Cheapest MDC rifle/pistol to use?

[Killer Cyborg]

Without price-comparing, I'd say that the L-20 is what you're looking for.

[rat_bastard]

Naruni plasma cartridge weapons by far, they can be as cheap as 15 credits a shot.

[Kagashi]

JA-12 has the most bang for the buck. For a measly 55K book price (personally, in my games, its at least 200K and rare), you get a sniper laser rifle with a 4K foot range that deals damage 1D6x10+10 (or is it +8). dont have time to swap eclips? So what...it has an internal canister with extra shots. Fighting somebody with Impervious to Energy? So what! It has grenades (which can use those nifty Naruni grenades that do 6D6 per shot) that does kinetic damage. Oh yeah, those grenades have a 2000 foot range too. JA-12...the pound-for-pound winner among Munchkin gear. You can get a Samson Power Armor armed with a JA-12 for less than 1 million credits.

[rat_bastard]

The OP said NA and Triax. I think that means that weapons of alien manufacture are out of consideration, meaning no Naruni.

Considering north america is where Naruni does all of its sales on earth its hardly an outlandish choice.

A second would be crossbow with modern bolts 100-300 shot

A Triax Pump weapon 200-400 a shot

A Bandito arms Bigbore weapon 15-30 credits a shot.

[Mack]

and most important of all... excellent e-clip capacity (hence the 'cheapest to use').

In that case, then the metric you need is MD per e-clip.

Using the L-20 as an example, it inflicts 2D6 MD per shot, and has 40 shots per short-clip or 50 per long-clip. The average of 2D6 is 7, so an entire short clip is 280 MDC and an entire long is 350 MDC. (Note, this gets more complicated if you use a weapon that "bursts" instead of "pulses" because some shots miss.)

The average recharge cost of a short clip is 1350 credits, or 2250 credits for a long (RUE, p268). So, to calculate the best "bang for your buck" divide the total MDC by the recharge cost. A L-20 with a short clip comes out to 0.207 MDC/cr, and the long clip 0.156 MDC/cr. Using the short clip is more economical. [Notice that long clips are 66% more expensive to recharge. You'll only want to use them in weapons that give 66% more payload than short clips, such as the NG-L5 or JA-11 (RUE p270). Otherwise, stick with short clips.]

Now run the same calcuation for any other weapon you're interested in. The NG-L5 comes out to 0.093 MDC/cr, and the Wilk's 447 to 0.156 MDC/cr. When compared to the L-20, both are more expensive. And the Triax TX-30 has the same numbers as the L-20, but a slight cheaper purchase price (which I left out of all the above).

[Danger]

The OP said NA and Triax. I think that means that weapons of alien manufacture are out of consideration, meaning no Naruni.

Considering north america is where Naruni does all of its sales on earth its hardly an outlandish choice.

And considering that Naruni is stringently repressed by the CS, its hardly easy to find. Most GMs I've played with (including myself) have stressed that finding Naruni weaponry is like finding a minor artifact in D&D. You're only likely to run into it once, and you can't have multiples. Which is reasonable if you want to maintain a semblance of balance. It's the most powerful stuff in the game.

Not to mention the cost of purchasing said Naruni gun. The ammo might not be expensive, but the initial cost could be prohibitive. And of course there's always the problem of someone identifying the weapon as Naruni tech...

[runebeo]

There are Universal E-Clip Rechargers in merc ops book their the size of a suitcase and can charge 8 E-Clips at same time and even charge Naruni E-clips. The cost is 1 million to 2.5 million. Think about jury rigging one of these to damn near anything for some extra energy. Take a look at Rifts Merc Ops its full on prime equipment.

[cchopps]

In our game Naruni Weapons are easily attained in the New west, but getting it repaired is very costly since its alien tech and sure the ammo is cheap to start,

You can always take Naruni up on their offers of credit! Just be sure to pay on time or your gear won't be working when you are surrounded by RepoBots.

C. Chopps

[Talavar]

How is Naruni gear difficult to get when 2 major city-states in North America have frickin' Naruni dealerships (MercTown & Los Alamos)? I mean, I can understand some GMs not wanting it to be common, as it's pretty powerful stuff, but unless they're altering the setting for their own play, it shouldn't be that hard. And getting marked for death by the CS just for carrying/using Naruni gear can be a balancing factor that shouldnt' be disregarded.

