cs literacy revisited

[csbioborg]

okay I know this is kinda beating dead horse but hear me out

one of the arguements for a how the CS can be illerate is they have plenty of symbols so the average citizen can navigate through his everyday life at work etc.

so in our modern day society we have examples of that stop sign being red hexagons
walk being a green man
no smoking circle line though cigarrette etc


so anyway this is all to supplement everybody's command of the english lanuage.

However if you lived in a truly illerate high tech society there would have to be thosands of symbols for a person to work shop etc

wouldn't this naturally evolve into another written lanuage

you'd bascially have each citizen "literate" in some form of pictograph lanuage. Making him able to write out symbols just like the summerians and other anicient cultures.

[kaid]

The citizens while not literate are iconerate they get used to the icons and symbols and probably even some words. Right now there is a good chunk of our own population thats not terribly literate but the way the internet and signs work they can still function just fine.

I imagine most of their troops can at least read some basic stuff otherwise using high tech armor and weapons would be very tough but while they can read the stuff they need to you put a book infront of them and they would be stumped. Their reading ability is basically if I see this series of symbols in this context it means this. Which is literacy of a sort but a very low level one and without the context they are used to most would find it hard or impossible to get meaning from them.

[csbioborg]

The citizens while not literate are iconerate they get used to the icons and symbols and probably even some words. Right now there is a good chunk of our own population thats not terribly literate but the way the internet and signs work they can still function just fine.

I imagine most of their troops can at least read some basic stuff otherwise using high tech armor and weapons would be very tough but while they can read the stuff they need to you put a book infront of them and they would be stumped. Their reading ability is basically if I see this series of symbols in this context it means this. Which is literacy of a sort but a very low level one and without the context they are used to most would find it hard or impossible to get meaning from them.

I am saying all a citizen knew was pictographs he'd be able to write those symbols say "go" "icon of a resturant" "night" "for meeting"

that is primitive but you could after some time translate books into pictogrpahs sure you'd lost some sybolism and context but there still would be a exchange of ideas

[Library Ogre]

You're assuming several things.

1) The the iconography is advanced and varied enough to make this practical.
2) People are thinking of things like this. That ties into...
3) It is easier to do this than it is to record a voice message.

If the iconography isn't advanced enough to do this, people can't without developing their own pictograms. If no one is thinking of using the current icons as pictograms, it's not going to happen. And, lastly, if it's not easier to do, most people will not.

You may have some groups doing this, but #3 means its unlikely to see wide use.

[csbioborg]

You're assuming several things.

1) The the iconography is advanced and varied enough to make this practical.
2) People are thinking of things like this. That ties into...
3) It is easier to do this than it is to record a voice message.

If the iconography isn't advanced enough to do this, people can't without developing their own pictograms. If no one is thinking of using the current icons as pictograms, it's not going to happen. And, lastly, if it's not easier to do, most people will not.

You may have some groups doing this, but #3 means its unlikely to see wide use.

I'm saying that as a function of living in a hightech society the icongraphy would be forced to develop if there was no written lanuage. People wouldn't need to think of it. It would be forced upon them if they hoped to function as mechnicas computer programers. So it problay is easier to record a voice message but the system would be there to be used if wanted. THink of text messages today those are pretty impractical if you think about it.

[Greyaxe]

This is a good argument for "they way we did it" Which was to significantly limit the availability of technology to the average citizen. We played the Coalition like the roaring 20's except with rayguns.

The average person toiled in factories doing repetitive jobs for little money so they could be given (i say given because you are not buying condos you are assigned a living space) the meager means of buying food, for which there is little variety (think of the modern projects of eating what grows within 100 miles) paying for entertainment ripe with propaganda because there isn't anything else. Drinking and smoking your life away in social clubs to celebrate humanity and all its glorious achievements. Technology was used in limited ways and typically used to monitor the population, suppress independent thought (making talking the time to publish a book about anything using symbols an act of treason). An estimated 30% of the population was employed by the government to monitor the rest of the population and itself. These are the people who would have limited exposure to a symbol language (techno-can) and use their superior skill sets to communicate to "the supervisors" who would often be anonymous.

