Using Magic Effectively: Tolkeen vs CS

[cornholioprime]

The discussion of the triangular defense system or swallowing Rift is irrelevant. The Mirvs do not have to be aimed at the city to completely annihilate it. The missile can strike north, south, east, or west, of the city and envelope all three cities of tolkeen in its blast radius. Only one missile would be needed. Tolkeen is dust if they launch a nuclear attack. Period. This is why Tolkeen never did it.

So a mirv would get past the defenses just because it's not aimed at them?
What kind of reasoning is that?
Sorry, but Tolkeen didnt' try to nuke them because they were written as being idiots.
Note:And The LLTDS would indeed protect them from a Mirv that wasn't aimed at the cities.

Brother Nightshade ALSO forgot that somne of the Nukes DID hit some of the Cities....but gave the CS far less bang for their buck than was expected. ALL of the cities that were hit by Nukes in the opening salvos had been enchanted beforehand with the "Metropolis" Spell of Legend, and were Super-massive MDC Structures...which easily took the force of the blasts...and promptly regenerated!!!!!

[Sir_Spirit]

Well, Tolkeen was an almost Democracy, and very divided in the begining of the conflict. they were also under pressure from everyone to not fight, including Erin Tarn, I'm sure she slowed things down being the Megaversel Mom. Once towns were being decimated and farms burt, THEN tolkeen got up and fought.
This much smaller kingdom was on the defensive from a huge world power. Now, I like how some of the pro-Tolkeens are thinking with spells and tricks, but with fewer troops, and more importantly, fewer leaders, is tolkeen going to fight back, or defend. They can't do both. They just don't have limitless resourses. tens of thousands of troops was a big deal for them. Hundereds of thousands is what the CS had. Imagine what it takes to hold back 400,000 CS skelabots. Now back that up with twice as many troops many in power armour. Also remember the CS had Air supiriority. Not because they had better equipment. They had cheaper equipment and more soldiers. 1.5 mill for a Sam? against most TW air craft at 20 mill?? That is huge!
The CS has the same advantage that the Spluglorth have. they can grind away with shot after shot of MD from thousands of guns. The sustained bombings, better tactics, more ammo, more men. Tolkeen ran out of funds and food. magic was used for everything, including taking care of bodies, transportation, medics, everything. They have a magic pie that had to be divided between war and country. It would have been a nightmare for them. Can they risk sending a dozen loyal and skilled warlocks away for up to a year so they could sneak into the CS controled areas and attack with elementals? No. Who would they trust to lead the inexperienced warlocks defending the kingdom? same thing with dragons, TW mechenics, everything.

This sounds like the official reasoning that was used to explain why tolkeen lost.(ignoring the Poof! stuff they did).
But it has holes in it.
The books specifically state that skelebots didn't do the damage that they were infilicting.
And you wouldn't need to take "a year " to get to the CS.
BtW:from another thread:
The CS military giant isn't sustainable

But anyway, I totally agree with DarkBrandons assessment of Terrorism, with the CS's massive propaganda machine it would be no trouble to use it to drum up support.( And considering he's just another puppet of the CS regime I think he knows what they want him to. )

Here's a couple of idea's that I'm surprised to see have not been mentioned.

1)Combine a null aura with an Ancient Dragons Time Hole.
Have say, an ancient Great Horned Dragon, who has a grudge against the CS, theirs one mentioned in the books but he jsut goes around being stupid so I won't mention him again.
Have the dragon have a major or minor artifact, or have a rune weapon, that gives him a null aura. The dragon has had this for, say, a few centuries. Now he takes his Time Hole(the ability to create their own pocket dimension of sorts, had by all anceant dragons), and fills it with psychic and normal humans who hate the CS. Plus a few auto-Gees and master shapeshifters liek Rakshasa etcetera...). Now the CS psychics can't foresee him coming and he can get a fake Id or slip in as someone who is already a CS citizen.

2) Have Tolkeen or FOM create a vanguard liek orginisation but it only employs regular humans and psychics. Theyare fanatical CS hates and use fake memories and paranioa and so forth to ge tinto CS and make suicidal attacks against humans making them think the CS is behind it.

Both plans have their foibles but I think they both oculd work with a little tweaking...

[Xenogears]

Bump!

[Lenwen]

First of all I agree that Tolkeen was handled like an idiot was in command.

Now it has been hinted that Chi town has defenses that prevent teleportation in to the city.
The Federation of Magic did it during their big conflict with the CS and it makes sense the CS would have developed a defense against it.

Perhaps some kind of electrical field effect like a force field in the walls that prevents teleportation.

1) - Yes , Yes the Tolkeen leaders dispite having I.Q.'s ranging from 19 - 27 were portrayed as complete idiots .(go figure)

2) - Where in any books at all does this "Hint" come from that the CS has anti-teleport capabilities ? And since when does Electricity effect teleportation ? (Outside of the movie :Jumpers)

[cornholioprime]

Nevermind that Tolkeen lost and the CS won. I'm not even gonna get into that. I'm just curious about the tactics you would use to attack/disrupt the CS if were you in charge of Tolkeen.

I'm looking for stuff like attacks designed to hinder/cripple the CS infrastructure or cause massive morale problems within the military and civilian structure. Basically, if you were a magic using terrorist, how would you stick it to the CS, destroying as much property and taking as many lives as possible with the fewest casualties.

