Mind Block vs Mask ISP & Psionics

[Lenwen]

That 80 ISP/PPE minimum is a limitation only for regular folks. Dog Boys and Psi-stalkers are much more sensitive to supernatural beings, hence the limitation does not apply when sniffing them out.

Sorry but what you just said is not in Rifts Lone Star, or Rue .. You are obviously playing Dogboys now with house rules of some kind.

According to Canon rules .. Dogboys can in fact NOT sense .. anything Less then 80 PPE or 80 ISP .. (minnimum) .. according to thier writeups ..

Can you cite me a book an pg# of where you got this idea from ?

Under the "Sense Supernatural Beings" ability for Dog Boys it lists 2 different percentages. One for active magic or powerful supernatural and the other for no active magic or little magic for a supernatural with gargoyles and brodkil listed as the example.

I think I'd interpret that as using the lesser percentage if a Supernatural's PPE was below 80.

C. Chopps

I can see where you are comming from and I honestly think it could be taken either way. In my opinion it means anything under 80PPE / 80ISP .. means the Dogboys can not detect at all .. And this is as I've always played it.

But like I said I see where you are comming from with that an understand that it is not clear enough therefore it means its an "Open" ability useable by the GM either way.

[Prysus]

That 80 ISP/PPE minimum is a limitation only for regular folks. Dog Boys and Psi-stalkers are much more sensitive to supernatural beings, hence the limitation does not apply when sniffing them out.

Sorry but what you just said is not in Rifts Lone Star, or Rue .. You are obviously playing Dogboys now with house rules of some kind.

According to Canon rules .. Dogboys can in fact NOT sense .. anything Less then 80 PPE or 80 ISP .. (minnimum) .. according to thier writeups ..

Can you cite me a book an pg# of where you got this idea from ?

Greetings and Salutations. Darn it! I feel the need to reply again. Anyways, I'll see if I can touch on this point (in the book). Let's start this again (though I should be sleeping instead).

R:UE; Dog Boy; Ability 3

...supernatural beings such as alien intelligences, gods, demigods, demons, and vampires, as well as creatures of magic such as Faeries and dragons.

I'll note "demigods" are included in that list, but I'll also note that demigods are not guaranteed to have either magic nor psionics (unless they take that power of the godling, or they select the O.C.C.). Many demigods will not have either, yet they're in the list.

...per level of experience when the creature is not using magic or psionic powers or the creature has little or no magic powers or psionics like a Brodkil or Gargoyle and most sub-demons.

Admittedly I don't know where to find the Brodkil to look at them, but a Gargoyle has neither 80 I.S.P. or P.P.E. (except for a Gargoyle Mage, but that's the exception), yet they're included in this list that can be sensed. Also it notes: "little or no magic powers or psionics."

R:UE; Psi-Stalker; Ability 2

...includes demons, vampires, and Entities.

Entities are not likely to have much I.S.P. or P.P.E. either.

The 80 I.S.P. or P.P.E. doesn't seem to be a requirement for any of the three I just mentioned. One on the list and it might be more dismissed as a mistake, but three does start to add up. Though I do have a minor theory on this on why Mask P.P.E. still works. So let's look into that as well. For this, I'm going to a non-Rifts book and to my preferred system, Palladium Fantasy.

Library of Bletherad; Cast No Spell; Work No Magic

Magic weapons, even rune weapons, lose their enchantment, while creatures of magic (i.e. Dragons, Mummies, Scarecrows) will feel their life force ebbing away at a rapid 1D4x10 S.D.C./Hit Points a minute.

In this case, the building is basically a giant anti-magic cloud. Note that it mentions that without magic these races will start to die! These races may have "X" as their personal reserve, but they likely have a LOT higher P.P.E. in their bodies (it's their very life force). As a result, even if they spent every point of their personal P.P.E. they'd probably still register to a Dog Boy or Psi-Stalker. As a result, Mask P.P.E. should be able to cover this aspect of their nature. As for not being able to use Mask P.P.E. and Mask I.S.P. at the same time, I suppose that depends on the ruling if a power is already active if they continue being active. Many rule that if it was activated beforehand, it will stay active for the duration. So use the Mask P.P.E. first, then the Mask I.S.P., and no more psionics but both are blocked (though that is a G.M. ruling as I don't believe I've seen anything official either way). Otherwise, masking P.P.E. is probably the way to go for most (as that's in their nature and harder to bluff out of than some I.S.P.).