[Killer Cyborg]

How is Naruni gear difficult to get when 2 major city-states in North America have frickin' Naruni dealerships (MercTown & Los Alamos)?

Not everybody lives near those 2 cities.

[rat_bastard]

The OP said NA and Triax. I think that means that weapons of alien manufacture are out of consideration, meaning no Naruni.

Considering north america is where Naruni does all of its sales on earth its hardly an outlandish choice.

And considering that Naruni is stringently repressed by the CS, its hardly easy to find. Most GMs I've played with (including myself) have stressed that finding Naruni weaponry is like finding a minor artifact in D&D. You're only likely to run into it once, and you can't have multiples. Which is reasonable if you want to maintain a semblance of balance. It's the most powerful stuff in the game.

[Talavar]

That's assuming the CS doesn't have a way to covertly keep tabs on Naruni Enterprises in those two towns. Which they DO have ways to do so.

And yes, it is that hard. That's what the Ultimate Edition and later books imply, and I am going by that, even if it isn't fully explained.

Does Ultimate Edition even mention the Naruni? If it does, I couldn't find it. But what other later books are you going by? Because MercTown & Naruni Wave 2 are "later" books, ie. set in 109 PA, and both make Naruni gear seem pretty available to anyone with character mobility.

And to suggest that the CS spies on what everyone buys in MercTown is faintly implausible, but even assuming they could, what are they going to do about it - start another war? They certainly could vs. MercTown, but they better hope Naruni Enterprises doesn't care enough to defend itself, unless they want Chi-town levelled to make room for a corporate parking lot.

It's fine if you just don't want to use Naruni gear, but the previously stated rationale for it doesn't fly.

Does anyone else think Palladium seems conflicted on Naruni gear in Rifts (as opposed to Phase World I mean)? They get introduced in Mercenaries, they get largely eliminated in what - Coalition War Campaign? Then they're back with even better gear that's more accessible than before the purge in Naruni Wave 2 and MercTown - what's the deal?

[Danger]

How is Naruni gear difficult to get when 2 major city-states in North America have frickin' Naruni dealerships (MercTown & Los Alamos)?

Not everybody lives near those 2 cities.

And not everyone can get to and from those cities safely, or have the knowledge that Naruni dealerships exist in said places. Communications are much more limited in Rifts. It's like asking someone in remote Africa to point you in the direction of the nearest Lamborghini dealership.

[Danger]

The OP said NA and Triax. I think that means that weapons of alien manufacture are out of consideration, meaning no Naruni.

Considering north america is where Naruni does all of its sales on earth its hardly an outlandish choice.

And considering that Naruni is stringently repressed by the CS, its hardly easy to find. Most GMs I've played with (including myself) have stressed that finding Naruni weaponry is like finding a minor artifact in D&D. You're only likely to run into it once, and you can't have multiples. Which is reasonable if you want to maintain a semblance of balance. It's the most powerful stuff in the game.

Naruni weapons are banned in many of the games I've played in.

[Talavar]

The Coalition is at war with NE, pure and simple.

The Coalition may be at war with the Naruni, but the Naruni aren't at war with the CS, a very important distinction. I meant a war with MercTown though.

And not everyone can get to and from those cities safely, or have the knowledge that Naruni dealerships exist in said places. Communications are much more limited in Rifts. It's like asking someone in remote Africa to point you in the direction of the nearest Lamborghini dealership.

It really isn't like that at all. MercTown is in the heart of inhabited North America. It's on the edge of the Magic Zone, but also relatively close to Kingsdale, Whykin, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, and CS territory. Any adventurer in North America should hear about MercTown pretty early in their career, and it's no harder to get there than anywhere else in the region.

[Ale Golem]

The OP said NA and Triax. I think that means that weapons of alien manufacture are out of consideration, meaning no Naruni.

Considering north america is where Naruni does all of its sales on earth its hardly an outlandish choice.