One thing that they (as well as the Federation of Magic) SHOULD have done, was to use the Ley Lines near their respective locations to stockpile a MASSIVE inventory of super-spells over time like "Annhilate" and used those, and others.

Oh, wait, I can't think of that; I'm a Magic-User on Rifts Earth, and Kevin wrote me to be too stupid!!

[cornholioprime]

Well...
I'd use adult to ancient dragons {three}to teleport into Chi-Town, destroy as much as they could in say 15 minutes on the high levels {it would probably take at LEAST that long for sufficient forces to mobilize to deal with them}, and have one of them drop off an iron golem and a dozen mummies/ zombies in some form of BA and vibro-swords with the words, "Slay all that ye see."
Repeat on the lower levels, then the middle levels. Then the dragons would teleport out. They would cause so much property and civilian damage the Coalition would have to pull alot of troops back just to deal with the destruction... not to mention the serious blow to morale. Might even take out a Prosek or two... it would also panic the Coalition civilians.

more likely, they'd be fried. screw orginaising a resitance. every CS soldgier there would be empting his clip, even if they DO freze in terror for about 3 seconds. dragons can only take so much, and't don't heal THAT fast. you'd be fried or teleporting the hell OUT of chi-town in under 5 minutes. when something like that happenes, it's not so much "organise an attack" as "SHOOT THE ****** NOW"

Fine by me.

That's why there are spells such as "House of Glass," "Deflection," and "Targeted Deflection."

Cast spells on Dragon-self, 'port in, cause MASS damage in my own right whilst the CS troopers literally blast themselves to bits (One of those spells cause reciprocal damage DIRECTLY back to whatever part of the Spell-caster's body is being hit, and I think thorugh armor), 'port back out, rest for about 10 minutes, rinse and repeat.

All this while other waves of Dragons are doing something similar.

By the way.....just how many SAMAS units are inside Chi-Town proper; can there really be all that many?? I ask because my Dragons would rain down Death From Above.

[Balabanto]

I love the Annihilate stockpile.

But I love one use "I die, and death curse goes off on my killers." TW items. PPE cost=0. PPE Construction time=0. Requisite Gems...one. These are dirt cheap.

And the more people the CS kills, the more of them turn into drooling vegetables. Your average CS soldier will be able to kill at most five people before his ME=0. And once his ME=0, he is easily dominated, turned against his fellow soldiers, and destroyed.

The problem with magic is that most of the great tactics are evil. Hire a Necromancer to learn death curse and brainwash him to believe that Karl Prosek wants to kill him. Then make sure he's awake when you, disguised as Karl Prosek, butcher him slowly while he's tied to his bed. Karl Prosek gets a death curse. Lather, rinse, repeat. The leader of the CS is now a drooling vegetable.His new ME after multiple Death Curses is a 0. Whoever they place in charge after that. Lather, rinse repeat. As funny as it is to imagine the CS leadership in a mental ward wearing diapers, there's no reason why Corrin Scard and the others wouldn't encourage this tactic.

[dark brandon]

The wheels on the bus go round and round...
round and round...
round and round...
The wheels on the bus go round and round...
I go...where I stop, nobody knows....

[Avatara]

also as for teleporting into chi town. Teleporting some where you have never been is likely to fail. Teleporting some where that you have never been and has many a wall and room can make for rather interesting wall art. As for the earth elemental against farm land good idea. Making tunals under chi town. Not quite that simple. First there are ways to detect that with tech also they tend to have people, and dog boys, psy users gaurding there underground head quarters. The comand centre of chi town is located under the lowest levels of the city its self Also where Prozac actualy lives. So that would be rather well protected. (they mention the underground head quarters in either the CW or in one of the burb books i think)

[Samored II]

also as for teleporting into chi town. Teleporting some where you have never been is likely to fail. Teleporting some where that you have never been and has many a wall and room can make for rather interesting wall art. As for the earth elemental against farm land good idea. Making tunals under chi town. Not quite that simple. First there are ways to detect that with tech also they tend to have people, and dog boys, psy users gaurding there underground head quarters. The comand centre of chi town is located under the lowest levels of the city its self Also where Prozac actualy lives. So that would be rather well protected. (they mention the underground head quarters in either the CW or in one of the burb books i think)

You can teleport somewhere you have a photo of, especially if your minion also describes the place.
Tourists still take cameras I'd imagine.

I doubt CS internal security is very sanguine about tourists wandering around taking pictures. It's for damn sure there's not tours of high security areas.

[Talavar]

Too many people forget that the CS's main advantage is thier logistics and resources, and people forget that while KS may have "dumbed" down mages, don't get me started on some of the blunders he wrote for the CS..................whom have spent decades fighting magic, yet still are "dumbfounded" by some of the things Tolkeenn did............like it was their first rodeo.

KS pen protected and dumbified both sides for roleplaying purposes.

magic force fields that cover an entire city and swallow up CS nukes like nothing......
Poor Yorick giving Tolkeen the time of the first CS attack.......

Magic force fields & workable precognition aren't really examples of dumb leadership on anyone's part, CS or Tolkeen. They were dumb, no question, but those aren't reasons why.

