, you're not really making a called shot, just rolling for strike and damage as normal, with those rolls determining the accuracy of the shot. There's only one target that you're hitting; the log.
Or, if you're using a hammer and wedges, you're rolling to strike the wedge.

No, when splitting wood you need to hit the log on the very top at just the right angle.

I've probably split more wood than you've seen.*
Hitting the flat end of a log doesn't require a called shot any more than hitting somebody in the chest instead of the side or back does.
You hit the part that's to you, and when you're splitting wood the top of the log is to you.

Unless you're using some radical Trick-Splitting techniques, where you spin the thing up in the air before you start swinging.




*"Tired" of making sarcastic remarks, not exhausted.

[Dead Boy]

To answer a question with a question, do you believe that a natural 20 to strike means an automatic hit to the heart of ANY opponent?

Firstly, all that's saying is that is the consequence of taking a Critical Hit if you happen to be a vampire. Others take double damage, vamps get a boo-boo straight to the heart with the resulting consequences from there dependent on the type of attack used.

Right.
Because the rules for hitting a vampire with a natural 20 are different than the rules for hitting other people with a natural 20.
Because the rules for combat with vampires are slightly different than normal combat, because it goes with the cinematic flavor of fighting vampires.
Which is all the rule you're citing is- specific rules for fighting vampires, designed to meet a certain flavor.
If you roll a nat 20, you hit the vamp in the heart, even though it doesn't work this way with anybody else.
Likewise, if you want to make a called shot to a vampire's heart, there are rules for this that also don't apply to anybody else.

Well, now that you bring it up, that happens to also be a place where the rules coincide. The difference is that they're just more streamlined in the presentation for fighting vampires in an attempt for easier game play. And just like with the tax code, all attempts to simplify things only result in making them more complicated later down the road.

In the old rules, in order to make a Called Shot you needed a 12 or higher to hit the mark with a ranged weapon. They also introduced penalties to hit in the earliest printings of Conversion Book 1 based off the size of the target and/or its difficulty to hit. Those penalties to hit always existed to one extent or another, but CB1 just made them more official. For instance if you look at virtually any vehicle's MDC by Location chart you'll find that some parts carry such penalties. I've seen them harsh as a -8, though it's usually around a -4. This has been carried over in RUE's Called Shot rules where an additional -3 to -4 can be pegged on for any reason the GM sees fit.

With that in mind that makes the Called Shot targeting a vampire's heart make that much more sense when looked at in its full context. 12 or better to hit for the Called shot, with an additional -7 to hit due to its size and/or its concealed nature (it is an internal organ, after all). That brings us up to the listed "19 or 20" in Vampire Kingdoms for a called shot on the heart at range, (also meaning that buy RUE rules, that should be changed to a straight -7 to hit penalty).

So you see, there's actually nothing special about Called Shots on a vampire's heart after all, just like the effects of a Natural 20 are effectively the same as a regular Critical Hit barring one special tweak, just like how the Close Range Attacks rules are applicable outside of the scope of vampire combat.

Now, you get back to me when you find any citing, (and I do mean ANY), from any Palladium Book published in the past 20 years that specifically deals with the rules covering melee combat's equivalent of the called shot. ANY!!!! Because till you do, you have nothing to stand on to back your case countering the use of the Close Range Attacks rule in an expanded capacity. Your heavy reliance on sarcasm and bully-tactics so far is only showing just how little else you have to prop up your argument. And for a change, I'd really, really like to have a debate with you that's reasonably civil all the way through.

[Killer Cyborg]

To answer a question with a question, do you believe that a natural 20 to strike means an automatic hit to the heart of ANY opponent?

Firstly, all that's saying is that is the consequence of taking a Critical Hit if you happen to be a vampire. Others take double damage, vamps get a boo-boo straight to the heart with the resulting consequences from there dependent on the type of attack used.

Right.
Because the rules for hitting a vampire with a natural 20 are different than the rules for hitting other people with a natural 20.
Because the rules for combat with vampires are slightly different than normal combat, because it goes with the cinematic flavor of fighting vampires.
Which is all the rule you're citing is- specific rules for fighting vampires, designed to meet a certain flavor.
If you roll a nat 20, you hit the vamp in the heart, even though it doesn't work this way with anybody else.
Likewise, if you want to make a called shot to a vampire's heart, there are rules for this that also don't apply to anybody else.

Well, now that you bring it up, that happens to also be a place where the rules coincide. The difference is that they're just more streamlined in the presentation for fighting vampires in an attempt for easier game play. And just like with the tax code, all attempts to simplify things only result in making them more complicated later down the road.

In the old rules, in order to make a Called Shot you needed a 12 or higher to hit the mark with a ranged weapon. They also introduced penalties to hit in the earliest printings of Conversion Book 1 based off the size of the target and/or its difficulty to hit. Those penalties to hit always existed to one extent or another, but CB1 just made them more official. For instance if you look at virtually any vehicle's MDC by Location chart you'll find that some parts carry such penalties. I've seen them harsh as a -8, though it's usually around a -4. This has been carried over in RUE's Called Shot rules where an additional -3 to -4 can be pegged on for any reason the GM sees fit.

With that in mind that makes the Called Shot targeting a vampire's heart make that much more sense when looked at in its full context. 12 or better to hit for the Called shot, with an additional -7 to hit due to its size and/or its concealed nature (it is an internal organ, after all). That brings us up to the listed "19 or 20" in Vampire Kingdoms for a called shot on the heart at range, (also meaning that buy RUE rules, that should be changed to a straight -7 to hit penalty).

So you see, there's actually nothing special about Called Shots on a vampire's heart after all, just like the effects of a Natural 20 are effectively the same as a regular Critical Hit barring one special tweak, just like how the Close Range Attacks rules are applicable outside of the scope of vampire combat.

That's just you guessing at stuff to support your own theory.

Still NOTHING there to indicate that this rule for fighting vampires is meant to apply to anything else.
Nothing to indicate that there is a -7 penalty to hit the heart specifically. Especially since everywhere else it just mentions the penalties, not increases the target number.
Just optimistic guessing.

Now, you get back to me when you find any citing, (and I do mean ANY), from any Palladium Book published in the past 20 years that specifically deals with the rules covering melee combat's equivalent of the called shot. ANY!!!! Because till you do, you have nothing to stand on to back your case countering the use of the Close Range Attacks rule in an expanded capacity.