Only the military or the propaganda machine would have access to computers e-books or vehicles ( public transit is the norm) and yes pictures do speak a thousand words. And were often used to train infantry I agree you could probably have picture books, to tell stories, comics of Heroic Deadboys beating D-Bees great victories and the spoils of war. Very limited in variety but repeated adnausium to create heroes and idols to look up to. Deadboys would direct traffic, what little there would be, and act as police for the general population. Psi stalkers and Dog boys would come out at night when the Closed Circuit TV's were least effective to not only patrol for D-Bees, psychics and mages, but to monitor the population as well.

So how do PC’s exist at all? The Black Market. It plays a vital role in the transmission and exchange of goods. These people use language and technology regularly and are often educated and skilled. This small percentage of the population are, according to the state, criminals. Unfortunately because gammers always play PC’s the perception is that is the way the average citizen lives. The Player Characters are the extraordinary among the masses. The population is totally illiterate and a Picture language would be crushed before it begins.

[Mack]

My personal modifications...
--Literacy isn't banned, but discouraged as unnecessary.
--All books are e-books. The CS has an extensive program to scan all e-books as a means of information control.
--All paper books are banned / destroyed. The CS Propaganda office invented a story connecting paper books with the Federation of Magic as part of an evil plot (spells were hidden inside ordinary text, and unwitting readers could set them off! Oh no!). As a service to the people, "approved" paper books are collected and scanned into e-book library database, and everyone can get a e-book free from the government.

I think that maintains Big Kevin's intent, but is more plausible.

[csbioborg]

My personal modifications...
--Literacy isn't banned, but discouraged as unnecessary.
--All books are e-books. The CS has an extensive program to scan all e-books as a means of information control.
--All paper books are banned / destroyed. The CS Propaganda office invented a story connecting paper books with the Federation of Magic as part of an evil plot (spells were hidden inside ordinary text, and unwitting readers could set them off! Oh no!). As a service to the people, "approved" paper books are collected and scanned into e-book library database, and everyone can get a e-book free from the government.

I think that maintains Big Kevin's intent, but is more plausible.

we defientely do a lot of book burning in my CS but every soldier has a his basic skills handbook to tak out into te field so he can idenitfy various types of dbees and the best way to kill them

I could see books just becoming obsolete in favor of ebooks
like amazon's kindle device and the CS not really needing to do a overt push to eliminate them

[rat_bastard]

My personal modifications...
--Literacy isn't banned, but discouraged as unnecessary.
--All books are e-books. The CS has an extensive program to scan all e-books as a means of information control.
--All paper books are banned / destroyed. The CS Propaganda office invented a story connecting paper books with the Federation of Magic as part of an evil plot (spells were hidden inside ordinary text, and unwitting readers could set them off! Oh no!). As a service to the people, "approved" paper books are collected and scanned into e-book library database, and everyone can get a e-book free from the government.

I think that maintains Big Kevin's intent, but is more plausible.

we defientely do a lot of book burning in my CS but every soldier has a his basic skills handbook to tak out into te field so he can idenitfy various types of dbees and the best way to kill them

I could see books just becoming obsolete in favor of ebooks
like amazon's kindle device and the CS not really needing to do a overt push to eliminate them

Are you serious?

how detailed does training need to be to shoot the thing that does not look like me?

[rat_bastard]

Are you serious?

how detailed does training need to be to shoot the thing that does not look like me?

Military training involves alot more than just blasting everything that looks weird. All the skills a 1st level cs troops have is only just been beaten into their heads. So naturaly the leaders might give those troops a manual to fall back on incase a situation develops in the heat of battle when those troops are under duress.

But I see it more as a program written into the armor's HUD that gives an audio/visual aid rather than written instructions.

Dude,

re-read the CS grunt OCC and tell me they are given more sophisticated training.

they are taught to follow spoken orders, use a radio, do push ups and shoot.

THATS IT

the CS grunt is the poorest trained trooper the world because all they have to do is march at in the direction an officer points and shoot at anything weird.

[csbioborg]

Are you serious?

how detailed does training need to be to shoot the thing that does not look like me?