And considering that Naruni is stringently repressed by the CS, its hardly easy to find. Most GMs I've played with (including myself) have stressed that finding Naruni weaponry is like finding a minor artifact in D&D. You're only likely to run into it once, and you can't have multiples. Which is reasonable if you want to maintain a semblance of balance. It's the most powerful stuff in the game.

Last GM I had dumped them in our lap by, literally, the truckload. We had more Naruni stuff than we knew what to do with. The rub was we were only fighting vampires.

[Talavar]

If you've got magic, the best bang for the buck is a Nuhr Dwarf's musket rifle - it does 6d6 MD, has 50 shots and only costs 40 PPE to reload. Now that's an efficient use of PPE!

[Subjugator]

If you've got magic, the best bang for the buck is a Nuhr Dwarf's musket rifle - it does 6d6 MD, has 50 shots and only costs 40 PPE to reload. Now that's an efficient use of PPE!

Where's that?

[glitterboy2098]

source book 4: coalition navy. it's in the part about queenston harbor. the nuhr dwarves are a race from a more steampunkish version of palladium fantasy, and they use a form of weak rune magic that doesn't require trapping souls.

[rat_bastard]

source book 4: coalition navy. it's in the part about queenston harbor. the nuhr dwarves are a race from a more steampunkish version of palladium fantasy, and they use a form of weak rune magic that doesn't require trapping souls.

Yeah they are revisited in D-bees of north amarica, a nuhr dwarf rune smith is high on the list of things I would love to play along with a Starke spinne Rogue scientist and a Snellig spine Battle Magus.

[Mack]

If you've got magic, the best bang for the buck is a Nuhr Dwarf's musket rifle - it does 6d6 MD, has 50 shots and only costs 40 PPE to reload. Now that's an efficient use of PPE!

Where's that?

It's also on p323 of the BoM.

[sHaka]

The never ending TW pistol is also a good Magical weapon for your buck but its SDC and a pistol

Perfect choice for an Apok, and it was staring me right in the face all along!

[Shades of Eternity]

yup and grenades are usually a lot cheaper then the e-clips as well.

hell A mortar costs 2000 Credits in rifts, and it's ammo is roughly the same cost as a CS grenades. Comparing that with prices of a simple wlk's 320 laser pistol which is 11,000 credits, and the very expensive cost of recharging e-clips makes the mortar very cheap indeed. You can train 3 man teams with it and the cost goes down even further.

[Mack]

For only 20K you get the a C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle that does up to 4D6 single shot and can be set to 3 round burst. It also has an added E-Clip canister in addition to clips giving it up to 60 blasts. It's accurate and reliable with built in night vision and laser targeting. I know you didn't care about S.D.C. but it has an S.D.C. setting as well which is great for hunting and since you might be a Wilderness Scout, a good S.D.C. hunting weapon is important for that class.

Not quite. As of RUE, the C-12 has a single shot damage of 2D6 MD, a 3-round burst of 6D6 MD, and the lower power setting of 6D6 SDC.

There has been much debate in the past that the original description in the Rifts Main Book was worded poorly. That the 4D6 setting was simply the 5-round burst of 2D6 (2 out of 5 shots hit per the burst rule, 2D6x2 or 4D6) and that the C-12 was never intended to inflict 4D6 MD on a single shot. There are many supporters and detractors of this arguement. Note to all: We are not re-opening that debate. Regardless, the RUE version only inflicts 2D6 MD on a single shot.

[Mack]

Really? My Third Printing of RUE July 2008 says it has 3 settings, one 6d6 S.D.C., two M.D.C. settings of 2D6 and 4D6. Then says the rifle can also be set fire a single shot or a burst of 3. Pretty much the way it's written in the RUE errata section of this forum. Where does it change it?

Oh goody, more changes. My copy is First Printing August 2005, with the info I wrote above.

[Killer Cyborg]

Really? My Third Printing of RUE July 2008 says it has 3 settings, one 6d6 S.D.C., two M.D.C. settings of 2D6 and 4D6. Then says the rifle can also be set fire a single shot or a burst of 3. Pretty much the way it's written in the RUE errata section of this forum. Where does it change it?

Oh goody, more changes. My copy is First Printing August 2005, with the info I wrote above.