Because somehow if I don't come up with rules dealing with melee called shots, because there aren't any, then this somehow negates my position that there are no rules for dealing with called shots in melee...?
(other than for dealing with vampires, that is)

Your heavy reliance on sarcasm and bully-tactics so far is only showing just how little else you have to prop up your argument. And for a change, I'd really, really like to have a debate with you that's reasonably civil all the way through.

It shows how much disdain I have for your argument in this thread.
I don't have distain for YOU- you've shown logic and good arguments in the past in other things- but so far all you've got here is wishes and smoke, making arguments so absurd ("it's lower down on the page" and "it deals only with melee combat") that mean so little that they're nothing but insulting nonsense.

You claim that this rule is supposed to apply to everybody, and to locations other than the heart, and that it applies post-RUE... but you've got nothing to actually support that wish of yours.

On the other hand, I point out that that same page has other rules ("Nat 20 always hits the heart") that clearly don't apply to combat against non-vampires, and you come back with... gibberish.

Nothing that indicates that the rules there for fighting vampires applies to other creatures.
Nothing that indicates that you can make called shots to any location in melee using this same rule.
Nothing.

Just "it still requires a natural 20 to parry," as if that had jack to do with anything, "the rule I'm citing is about melee," and "you need called shots to split wood."

If you don't want me to be sarcastic, then okay, I'll be serious:
Your end of this disappoints me- it's beneath you- for the reasons indicated by my sarcasm
-You imply in your post that the location of the rule on the page "further down" is important, as if somehow "further down" precludes any relevance or meaning.
This is simply and blatantly not true.
-You imply in your post that the fact that the rule specifies melee combat means anything, but again it does not.
This point does not contradict- in any way- anything that I have said in this thread, or any of the points that I made.
It doesn't even address them.
It makes no sense to even bring that up, especially in lieu of making an actual response to my points.

This is not sarcasm, and it's not bullying.
You made, for whatever reasons, an extremely crappy and nonsensical post, one that's below your usual standard.
Don't double the sin by huffing up now and acting like it deserved a serious response, because God knows it didn't, and hopefully you know this as well.

And please... "bullying"..?
You started this, and you set the tone. Don't complain about it now; if you wanted to avoid this, or engage in more polite and/or rational discourse, then you should have used some different opening moves.

The rule you're quoting is under the heading of: Penalties to stirke a Vamire's Heart.
It's about vampires.
If you think it's about anything else, then the burden of proof is on YOU.
Strict canon is with me*- the rule doesn't say anything about targets other than the hearts of vampires.



*Or rather, I'm with it, since I read that passage several times and looked at what it said (not what I wanted it to say) before I made up my mind about it.

[Dead Boy]

Now, you get back to me when you find any citing, (and I do mean ANY), from any Palladium Book published in the past 20 years that specifically deals with the rules covering melee combat's equivalent of the called shot. ANY!!!! Because till you do, you have nothing to stand on to back your case countering the use of the Close Range Attacks rule in an expanded capacity.

Because somehow if I don't come up with rules dealing with melee called shots, because there aren't any, then this somehow negates my position that there are no rules for dealing with called shots in melee...?

Correct. Any Palladium book ever published in the entire history of the company from any Palladium game will do nicely. Happy hunting.

If you don't like it, find me something better. No citing, too bad. Till then, the consensus here is in agreement with me that the rule is applicable outside of Vampire combat.

But if it makes you feel better, I'll sent Kev a PM and ask him what he thinks since he is the ultimate authority on these things.

The rule you're quoting is under the heading of: Penalties to strike a Vampire's Heart.

... and you can't possibly see how that would be considered a melee called shot? That's just sad, dude. I'd suggest you step back and reexamine the logic of what you just said.


Now, with no further objections to Part One of Rumble in the Coliseum, I now present to you
Part Two: Hysteria in the Hypogeum
(Note: All rolls to hit, parry and dodge in the following were determined using DiceLab 2.0 freeware to remove all personal bias. All damage values continue to be average

The Psi-Stalker, full yummy PPE goodness, looked to where the other Fenry Demon Wolf went and saw the hole in the Coliseum floor where it landed and crashed through. Then he glanced back at the other Fenry, now dead, and noticed that the place where the plasma grenade went off not only misted the monster’s head, but also blew a hole of its own in the sand-covered floor. Not being stupid enough to follow directly where a trap could be waiting, he ordered his three surviving Dog Boys to check out the hole on their end.

The Boxer withdrew his flashlight and scoped out the dark cavern below. Below he could see the floor some 20 feet down along with several visible rams, pulleys and cages from his vantage alone. With that established Bloodhound quickly pounded two spikes into the floor with his small utility hammer while Shepherd prepared his rope for them to climb down it. They considered tying the rope off on the 700 pound body of the dead demon, but it had already began to smoke and deteriorate, so it was obvious it wouldn’t be there for long. With the rope secured to the two spikes the Psi-Stalker was the first to slide down into the understructure. The dogs were quick to follow, each taking up defensive positions, but know they have time for any further preparations as their psychic senses tell them where the Ferny is and how far away it stands. With a hunting strategy in mind, the Psi-Stalker tells his dogs, “We all saw what that other one did to Dobie. We need to take this one down quick and dirty. Boxer, get your Neural Mace ready to go. You and me are going to try to put the whammy on him. But he doesn’t look receptive after the first few hits, back off and go to the gun. … And be careful of those claws, guys. Me and Shepherd will stay up front and take the heat, but he’s quick so stay on your toes. ” With the battle plan set, the pack went hunting following the demon’s strong scent of the supernatural and the raw evil it radiated.

Across the hypogeum, the Ferny stews and plans, while allowing the wounds he suffered to heal at their substantially accelerated rate. After a few minutes, he stands on all fours and proceeds to Prowl (35%) as best he can, tracking his prey. Specifically, the Demon Wolf locks onto the smell of the blood of the slain dog-thing that spattered on the others who were standing nearby when it was decapitated by Kil-rah. That’s all he needed, just a trace amount to know where they were. Cautiously, he neared, sensing that they too were closing in on him.

After a few minutes for cat and mouse, (both parties believing the other to be the mouse), Shar-payn and the Dog Pack caught sight of one another. Shar-payn could see that this time there was no fear in their eyes (the Horror Factor card has already been played), and this time they were read for him. However he had a few tricks he could pull out of his orifice as well. Being able to smell their close proximity well before they could see each other, Shar-payn used the time to warm up his power of Intuitive Combat. However, if he were sensitive to psychic powers as the dogs were, he would know that the German Shepherd was doing the exact same thing.