Again, this is only a theory and it doesn't stat things like this flat out, but I'm trying to base it off of logical conclusions from book material. I do my best to provide book sources and explain my thoughts as thorough as possible. Naturally I believe I'm right, but if someone doesn't agree that is just fine. My main objective is to point out what I do know is in the book (and show my thoughts what I think it means) and then let others decide for themselves. Hopefully some of that helped. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[dark brandon]

The 80 I.S.P. or P.P.E. doesn't seem to be a requirement for any of the three I just mentioned. One on the list and it might be more dismissed as a mistake, but three does start to add up. Though I do have a minor theory on this on why Mask P.P.E. still works. So let's look into that as well. For this, I'm going to a non-Rifts book and to my preferred system, Palladium Fantasy.

One note. From my reading of the dog boy power 1, it makes note of "specifically fellow Psychics (ISP) and magic energy (PPE used in spell casting magic devices and large energy reserves in practitioners of magic and creatures of magic: 80 or more). I only get the 80 PPE, but I do not read it as having ISP included in that. The more valid reason is that dog boys can sense psychics, including minors, but most minor even many major do not have anything close to 80 ISP. Not an important note for this topic, but one I think should be distinguished.

In this case, the building is basically a giant anti-magic cloud. Note that it mentions that without magic these races will start to die! These races may have "X" as their personal reserve, but they likely have a LOT higher P.P.E. in their bodies (it's their very life force). As a result, even if they spent every point of their personal P.P.E. they'd probably still register to a Dog Boy or Psi-Stalker. As a result, Mask P.P.E. should be able to cover this aspect of their nature. As for not being able to use Mask P.P.E. and Mask I.S.P. at the same time, I suppose that depends on the ruling if a power is already active if they continue being active. Many rule that if it was activated beforehand, it will stay active for the duration. So use the Mask P.P.E. first, then the Mask I.S.P., and no more psionics but both are blocked (though that is a G.M. ruling as I don't believe I've seen anything official either way). Otherwise, masking P.P.E. is probably the way to go for most (as that's in their nature and harder to bluff out of than some I.S.P.).

You actually have given me reason to believe why it won't work. Taking into not your assumption (and I like it), PPE is converted into "life force" for these creature, it becomes a different form of PPE, thus requiring a different way to hide/detect them, which is why you have Hide PPE, and hide psionics and ISP. ISP seems to be different enough from PPE, which is why dog boys do not need someone to have 80 ISP or even any (just having psionics) to detect them, the same could be said for the life-force of these creatures. It also explains why psychics and ISP are unaffected in the library and in an Anti-magic cloud but both can be used to run TW weapons. In otherwords PPE and the life-force might be more closely related than PPE and ISP.

Anothing thing I've been thinking upon is for psi-stalkers (9 MDC combat). How does this work? I've always ran it as a natural reaction to being near SN and CoM, it's not a conscious decision but a natural reaction. The main reason is that it becomes "stronger" when near a ley line and nexus point, which to me says the power isn't again, a conscious decision but rather a natural reaction. In order for this power to make any sense to me, it occurse when any SN or CoM is within his sensing range, because "locking horns" only means combat, but doesn't say if it is HtH (which would make this even more worthless) or if it can be ranged.

I was actually worried I was playing it wrong, but I think my initial responce was correct. I also think intent, I don't believe CoM were ever ment to hide from Dog boys and psi-stalkers. Mask PPE in it's write up mentions this as a way for mystics to hide their nature but I don't think it was ment to hide the supernatural and Dragons.

[Dead Boy]

There's no need for me to get into the other issue here because Prysus did such a fantastic analysis of the 80 ISP/PPE req for the Supernatural question at hand. Great job, dude!

The only question that has entered my mind at this juncture is whether the Dog Boys need a non-supernatural target to have either "80+ ISP or 80+ PPE", or "a total 80+ ISP & PPE combined", (e.g. a human with 32 ISP and 49 PPE = 81 PPE & ISP) ?

It makes a big difference.

What makes you think that an unregistered psychic trying to enter a Coalition city wouldn't raise any red flags?

Easy .. Tell them you are on your way to actually register with the CS ..

Are you trying to imply that Every single Psionic ability wielding being in the CS is born to them and not a single 1 is ever brought to them ?

If this is so .. how do you explain the Mind Bleeders in thier ranks ?