Military training involves alot more than just blasting everything that looks weird. All the skills a 1st level cs troops have is only just been beaten into their heads. So naturaly the leaders might give those troops a manual to fall back on incase a situation develops in the heat of battle when those troops are under duress.

But I see it more as a program written into the armor's HUD that gives an audio/visual aid rather than written instructions.

welcome back rnc long time no see

[csbioborg]

My personal modifications...
--Literacy isn't banned, but discouraged as unnecessary.
--All books are e-books. The CS has an extensive program to scan all e-books as a means of information control.
--All paper books are banned / destroyed. The CS Propaganda office invented a story connecting paper books with the Federation of Magic as part of an evil plot (spells were hidden inside ordinary text, and unwitting readers could set them off! Oh no!). As a service to the people, "approved" paper books are collected and scanned into e-book library database, and everyone can get a e-book free from the government.

I think that maintains Big Kevin's intent, but is more plausible.

we defientely do a lot of book burning in my CS but every soldier has a his basic skills handbook to tak out into te field so he can idenitfy various types of dbees and the best way to kill them

I could see books just becoming obsolete in favor of ebooks
like amazon's kindle device and the CS not really needing to do a overt push to eliminate them

Are you serious?

how detailed does training need to be to shoot the thing that does not look like me?

well since I like to depict a somewhat realistic military
they recieve training on how to effectively kill the thing that does not look like me
if they were so poorly trained how is it the CS is the dominant power
moreover why would the CS intentionally train their military poorly?

this is a xititix this is how you killl it

this is a daemonix this is how you kill it

not shoot anyting that moves the same way forget about tactics

[csbioborg]

welcome back rnc long time no see

It's good to be back. For a few weeks anyway.

Dude,
re-read the CS grunt OCC and tell me they are given more sophisticated training.
they are taught to follow spoken orders, use a radio, do push ups and shoot.
THATS IT
the CS grunt is the poorest trained trooper the world because all they have to do is march at in the direction an officer points and shoot at anything weird.

If the CS is the most powerful and feared military on NA right now, then I doubt their standard tactic is for an Lt to point at a demon while yelling "SICK'EM".
Example: In the US Army every single troop has to have training in a class called Combat Lifesaver, or CLS. I teach this class to everyone, even civilian and law enforcement personnel. Now a tank mechanic isn't trained at AIT to know CLS, nor is it in the job description, but in a fire fight, his buddy beside him might get shot and the only one anywhere near him is the grease monkey. Well that mechanic has been taught CLS and now that troop who was shot has a very good chance at living.
So you see, just because it's not in the direct skill package of the average dead boy doesn't mean that trooper wasn't givin some nominal training and a visual aid to back it up.

another example of that is a tank crewman. He dosen't have mechanics in his background but in fleet marinecorps most of the pmcs and mechinic work is done by the actual tank crewman since there are not enough tank mechs to go around by design

[Dog_O_War]

Pictograms - sure, they are used. But really; take for example an airline safety pamphlet. The thing doesn't require some bizarre reading skill to understand. The "pictograms" are of easily identifiable objects. No extra language needed. And that pamphlet relays life-saving inscructions.

I think for the more mundane things (such as "no smoking") it's even easier. I mean, I didn't train or study signs as a child growing up, but through sheer association I knew the first time I passed a road sign saying that the town ahead has water-access (the faucet with droplets) I knew what it was.

And I believe that's the point with signage; take easily identifiable items so that people will know what it might mean.
It's even hard-wired into our persons; take a bee or a wasp for example. The black and yellow rings on them don't mean anything* but because of the colouring, it looks dangerous - like a warning. This warning transends language into something we can understand.

*it's not like mother-nature, or the bees themselves formally submitted to us humans that this infact means "I'm dangerous!" No, it came naturally.

I do believe that there are alot of verbal commands issued; when you go up to a bar and ask for a drink the first time you might not know what you're getting into. The bartender'll likely list off a few drinks and you'll choose one. From there you kinda figure it out.

As far as the military issue is concerned; armies for thousands of years have been using soldiers that only do as rat_bastard stated (or a modified version there-of). Most of these soldiers didn't know how to read, yet the tactics of the time are drilled into their heads.