Skirmish 2 ~ Meleee Attack 1: Shar-payn has the initiative this time around and begins to charge the dogs. As he rapidly closes the distance he also activates his power of Telekinesis, dumping in a large investment of IPS in the process (16 ISP). The dogs in return open fire with the weapons they have drawn. Psi-Stalker and Boxer take the front of the staggered 2x2 formation, (the corridor will not accommodate more than two at a time effectively without crowing and blocking the back row’s shots), each with a neural mace in one hand and a pistol in the other, (a C-5 pump pistol & C-18 laser respectively), while Bloodhound and Shepherd have their rifles up and ready to go. They fire at the charging beast, with Shepherd missing the mark (randomly determined who missed; sum of averaged damages = 40MD taken).

Skirmish 2 ~ Melee Attack 2: Shar-payn feinted a claw strike, but instead reached out with his mind and locked onto Shepherd’s C-14 rifle since it and it’s vibro-bayonet gave him such a hard time last fight. With 100 lbs of force, the rifle was telekinetically yanked from his hands and held aloft some 10 feet above Shepherd’s head, near the high ceiling. In response, without missing a beat, Shepherd drew his C-18 and opened fire (Wild Shot, -6 to hit, less +3 WP, nets -3 to hit). Shepherd’s shot misses the mark again while Bloodhound’s laser pulse nails Shar-payn between the eyes (not a critical hit, and no listed MDC by location, so just 21 MD). As that happens Psi-Stalker and Boxer go in low, both hitting the Ferny with their Nerual Maces. The lack of effects are obvious given what usually happens (even when the target make a successful save, something usually happens, especially with two hits) instantly leading the Psi-Stalker to realize that the maces will have no effect on this prey. It’s not the first time this has happened, but the Stalker curses that it didn’t. He and his dogs really needed a break today. “Fall back, Boxer!” the Stalker orders, as he remains up front.

Skirmish 2 ~ Melee Attack 3: Shar-payn jogs to the left as far as the corridor will allow so he can get slash in on the Boxer’s exposed bare arm, not covered by his partial armor. However the Boxer (+6 to Parry vs +5 to Strike; again randomly determined) manages to put his Neural Mace between himself and the claws, (mace has 100 MDC, so it’s good for 10 or so direct blows and an infinite number parries). Boxer backs away from the threat, leaving Psi-Stalker to take the front alone while the three dogs provide support fire from behind. All four members of the Dog Pack’s shots hit the Ferny, with Shepherd scoring a critical hit (randomly determined, inflicting 50 MD altogether)

Skirmish 2 ~ Melee Attack 4: Shar-payn, sensing that he might not survive another volley of blasts (present is MDC: 39), decides to take heed to the old saying, “he who turns and runs away, lives to fight another day.” So with a grunt and a spring of his hind legs, he makes a vertical leap headlong into the ceiling. With a bang Shar-payn rams through the wooden structure sending a rain of splinters, shrapnel, and sand falling in his wake. Though the others cease fire, Shepherd, using his supernatural-sensing sense, takes one last shot at him blindly through the ceiling as where he suspects the Ferny landed, (-10 blind shot) but the laser hit nothing but air on the other side.

The dog pack takes stock of what happened. It’s obvious to them that the Neural Maces won’t work, but it has become apparent that the monster is incapable of facing their fire for much more than ten seconds at a time. Psi-Stalker orders them back to the rope line so them can pursue and finish the job, but also tells them all to reload along the way so they can keep the heat on. Shepherd looks around for his C-14 but discovers that it is gone and nowhere to be seen. Consequently the Psi-stalker gives him his CP-40 to use instead.

Above Shar-payn stands under the blazing sun and the cheering crowd hoots and applauds his return to their viewing eyes. But the Ferny ignores them. Though annoying, he has bigger concerns. Instinctively he knows on some level that there is some unseen force keeping him inside the battle area of the Coliseum floor. It was just a fluke that he was able to get down into the understructure at all, (and as it turned out, a very fortunate one because he would have been as dead as fried chicken if not for the ability to get out of the dog’s line of fire). As his wounds begin to heal anew, again, he ponders why he wasn’t able to sneak up on his prey. He rolled a 01% on his Prowl skill after all. It should have worked! Clearly Shar-payn needed to know more about these dog-things. And with a thought, the confiscated C-14 rifle that he took with him levitated into the grasp of his paw-like hands. The Ferny closed his eyes and began to use the power of Object Read. In a matter of moments his mind’s eye began to see and tell him of the “Dog Boy’s” ability to track and kill monsters such as he… especially with the Dog Boy’s amazing psychic tracking powers. “Bingo.” Shar-payn smiled.

Below in the hypogeum, the dogs and Psi-Stalker reached the rope. Reaching out with their sense they could feel the demon was still a ways off. “Ok, Shepherd, get up there and secure the area while we follow.” In response Shepherd renewed his power of Intuitive Combat and scrambled up the rope. Half way up, his sense of where the wolf-monster suddenly began to disappear! Was he moving out or range? Was he teleporting? What was going on? After a moment, even the presence of the monster’s ‘evil’ could no long be sensed. Below, the same questions were being asked by the Dog Pack as they lost track of the demon as well. (Shar-payn activated Mask ISP & Psi, Mask PPE, Alter Aura, and Mind Block; and is now undetectable to their automatic senses, as per the results of another topic recently discussed). “What the f*** is going on?!?” the Psi-Stalker rhetorically asked, looking around in dismay. In the back of his mind, though he knew this was technically possible, he had never come across any monsters with all the psychic powers necessary to pull it off. It was such a rarity, this sort of scenario was only briefly covered in his training… What did his instructors say again?

Shepherd reached the top of the rope and flung himself onto the sand-covered platform, instantly looking for where the beast was. The crowd roared upon seeing the dog, since that meant that the show wasn’t over yet, even if some booed angry about not being able to see all of the action thus far. The German Shepherd looked all around his position, but there was nothing to be seen! Quickly he yelled down the hole, “He’s not up here!” With the jolt of that alarming information, the Psi-Stalker remembered what his instructors said; use the power of Presence Sense, (random 1 in 24 chance each one has it), which of course none of the dogs nor the Stalker had.

Just then the Bloodhound started sniffing the air as a few stray molecules entered his nose, and the Boxer’s ears reflexively turned in the direction of a noise inaudible to the Psi-Stalker. “He’s dowwwwn heeeere.” the Bloodhound sung, shouldering his CP-40 in anticipation. With the Boxer halfway up the rope, the Psi-Stalker had to make a snap decision and ordered the dog to slide back down… but it was too late. With lighting speed the Ferny Demon Wolf sprung from the shadows of the hypogeum’s maze and pounced.