Hypothetical Scenario 1: You're driving down the road at 75 mph (120kph) and a cop pulls you over. He walks up and says "License and registration, please." To which you say, "Sorry officer. I don't have either one, but I was just on my way to get them just now, so it's all cool." Do you honestly expect the cop to let you go, or do you think he's going to write you up a big fat citation and have you car towed?

Hypothetical Scenario 2: You're going down to City Hall to pay the traffic citation the cop wrote you the other day, but upon entering the front door a beeping noise sounds. You just waked through the metal detector and realized that you forgot to leave your gun in your mother's car, (someone had to drive; your ride is in the impound after all). The security guard walks up and finds your S&W 4566 tucked in the back of your pants, covered by your jacket. You immediately say, "Oh, don't worry about that, Mr. Security Guard. I was just coming here to get my concealed weapons permit." Do you think he's going to buy into your line of BS, or is it more likely you're going to be pulled aside, frisked for more weapons, and thrown in the pookie for the night for bringing a firearm onto government property?

Hypothetical Scenario 3: You're a Dragon who used magic to morph into human shape and used the powers Mask PPE and Mask ISP & Psi to hide you supernatural signature, and you're attempting to walk through the front gate of a CS city. You get past the Dogs that wander around the line to get in, but the Psi-Scanners at the door go off when you try to enter. You say "Dont' worry. I'm here to get registered, even though I have no proof of CS Citizenship and an clearly trying to conceal my powers." Do you think they haven't heard that lie eight times already that day alone and will let it slide, or do you think they're going to pull you aside and use Presence Sense such to examine you further and detain you for several hours (while the 20 min/level duration on your spell ticks away) in a holding cell?


As for how Mind Bleeders get in to the CS Military's roster, either they're born that way from parents who are already CS citizens, or they apply for citizenship like everyone else using a tour in the CS Army as a means to expedite their waiting period, (remember, not all soldiers are full-fledged citizens, but those aspiring to be). And those that do go through that route are enrolled in the PRP... and even they have to go through the same security setup that the CS would have at the front door to ensure no one gets in that doesn't belong.

Anothing thing I've been thinking upon is for psi-stalkers (9 MDC combat). How does this work? I've always ran it as a natural reaction to being near SN and CoM, it's not a conscious decision but a natural reaction. The main reason is that it becomes "stronger" when near a ley line and nexus point, which to me says the power isn't again, a conscious decision but rather a natural reaction. In order for this power to make any sense to me, it occurse when any SN or CoM is within his sensing range, because "locking horns" only means combat, but doesn't say if it is HtH (which would make this even more worthless) or if it can be ranged.

I agree that it's a natural reflexive action on their part, but alas the power only engages in point blank melee hand to hand combat range.

"... whenever a Psi-Stalker engages in a physical, hand to hand combat with an MDC supernatural being or creature of magic..." (RUE 154).

Nope, for a change Palladium actually used clear language on this one, which kind of sucks for the Stalkers because it would be awesome for them if it triggered at sensory range. HOWEVER, the power as written has no duration nor any further conditions placed on it. Ergo, there is nothing preventing the Psi-Stalker form running up to the supernatural threat, giving it a single melee blow to trigger the the power, and then fall back to engage with ranged weapons. It's kind of like how the Plains Indians used to count coup in combat for honor points; it could be played off similarly for the Stalkers for in-game context with a Coup Stick and all.

I also think intent, I don't believe CoM were ever ment to hide from Dog boys and psi-stalkers. Mask PPE in it's write up mentions this as a way for mystics to hide their nature but I don't think it was ment to hide the supernatural and Dragons.

I think the introduction of the two key powers in question also accidentally introductory a fragment of retcon as well on that front. It may not have been the intent, but it reads like the effect.

[Killer Cyborg]

Though this tread has much bickering in it, it does point out a flaw in palladium metaphysics. With all the psionic and magic out there it seem there is no way around the Psi-Stalker and Dog-Boy senses.
Thats really good for the CS, but do rright frustrating for us players.

I don't have any frustrations with it.

Take warlord Sabre Lasar from Lone Star, he's an adult dragon in disgiuse, and a large number of his regular troops are Psi-Stalkers, but apperantlly they have no idea the are working for a creature of magic. With their senses keyed on hunting CoM they are missing one right under their noses and no reason in canon way this can evan happen.