Basically, you don't need a written language to better convey what visual and audio aids already do (and better in most cases). The example (and credbility of this statement) is this; I can write you a message to change the oil filter on your car, and that you will need x tools of a specific type, a description of what they look like, and step-by-step instructions on how to do this. Even a reason as to why, but that doesn't mean it's better than me handing you the tools and showing you. It takes less time to show and tell than it does to write and learn.

Finally, I thought that literacy was only discouraged within the common populace, as a method of control, and that the upper class of the CS had full access to schools and such. I mean, they will always need someone to farm the land, and work the factories - but without this type of control people might actually begin to have individual thoughts.

Like, "well, I guess not ALL D-Bees are bad. I mean, those Vixens from planet Triplex seemed alright!"

[rat_bastard]

I just went through the 15 CS OCCs again, you know how many of them have Lore as part of their standard training?

two

The RSCG scientist and the Special Forces

you know how many are literate?

three

all officer/specialist classes (eod specialist, RSCG Scientist and the Military specialist).

The CS does not burden their rank and file troops with any information that they don't absolutely need to complete their immediate function. A CS grunt can be a passable vehicle crewman but otherwise is a gun with legs.

another example of that is a tank crewman. He dosen't have mechanics in his background but in fleet marinecorps most of the pmcs and mechinic work is done by the actual tank crewman since there are not enough tank mechs to go around by design

Example: In the US Army every single troop has to have training in a class called Combat Lifesaver, or CLS. I teach this class to everyone, even civilian and law enforcement personnel. Now a tank mechanic isn't trained at AIT to know CLS, nor is it in the job description, but in a fire fight, his buddy beside him might get shot and the only one anywhere near him is the grease monkey. Well that mechanic has been taught CLS and now that troop who was shot has a very good chance at living.
So you see, just because it's not in the direct skill package of the average dead boy doesn't mean that trooper wasn't givin some nominal training and a visual aid to back it up.

Great, except we are talking about the CS Military, not the American Military which has no relevance to our conversation. The discussion is about a military that exists nearly 300 years after the last American died, and they train their soldiers completely different standards. The American Military could require all soldiers to know how to pilot blimps and it would have no bearing on the policies of the CS Military.

The bottom line is the rank and file grunt of the CS Military is not a very well trained soldier, nearly every other nation on earth has a better standard of training. The CS military succeeds because they have better technology, numbers and very well trained officers looking over their shoulders giving them informed orders.

[Dog_O_War]

The American Military could require all soldiers to know how to pilot blimps and it would have no bearing on the policies of the CS Military.

This is how WWIII will be fought you know. Everyone will have personal attack zepplins, born-aloft by all the hot air from politicians, and propelled by burning cow-methane collected on behalf of GreenPeace






If this statement seems abit too out of the blue, it's only cause it struck me funny.

[csbioborg]

I just went through the 15 CS OCCs again, you know how many of them have Lore as part of their standard training?

two

The RSCG scientist and the Special Forces

you know how many are literate?

three

all officer/specialist classes (eod specialist, RSCG Scientist and the Military specialist).

The CS does not burden their rank and file troops with any information that they don't absolutely need to complete their immediate function. A CS grunt can be a passable vehicle crewman but otherwise is a gun with legs.


The bottom line is the rank and file grunt of the CS Military is not a very well trained soldier, nearly every other nation on earth has a better standard of training. The CS military succeeds because they have better technology, numbers and very well trained officers looking over their shoulders giving them informed orders.

The point being made here is you have the most feared military in the Americas and you are arguing the CS intentioally stifles its troops ablites and yet they ran over Tolkeen and its other enemies. All of howm have magic and mdc creatures at their disposal. WHat military that was under constant attack not try to turn their troops into the most efficent killers possible.
Esecapilly when the enemy are literally demons from hell. Dragons that laugh off tank round. HUmans that have made pacts with those demons and now also laugh off damage that would instantly kill a man.


of course I've gone a bit off topic the original point of this thread was my idea that their would be a natural evolution towards a new lanuage if the old one was extingushed
by the nature of the CS being a modern society being maintained by humans. Unlike say one that was so advanced it was fully automated.

[rat_bastard]

Did you read the CS war series?