[cornholioprime]

Wow, this is the oldest thread I've seen necroed

I think part of the biggest advantages (home defense) that the CS had was that its major holdings are in (intentionally?) low magic zones with minimal ley lines. Consequently its harder for mages to cut loose with the higher cost PPE spells, and prevents close raids from ley line teleports or rifts.

That's why you have teams of Mages around the clock, stepping next to all available Ley Lines and filling up millions and millions and millions of PPE into Batteries over a long period of time. Once the PPE issue is out of the way, the sky is literally the limit in terms of what a Magic-using nation wants to do.

Yet another way in which Magic Users have been dumbed down in the Rifts Universe so that the Coalition survives.

[Avatara]

That and after the SR 1/3 to half of the forces fighting for tolkeen left.

[Avatara]

That is the one thing i did not like. If a party walks threw xitic turf and happen to have 1 robot or large power armour the hive goes nuts and slaughters them all. Holms walks threw with thousands of armour and loud vehicles and the hive herasses them a bit then leaves them alone.

[dark brandon]

That is the one thing i did not like. If a party walks threw xitic turf and happen to have 1 robot or large power armour the hive goes nuts and slaughters them all. Holms walks threw with thousands of armour and loud vehicles and the hive herasses them a bit then leaves them alone.

Yeah, I know how you feel. Dragons are extreamly territorial, yet you have multiple city of dragons existing on Rifts Earth.

[Talavar]

Try explaining to a demon what a "flank" is, or trying to maintain command of one..........let alone thousands......you're trying to control a being that used to roaming as he may with very little interaction among other beings adn all of a sudden they're tossed into a mixed group of fighters...............it's just like trying to make a lion a house cat.....

Given that the demons of Hades have been at war with the devils of Dyval for quite some time, I don't think explaining the concepts of warfare to either side would be particularly difficult. Some demons would have difficulty with these types of ideas, but a great many would not.

Yeah, I know how you feel. Dragons are extreamly territorial, yet you have multiple city of dragons existing on Rifts Earth.

While dragons may be instinctively territorial, they've also got high IQs & MEs, so should be able to overcome those instincts when its needed or useful. RUE says that some dragons may be able to strike up friendships with other dragons, particularly if another species, and that when living in close-proximity they become highly competitive until a hierarchy is established.

[dark brandon]

While dragons may be instinctively territorial, they've also got high IQs & MEs, so should be able to overcome those instincts when its needed or useful. RUE says that some dragons may be able to strike up friendships with other dragons, particularly if another species, and that when living in close-proximity they become highly competitive until a hierarchy is established.

Some dragons...we're talking thousands living in a city.

And the idea that a dragon society is useful or needed contradicts what the book says about them. Technically speaking, if this were true, dragons probably would be a very social group, after all they are some of the most powerful beings in the megaverse so it would be useful for them to stay close together to always be a dominant species, but it is written that because of how powerful they are, they don't form societies.

But it's cool, because they are dragons. And dragons, being exactly like humans, can put aside their differences and overcome instinct to live together in peace and harmony.

[Talavar]

While dragons may be instinctively territorial, they've also got high IQs & MEs, so should be able to overcome those instincts when its needed or useful. RUE says that some dragons may be able to strike up friendships with other dragons, particularly if another species, and that when living in close-proximity they become highly competitive until a hierarchy is established.

Some dragons...we're talking thousands living in a city.

And the idea that a dragon society is useful or needed contradicts what the book says about them. Technically speaking, if this were true, dragons probably would be a very social group, after all they are some of the most powerful beings in the megaverse so it would be useful for them to stay close together to always be a dominant species, but it is written that because of how powerful they are, they don't form societies.

But it's cool, because they are dragons. And dragons, being exactly like humans, can put aside their differences and overcome instinct to live together in peace and harmony.

Well, a city of just dragons is dumb, but a city like Dragcona or the other Atlantis cities, presumably Lazlo, and a few other places, that have a "lot" of dragons in them (a few hundred to a few thousand) but are still mostly populated by other species is workable. It's useful for dragons to come there because of the potential interactions with all the non-dragons in the city; that's important enough for them that they can choke down the presence of other dragons nearby.

The only city that was mostly dragons was Freehold, I believe, and yeah, it was kinda dumb.

[Shadyslug]

It just always amuses me when we have the same discussions...over...and over...and over...again.

But hey...it just shows that SoT wasn't a bad as people think...because if it was, we wouldn't still be talking about it...

[dark brandon]

Well, a city of just dragons is dumb, but a city like Dragcona or the other Atlantis cities, presumably Lazlo, and a few other places, that have a "lot" of dragons in them (a few hundred to a few thousand) but are still mostly populated by other species is workable. It's useful for dragons to come there because of the potential interactions with all the non-dragons in the city; that's important enough for them that they can choke down the presence of other dragons nearby.

The only city that was mostly dragons was Freehold, I believe, and yeah, it was kinda dumb.

About the only argument I see holding water is that if the dragons who inhabit the city don't consider it their territory/home. This actually makes sense for the flight of dragons...after all, what do they care what happens to the city they merely visit. It's sad and all, but life goes on.

