Dog pack vrs ..DEMONS !!

[Lenwen]

A Typical 5th lvl (all) Dogpack with 4 Members and a Psi-Stalker with Starting equipment vs 2 Fenry Wolf Demons.

In the The Colosseum and to the death.

Who wins ?

[Crucible]

A Typical 5th lvl (all) Dogpack with 4 Members and a Psi-Stalker with Starting equipment vs 2 Fenry Wolf Demons.

In the The Colosseum and to the death.

Who wins ?

[killhound]

the dog pack that is what they do

[Lenwen]

I think you should take a look at the demon in question .. before merely giving it to the Dogboys ..

[killhound]

i tell you what drop a dogboy and put in a killhound if you think the fenry is to much and have read the fenry. and i do know waht a good dog pack is capable of

[Lenwen]

i tell you what drop a dogboy and put in a killhound if you think the fenry is to much and have read the fenry. and i do know waht a good dog pack is capable of

Ok so then explain to me how the Dogpack will win against two Fenry Demons ..

Tell me thier stratagies. And exactly how they would do it .

[Crucible]

I never underestimat a Dog Pack in game, but on paper they are hurtin bad.

[Lenwen]

Crucible.

How do you see this playing out ? Who wins .. and how ?

[killhound]

crucible is rite on paper the dogpack looks bad average dogboy has 5 att its 30 att vs 10 the odds are in the dogpacks favor

[Lenwen]

crucible is rite on paper the dogpack looks bad average dogboy has 5 att its 30 att vs 10 the odds are in the dogpacks favor

The Dogpack would have to work extreamly efficient in my opinion to take out 2 Fenry Demons.

Its definatly do-able, but my question to you guys is how would the Dogpack do it ?

[Crucible]

crucible is rite on paper the dogpack looks bad average dogboy has 5 att its 30 att vs 10 the odds are in the dogpacks favor

The Dogpack would have to work extreamly efficient in my opinion to take out 2 Fenry Demons.

Its definatly do-able, but my question to you guys is how would the Dogpack do it ?

They would start with ranged attacks while going in, then when close enough use vibro weapons. The Fenry (2) looks much better on paper, but the Psi-Stalker is salivating for this one and the dog boy will work into a frenzy. They get exceptional boneses and from my experience...would prefer to face a monster from the Rifts than a pack of Dogboys and Psi-Stalker.

[Crucible]

Didn't see the Arena part...I'd say play it out.

[Nightmaster]

Lenwen said "Starting Equipment" that means that the dog pack dont have Full EBA and are using only light weapons and vibro blades. The Psi Stalker would be using standard grunt starting equips, which mean full EBA, pulse laser rifle (plus e-clips)and a few grenades.

Even if you give the dogs full EBA (using the Lone Star book) the odds are still against then because they dont have oportunity to engage in their characteristic hunting procedures into a arena.

[Crucible]

Lenwen said "Starting Equipment" that means that the dog pack dont have Full EBA and are using only light weapons and vibro blades. The Psi Stalker would be using standard grunt starting equips, which mean full EBA, pulse laser rifle (plus e-clips)and a few grenades.

Even if you give the dogs full EBA (using the Lone Star book) the odds are still against then because they dont have oportunity to engage in their characteristic hunting procedures into a arena.

I have to agree

[Lenwen]

I see the tide has turned ..

When I first asked this .. several of the first posters .. both totally agreed .. the Dogboy's would win easily due to "Its what they do" .

And now .. The tide has turned .. and it seems that more an more people think that the Fenry would win..

hehe.

[Shark_Force]

Read it again 3 times in 3 different places.
Page 99 coalition war machine
Page 205 main book
Page 259 RUE
Still not seeing it. What part is telling you that supernatural creatures are immune to the stun effects?

well, on page 259 of my RUE, it's the last line in the "save vs neural mace" section, where it says "Also ineffective against supernatural opponents and creatures of magic."

[killhound]

thats because there not imune to stun or knockdown or any of the other affects of taking lots of damage real quickly its an interpritation not based in fact. the simple tactic of just stay out of hth and gun them down eaven in an arina is still valid unless the aria is so small that the fenry can move from one side to the other in less than 1 action the dog boys still have a good chance of pulling 1 down and making the other one run. still a win

[killhound]

that just the nural mace is inefective

[Crucible]

My question. What is the point of the neural mace if it is ineffective vs the supernatural???