It took years to beat Tolkeen and even then victory was at incredible cost, they got spanked repeatedly by the smaller Tolkeen army and only won because of a surprise attack that was as much a surprise to the CS as Tolkeen.

[csbioborg]

Did you read the CS war series?

It took years to beat Tolkeen and even then victory was at incredible cost, they got spanked repeatedly by the smaller Tolkeen army and only won because of a surprise attack that was as much a surprise to the CS as Tolkeen.

Ya I read about how Tolkeen used leylines as impentrable force fields stave off nuclear attack. How they summoned leigons of daemonix to do their bidding. Used necromancy to bind mortals to serve them as Iron juggernauts while at the same time had a skull telling them the future. Then their are the hordes of dragons that served them. Any where from lone wolves like the ancient great horned that lost his wife well living in a village that was giving support to tolkeen. All the way to hydras serving the coucil.
Despite all of this the CS troops managed to perservere despite fighting a two front war.

[Killer Cyborg]

However if you lived in a truly illerate high tech society there would have to be thosands of symbols for a person to work shop etc

wouldn't this naturally evolve into another written lanuage

It would depend on how much they rely on the symbols, and what the symbols are.
Many are self-explanatory.

[Killer Cyborg]

My personal modifications...
--Literacy isn't banned, but discouraged as unnecessary.

Last I heard, literacy wasn't illegal in the CS.

[Killer Cyborg]

All the skills a 1st level cs troops have is only just been beaten into their heads. So naturaly the leaders might give those troops a manual to fall back on incase a situation develops in the heat of battle when those troops are under duress.

You're seriously saying that the military, any military, might hand out a book to be read in the heat of battle...?

[Killer Cyborg]

The bottom line is the rank and file grunt of the CS Military is not a very well trained soldier, nearly every other nation on earth has a better standard of training. The CS military succeeds because they have better technology, numbers and very well trained officers looking over their shoulders giving them informed orders.

Source?

[Killer Cyborg]

All the skills a 1st level cs troops have is only just been beaten into their heads. So naturaly the leaders might give those troops a manual to fall back on incase a situation develops in the heat of battle when those troops are under duress.

You're seriously saying that the military, any military, might hand out a book to be read in the heat of battle...?

Yep! And, at least the US Army, is told to have these books on them in a deployment at all times or it could be a punishable offense. Even up to, but not limited to, Court Martial.

Seems implausible.

"Sir, they're flanking us, and they just killed Johnson! What do we do!?"
"Chapter 4: What to Do When You're Being Flanked
First and foremost, do NOT stop fighting in order to... Aarggh!"

[Killer Cyborg]

Myself, being as I am in the military.

1. Soldier's manual of common tasks, warrior skills level(whatever level your at based on rank and MOS qualifications).

2. IET Soldier's handbook, TRADOC pamphlet 600-4 training and doctrine command

3. TRADOC handbook #2, arab cultural awareness: 58 factsheets. (this last one only if deployed to the middle east)

4. CLS handbook for all those certified in the course, which should be everyone in the army.

These are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. Normally every troop in the field has to have these books with them everywhere they go, but in practice we have to yell at the privates everytime we turn around because they can't find theirs.

Most of those could be replaced with an audio version.
We tend to rely heavily on writing because it's something that most people are able to understand.
If most people were illiterate, we could and would use other means.

Of course, the cultural awareness would be unnecessary for the CS.

[csbioborg]

well actually in armor we really do rely on books a lot. Not in combat but for the maintence that is what keeps your tank alive to keep you alive. Every time you pull over you do some checks. And obviously if something goes broke you rely on them. And the privates and lance corprals are the ones that use them the most since they are not that familar with the tank yet.

The same would be truly for maintaining all the fancy equipment you have. That armor or PA needs maintence so does your laser rifle and there is no way there are enough armouers and mechs to maintain them.

[Killer Cyborg]

well actually in armor we really do rely on books a lot. Not in combat but for the maintence that is what keeps your tank alive to keep you alive. Every time you pull over you do some checks. And obviously if something goes broke you rely on them. And the privates and lance corprals are the ones that use them the most since they are not that familar with the tank yet.

I'm betting CS tanks have diagnostic computers built in.