[Samored II]

Wow, this is the oldest thread I've seen necroed

I think part of the biggest advantages (home defense) that the CS had was that its major holdings are in (intentionally?) low magic zones with minimal ley lines. Consequently its harder for mages to cut loose with the higher cost PPE spells, and prevents close raids from ley line teleports or rifts.

That's why you have teams of Mages around the clock, stepping next to all available Ley Lines and filling up millions and millions and millions of PPE into Batteries over a long period of time. Once the PPE issue is out of the way, the sky is literally the limit in terms of what a Magic-using nation wants to do.

Yet another way in which Magic Users have been dumbed down in the Rifts Universe so that the Coalition survives.

What are the size of these PPE batteries you mention? How are they built? What is their charge density?

[Samored II]

Try explaining to a demon what a "flank" is, or trying to maintain command of one..........let alone thousands......you're trying to control a being that used to roaming as he may with very little interaction among other beings adn all of a sudden they're tossed into a mixed group of fighters...............it's just like trying to make a lion a house cat.....

Given that the demons of Hades have been at war with the devils of Dyval for quite some time, I don't think explaining the concepts of warfare to either side would be particularly difficult. Some demons would have difficulty with these types of ideas, but a great many would not.

They have been engaging in mechanized warfare? Using combined arms strategies? The concept of warfare might be easy enough but the importance of coordination, teamwork, logistics, resource denial, and C3I? Not so much.

[Talavar]

Try explaining to a demon what a "flank" is, or trying to maintain command of one..........let alone thousands......you're trying to control a being that used to roaming as he may with very little interaction among other beings adn all of a sudden they're tossed into a mixed group of fighters...............it's just like trying to make a lion a house cat.....

Given that the demons of Hades have been at war with the devils of Dyval for quite some time, I don't think explaining the concepts of warfare to either side would be particularly difficult. Some demons would have difficulty with these types of ideas, but a great many would not.

They have been engaging in mechanized warfare? Using combined arms strategies? The concept of warfare might be easy enough but the importance of coordination, teamwork, logistics, resource denial, and C3I? Not so much.

Yes, because not knowing about mechanized warfare means not knowing what a flank is, as the poster I responded to claimed. You're helpful.

But yes, they do use teamwork, combined "arms" strategies (by combining various types of demons with complementary abilities into squads & other units), understand logistics (otherwise I imagine fielding an army of millions across multiple dimensions would be tricky) and even use a form of mechanized warfare (the primitive magic war machines presented in Hades, and presumably Dyval).

[Xenogears]

Talisman 500ppe pg189 main book

[Samored II]

Talisman 500ppe pg189 main book

Ah the old main book Haven't looked through the magic section of that in awhile. Odd that the Unlimited one didn't just port the description over.

Though, I'm not sure how effective this would be. As a PPE battery its got something of a limited effect. 500 PPE to charge it to 50, 60 to recharge it to 30 from then on. And only the mage who created it can recharge it.

That doesn't seem like an effective use of a mage that can cast 13th level spells, or is there a way to take advantage of this that I'm not seeing?

At the very least, the teams of mages/millions of PPE storage strategy is starting to look REALLY unlikely.

[Xenogears]

But you all still forget that TW can get the job done.

[Samored II]

But you all still forget that TW can get the job done.

Same question. How does one make a TW PPE battery, what does it cost, and what's the charge density?

[Talavar]

An emerald can be used to make a PPE battery with up to 10 PPE/carat, and a diamond can be used to make one storing up to 20 PPE/carat (RUE, pg. 131-132). No upper limit of PPE is given, provided you have enough gems, but each point of PPE that can be stored in a TW device gives a -1% skill penalty, so vast amounts of PPE become exceedingly hard to manage. The techno-wizard also needs either the energy sphere or talisman spell to base his battery off of.

[cornholioprime]

Talisman 500ppe pg189 main book

Ah the old main book Haven't looked through the magic section of that in awhile. Odd that the Unlimited one didn't just port the description over.

Though, I'm not sure how effective this would be. As a PPE battery its got something of a limited effect. 500 PPE to charge it to 50, 60 to recharge it to 30 from then on. And only the mage who created it can recharge it.

That doesn't seem like an effective use of a mage that can cast 13th level spells, or is there a way to take advantage of this that I'm not seeing?

At the very least, the teams of mages/millions of PPE storage strategy is starting to look REALLY unlikely.

Why??

There is no apparent upper limit to what Mages can siphon off of a Ley Line, then dump said PPE into said Talisman.

Lather, rinse, repeat

P.S. They can also just build Magic Pyramids as necessary; those structures can also store massive amounts of PPE in their own right -and there doesn't appear to be any limit as to how many can be built along the same Ley Line, either (unless I'm forgetting limitations from Rifts: Atlantis or something).

[dark brandon]

P.S. They can also just build Magic Pyramids as necessary; those structures can also store massive amounts of PPE in their own right -and there doesn't appear to be any limit as to how many can be built along the same Ley Line, either (unless I'm forgetting limitations from Rifts: Atlantis or something).

I believe its something like 1 pyrimid on a nexus or ley line controls the whole ley line, nexus which makes it difficult (or impossible, I forget) for anyone to syphone PPE off that ley line, which means filling the other pyramids on the ley line may be difficult. As such, having more than 1 on a ley line/nexus I think would either be redundant or used for a "just in case this one fails" senario.