[Crucible]

It is ineffective, sorry guys.


http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... Eratta.pdf


Worthless weapon if you ask me.

[Lenwen]

And so it appears that aspect has now been shot down.

[killhound]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

[Shark_Force]

do the demons have autododge? because from the sound of it, their main form of combat is melee (which the dog boys will get an automatic parry against, and therefore lose no attacks avoiding), whereas the dog pack will be able to shoot at the demons (which will cost them precious actions if they want to dodge). if they do choose to dodge, they're only dodging 10 out of 30 attacks. if they don't choose to dodge, they will likely get shot about 20-25 times by the time they get to attack the dog boys.

[Crucible]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

puh-lease...may as well carry a heavy Tickle Me Elmo

[Killer Cyborg]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

puh-lease...may as well carry a heavy Tickle Me Elmo

SDC is still the norm in Rifts Earth- most of the Dog Packs' opposition is going to be non-supernatural threats that can be dropped with a Neural Mace.
Moreover, it's a nice resolution to the odd situation that dog boys can find themselves in, being naturally subservient to humans but sometimes required to attack, subdue, or arrest them.

Whatever your own games are like, don't forget that the game world itself has use for all sorts of non-MD weapons that don't affect supernatural creatures.

[Crucible]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

puh-lease...may as well carry a heavy Tickle Me Elmo

SDC is still the norm in Rifts Earth- most of the Dog Packs' opposition is going to be non-supernatural threats that can be dropped with a Neural Mace.
Moreover, it's a nice resolution to the odd situation that dog boys can find themselves in, being naturally subservient to humans but sometimes required to attack, subdue, or arrest them.

Whatever your own games are like, don't forget that the game world itself has use for all sorts of non-MD weapons that don't affect supernatural creatures.

I've often mentioned the lethality of my games. OFTEN. Some guys are probably sick of hearing it. SDC is very useful in my games. What I'm talking about is in the sense of what Lenwen proposes.

[Killer Cyborg]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

puh-lease...may as well carry a heavy Tickle Me Elmo

SDC is still the norm in Rifts Earth- most of the Dog Packs' opposition is going to be non-supernatural threats that can be dropped with a Neural Mace.
Moreover, it's a nice resolution to the odd situation that dog boys can find themselves in, being naturally subservient to humans but sometimes required to attack, subdue, or arrest them.

Whatever your own games are like, don't forget that the game world itself has use for all sorts of non-MD weapons that don't affect supernatural creatures.

I've often mentioned the lethality of my games. OFTEN. Some guys are probably sick of hearing it. SDC is very useful in my games. What I'm talking about is in the sense of what Lenwen proposes.

IN this particular fight, yes, the Neural Maces would be pretty useless.
They'd be better off with vibro-claws.

[Crucible]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

puh-lease...may as well carry a heavy Tickle Me Elmo

SDC is still the norm in Rifts Earth- most of the Dog Packs' opposition is going to be non-supernatural threats that can be dropped with a Neural Mace.
Moreover, it's a nice resolution to the odd situation that dog boys can find themselves in, being naturally subservient to humans but sometimes required to attack, subdue, or arrest them.

Whatever your own games are like, don't forget that the game world itself has use for all sorts of non-MD weapons that don't affect supernatural creatures.

I've often mentioned the lethality of my games. OFTEN. Some guys are probably sick of hearing it. SDC is very useful in my games. What I'm talking about is in the sense of what Lenwen proposes.

IN this particular fight, yes, the Neural Maces would be pretty useless.
They'd be better off with vibro-claws.

Those Vibro Claws are nasty, but they would have to work fast...very fast.

[Library Ogre]

Second while I agree that the books keep saying that there is a lot of SDC out there, I doubt the CS went through the trouble of creating the dogboys just to deal with a SDC DB who does not even have full armor.

Just because they weren't specifically created for it doesn't mean that they're not effective at it. Against most mortal (i.e. human and many d-bee) wizards and psychics, the neural mace is effective, especially if the Pack has initiative. Against regular humans, it's effective. Against these foes, Dog Boys are quite effective... fast and strong, just a touch below juicers and crazies, with natural weapons and a natural ability to work in teams.

Against a single demon, even a pack armed with vibro-blades can be hideously effective. While the blades don't do much individually, if you've got four of them on you, you're eventually going to run out of parries, and if the Dogs are doing just a little over your ability to regenerate every round, they'll wear anything down. Four Dog Boys, with their augmented strength, can hold down a single demon, with equal PS, that has supernatural strength... and all it takes is one slice from their psi-stalker master to render the demon fairly well moot.