The same would be truly for maintaining all the fancy equipment you have. That armor or PA needs maintence so does your laser rifle and there is no way there are enough armouers and mechs to maintain them.

Energy weapons would have fewer moving parts and therefore fewer (if any) gaps or areas for problems to accumulate.
You probably wouldn't ever need to dismantle the weapon for cleaning, only for repair, making a manual unnecessary in most cases (and in the case of a repair being necessary, an audio/video presentation would likely work better than a book).

[csbioborg]

well actually in armor we really do rely on books a lot. Not in combat but for the maintence that is what keeps your tank alive to keep you alive. Every time you pull over you do some checks. And obviously if something goes broke you rely on them. And the privates and lance corprals are the ones that use them the most since they are not that familar with the tank yet.

I'm betting CS tanks have diagnostic computers built in.

The same would be truly for maintaining all the fancy equipment you have. That armor or PA needs maintence so does your laser rifle and there is no way there are enough armouers and mechs to maintain them.

Energy weapons would have fewer moving parts and therefore fewer (if any) gaps or areas for problems to accumulate.
You probably wouldn't ever need to dismantle the weapon for cleaning, only for repair, making a manual unnecessary in most cases (and in the case of a repair being necessary, an audio/video presentation would likely work better than a book).

we could use a audio visual display today i suppose but the simpler things are the better
you break your SAMAS you going to want a book or something else that is unlikely to break
to tell you what to do

[csbioborg]

Audio and visual has the problem of having to fast forward and rewind just to find the right thing your trying to get instructions on, plus if bad guys are in the area you might run the risk of giving away your position.

Books you can open to the right information you need to quickly by comparison and you can always read to yourself so no one else cann hear you.

Wouldn't books be cheaper to make also considering the CS wouldn't have to print so many? Just enough to give everyone who needs one a copy.

its good to have some back up again

[rat_bastard]

The bottom line is the rank and file grunt of the CS Military is not a very well trained soldier, nearly every other nation on earth has a better standard of training. The CS military succeeds because they have better technology, numbers and very well trained officers looking over their shoulders giving them informed orders.

Source?

Comparing the CS Grunt OCC to the "Grunt" Classes of other nations.

other nations either get "CS Grunt skills"+ some other skills or a skill package that is more impressive.

That said, your standard Tolkien era CS grunt has the second best standard body armor available (Triax has what they have with full optics standard) Good weapons and the most extensive collection of backup vehicles in the world.


But the CS Grunt is the Imperial Storm trooper of rifts earth.

[Natasha]

we could use a audio visual display today i suppose but the simpler things are the better
you break your SAMAS you going to want a book or something else that is unlikely to break
to tell you what to do

Mechanics and software engineers can use techno-can and their training.
They don't need to be literate.

[Killer Cyborg]

The bottom line is the rank and file grunt of the CS Military is not a very well trained soldier, nearly every other nation on earth has a better standard of training. The CS military succeeds because they have better technology, numbers and very well trained officers looking over their shoulders giving them informed orders.

Source?

Comparing the CS Grunt OCC to the "Grunt" Classes of other nations.

I was looking for specific examples.

[rat_bastard]

we could use a audio visual display today i suppose but the simpler things are the better
you break your SAMAS you going to want a book or something else that is unlikely to break
to tell you what to do

Mechanics and software engineers can use techno-can and their training.
They don't need to be literate.

techno can is a written language, by using it they have literacy.

[Killer Cyborg]

we could use a audio visual display today i suppose but the simpler things are the better
you break your SAMAS you going to want a book or something else that is unlikely to break
to tell you what to do

Mechanics and software engineers can use techno-can and their training.
They don't need to be literate.

techno can is a written language, by using it they have literacy.

Only in Techno-Can.

[rat_bastard]

we could use a audio visual display today i suppose but the simpler things are the better
you break your SAMAS you going to want a book or something else that is unlikely to break
to tell you what to do

Mechanics and software engineers can use techno-can and their training.
They don't need to be literate.

techno can is a written language, by using it they have literacy.

Only in Techno-Can.

but saying a person can do a skill that requires literacy without using literacy by using literacy is weird.