Skirmish 3 ~ Melee Attack 1: Shar-payn thinks he’s about to enjoying a surprise attack this time, using his speed and concealing combination of psychic powers to catch them as off-guard as the Dog Pack is going to get. As soon as the dogs were in sight, he leapt into the air full force, jaws wide open, with the Boxer in his sights. This is not a close quarters attack (launched from greater than 20 feet away), so he can’t make a Directed Strike at any particular body part. However, the Boxer’s power of Sixth Sense goes off while suspended in the air, holding on to the rope, and easy pickings. Having seen what theses monsters can do in close quarters and having no means of parrying the attack just now, he lets go of the rope and hopes gravity will move him out of the way,(in game terms, he makes a Dodge). Despite his efforts and above average odds of making it (+1RCC+3HtH+1Skill+3Sixth to Dodge vs +4RCC+1PsiIC to Strike) Boxer was clotheslined off the rope with a heavy swat (14 MD) and carried to the ground with a heavy thud. Boxer found himself flat on his back with the Ferny perched on his chest, its heft heavy on his armor’s breast-plate like a ton of bricks. Bloodhound and the Psi-Stalker, both also benefitting from his power of 6th Sense, weren’t taken entirely by surprise either. After having tracked the Fenry’s leap with the muzzle of his rifle, he let loose a pulse of laser light. Unfortunately it missed the mark. Stalker’s shot on the other hand landed on the demon’s hind quarters. (14 MD)

Skirmisn 3 ~ Melee Attack 2: With the Boxer held under the Ferny’s 1000 pound girth for the moment, secured by one paw, Shar-payn splayed the claws on his other paw and slashed at the helpless Dog Boy’s unprotected throat. In his defense, Boxer raised a vambrace-armored arm to try to block the slice. Shar-payn’s claws were greeted by a set of humming vibro-claws affixed to the vambrace, specifically designed for rapid deployment in situations much like this where split-seconds count. With the demon’s back to them, presenting a tempting target, the Psi-Stalker and Bloodhound opened fire with impunity, both scoring hits (35 MD). Shepherd up above needed only to move to the side of the hole to gain the perfect shooting vantage. After firing at the Fenry’s hip (21 MD inflicted) Shepherd cried to the heavens, “WHY?!?!? Why doesn’t this thing have a MDC by Location chart like the rest of us do?!? That way we could just shoot his friggin’ legs out from under him so the mother hummer can’t just leap away again! And for that matter, why oh why are we stuck starting newbie weapons, when as 5th level characters we would have surely by now beefed up our gear to something more diversified and effective as suggested in Lone Star. Page 48 that clearly states that Dog Boys in the field often add/purchase other unofficial, non-Coalition weapons for their personal equipment. That way we’d have at least one NG T-8 Taser Rifle which states in no ambiguous language that its stunning effects work on the supernatural. Even a Net Gun would be something! Flash-bangs, Olterk mace, friggn’ MDC duct tape… ANYTHING!!! And why is our complement of dogs so mundane? Had we even a single Kill Hound we might have more options. Why has the orchestrator of this scenario tied our hands in such a way that we have none of the options, and can employ tactics, that we would in a normal game setting? Is he deliberately trying to tilt the tables so it’s impossible for us to win?” With that out of his system the German Shepherd regained his composure and went back to the job of killing the demon as though his ranting were nothing more than a Shakespearian soliloquy that had in fact taken no time at all.

Skirmish 3 ~ Melee Attack 3: Shar-payn decided to take the pain from the others and finish off at least this one dog, and tried to take a sizable bite out of Boxer’s face. Again the vibro-blades affixed to the Boxer’s vambraces deflected the attack, just narrowly. While the others fired into the Fenry’s back and hind quarters, (with Shepherd’s shot hitting the well, making for 35 MD), Boxer tried something different. Using his Wrestling skills, he tried to use leverage against the beast and twist himself into a pinning position. While he made progress (natural 6 on a D20), he failed to make it work.

Skirmish 3 ~ Melee Attack 4: Shar-payn began to feel too vulnerable and decided to try to escape once more. Though not too hurt (down to 45 MDC), his prey’s weapons were too powerful and could finish him off if he stayed and pressed his luck. So, as he did before with great success, he gave his hind legs a powerful thrust, propelling himself through the ceiling of the hypogeum where the Dog’s guns would not be able to shot at him for a while longer. Again with a crash the Ferny smashed a hole in the Coliseum floor to the cheering crowd’s delight, but this time he was not alone on top. Shepherd didn’t so much as blink, half way expecting this given the demon dog’s history of hit and run tactics. The Dog Boy drew a bead on Shar-payn and lit him up. (21 MD taken)

Skirmish 3 ~ Melee Attack 5: As the rest of the Dog Pack scrambled to get up the rope, Boxer first, Shar-payn found himself with a choice to make. Make a hole to escape through again, or take this dog out … this mortal, squishy, annoying, dog-thing who was all alone, and worse yet, made him look bad before. When he thought about it that way, his deevil pride offered him no choice at all. Shar-payn turned and charged Shepherd head on, using his fantastic speed to close the gap in no time, paws first to put the thump on him. However, like before, because of the range Shar-payn could not land the blow on any of the dog’s unarmored parts. Shepherd took a solid wack to the shoulder (14 MD), but was still in good shape; till then his armor was still pristine. The Dog Boy quickly countered with a pulse from his laser rifle at point blank range, burning the demon’s eye out of its socket (call it dramatic effect; 21 MD).

Skirmish 3 ~ Melee Attack 6:: The Psi-Stalker (being the only one with any attacks left) saw the Ferny return to fight Shepherd by the hole and spied it standing near the opening just overhead. Seeing a target of opportunity, he took quick aim with his C-5 and squeezed the trigger. The explosive round went through the bottom of Shar-payn’s chin and blasted his brains out of the top of the Ferny’s head. The Demon Wolf staggered for a moment and then collapsed unconscious. Immediately after the sound of the Ferny’s body made its distinctive 1000 lb thud on the ceiling above, the Psi-Stalker screamed at the top of his lungs, “KILL IT!!! KILL IT NOW!!!” Shepherd wasted no time and emptied his weapon’s clip throughout the entire next melee round just to make sure the Ferny was dead, even though the first pulse was enough to do the trick.

Post-Fight Analysis:
Firstly, the Ferny only had a chance against the Dog Pack because of their innate bio-regen power and hit & run tactics. Tactics that were only made available by Lenwen by making the hypogeum (underground structure) of the Coliseum accessible after it became apparent that even with a seemingly stacked deck, (only 4 dogs when 6 -10 is more likely in a pack, starting equipment only, …), that the Dog Pack would win every time despite this.