Sure, they can't use the neural mace against a demon... but they've got other tools. Saying that a neural mace is useless because it won't take down a demon is like saying a hammer is useless because it won't properly turn a screw.

[Library Ogre]

First, run out of parries? Is there more errata I need to go look up? Or are you saying that the demons count as noncombat personnel?

Automatic parries are the province of those with Hand to Hand combat forms.
Most demons (fenry included, IIRC) are not listed as having Hand to Hand combat forms.
Therefore, most demons do not have automatic parry.

Second.. what other tools exactly are we talking about? Without the neural mace the dog pack has nothing to help deal with demons. I had always assumed it was put in there to give them a fighting chance. Other wise their tools consist of a energy handgun, and vibro claws (as per dogpack RCC in main book).

Which are the tools they need. Unlike with a human criminal or psychic, the tactic for an out and out d-bee or demon is to kill it. If it's a demon, shooting it multiple times with energy weapons, and cutting it a lot with claws, is exactly how you do that.

[Lenwen]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

puh-lease...may as well carry a heavy Tickle Me Elmo

Actually my daughters both have one of those and no matter how hard I hit some one with them .. I'd never be able to kill anyone with them.

However .. those nural (sp?) sticks on the other hand are able to kill people .. rather easily ..

just a slight difference

[Crucible]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

puh-lease...may as well carry a heavy Tickle Me Elmo

Actually my daughters both have one of those and no matter how hard I hit some one with them .. I'd never be able to kill anyone with them.
However .. those nural (sp?) sticks on the other hand are able to kill people .. rather easily ..

just a slight difference

Neural mace to demon...same

[Killer Cyborg]

Second while I agree that the books keep saying that there is a lot of SDC out there, I doubt the CS went through the trouble of creating the dogboys just to deal with a SDC DB who does not even have full armor.

Reread the Dog Pack description and origin in RUE.
-The CS did not create them.
-They're used for hunting mages, psychics, and supernatural creatures (the last of which will have MDC, but not necessarily the first two groups), but they're also used as police, recon teams, and to hunt down rogue scholars, body fixers, rogue scientists, and people who deal in contraband.

Also, they left it out for RUE, but the original Rifts book makes it clear that the CS was nervous about giving Dog Pack members MD weapons, and this is why the Vibro-Blade project was dusted off and finally implemented by the CS- to give the Dog Boys MD weaponry that wasn't TOO powerful, and that could safely be used in cities.
"Against an unarmed foe or a foe in body armor and/or armed with light mega-damage weaponry, the dogs and their blade are a formidable force."
Those are the typical foes that the Dog Pack was intended to go up against originally, although their role has been expanded as the CS relies on them more and more over time.

Second.. what other tools exactly are we talking about? Without the neural mace the dog pack has nothing to help deal with demons. I had always assumed it was put in there to give them a fighting chance. Other wise their tools consist of a energy handgun, and vibro claws (as per dogpack RCC in main book).

RUE, 148
Light or heavy dog pack armor, 100' rope, hammer, 4 spikes, 1d6 animal snares, infrared distancing binoculars, language translator, flashlight, survival knife, vibro-knives or claws (sometimes sabre), C-18 Laser Pistol, a choice of a C-10 or C-12 laser rifle with telescopic and nightvision scope, 4 e-clips for each weapon, gas mask, grenades, and a bit of other stuff.

(Also, upon assignment, hand grenades, smoke grenades, signal flares, other types of explosives, heavy weapons, optical enhancements, camera equipment, lifth vehicle, etc. etc.
Though I assume they wouldn't have that stuff for this situation.)

Average damage for a C-12 is 14 MD per blast.
Average Fenry has 135 MDC.
10 blasts will drop a Fenry, and there are 5 Dog Boys, so that's one Fenry down in the second round of attacks if they concentrate their fire.

Meanwhile, a Fenry dishes out an average of 10.5 MD on a full strength punch, claw strike, or head butt, and 14 MD on average per bite.
That's three hits to get through even the light (30 MDC) dog pack armor, and 4 hits to get through the heavy armor.
Of course, with the GI-Joe rule, the dogs would likely be alright, and another attack would be required to actually KILL the dog.