[Samored II]

Talisman 500ppe pg189 main book

Ah the old main book Haven't looked through the magic section of that in awhile. Odd that the Unlimited one didn't just port the description over.

Though, I'm not sure how effective this would be. As a PPE battery its got something of a limited effect. 500 PPE to charge it to 50, 60 to recharge it to 30 from then on. And only the mage who created it can recharge it.

That doesn't seem like an effective use of a mage that can cast 13th level spells, or is there a way to take advantage of this that I'm not seeing?

At the very least, the teams of mages/millions of PPE storage strategy is starting to look REALLY unlikely.

Why??

There is no apparent upper limit to what Mages can siphon off of a Ley Line, then dump said PPE into said Talisman.

Lather, rinse, repeat

Of limited utility since the charge density is so low and the restrictions on recharging.

P.S. They can also just build Magic Pyramids as necessary; those structures can also store massive amounts of PPE in their own right -and there doesn't appear to be any limit as to how many can be built along the same Ley Line, either (unless I'm forgetting limitations from Rifts: Atlantis or something).

IIRC it's one per nexus and every 5 miles on a ley line. This is assuming the magical society in question has the requisite small army of stone masters they'd need to build all those pyramids.

[cornholioprime]

Talisman 500ppe pg189 main book

Ah the old main book Haven't looked through the magic section of that in awhile. Odd that the Unlimited one didn't just port the description over.

Though, I'm not sure how effective this would be. As a PPE battery its got something of a limited effect. 500 PPE to charge it to 50, 60 to recharge it to 30 from then on. And only the mage who created it can recharge it.

That doesn't seem like an effective use of a mage that can cast 13th level spells, or is there a way to take advantage of this that I'm not seeing?

At the very least, the teams of mages/millions of PPE storage strategy is starting to look REALLY unlikely.

Why??

There is no apparent upper limit to what Mages can siphon off of a Ley Line, then dump said PPE into said Talisman.

Lather, rinse, repeat

Of limited utility since the charge density is so low and the restrictions on recharging.

Please explain what you're getting at; since we're talking about an effectively unlimited Magic Source, why are those two issues that you brought up supposed to be a roadblock??

P.S. They can also just build Magic Pyramids as necessary; those structures can also store massive amounts of PPE in their own right -and there doesn't appear to be any limit as to how many can be built along the same Ley Line, either (unless I'm forgetting limitations from Rifts: Atlantis or something).

IIRC it's one per nexus and every 5 miles on a ley line. This is assuming the magical society in question has the requisite small army of stone masters they'd need to build all those pyramids.

On a scale of time -and in this case we're talking about more than a century from Tolkeen's rise to its downfall -this issue is also irrelevant as Tolkeen could hire them at will and over a very long period of time, if need be.

[cornholioprime]

On a scale of time -and in this case we're talking about more than a century from Tolkeen's rise to its downfall -this issue is also irrelevant as Tolkeen could hire them at will and over a very long period of time, if need be.

on that same scale of time the CS could put every Psi-Stalker and minor pychics through Psi-Nullifier training and make thousands of them since they have like a 75% success rate, and also have psi-implants that could instill nega psychic powers in non-psychics, or just install them in all dog boys so now they can smell the mage and counter him............have cyber docs installing these around the clock since CS knew they would go to war with Tolkeen years beforehand.....

So every platoon or squad would have one or two of these nullifiers or nega phychiccs so those super heavy hitting spells that emcompass a big area would usually be negated b/c on of the nullifiers or nega psychics powers would kick in and the ambush is blown.

hindsight is always 20/20 on what should have been done, but not all is easier said than done.....

And yet, this is PRECISELY what this particular Thread is about -the OP asking us to be Monday Morning Quarterbacks -at least from Tolkeen's point of view.

[Talavar]

On a scale of time -and in this case we're talking about more than a century from Tolkeen's rise to its downfall -this issue is also irrelevant as Tolkeen could hire them at will and over a very long period of time, if need be.

on that same scale of time the CS could put every Psi-Stalker and minor pychics through Psi-Nullifier training and make thousands of them since they have like a 75% success rate, and also have psi-implants that could instill nega psychic powers in non-psychics, or just install them in all dog boys so now they can smell the mage and counter him............have cyber docs installing these around the clock since CS knew they would go to war with Tolkeen years beforehand.....

So every platoon or squad would have one or two of these nullifiers or nega phychiccs so those super heavy hitting spells that emcompass a big area would usually be negated b/c on of the nullifiers or nega psychics powers would kick in and the ambush is blown.

hindsight is always 20/20 on what should have been done, but not all is easier said than done.....

But the CS has only had that level of psionic research for a relatively short time, compared to stone magic & spells having existed for millennia, so the comparison doesn't really work.

[cornholioprime]

I'm not sure how different it is in ultimate version, since I'm too lazy to look at it right now, but going off of the original version (since talisman is in it), the original rifts books goes:

On a ley line: mage can draw extra 10 PPE per level of xp every 12 hours, and increases his own ppe recovery to 10 ppe per half hour.

What kinda mage (and how many?) are we using for our talisman example? Level of mage becomes important in terms of base PPE available. Level of spell (13) isn't really a limitation (theoretically) as certain mage types can learn it at any level, the big consideration becomes "Do I have the PPE to cast this spell?"