I don't have that book, so I can't speculate.

[Mack]

Take warlord Sabre Lasar from Lone Star, he's an adult dragon in disgiuse, and a large number of his regular troops are Psi-Stalkers, but apperantlly they have no idea the are working for a creature of magic. With their senses keyed on hunting CoM they are missing one right under their noses and no reason in canon way this can evan happen.

Yea, he "hides" by portraying himself as a Ley Line Walker and carrying magic items on his person. It goes back to the pseudo-rule that NPC's are allowed to break all other rules.

[Dead Boy]

Sense Evil! Jeepers Creepers! I totally overlooked the importance of the power Sense Evil, which every Dog Boy automatically has, and every Psi-Stalker has a good chance of having. I was going over the psi powers in greater detail for the Ferny v Dog Boy fight when I re-read that one. Turns out Sense Evil is one of those powers that I blew off years ago as being not all that useful... but on review, it's extremely relevant here in the "hiding dragon" scenario!

Most relevant is the line that reads, "All supernatural creatures radiate their alignment, good or evil. A psychic sensitive will automatically feel supernatural evil without spending a single ISP point." (RUE 176) After being alerted to it, they can then start spending ISP to get a better idea of what it is and where it's at in general.

That means that unlike Dog Boy & Psi-Stalker power of Sense Supernatural Beings, which is clearly linked to sensing ISP and PPE, this other automatic psychic tripwire works on a completely different wavelength... off the monster's own evil alignment. So in order to further hide, if the dragon's alignment were evil, he would have to find a way to also change the flavor his alignment radiates. That means if "evil" is a factor, then the Dragon will also have to use the power of Alter Aura, (note: I was initially leery about the effectiveness of Alter Aura on Sense Evil until I read the spell equivalent's description on pg 199 RUE which states under Saving Throw, "None, except a psychic Mind Block, Alter Aura, or a protection form Magic circle which will prevent the spell from working on anyone in the circle. The psychic's equivalent power of Sense Evil is not blocked by magic circles." This means, by way of a little logical deduction, that the psi version of Sense Evil IS countered by Alter Aura and Mind Block. Why they make you look up the spell to see how the psi power fully works, I have no idea).

So the winning formula to hide form Dog Boys and & Psi-Stalkers out in the field is: Mask PSI & Psi, Mask PPE, Alter Aura, and/or Mind Block.
And at this point, in order to pull off this particular trick, most characters/NPC would have be tailor made to be hide in this manner from the onset of their creation. ... And even THEN, they can still be caught by the use of Presence Sense, (which, fortunately for them, is not a persistent automatic power like the rest are).

[Shark_Force]

Sense Evil! Jeepers Creepers! I totally overlooked the importance of the power Sense Evil, which every Dog Boy automatically has, and every Psi-Stalker has a good chance of having. I was going over the psi powers in greater detail for the Ferny v Dog Boy fight when I re-read that one. Turns out Sense Evil is one of those powers that I blew off years ago as being not all that useful... but on review, it's extremely relevant here in the "hiding dragon" scenario!

Most relevant is the line that reads, "All supernatural creatures radiate their alignment, good or evil. A psychic sensitive will automatically feel supernatural evil without spending a single ISP point." (RUE 176) After being alerted to it, they can then start spending ISP to get a better idea of what it is and where it's at in general.

That means that unlike Dog Boy & Psi-Stalker power of Sense Supernatural Beings, which is clearly linked to sensing ISP and PPE, this other automatic psychic tripwire works on a completely different wavelength... off the monster's own evil alignment. So in order to further hide, if the dragon's alignment were evil, he would have to find a way to also change the flavor his alignment radiates. That means if "evil" is a factor, then the Dragon will also have to use the power of Alter Aura, (note: I was initially leery about the effectiveness of Alter Aura on Sense Evil until I read the spell equivalent's description on pg 199 RUE which states under Saving Throw, "None, except a psychic Mind Block, Alter Aura, or a protection form Magic circle which will prevent the spell from working on anyone in the circle. The psychic's equivalent power of Sense Evil is not blocked by magic circles." This means, by way of a little logical deduction, that the psi version of Sense Evil IS countered by Alter Aura and Mind Block. Why they make you look up the spell to see how the psi power fully works, I have no idea).