Admittedly the CS does not really care about the dog boys, but they do recognize their value. If their main job is to hunt down and capture/destroy the supernatural, maybe, just maybe, they would give them the gear for it. (but they don't)

That's not usually their main job, though, although it's always a secondary function due simply to their natural abilities and inclinations.
Though I agree that they should have more anti-supernatural gear in their arsenal. Silver Dog Pack Spikes would be a nice option, or wood spikes, for example.

[Killer Cyborg]

its grate for subduing mondains and mages unless they happen to be supernatural

puh-lease...may as well carry a heavy Tickle Me Elmo

Actually my daughters both have one of those and no matter how hard I hit some one with them .. I'd never be able to kill anyone with them.
However .. those nural (sp?) sticks on the other hand are able to kill people .. rather easily ..

just a slight difference

Neural mace to demon...same

Although I've already agreed that in this particular scenario a Neural Mace is pretty much useless, I have to step up and point something out.
Neural Maces are MDC weapons, so they're not completely useless in melee combat with supernatural foes simply because they can still be used to parry.

A dog boy with a neural mace in one hand and a C-18 in the other can parry incoming melee attacks without compromising his ability to shoot the enemy with his pistol, which would provide an advantage in this case, since the demon wouldn't be able to parry the incoming energy blast.

[Cybermancer]

I think that in this scenerio, the Dog Pack's best chance is to spread out, keep moving and stay at range. They also need to concentrate their fire on one target until it drops and then whittle down the second.

Using ranged weapons, it will be very difficult for the demons to dodge, if they choose to attempt it rather than just soak the damage. It's a tough choice for them to make as they can't keep soaking the combined firepower of the entire pack but they can't afford to sacrifice all their attacks dodging, especially when there's the -10 rule to consider.

The Fenri are going to have to be smart and start out by eliminating their enemies ranged weapons. They can worry about scoring kills later when they've rearranged the battlefield to one more to their liking. I don't know their particular abilities but they're going to want to use magic as an equalizer as well. Spells like magic net are good for incapcitating foes so you can deal with them later and at your leisure.

Basically, I think both sides are going to have to use their resources and intelligence to the utmost. Dog Packs are trained to work as a team and so I give them a slight edge before two random demons who may or may not have even met prior to the battle, much less worked together before.

And of course there are the dice. He who crits first, crits hardest.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think that in this scenerio, the Dog Pack's best chance is to spread out, keep moving and stay at range. They also need to concentrate their fire on one target until it drops and then whittle down the second.

Using ranged weapons, it will be very difficult for the demons to dodge, if they choose to attempt it rather than just soak the damage. It's a tough choice for them to make as they can't keep soaking the combined firepower of the entire pack but they can't afford to sacrifice all their attacks dodging, especially when there's the -10 rule to consider.

The Fenri are going to have to be smart and start out by eliminating their enemies ranged weapons. They can worry about scoring kills later when they've rearranged the battlefield to one more to their liking. I don't know their particular abilities but they're going to want to use magic as an equalizer as well. Spells like magic net are good for incapcitating foes so you can deal with them later and at your leisure.

Basically, I think both sides are going to have to use their resources and intelligence to the utmost. Dog Packs are trained to work as a team and so I give them a slight edge before two random demons who may or may not have even met prior to the battle, much less worked together before.

And of course there are the dice. He who crits first, crits hardest.

Actually, I'd have two Dog Boys close in, each one engaging one of the Fenry in melee.
That way, each Fenry is tied up with an opponent that is free to parry while the other three Dog Boys can use their rifles with impunity.
When one Dog Boy's armor gets whittled down to a danger zone (or, with the GI-Joe rule, to zero), that one can swap places with one of the ones in the back, staying out of range and using his rifle while a fully-armored Dog Boy engages the enemy in his place.

Alternatively, they can all concentrate rifle fire on one Fenry, just taking hits until that one is dropped, then, the dogs with damaged armor can fall back while some of the ones that haven't taken any hits engage in melee.

[Cybermancer]

I think that in this scenerio, the Dog Pack's best chance is to spread out, keep moving and stay at range. They also need to concentrate their fire on one target until it drops and then whittle down the second.

Using ranged weapons, it will be very difficult for the demons to dodge, if they choose to attempt it rather than just soak the damage. It's a tough choice for them to make as they can't keep soaking the combined firepower of the entire pack but they can't afford to sacrifice all their attacks dodging, especially when there's the -10 rule to consider.