Lets use a level 10 Ley Line Walker for starters: Lets give him max PPE possible: Permanent base: 100+PE, plus 18 per additional level, or 9*18 in this case: 162, so 262 plus PE, lets be nice and say its 18. 280 PPE for this level 10 Ley Line walker. This walker can pull an extra 120 PPE from sitting on a ley line, bringing him up to 400 PPE per 12 hours or so. Individually, this level 10 Walker cannot cast the first part of Talisman, if its base is 500 PPE, meaning it'll have to be a ritual with more than 1 caster. I figure in this case we'd use the level 10 dude as 'point man' for the casting, and he'd still need at least a couple (a few?) more casters, even if lowbies with high base PPE, to assist him. If I'm reading the description right, they'd need 550 PPE, 500 to 'get it started' and 50 to charge it with its first 50, (or does spending 500 get you 50 PPE auto-stored?)

This still seems kinda a slow way to do it, being on a nexus point is better, our level 10 dude could pull down 300 extra PPE every 6 hours, letting him solo a talisman spell every 6 hours. 50 PPE stored in a talisman once per 6 hours (at nexus) . At 50 PPE a pop, you'd get a billion PPE stored after making 20 million talismans. I'm not sure if my math is right, but our solo level 10 at a nexus could make 20 million talismans in 120 million hours or 13689 years?

My math wasn't as detailed as yours, but yeah, even with spur-of-the-moment Guesstimation off the top of my head, I was coming up with CRAZY amounts of PPE Collection from a team of Mages after a relatively short period of time....

[Talavar]

On a scale of time -and in this case we're talking about more than a century from Tolkeen's rise to its downfall -this issue is also irrelevant as Tolkeen could hire them at will and over a very long period of time, if need be.

on that same scale of time the CS could put every Psi-Stalker and minor pychics through Psi-Nullifier training and make thousands of them since they have like a 75% success rate, and also have psi-implants that could instill nega psychic powers in non-psychics, or just install them in all dog boys so now they can smell the mage and counter him............have cyber docs installing these around the clock since CS knew they would go to war with Tolkeen years beforehand.....

So every platoon or squad would have one or two of these nullifiers or nega phychiccs so those super heavy hitting spells that emcompass a big area would usually be negated b/c on of the nullifiers or nega psychics powers would kick in and the ambush is blown.

hindsight is always 20/20 on what should have been done, but not all is easier said than done.....

But the CS has only had that level of psionic research for a relatively short time, compared to stone magic & spells having existed for millennia, so the comparison doesn't really work.

Psi-Batallion has beena round since 85 PA and the implants since 103 PA just for reference, so I don't know how long Tolkeen was preparing for war before then.

The argument (as I see it) is that Tolkeen, or any magic-based power, should be stocking up on PPE batteries & using pyramids continually, against the threat of any unspecified future dangers. When a finite amount of resource X is what you desperately need to fight or defend yourself (in Tolkeen's case PPE), stockpiling resource X is something you should start immediately, not when the enemy is coming to get you. Tolkeen should have been stocking up on PPE reserves against all possible future threats or dangers from the day after the place was founded; not just to counter the CS once war looked likely, but in preparedness for any emergency.

A comparative issue for the CS would be not bothering to invest in enough ammunition and spare parts & power supplies to restock, re-equip & repair their military.

[cornholioprime]

Sorry I must be misunderstanding, is it the belief that the Tolks could put together PPE battery stockpiles quickly? or slowly? cause I was thinking slowly. How many mages did Tolk have that could sit around making PPE batteries (also worth noting is that each battery could only be recharged by the primary caster of the 1st battery, which means if that mage ever dies, part of your stockpile has now become non-renewable)

Either way, whether we are talking about "quick" or "slow," we are still talking about the kingdom having decades to stockpile the stuff.

Even the occasional Mage dying here and there (as mortals tend to do) and effectively making their own Talismans un-rechargeable, shouldn't have put a serious crimp in their PPE Collection efforts.

[Phadeout]

One thing that needs to be mentioned in any "Siege of Tolkeen" thread, is that if it had been a Siege on Chi-Town, you can bet your @$$ that there are TONS of things that Chi-Town has for defenses that were never detailed. I know, this isn't about Chi-Town, but it always comes up. Look at what Tolkeen had, so that the CS couldn't be "cheap" and just bomb them. All the crazy shields, portals, weapons, devices, geeze. That was done so that the CS couldn't be "cheap".

Now, take that and think about Chi-Town. All the things you can think of, to keep Tolkeen from being "cheap", the CS would have it. Period. That's how it would go, and you know it.

If it was me, and I got to redesign Rifts (gawd that would be fun), I'd have Chi-Town build on one of the only "Dead Magic" zones in North America - that's why they are the bastion of Humanity. Say, a "dead Nexus point" or something.

Baring the Dead Magic zone, I'd have the walls of Chi-Town seriously interfere with Psionic/Magic Probes, Teleporting, etc. These defenses could have even been put in by the Mages that the CS used to be friends with, after the defenses were in place, that would be the time that the CS told them to hit the road.