The way you have it makes more sense to me. A 4D6 burst of 3 would be very powerful. Would be nice to get an official ruling on this gun and it's replacement the C-40. I would like them to keep the 4D6 single shots for sniping but a 6D6 burst seems reasonable.

Here's an old thread to give you some of the background on the C-12:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26496&start=0

And from a thread from 2005, when I met Kevin at GenCon:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=45043

The C-12
I asked him how it was supposed to work. He said that the 4d6 setting was the 5-shot burst setting (a theory that Doom has always pushed), and the 2d6 setting was a single shot setting.
I pointed out that the C-12 is probably the only laser rifle with a preset Burst setting instead of a preset pulse setting, and explained my house rule that the C-12 should have a 5-shot pulse that does 1d6x10 MD instead of a 5-shot burst that does 2d6 MD. The CP-40 would still be a logical upgrade simply because it uses less ammo, but it would keep the C-12 as a respectable alternative.
KS made a note of my rule, although I have no idea if anything will come from it.
(This was before it was pointed out to me that the C-12 in RUE has been changed to fire a 3-shot burst, making it identical to the CP-40)

I don't think I have a recent copy of RUE, so I can't look at any changes that may have been made, but that right there tells you what the original intent was.

[Mack]

And that's as far as we're going to go regarding the C-12.

[Rallan]

Not to mention the cost of purchasing said Naruni gun. The ammo might not be expensive, but the initial cost could be prohibitive. And of course there's always the problem of someone identifying the weapon as Naruni tech...

I've always felt that was an ass-backwards business model on Naruni's part. Naruni ammunition is a product that cannot be affordably duplicated by any Rifts Earth power (except Lord Splynncryth of course, since it's probably a given that the Splugorth and their Kittani and Kydian engineers will have reverse-engineered most of the most common Naruni stuff already), and they could ramp up the price of Plasma Cartridges rather a lot and still be priced extremely competitively against E-clips (and even more competitively against grenades and missiles).

Meanwhile the guns that fire plasma cartridges? Well, they're energy weapons with all the complicated bits taken out. There's no electronics, no power supply, nothing to generate plasma, no wiggy quantum mechanical stuff going on. The inside of a plasma cartridge weapon is basically just the internal workings of a 20th century firearm, only oversized and made from materials that can withstand whatever goes on inside a plasma weapon. And by rights it should be insanely cheap to build, since it doesn't contain any of the fiendishly expensive internal parts that all its competitors' weapons have. And more importantly, it's so ridiculously easy to copy that charging a high price just provides a massive incentive for usncrupulous rivals and criminal organizations to make knock-offs.

All in all, they should be bumping up the price of their cartridges and selling the actual weapons at a price which reflects their cheap and easy manufacture. Hell, they should probably be selling them at a loss, just to lock in more customers who've got nobody except licensed Naruni dealers to turn to when they want more ammunition.

[Killer Cyborg]

Who says there's no internal electronics to Naruni weapons? Maybe they are electrically fired guns like the metalstorm and have complex, 'so far impossible' to crack encryption that says only Naruni guns can fire Naruni rounds.

Because you can also set one off by putting a nail under it and stepping on it (RGMG 64).
Which means it fires just like a shotgun shell or standard bullet.

[Rallan]

Who says there's no internal electronics to Naruni weapons? Maybe they are electrically fired guns like the metalstorm and have complex, 'so far impossible' to crack encryption that says only Naruni guns can fire Naruni rounds.

Because you can also set one off by putting a nail under it and stepping on it (RGMG 64).
Which means it fires just like a shotgun shell or standard bullet.

And in all the books that cartridge weapons turn up in, they're described as working by having a mechanical trigger hit a primer on the cartridge. And the revolver variant of the pistol (first shown in an early Phase World sourcebook) is described as being very popular in frontier regions because of how easy the revolver mechanism is to maintain and repair.

Doesn't sound much like there's complex electronics or internal parts that only Naruni dealers can fix.

[Killer Cyborg]

That plasma formula must be complex if people can't knock that stuff off, still would be easy to knock off the expensive weapons themselves then just take advantage of the cheap ammo.

Every other plasma weapon I know of uses totally different technology, since they generate plasma from E-clips.
So I imagine that it would be pretty tricky to copy the ammo.