[Killer Cyborg]

we could use a audio visual display today i suppose but the simpler things are the better
you break your SAMAS you going to want a book or something else that is unlikely to break
to tell you what to do

Mechanics and software engineers can use techno-can and their training.
They don't need to be literate.

techno can is a written language, by using it they have literacy.

Only in Techno-Can.

but saying a person can do a skill that requires literacy without using literacy by using literacy is weird.

It doesn't require literacy; it is a kind of literacy.

What exactly Techno-Can entails has never been fully described. It could be literacy in symbols, or it could me a more numeric/mathematic form of language.

Either way, IIRC, there is no "Literacy: Techno-Can" skill, only "Techno-Can."

[Natasha]

we could use a audio visual display today i suppose but the simpler things are the better
you break your SAMAS you going to want a book or something else that is unlikely to break
to tell you what to do

Mechanics and software engineers can use techno-can and their training.
They don't need to be literate.

techno can is a written language, by using it they have literacy.

They're not going to be able to read Erin Tarn or publish books denouncing the evils of CS fascism. They'd need somebody literate in an expressive language to do that.

THe point is that people can get by in their day to day lives without being literate - the kind of literate csbioborg was talking about in the OP.

[rat_bastard]

What exactly Techno-Can entails has never been fully described. It could be literacy in symbols, or it could me a more numeric/mathematic form of language.

Either way, IIRC, there is no "Literacy: Techno-Can" skill, only "Techno-Can."

RUE Page 304/305 describe it as a specialized tech language that only has a written form. Its pretty clear its a bunch of technical jargon to amend American (or any language really).

[Natasha]

What exactly Techno-Can entails has never been fully described. It could be literacy in symbols, or it could me a more numeric/mathematic form of language.

Either way, IIRC, there is no "Literacy: Techno-Can" skill, only "Techno-Can."

RUE Page 304/305 describe it as a specialized tech language that only has a written form. Its pretty clear its a bunch of technical jargon to amend American (or any language really).

Techno-can would look like this with even more lingo and jargon that a person who might be literate in English but doesn't read techno-can (and also have laser communications skill) would not understand almost anything of what they're reading:
http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/J ... .html#div5

This is straight forward English and would not qualify as techno-can, however; anybody literate and with advanced maths (in Rifts) can read this and understand more or less what they read because it's not too heavy in the jargon. Probably the most jargonist words are "prograde" and "retrograde".

The basic features of the dynamics, as seen in Fig. 9, are as follows. Firstly, the prograde trajectories are elongated in the Sun–planet direction and the maximum eccentricities are attained when the solar angle is zero; the retrograde orbits are elongated in the direction perpendicular to the Sun–Jupiter line and the eccentricities reach maximum when the solar angle is between 90° and 180°. This directly translates to the geometry of the dust rings formed by the prograde and retrograde satellite ejecta. The prograde ejecta cloud is elongated in the solar direction and is shifted away from the Sun while the retrograde cloud is more extended in the perpendicular direction and is offset toward the Sun (Fig. 11 below).

[Vrykolas2k]

The CS illiteracy makes no sense, especially for soldiers.
Drill Sergeant: "What's your second general order?"
Private: "Hell if I know, we don't get issued soldier's basic manuals, so I couldn't spend any time memorizing those."

[The Galactus Kid]

The CS illiteracy makes no sense, especially for soldiers.
Drill Sergeant: "What's your second general order?"
Private: "Hell if I know, we don't get issued soldier's basic manuals, so I couldn't spend any time memorizing those."

But its canon. Whether it makes sense or not, we have to assume that there have been other training techniques to learn these things. Video or audio discs, pictograms, etc.

[Natasha]

You can train and indoctrinate a grunt without giving him books to read.

[Rimmer]

The CS illiteracy makes no sense, especially for soldiers.
Drill Sergeant: "What's your second general order?"
Private: "Hell if I know, we don't get issued soldier's basic manuals, so I couldn't spend any time memorizing those."

But its canon. Whether it makes sense or not, we have to assume that there have been other training techniques to learn these things. Video or audio discs, pictograms, etc.

Yeah. Brainwashing, etc...

This is one of those times when dogmatically sticking to canon makes little sense. You either "just go with it" or you don't.