So the winning formula to hide form Dog Boys and & Psi-Stalkers out in the field is: Mask PSI & Psi, Mask PPE, Alter Aura, and/or Mind Block.
And at this point, in order to pull off this particular trick, most characters/NPC would have be tailor made to be hide in this manner from the onset of their creation. ... And even THEN, they can still be caught by the use of Presence Sense, (which, fortunately for them, is not a persistent automatic power like the rest are).

huh... looking back on this, i have decided that either mind block is the most poorly written power in the game, or it got rewritten and a ton of stuff never got updated...

mind block explicitly says what it works against, and then says it doesn't work on anything else. many of the things that state in their description mind block stops them are not mentioned in any way, shape, or form, in the list of stuff mind block prevents.

*sigh*

well, it makes absolutely zero sense to me for mind block to prevent see aura from functioning in the ways that it does (exception: preventing detection of a possessing being via see aura), and i can't see why it would block sense evil either (after all, a good aligned demon still radiates supernatural evil).

personally, i would just add in a houseruled power that let's you conceal supernatural/creature of magic status. or possibly combine all the various "mask" powers into one power that has several functions... it seems a bit silly to be able to conceal ISP and psionics, which are basically another form of PPE, but not to be able to conceal PPE, and vice versa.

[Killer Cyborg]

So the winning formula to hide form Dog Boys and & Psi-Stalkers out in the field is: Mask PSI & Psi, Mask PPE, Alter Aura, and/or Mind Block.
And at this point, in order to pull off this particular trick, most characters/NPC would have be tailor made to be hide in this manner from the onset of their creation. ... And even THEN, they can still be caught by the use of Presence Sense, (which, fortunately for them, is not a persistent automatic power like the rest are).

Of course, at least two of those powers prevent the psychic from using any other powers, IIRC.

[Dead Boy]

Sense Evil! Jeepers Creepers!

The hidden might not be evil. And nobody takes sense good.

Quite true! But those with good alignments are unlikely to use this combo-trick with ill-intent in mind. So I'm a lot less worried about them.

So the winning formula to hide form Dog Boys and & Psi-Stalkers out in the field is: Mask PSI & Psi, Mask PPE, Alter Aura, and/or Mind Block.

Of course, at least two of those powers prevent the psychic from using any other powers, IIRC.

Everything worthwhile comes with a trade-off.

IIRC when you put mind bolck up Presence Sence can't detect you.

I'm not seeing that anywhere. Do you have a book & page number to substantiate that?

[Killer Cyborg]

So the winning formula to hide form Dog Boys and & Psi-Stalkers out in the field is: Mask PSI & Psi, Mask PPE, Alter Aura, and/or Mind Block.

Of course, at least two of those powers prevent the psychic from using any other powers, IIRC.

Everything worthwhile comes with a trade-off.

Sure, and it's generally worth it.
My point was that you probably can't have all those powers engaged at the same time.

[Overlord Rikonius]

So the winning formula to hide form Dog Boys and & Psi-Stalkers out in the field is: Mask PSI & Psi, Mask PPE, Alter Aura, and/or Mind Block.

Of course, at least two of those powers prevent the psychic from using any other powers, IIRC.

Everything worthwhile comes with a trade-off.

Sure, and it's generally worth it.
My point was that if you probably can't have all those powers engaged at the same time.

Wait, I think I remember how to do this... you cast Mind Block on the fox and then Mask PPE on the chickens and then put your grain on the boat...
Wait that's not it...

[Dead Boy]

So the winning formula to hide form Dog Boys and & Psi-Stalkers out in the field is: Mask PSI & Psi, Mask PPE, Alter Aura, and/or Mind Block.

Of course, at least two of those powers prevent the psychic from using any other powers, IIRC.

Everything worthwhile comes with a trade-off.

Sure, and it's generally worth it.
My point was that you probably can't have all those powers engaged at the same time.

Hmmm... good point.

Both Mask ISP & Pis and Mind Block comes with the condition, "cannot use any psionic sense or abilities while in use" (RUE 174 - paraphrased), so it is impossible to use them at the same time. However, Munchkin Slappin GM's joke might be on the right track. All psi-powers work on a duration effect, much like a spell. If Mask PPE and Alter Aura were activated first, followed by Mask ISP & Psi lastly... maybe... Technically the ISP is already spent so it might not count... I guess it all boils down to whether the activation of Mask ISP & Psi negates powers that are already active or whether their durations are allowed to run out.

But yea, that potentially kinks things up good.