Secondly, ultimately it came down to two factors that couldn’t be overlooked, them being what few skills and options the Pack had left to it and the Ferny’s own pride. When it came to what the dogs could do, after the hit & run tactics were employed, their best bet was to try to incapacitate the Ferny somehow. Lacking the strength to do that against the above-average strengthen deevil, and lacking a Kill Hound or two who could just muscle it around, their best bet was the use of the Wrestling skill and its ability to Pin. This pin, as described in the book, is inescapable by the rules. Though the Ferny might have been able to kill the dog pinning him, it would have bought the rest time to mist him into a bad dream. I also considered using various Holds on him but the problems there were none of them were level 7 (where Holds become available in HtH Martial Arts), and the question of whether those with the Wrestling skill have access to Holds.

The other factor that had to be taken into consideration was just how long would the Fenry suffer the humiliation of having to run away from petty mortals. The Dyval book goes into a fair amount of detail in its earlier pages on how they look down on mortals and see them as lesser beings. So given the right circumstances, would an above average powered Ferny Demon Wolf (who are not all that bright in the first place with an average IQ of 9) back down from a single mortal foe even if it were injured? Ultimately, given that they are proud, contemptful, animalistic, and immortal, the answer has to be ‘no’. And that’s why Shar-payn died in the end.

[Lenwen]

That is sure a 1 sided (Decidedly) Coalition favoring way to put the Demons into dumb mode .. and make the Dogboys smarter then they really are ..

Good way to place an advantage over the Fenry ..



And that inescapable hold .. when you try that on some one with Supernatural strength .. means your death .. there is no way that some one with normal human strength limits is going to hold for even 1 melee action (3-4 seconds) something with Supernatural Strength .. with out that Supernaturally strong character breaking that hold rather easily .. I might add

But in your scenario .. I guess it works .. hahaa

[Lenwen]

placed a plasma grenade in its mouth, pulled the pin, and then ran away with the dogs quickly behind. After a few seconds the grenade exploded, completely misting the Ferny’s head

You said you were taking average Damage if I remember correctly .. Plasma Granades 6d6 =36/2 = 18 damage taken .. That is not enough to mist the head of a MDC being ..

Sorry not buying that one either .. lol

[Cybermancer]

That is sure a 1 sided (Decidedly) Coalition favoring way to put the Demons into dumb mode .. and make the Dogboys smarter then they really are ..

Good way to place an advantage over the Fenry ..



And that inescapable hold .. when you try that on some one with Supernatural strength .. means your death .. there is no way that some one with normal human strength limits is going to hold for even 1 melee action (3-4 seconds) something with Supernatural Strength .. with out that Supernaturally strong character breaking that hold rather easily .. I might add

But in your scenario .. I guess it works .. hahaa

Dog Boy's roll 3D6 for I.Q. just like humans. That means they have human intellect. Since a human wrote this scenerio, it is inherently impossible for that human to write the Dog Boys with greater than human intellect. The writer is inherently restrained by the limitations of having a human intellect. It would be possible to write something with less than human intellect as being smarter than they really are, all the way up to actual human intellect but that is not the case with Dog Boys. Because they roll the same and therefore have the same intellect as humans. In fact, some Dog Boy breeds are given IQ bonuses, making those breeds smarter than average humans.

Therefore, no intellect advantage was or even could have been granted to the Dog Boys in this scenerio. The only ones that could have potentially been portrayed smarter than they really are, are in fact, the Fenry.

As for the wrestling hold, for all your ranting, it failed anyway so had no bearing on the outcome. So your argument becomes null and void before it even starts.

You said you were taking average Damage if I remember correctly .. Plasma Granades 6d6 =36/2 = 18 damage taken .. That is not enough to mist the head of a MDC being ..

Sorry not buying that one either .. lol

placed a plasma grenade in its mouth, pulled the pin, and then ran away with the dogs quickly behind. After a few seconds the grenade exploded, completely misting the Ferny’s head

You said you were taking average Damage if I remember correctly .. Plasma Granades 6d6 =36/2 = 18 damage taken .. That is not enough to mist the head of a MDC being ..

Sorry not buying that one either .. lol

The grenade does not exist in a vacuum, it does it's damage after the demon has already taken quite a bit. It is the finishing move that depletes the remaining MDC of the demon. No matter how you want to describe it's death verbally, the bottom line is that it is out of MDC. And frankly, describing a grenade that depletes a monsters last MDC fits with what we know about both grenades and heads so it becomes easy to envision. Also, the average of D6 is not 3, it is 3.5 making the average of 6D6=21.

Sorry that your favorite pony in this contest didn't win but being a sore loser about it isn't going to prove your point to anyone.

[Lenwen]

The grenade does not exist in a vacuum, it does it's damage after the demon has already taken quite a bit. It is the finishing move that depletes the remaining MDC of the demon. No matter how you want to describe it's death verbally, the bottom line is that it is out of MDC. And frankly, describing a grenade that depletes a monsters last MDC fits with what we know about both grenades and heads so it becomes easy to envision. Also, the average of D6 is not 3, it is 3.5 making the average of 6D6=21.

6 times 6 max = 36 divided by 2 (Average) is what again ?

Thought so ..

Sorry that your favorite pony in this contest didn't win but being a sore loser about it isn't going to prove your point to anyone.

Ahh so this is what Flame baiting looks like huh ?

[Cybermancer]

The grenade does not exist in a vacuum, it does it's damage after the demon has already taken quite a bit. It is the finishing move that depletes the remaining MDC of the demon. No matter how you want to describe it's death verbally, the bottom line is that it is out of MDC. And frankly, describing a grenade that depletes a monsters last MDC fits with what we know about both grenades and heads so it becomes easy to envision. Also, the average of D6 is not 3, it is 3.5 making the average of 6D6=21.

6 times 6 max = 36 divided by 2 (Average) is what again ?

Thought so ..

That's not how you determine the average, that's how you determine the medium.

To determine average you add 1+2+3+4+5+6 (all possible rolls on a D6) and you get 21. You divide the sum (21) by the total number (6) of numbers used. The result (3.5) is your average. When trying to discredit a post, and more, trying to be smug about it, be sure of your facts and numbers first.

Sorry that your favorite pony in this contest didn't win but being a sore loser about it isn't going to prove your point to anyone.

Ahh so this is what Flame baiting looks like huh ?

Hardly.