The Fenri are going to have to be smart and start out by eliminating their enemies ranged weapons. They can worry about scoring kills later when they've rearranged the battlefield to one more to their liking. I don't know their particular abilities but they're going to want to use magic as an equalizer as well. Spells like magic net are good for incapcitating foes so you can deal with them later and at your leisure.

Basically, I think both sides are going to have to use their resources and intelligence to the utmost. Dog Packs are trained to work as a team and so I give them a slight edge before two random demons who may or may not have even met prior to the battle, much less worked together before.

And of course there are the dice. He who crits first, crits hardest.

Actually, I'd have two Dog Boys close in, each one engaging one of the Fenry in melee.
That way, each Fenry is tied up with an opponent that is free to parry while the other three Dog Boys can use their rifles with impunity.
When one Dog Boy's armor gets whittled down to a danger zone (or, with the GI-Joe rule, to zero), that one can swap places with one of the ones in the back, staying out of range and using his rifle while a fully-armored Dog Boy engages the enemy in his place.

Alternatively, they can all concentrate rifle fire on one Fenry, just taking hits until that one is dropped, then, the dogs with damaged armor can fall back while some of the ones that haven't taken any hits engage in melee.

This is not a bad plan either. Especially the swapping out of melee combatants. And as long as that was how this pack was trained, I can see it working.

I notice you keep mentioning that G.I. Joe rule, like a burr in your saddle you can't forget and won't let anyone else, either.

[Killer Cyborg]

I notice you keep mentioning that G.I. Joe rule, like a burr in your saddle you can't forget and won't let anyone else, either.

It's in the official rules.
As much as I dislike it, I can't ignore it when working through scenarios like this, since it's how things officially work.

It actually changes the dynamics of combat quite a bit.

[Cybermancer]

It actually changes the dynamics of combat quite a bit.

Yup, it does.

Which is why I don't run my games using it. But of course, discussion on the boards requires the commanality of the canon rules.

[Crucible]

This is where you get into the hack 'n' slash vs. roleplay controversy...one in which has caused arguments at the WotC site. Its a thinking man's game, they would do as a pack of trained dogs would do against a grizzly bear. Keep coming at angles until they are put down for good. I have seen a 1st level nobody take out vampires, demons, so on. Its all about good eventful roleplay.

[Lenwen]

This is where you get into the hack 'n' slash vs. roleplay controversy...one in which has caused arguments at the WotC site. Its a thinking man's game, they would do as a pack of trained dogs would do against a grizzly bear. Keep coming at angles until they are put down for good. I have seen a 1st level nobody take out vampires, demons, so on. Its all about good eventful roleplay.

I've never seen a 1st lvl nobody take out anything ..

I've seen 1st lvl "Heroic" bigger then life Player Characters .. take out some nasty stuff tho

[Crucible]

This is where you get into the hack 'n' slash vs. roleplay controversy...one in which has caused arguments at the WotC site. Its a thinking man's game, they would do as a pack of trained dogs would do against a grizzly bear. Keep coming at angles until they are put down for good. I have seen a 1st level nobody take out vampires, demons, so on. Its all about good eventful roleplay.

I've never seen a 1st lvl nobody take out anything ..

I've seen 1st lvl "Heroic" bigger then life Player Characters .. take out some nasty stuff tho

true

[Lenwen]

My question is do you guys allow Dogboy Strength ..

To be able to Parry the Supernatural Strength of the Fenry with out any penalties or possible injuries ?

Being hit by a Fenry is likened to being hit by a Cement Truck loaded with its Cement .. So how do you parry such a powerful strike with basic normal human strength lvls ?

Or is that even possible ?

[MikelAmroni]

I was actually going to run a scenario and roll this out and then write it up for all to see, but I figured that was a lot of work for what would be decried as one sided (even though I still don't know who won, cause I never ran it all the way).

But a few things to remember. Fenry are pack hunters themselves. They understand pack tactics quite well. They don't understand the ability of their foe to sense their very magic, but they can anticipate many things. I had the Fenry hunting the dogpack at first, and it would then turn into a more balanced give and take fight. The Fenry would concentrate on one target at a time, and then move on to the next. Each dropped member would weaken the pack. Of course the Fenry, while tough, are not numerous.

My assumptions were this:
4th level Dogboys (stats out of Coalition Overkill for simplicity)
One Heavy Weapons, Two Close Combat, two troopers/scouts
One 4th level Psi-stalker (stats out of Coalition Overkill for simplicity)
I had intended to run it with both CWC weapons and with main book weapons, seeing if the tech made a difference.