I could go on and on and on (and so could others) about what Chi-Town would have, but lets just say that they are NOT stupid, and they DO have a crazy amount of defenses, just as Tolkeen had WAY more (too much...) than you'd have thought.

[dark brandon]

Even the occasional Mage dying here and there (as mortals tend to do) and effectively making their own Talismans un-rechargeable, shouldn't have put a serious crimp in their PPE Collection efforts.

Maybe they did. One thing to concider is how much those iron juggernauts cost to make. Where as the pyramids could regenerate PPE 5D6x100 PPE every 6 hours.

There's a good chance, in order to produce the number of juggernauts they had (in a short time?) they had to tap those PPE reserves.

[cornholioprime]

Even the occasional Mage dying here and there (as mortals tend to do) and effectively making their own Talismans un-rechargeable, shouldn't have put a serious crimp in their PPE Collection efforts.

Maybe they did. One thing to concider is how much those iron juggernauts cost to make. Where as the pyramids could regenerate PPE 5D6x100 PPE every 6 hours.

There's a good chance, in order to produce the number of juggernauts they had (in a short time?) they had to tap those PPE reserves.

Agreed....but I'm not talking about the PPE Reserves that they may or may not have had by the time the Coalition Invasion came around, I'm talking about the fact that over the course of decades they should have had millions if not hundreds of millions if not billions of PPE to "play" with.

By the by, that brings up ANOTHER thought: do you realize how LUCKY the CS is that Palladium-style Diabolism is almost unheard of on Rifts Earth?? I have a few books from the PFRPG Modules and in case you haven't seen them, some of those Runes and Wards are a downright NIGHTMARE if you aren't a magic user (or at least Nega-Psychic) or something.....

[dark brandon]

Even the occasional Mage dying here and there (as mortals tend to do) and effectively making their own Talismans un-rechargeable, shouldn't have put a serious crimp in their PPE Collection efforts.

Maybe they did. One thing to concider is how much those iron juggernauts cost to make. Where as the pyramids could regenerate PPE 5D6x100 PPE every 6 hours.

There's a good chance, in order to produce the number of juggernauts they had (in a short time?) they had to tap those PPE reserves.

Agreed....but I'm not talking about the PPE Reserves that they may or may not have had by the time the Coalition Invasion came around, I'm talking about the fact that over the course of decades they should have had millions if not hundreds of millions if not billions of PPE to "play" with.

By the by, that brings up ANOTHER thought: do you realize how LUCKY the CS is that Palladium-style Diabolism is almost unheard of on Rifts Earth?? I have a few books from the PFRPG Modules and in case you haven't seen them, some of those Runes and Wards are a downright NIGHTMARE if you aren't a magic user (or at least Nega-Psychic) or something.....

Oh, yeah. Diabolism/circle magic is powerful. I have no doubt that if they did exist on rifts earth and were somewhat plentiful, CS would have to change their stance on magic in some forms.

As for the reserves, I was also refering to their stores. I'm not sure how much one of those juggernauts would cost in PPE, though, if each one costs say a million total PPE it could deplete them quite quickly, even after years of collecting.

[Talavar]

Those Iron Juggernauts are pretty pointless, in my opinion. Big enough to be targeted by tech. forces at long range, yet slow enough (most of them) that they can't close the distance quickly, and are hugely resource-intensive to make.

[cornholioprime]

Those Iron Juggernauts are pretty pointless, in my opinion. Big enough to be targeted by tech. forces at long range, yet slow enough (most of them) that they can't close the distance quickly, and are hugely resource-intensive to make.

Yeah.....they looked impressive, but once I read their write-ups, I groaned once again.

What is it about Coalition Technology that causes Magic-Using Nations to NOT develop militarily effective counter-measures? Maybe the Coalition's greatest weapon is really top secret Stupid Radiation that makes Mages subconsciously do stupid things that in turn makes them easier to conquer....

[Samored II]

Please explain what you're getting at; since we're talking about an effectively unlimited Magic Source, why are those two issues that you brought up supposed to be a roadblock??

Someone above was kind enough to do the math. 120 million man hours and 20 million trinkets for 1 billion PPE. Even if the time cost didn't rule out that particular approach, the mages would need supernatural strength just to carry the crapload of Talismans they'd need to perform any type of high cost spell.

IIRC it's one per nexus and every 5 miles on a ley line. This is assuming the magical society in question has the requisite small army of stone masters they'd need to build all those pyramids.

On a scale of time -and in this case we're talking about more than a century from Tolkeen's rise to its downfall -this issue is also irrelevant as Tolkeen could hire them at will and over a very long period of time, if need be.[/quote]

Based on its description, Tolkeen had less than 200 Stone Masters over its entire history and a policy of allowing mages to freely access its Ley Lines/Nexus points for "city business"; pyramids cut this supply off. So they could have had pyramids OR talismans; not both.

[dark brandon]

Those Iron Juggernauts are pretty pointless, in my opinion. Big enough to be targeted by tech. forces at long range, yet slow enough (most of them) that they can't close the distance quickly, and are hugely resource-intensive to make.

Yeah.....they looked impressive, but once I read their write-ups, I groaned once again.

What is it about Coalition Technology that causes Magic-Using Nations to NOT develop militarily effective counter-measures? Maybe the Coalition's greatest weapon is really top secret Stupid Radiation that makes Mages subconsciously do stupid things that in turn makes them easier to conquer....