But yeah, the weapons themselves would probably be pretty easy to copy.

[Rallan]

Yeah it doesn't. I don't have any of the Naruni books handy so could not really look it up. Just seemed stupid to have it be so simple, charge so much and have practically no knock-offs. The Naruni must be the baddest mo-fo's in the Megaverse if not even the Splugorth knock off their weapons.

Stupid and typical. Wouldn't be the first thing in Rifts where no thought was put into it beyond "Yeah this'd be pretty badass".

[rat_bastard]

Who says there's no internal electronics to Naruni weapons? Maybe they are electrically fired guns like the metalstorm and have complex, 'so far impossible' to crack encryption that says only Naruni guns can fire Naruni rounds.

Because you can also set one off by putting a nail under it and stepping on it (RGMG 64).
Which means it fires just like a shotgun shell or standard bullet.

then yeah that is dumb. I guess the only reason they can make the weapons expensive would be because they have to be so strong to resist the plasma explosions. /shrug But yeah I agree seems backwards now, make weapons cheap and ammo more expensive. That plasma formula must be complex if people can't knock that stuff off, still would be easy to knock off the expensive weapons themselves then just take advantage of the cheap ammo.

In my game the Naruni are practically giving their guns to the merc group but charging normal price for the ammunition, and in New Alexandria a plasma cartridge is often used as legal tender.

[Greyaxe]

Yeah it doesn't. I don't have any of the Naruni books handy so could not really look it up. Just seemed stupid to have it be so simple, charge so much and have practically no knock-offs. The Naruni must be the baddest mo-fo's in the Megaverse if not even the Splugorth knock off their weapons.

Stupid and typical. Wouldn't be the first thing in Rifts where no thought was put into it beyond "Yeah this'd be pretty badass".

Actually there is a company in the Anvil galaxy called The Hartigal Combine. They knock off Naruni gear and sell for 50% price. And yes if you read the descriptions of the Naruni in Phase World,,,,, they are that badass. Look forward to the Fleets fo the Three Galaxies for information regarding Naruni Fleets and delivery options.

[Greyaxe]

Yeah it doesn't. I don't have any of the Naruni books handy so could not really look it up. Just seemed stupid to have it be so simple, charge so much and have practically no knock-offs. The Naruni must be the baddest mo-fo's in the Megaverse if not even the Splugorth knock off their weapons.

Stupid and typical. Wouldn't be the first thing in Rifts where no thought was put into it beyond "Yeah this'd be pretty badass".

Actually there is a company in the Anvil galaxy called The Hartigal Combine. They knock off Naruni gear and sell for 50% price. And yes if you read the descriptions of the Naruni in Phase World,,,,, they are that badass. Look forward to the Fleets fo the Three Galaxies for information regarding Naruni Fleets and delivery options.

I mentioned the Hartigal Combine as the only ones to knock it off, well not knock it off, they splintered off from Naruni and basically stole all their plans. Still that just makes me wonder why Hartigal gets away with it yet truly major superpowers(like the Splugorth) are not making knocking offs themselves.

It's suggested that the Naruni may be related to the Splugorth in some way. Maybe a sub species, maybe the Splugorth are secretly backing the True Naruni? Just a few ideas, could make for a cool campaign.

[Hystrix]

You really wanna be cheap? Just have you character make his own Pipe Rifle and Zip Gun, and fire WI Ramjet rounds. They're about 5-10 CR a pop, and will do MD (sort of --- like 1D4 or 1D6 depending on caliber). The cost for the rifle will be almoast negligable. 'Course, you'll be shooting pea shooters, but hey! Cheap pea shooters.

[GaredBattlespike]

I do not know why people bother with the Naruni Cartridge Wepons.
The CS makes having those things such a pain.

My solution: The NG-11S Shotgun!

Cheep to get; Less than 8,000 cr.
Cheep to arm it; Armor Piercing Ram-Jet rounds are only 20 cr each!!!

2D6 MDC per APRJ round at 20 cr each, means the 200 cr gets you 5 full reloads and 4D6 MDC per full load.

Also, it has the advantage of causing PHYSICAL damage, so "Impervious to Energy Spell" fails to help.