Two fenry, one bigger than the other (one having slightly more MDC than the other), both using their psionics to the maximum advantage (same for the CS Squad)

The fenry were on a hunting vacation with a pick up in a week, the dogpack was on extended range patrol - both are in heavy woods with streams and lakes nearby. This is a natural hunting environment, not the arena crud Lenwen suggested. Sorry its not only too artificial, its way to forced on both. The only way it would happen like that is if they were both slaves in Atlantis, and even then they might both be put in the preserves with eyelor cameras following them. And it also changes the morale issues a LOT putting them in an Atlantis arena.

[MikelAmroni]

It fits their personality entirely. Shar-payn and Kil-rah were the names of the demons I had for the scenario.


Shar-Payn paced back and forth, tail whipping through the air with every grumble. "I need a break, that d*mn demon lord is about to get on my last nerve! Track that escaped slave, hunt down those errant minions! he treats us like a dog, not a demon!"

"Well why don't you go hunting? It always calms you down," Kil-rah offered helpfully. Kil-rah had been Shar-payn's friend and hunt companion for years.

"Because I am tired of hunting slaves. They give no real thrill to the hunt. Its like hunting dumb animals!" Shar-payn's annoynance only managed to grow.

"Syr'tayl said he went hunting in an distant dimension where even the animals can put up a fight. Some sort of lizard, but the real fun was hunting the inhabitants. They wounded him enough that he had to spend a few days recovering from his hunting trip."

The fenry's eyes go wide. "Really? I haven't had a fight like that since that Bal-rog decided to go rogue!"

"Go ask Syr'tayl, he can point you to who helped him get there. I think he was gone a week. And count me in too!"

"You've got it!" With that, Shar-payn bounded off to find Syr'tayl.

[Crazy Lou]

My question is do you guys allow Dogboy Strength ..

To be able to Parry the Supernatural Strength of the Fenry with out any penalties or possible injuries ?

Being hit by a Fenry is likened to being hit by a Cement Truck loaded with its Cement .. So how do you parry such a powerful strike with basic normal human strength lvls ?

Or is that even possible ?

I'm really NOT interested in that debate AGAIN... so i'll go with the short easy answer: nothing in canon ever puts anything remotely resembling the slightest hint of a rule against anyone/thing parrying anyone/thing else, regardless of strength or any other similar factors. Therefore, for the purposes of a straight canon head-to-head scenario such as this, the dog pack is allowed to parry the SN PS fenry with no penaties or objections.

[killhound]

that would be the problem the ranged wepons thats why i say stay at range and gun them down whitch is a common tactic and trained for in dealing with such threats. still a win for the dogboys. as for the cs projects well, sense dr bradford likes to think out side the box on his genetic experiments we now have dogboy with mom implants and other things like that of course quite a few dogboys ended up chacing there tails untill they die a dog boy is not just a dogboy anymore.

[Lenwen]

i say stay at range and gun them down

I agree this is by far and away .. thee absolute best way to fight those demons. If they get thier claw's on your .. your toast.

a dog boy is not just a dogboy anymore

Which beg's the question ..

Why is it only the Coalition's Racial Character Classes .. now being able to choose Occupation's when no one elses Racial classes are able too ?

Is this simply another attempt to further empower the Coalition .. and not anyone else ?

Or am I missing something here ? Are other Racial class's now able to choose Occupations as well as those of the Coalition ?

[Crazy Lou]

i say stay at range and gun them down

I agree this is by far and away .. thee absolute best way to fight those demons. If they get thier claw's on your .. your toast.

a dog boy is not just a dogboy anymore

Which beg's the question ..

Why is it only the Coalition's Racial Character Classes .. now being able to choose Occupation's when no one elses Racial classes are able too ?

Is this simply another attempt to further empower the Coalition .. and not anyone else ?

Or am I missing something here ? Are other Racial class's now able to choose Occupations as well as those of the Coalition ?

Even before a specific effort to clarify the differences b/t RCCs and races was being made, there were other, non-coalition classes that could take OCCs. Lots of them (take a brief look at CB1 and you'll find a great number of examples). The problem was that it was irregular whether they were stated to be allowed or not.

Take a look at WB30 now though. That's helped clear up the question on a large number of races. There are now LOADS of races that can take a class. The Coalition has a lot of questionable things, like the sustainability of its absurdly large military, and the validity of its justification of D-Bee policies, but races and classes don't factor into their issues one bit. At all.