[Lenwen]

The grenade does not exist in a vacuum, it does it's damage after the demon has already taken quite a bit. It is the finishing move that depletes the remaining MDC of the demon. No matter how you want to describe it's death verbally, the bottom line is that it is out of MDC. And frankly, describing a grenade that depletes a monsters last MDC fits with what we know about both grenades and heads so it becomes easy to envision. Also, the average of D6 is not 3, it is 3.5 making the average of 6D6=21.

6 times 6 max = 36 divided by 2 (Average) is what again ?

Thought so ..

That's not how you determine the average, that's how you determine the medium.

To determine average you add 1+2+3+4+5+6 (all possible rolls on a D6) and you get 21. You divide the sum (21) by the total number (6) of numbers used. The result (3.5) is your average. When trying to discredit a post, and more, trying to be smug about it, be sure of your facts and numbers first.

Sorry that your favorite pony in this contest didn't win but being a sore loser about it isn't going to prove your point to anyone.

Ahh so this is what Flame baiting looks like huh ?

Hardly.

Cause Name calling .. is such a solid tactic to proving one's point ..

[Cybermancer]

I've backed my point up with numbers and math. You've backed yours up with... accusations and... well, that's about it.

[Lenwen]

I've backed my point up with numbers and math. You've backed yours up with... accusations and... well, that's about it.

And which points were that ?

I've asked a battle type scenario question.

The only math that need be applied here is the rolls and hits and damage taken. Then the Regeneration of the Fenry ..

I've asked questions about the battle I've stated my opinion on the subject at hand ..

And you called me a name .. in as clear a case of Flame baiting I've seen to date on this site .. yet you say it was not ..

Allow me to ask you this question ..

Do you always flame bait other people who disagree with you in any way shape or form ?

[Cybermancer]

I've backed my point up with numbers and math. You've backed yours up with... accusations and... well, that's about it.

And which points were that ?

I've asked a battle type scenario question.

The only math that need be applied here is the rolls and hits and damage taken. Then the Regeneration of the Fenry ..

I've asked questions about the battle I've stated my opinion on the subject at hand ..

The grenade does not exist in a vacuum, it does it's damage after the demon has already taken quite a bit. It is the finishing move that depletes the remaining MDC of the demon. No matter how you want to describe it's death verbally, the bottom line is that it is out of MDC. And frankly, describing a grenade that depletes a monsters last MDC fits with what we know about both grenades and heads so it becomes easy to envision. Also, the average of D6 is not 3, it is 3.5 making the average of 6D6=21.

6 times 6 max = 36 divided by 2 (Average) is what again ?

Thought so ..

That's not how you determine the average, that's how you determine the medium.

To determine average you add 1+2+3+4+5+6 (all possible rolls on a D6) and you get 21. You divide the sum (21) by the total number (6) of numbers used. The result (3.5) is your average. When trying to discredit a post, and more, trying to be smug about it, be sure of your facts and numbers first.

This is the math I'm referring to, where I refute your claims of the average damage of a grenade. I have provided the proper math and figures to support my claim.

So again, I have provided my math and facts to support what I've been saying.

And you called me a name .. in as clear a case of Flame baiting I've seen to date on this site .. yet you say it was not ..

Allow me to ask you this question ..

Do you always flame bait other people who disagree with you in any way shape or form ?

I do not feel that calling someone who is acting like a sore loser, a sore loser to be an insult. It is simply an observation of behavior. You've lost and you're being sore about it.

Your question on the other hand, is just another form of accusation being used to try and lure me into an arguement with you. So again, you're attempting to use accusations instead of actually trying to back your arguments up.

[Lenwen]

I do not feel that calling someone who is acting like a sore loser, a sore loser to be an insult. It is simply an observation of behavior. You've lost and you're being sore about it.

And again .. I hate to see you in a debat about anything .. because you clearly .. insult anyone who disagree's with anything you say ..

Your form of accusation being used to try and lure me into an arguement with you.

WHOA .. this is classic ...

You are the person name calling .. and I am the one trying to get you to argue with me ?

Seriously ... do you read this stuff before you post it ?

holy crap this is rich ..

[Cybermancer]

I do not feel that calling someone who is acting like a sore loser, a sore loser to be an insult. It is simply an observation of behavior. You've lost and you're being sore about it.

And again .. I hate to see you in a debat about anything .. because you clearly .. insult anyone who disagree's with anything you say ..

Then by all means, add me to your foe list and you won't have to see any of these posts of me allegedly insulting anyone who disagrees with me.

Your form of accusation being used to try and lure me into an arguement with you.

WHOA .. this is classic ...

You are the person name calling .. and I am the one trying to get you to argue with me ?

Seriously ... do you read this stuff before you post it ?

holy crap this is rich ..

If the post has offended you, then by all means, report it. You know what, nevermind. I'll report myself. Clearly we're not going to agree on this so it seems reasonable to bring in an unbiased mod to indicate if any lines have been crossed.

[Lenwen]

Well said .

[MikelAmroni]

Lenwen, seriously. All you are doing is "nuh uh, cause I said so." to each of his statements. Let it go. And for the record, Dead Boy was not only more than fair to the Fenry, he was even a bit partial. The fenry has BELOW average human intelligence, and has access to no lores or anything which would suggest he would figure out the source of the Dog Pack's ability to sense them. But he granted that (for all the good it did, after all, as we stated during that portion of the arguement, its not fool proof). The only thing I would have done differently for the Fenry at that point was to have him get away, hide, and try and teleport out, and then, failing that, come at them again. But Dead Boy prolly just wanted to finish the scenario (and who can blame him really), so he had the Fenry use the blunt force tactic of "take one down if I am going to die" - which, I will add, is in the character of the fenry.

And Cybermancer is exactly right about how you figure average die, for the record. the average of a d4 is 2.5, d6 is 3.5, d8 is 4.5, d10 is 5.5, etc. Once you have average die, then you multiply it by number of dice in the roll. The only difference is one of how you handle the remainder, since you can't have an actual half result on the die. I tend to round down when there is a decimal, Dead Boy stated he was goign to round up. Since he applied it to both parties equally, there is no harm done. Its honestly the choice of whoever is crunching the numbers. I know you have a serious hate for all things Coalition, but the simple fact is for the scenario you suggested, they had the advantage. Its what they were meant to do. And the loss ratio was perfect as far as the CS would have been concerned. Two dead demons, tough ones at that, for one dead dogboy, some busted up basic equipment, and a dog pack that had earned a rest.