I Don't. the whole illiterate thing never washed with me so I ignore it. It being canon or not makes no difference, a stupid concept is still stupid.

[Library Ogre]

You can train and indoctrinate a grunt without giving him books to read.

TV. Played all the time. When they're in mess. When they're sleeping. When they're running. Always whispering the words of Emperor Prosek to them.

"Hello again, sweet Coalition this is your emperor, Karl Prosek. And now one of my inspirational quotes, from the mouth of your emperor, Karl Prosek, straight to your heart. Together with the Coalition, you and I will rebuild this world that way it should be. The values of our past will be the foundation of our future."

[csbioborg]

You can train and indoctrinate a grunt without giving him books to read.

TV. Played all the time. When they're in mess. When they're sleeping. When they're running. Always whispering the words of Emperor Prosek to them.

"Hello again, sweet Coalition this is your emperor, Karl Prosek. And now one of my inspirational quotes, from the mouth of your emperor, Karl Prosek, straight to your heart. Together with the Coalition, you and I will rebuild this world that way it should be. The values of our past will be the foundation of our future."

phililophsy ya but not training or else modern militaries would do it

[Library Ogre]

Modern Militaries have qualms about brain-washing that the Coalition does not.

[rat_bastard]

Modern Militaries have qualms about brain-washing that the Coalition does not.

Don't you get it? The only yardstick the CS can be measured by is the united states military! Any reminder that the CS could give a tinker's fig about the rights or freedoms or quality of life shall be rebuffed!

[Library Ogre]

Modern Militaries have qualms about brain-washing that the Coalition does not.

Don't you get it? The only yardstick the CS can be measured by is the united states military! Any reminder that the CS could give a tinker's fig about the rights or freedoms or quality of life shall be rebuffed!

What rights? They have the privilege of serving in the Coalition armed services. The only rights they need to be concerned with is their good right arm, with which they wield their standard-issue rifle.

[csbioborg]

Modern Militaries have qualms about brain-washing that the Coalition does not.

Don't you get it? The only yardstick the CS can be measured by is the united states military! Any reminder that the CS could give a tinker's fig about the rights or freedoms or quality of life shall be rebuffed!

well it would make sense for a nation like the CS that is besieged on all sides by heretics demons and aliens to use tried and true training metholodgies in a war where they are outmanned and outgunned by supernatural foes whose powers are beyond comphrehension.

Its not a question of rights its a question of effectiveness every military in history has seen that proper training and treatment breeds results. Look at Napolean. He got started prmoting on merit and feeding his troops properly and based on that was able to beat the rest of europe. Look at Genghis khan, Romel, Ceasar, Alexander the Great. All these men won based off proper training of their troops.

Sure if the CS was not besieged by the FoM, Bugs, demons etc they could have the luxury of garrisoning some dytopian military as you present. However that is the case. The CS survives by making e3very rifleman fight his hardest by preparing them for war as best they can.

[rat_bastard]

Modern Militaries have qualms about brain-washing that the Coalition does not.

Don't you get it? The only yardstick the CS can be measured by is the united states military! Any reminder that the CS could give a tinker's fig about the rights or freedoms or quality of life shall be rebuffed!

well it would make sense for a nation like the CS that is besieged on all sides by heretics demons and aliens to use tried and true training metholodgies in a war where they are outmanned and outgunned by supernatural foes whose powers are beyond comphrehension.

Why? Not a single one of those nations survived the coming of the rifts, every single one crumbled ages ago.

Its not a question of rights its a question of effectiveness every military in history has seen that proper training and treatment breeds results. Look at Napolean. He got started prmoting on merit and feeding his troops properly and based on that was able to beat the rest of europe. Look at Genghis khan, Romel, Ceasar, Alexander the Great. All these men won based off proper training of their troops.

so the fact that the CS has defacto the best equipment and has never gone to war with a power they do not outnumber ten to one has nothing to do with it?

Sure if the CS was not besieged by the FoM, Bugs, demons etc they could have the luxury of garrisoning some dytopian military as you present. However that is the case. The CS survives by making e3very rifleman fight his hardest by preparing them for war as best they can.

Its a Dystopian nation as presented, you are the one trying to whitewash fascism and genocide.