For the record, I wouldn't have used the called shot in melee, so he actually killed a dogboy quicker than I would have.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, you get back to me when you find any citing, (and I do mean ANY), from any Palladium Book published in the past 20 years that specifically deals with the rules covering melee combat's equivalent of the called shot. ANY!!!! Because till you do, you have nothing to stand on to back your case countering the use of the Close Range Attacks rule in an expanded capacity.

Because somehow if I don't come up with rules dealing with melee called shots, because there aren't any, then this somehow negates my position that there are no rules for dealing with called shots in melee...?

Correct. Any Palladium book ever published in the entire history of the company from any Palladium game will do nicely. Happy hunting.

I'm going to have to assume that you're joking, that you don't really think that demonstrating my position would somehow negate my position.
That, or you misread something somewhere.

If you don't like it, find me something better. No citing, too bad. Till then, the consensus here is in agreement with me that the rule is applicable outside of Vampire combat.

The consensus being you?
Maybe you and Lenwen?

Doesn't really matter who it is, though, because reality isn't a democracy.
The rule is for vampires, so that's all that it applies to.
Period.

But if it makes you feel better, I'll sent Kev a PM and ask him what he thinks since he is the ultimate authority on these things.

Please do.

The rule you're quoting is under the heading of: Penalties to strike a Vampire's Heart.

... and you can't possibly see how that would be considered a melee called shot? That's just sad, dude. I'd suggest you step back and reexamine the logic of what you just said.

You should examine what I just said, because I never said that it wasn't a melee called shot.

What I said was:

The rule you're quoting is under the heading of: Penalties to stirke a Vamire's Heart.
It's about vampires.
If you think it's about anything else, then the burden of proof is on YOU.

I'm not sure why you apparently ignored the bolded portion, especially since the underlined is showing exactly why I made that first sentence- the fact that the rule is under "Penalties to Strike A Vampire's Heart" shows that the rules are only for striking the hearts of vampires, not anything else.

[Crazy Lou]

Even though I choose to see the vampire rule as setting a precedent, since it's merely interpretation here, I also think it's equally valid to interpret the rule in question as being exclusive.

Interpretations can vary, even conflict, and still both be valid. Kinda like how the Supreme Court can interpret the constitution one way, then reverse its interpretation later. It wasn't "wrong" the first time, the court just changed it's interpretation. (I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across).

Also, technically isn't Kevin's opinion not actually canon unless published? Which is why when he runs a game the way he want to (from his own descriptions is generally being fast and loose with the rules), he's not saying canon's wrong, it's just how he would run it?

[Killer Cyborg]

Even though I choose to see the vampire rule as setting a precedent, since it's merely interpretation here, I also think it's equally valid to interpret the rule in question as being exclusive.

And there you go.
Best case scenario, it set a possible precedent, which isn't the same as being an actual rule.
And since it was done WAY back pre-RUE, there's no way of knowing how it would/should work today even if it DID set a precedent.

Also, technically isn't Kevin's opinion not actually canon unless published? Which is why when he runs a game the way he want to (from his own descriptions is generally being fast and loose with the rules), he's not saying canon's wrong, it's just how he would run it?

When he's saying what the rules are, his answers are canon.
When he's just saying how he plays, that's just how he plays.

[Mack]

Lock Warning.

Play nice folks. If you can't, don't post.

[Mack]

6 times 6 max = 36 divided by 2 (Average) is what again ?

Thought so ..

Completely incorrect. For the distribution that a die creates, the average is equal to the Minimum plus the Maximum, then divide by two.

The average of 1D6 is 3.5. (1+6)/2 = 3.5
The average of 2D6 is 7. (2+12)/2 = 7
The average of 6D6 is 21. (6+36)/2 = 21

[Dead Boy]

That is sure a 1 sided (Decidedly) Coalition favoring way to put the Demons into dumb mode .. and make the Dogboys smarter then they really are ..

Good way to place an advantage over the Fenry ..

The advantage?!?!? You mean like how I deliberately did not give the Dog Pack the most powerful weapons they were entitled to? Or like how I did not have them always concentrating their fire on one Ferny at a time for maximum killing-effect? Or like how did not have them automatically know that the Neural Maces wouldn't work? Or like how I allowed one of the Ferny to have above average strength and MDC, while doing the oposite with the other had minimal effect because its innate attacks (claws, bite, & special ram attack) allowed it to hit harder than its PS would normally allow? Or how I entertained the sudden retcon addition of the whole underground structure into your scenario to allow the Ferny to take advantage of their healing abilities and use hit & run tactics at all? Sure... I gave the dogs every advantage I could think of. Give me a friggin' break, because I sure as heck gave you one by working in every accommodation I reasonable could.

And if you think Dog Boys are arbitrarily "dumb" despite having intelligence equal to any human and being trained from birth to fight and kill the supernatural, then you are grossly underestimating them.

And that inescapable hold .. when you try that on some one with Supernatural strength .. means your death .. there is no way that some one with normal human strength limits is going to hold for even 1 melee action (3-4 seconds) something with Supernatural Strength .. with out that Supernaturally strong character breaking that hold rather easily .. I might add

But in your scenario .. I guess it works .. hahaa

Actually, as you can see form the text above, the Wrestling Pin did not in fact work because the odds of success were too high to meet on demand, (15% likelihood). Even allowing for a random chance for it actually work, it still failed. And by the book... the book(s) that determine how things work in terms of game mechanics... if the Pin did kick in, there are no special accommodations for those with supernatural strength over those with normal PS, (and for the record, point for point Dog Boys are pretty darn strong; twice that of humans of equivalent strength... with Kill Hounds being twice as strong as the supernatural, point for point). It's about leverage and positioning, not strength. If instead I could have rationalized using a Hold maneuver, again the target's supernatural PS would not have been a factor; those rely on the opponents' Physical Prowess to get out of and maintain the lock. So yea, both ways had a chance of working in the above scenario. Be thankful that you didn't set the Dog Boys' level of experience at 7, otherwise two would have pounced on the Ferny, thrown him into two different Hold maneuvers at the same time while the others blasted away with impunity, making Part 2 a much quicker story to tell.

placed a plasma grenade in its mouth, pulled the pin, and then ran away with the dogs quickly behind. After a few seconds the grenade exploded, completely misting the Ferny’s head

You said you were taking average Damage if I remember correctly .. Plasma Granades 6d6 =36/2 = 18 damage taken .. That is not enough to mist the head of a MDC being ..

Sorry not buying that one either .. lol

True story: I figured out that the mathematical average on a 1D6, (being 3.5, as others pointed out), well before I learned the math behind it. How? Simple detection; there is no zero on a six sided die, so if you lay it out on a number-chart, the half way point is three and half.

Secondly, (and lucky you that I kept good Current MDC records), at the time Kil-rah had the grenade place in his unconscious mouth, he was down to -6 MD. With an average Ferny PE of 21, that would mean the additional 21 MD put him down to -27; more than enough to finish the job and mist he head clean off.

But Dead Boy prolly just wanted to finish the scenario (and who can blame him really), so he had the Fenry use the blunt force tactic of "take one down if I am going to die" - which, I will add, is in the character of the fenry.

Well, there was that, I admit. But also at the time Shar-payn was only down to 45 MDC; a third of his above-average maximum of 150. So faced with a one-on-one straight-up fight, why would he back down against a lone mortal squishy? It didn't make sense.

And no, I didn't plan it that way. It's just how the scenario played out.

For the record, I wouldn't have used the called shot in melee, so he actually killed a dogboy quicker than I would have.

And KC would surely agree with you. It is a controversial and somewhat obscure rule I dug up there, but it makes a lot of sense, (especially with the 20 ft maximum range on it for movement, limiting character's ability to use it at will). But as I said I'd do above, I put it in a PM to Kev last night and asked him about the permissibility of using Designated Strikes by the official rules. If (his PM reply-record is kind of spotty, at least with me anyhow), and when he gets back to me, I'll post something on it regardless of which way he rules on the issue.

[Lenwen]

I am wrong on the "Average" issue of the debat. Thank you all for graciously .. proving me wrong on that topic.

[killhound]

im still trying to figure out why every one is still posting to this thread, the debate is over for everyone else except lenwen keep up the good fight. i didn't mean to throw your world into a dither. how dare i say that the omnipatant fenry loose to mear dogboys clearly i have lost my mind.

[MikelAmroni]

But Dead Boy prolly just wanted to finish the scenario (and who can blame him really), so he had the Fenry use the blunt force tactic of "take one down if I am going to die" - which, I will add, is in the character of the fenry.

Well, there was that, I admit. But also at the time Shar-payn was only down to 45 MDC; a third of his above-average maximum of 150. So faced with a one-on-one straight-up fight, why would he back down against a lone mortal squishy? It didn't make sense.

And no, I didn't plan it that way. It's just how the scenario played out.

I kinda figured, and the way I saw it you ran it giving every advantage you could to the fenry.

For the record, I wouldn't have used the called shot in melee, so he actually killed a dogboy quicker than I would have.

And KC would surely agree with you. It is a controversial and somewhat obscure rule I dug up there, but it makes a lot of sense, (especially with the 20 ft maximum range on it for movement, limiting character's ability to use it at will). But as I said I'd do above, I put it in a PM to Kev last night and asked him about the permissibility of using Designated Strikes by the official rules. If (his PM reply-record is kind of spotty, at least with me anyhow), and when he gets back to me, I'll post something on it regardless of which way he rules on the issue.

For the record, I would use the rule as a house rule, but as its not explicitly stated, I would call it a house rule (based on a logical extrapolation of the existing rule of staking vampires, but still a house rule), and not have used it in a base rules scenario like this. That said, it made for a dramatic bit of tension and worked pretty well.

:?: im still trying to figure out why every one is still posting to this thread, the debate is over for everyone else except lenwen keep up the good fight. i didn't mean to throw your world into a dither. how dare i say that the omnipatant fenry loose to mear dogboys clearly i have lost my mind.

Because despite the fact that Lenwen had an obvious favorite in the fight, its still an interesting topic - so thank you Lenwen for bringing it up. Its interesting to note I am not sure if the CS would have won in an open environment like what I was going to use. The ability of the fenry to retreat and completely heal is a big deciding factor. It was one he did not have in the arena scenario Lenwen came up with. I'm certain that wasn't Lenwen's idea when he did it, but its still an interesting side effect. Which gives us a good idea as to why there is not a huge problem with Demons in the CS cities. The Dogpacks are very good at hunting them down.

[Crazy Lou]

Which gives us a good idea as to why there is not a huge problem with Demons in the CS cities. The Dogpacks are very good at hunting them down.

I think more than that there's first the question: how would they get in in the first place??? I'd say that really this is a much more crucial part of the issue than the ability of dog boys to hunt them down, since if you look at the burbs, which is patrolled by the CS, there are a bunch of SN creatures, dragons, other creatures of magic, and even some demons hiding in there.

In the example of fenry, being in a city would give them an advantage really (provided it's not somehow an immediate fight to the death). The CS would attack, and the fenry, if he sees he's outmatched, is so much faster (generally) and more mobile he could just run away and lose them completely, giving ample time to regenerate and go for another round.

[MikelAmroni]

Which gives us a good idea as to why there is not a huge problem with Demons in the CS cities. The Dogpacks are very good at hunting them down.

I think more than that there's first the question: how would they get in in the first place??? I'd say that really this is a much more crucial part of the issue than the ability of dog boys to hunt them down, since if you look at the burbs, which is patrolled by the CS, there are a bunch of SN creatures, dragons, other creatures of magic, and even some demons hiding in there.
In the example of fenry, being in a city would give them an advantage really (provided it's not somehow an immediate fight to the death). The CS would attack, and the fenry, if he sees he's outmatched, is so much faster (generally) and more mobile he could just run away and lose them completely, giving ample time to regenerate and go for another round.

I agree, as long as the CS isn't smart and cordone off the area before he can get too far. Given the odds, I'd say that at least 7 times out of ten, they manage to cordone off the area, and out of the remaining 3 times, they've prolly got a 75% capture/kill rate after a few days to a week, simply because they know the area better. Some folks may die, but in the end, the CS catches their guy. Some manage to escape, but that's the ones that are crafty, and are worthy exceptions to the rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

Dog Boys have more hits but when you use statistical analysis, you rule out imagination...

What would happen if the demons each picked up a dog and threw said dog at another dog? Leaving the stalker alone for an attack or two... The demons do have SN P.S., right?

They'd each have to spend one attack making a grab, which may or may not hit, then make a second attack making a throw, which may or may not hit, during which time they'll be taking damage from the others in the group, about 42 MD each (or 84 MD on one, if the pack concentrates fire)- not counting any damage inflicted on they by the ones they're trying to grab.
The dogboys thrown, as well as the ones hit, would take about 3d6 MD- half if they roll with impact- as well as some light SDC damage, and suffer a knockdown if the attack hits, each losing one attack, leaving the psi-stalker (or one dog boy) still there shooting at them.
What next?

[Crazy Lou]

Plus we already went through that before...