It could just be a limitation on magic itself. For example, magic was very effective when used like the rift triangle system. Even the iron juggernauts were not all that effective.

Though, from the reading they were, but because CS was just as stupid as the mages. There is no reason any of the flyers should have taken down a Super samas unless the samas had a death wish and engaged in melee or close range combat. Instead (I forget which IJ flyer) was described as having taken down a dozen samas for every one they take down...yet it was slow and had poor range.

[cornholioprime]

Based on its description, Tolkeen had less than 200 Stone Masters over its entire history and a policy of allowing mages to freely access its Ley Lines/Nexus points for "city business"; pyramids cut this supply off. So they could have had pyramids OR talismans; not both.

Even putting forth the observation that there is no reason why Pyramids would necessarily bar the use of Talismans or vice versa (one could be used to charge up the other), even a single Stone Pyramid gives up as little as 800 PPE or as much as 12,000 PPE per 24 hours (see Rifts: Atlantis).

This adds up to a minimum of approximately 292,000 (800 PPE times 365 days) to a maximum of about 4.3 million PPE (12,000 PPE time 365 days) per annum.

[Talavar]

It's interesting to me, just reading the first page of posts, that everyone here would conduct such a dirty and, by the rules of the game, evil methods. All the solutions involving raising the dead, desecrating their bodies, or burning all of the crops, forcing millions into starvation, or sending in monsters to slaughter innocents. Do you think all of these dragons and zombies are just going to run around killing armed and able adults? You don't think little 2-year old Suzie or 5-year old Markie are going to find their selves being nibbled upon by the ghouls? Or how about all of these minor demons you're unleashing...rampaging through the halls of the arcopolis raping babies and feasting on the young? Or yes, the nuclear option, which seems to be oh so popular, what about the health consequences suffered for decades by everyone in Chi-Town - not counting the fallout factor (even if mitigated by the "clean" nuke aspect - many of the fallout materials that cause so much of the problem are kicked up into the atmosphere by the explosion itself from the earth).

All of you who defend Tolkeen are justifying KS's entire point about the leadership descending into evil and depravity to defeat their enemy. The Cyber Knights would abandon you just as readily as they did in the SOT series.

Now...to answer the posted question. I would fight a defensive war of attrition, which I may or may not lose. If magic is as effective as everyone here claims it to be, then we take your same claims and use them. We use the Earth Elementals to set up massive trenches and defenses, we use the Air/Fire/Water Elementals in offensive roles provided they are okay with it. We use the magic users to supplement the defensive positions with shielding making the CS attacks less effective and use psychics and mind altering magic to confuse the CS troops in an attempt to ruin their command and control and coordination. In the end, we either win by wearing the CS down in attritional warfare or we lose, otherwise we sacrifice the very thing that makes us different then them.

Otherwise, all of you who want to nuke, zombie apocalypse, or dragon strike Chi-Town itself, may just as well as put on the death's head caps, the red armbands, and the black trench coats because you are no better than then the Prosek regime.

In the defense of the CS...they are right. This world is ours, magic is corrupting (which all of you who support the death of Chi-Town civilians are proving with every post - thank you), and the only way to freedom is through the Emperor. The revolution for democratic and peaceful humanity can come after the world has been purged of the infection which plagues it (if history teaches us nothing, it's that dictatorial regimes never last in times of peace and prosperity).

Thank you

Wow, you read the first page of an entire thread and judged everyone defending Tolkeen based on that. Well done.

[cornholioprime]

It's interesting to me, just reading the first page of posts, that everyone here would conduct such a dirty and, by the rules of the game, evil methods. All the solutions involving raising the dead, desecrating their bodies, or burning all of the crops, forcing millions into starvation, or sending in monsters to slaughter innocents. Do you think all of these dragons and zombies are just going to run around killing armed and able adults? You don't think little 2-year old Suzie or 5-year old Markie are going to find their selves being nibbled upon by the ghouls? Or how about all of these minor demons you're unleashing...rampaging through the halls of the arcopolis raping babies and feasting on the young? Or yes, the nuclear option, which seems to be oh so popular, what about the health consequences suffered for decades by everyone in Chi-Town - not counting the fallout factor (even if mitigated by the "clean" nuke aspect - many of the fallout materials that cause so much of the problem are kicked up into the atmosphere by the explosion itself from the earth).

All of you who defend Tolkeen are justifying KS's entire point about the leadership descending into evil and depravity to defeat their enemy. The Cyber Knights would abandon you just as readily as they did in the SOT series.

Now...to answer the posted question. I would fight a defensive war of attrition, which I may or may not lose. If magic is as effective as everyone here claims it to be, then we take your same claims and use them. We use the Earth Elementals to set up massive trenches and defenses, we use the Air/Fire/Water Elementals in offensive roles provided they are okay with it. We use the magic users to supplement the defensive positions with shielding making the CS attacks less effective and use psychics and mind altering magic to confuse the CS troops in an attempt to ruin their command and control and coordination. In the end, we either win by wearing the CS down in attritional warfare or we lose, otherwise we sacrifice the very thing that makes us different then them.

Otherwise, all of you who want to nuke, zombie apocalypse, or dragon strike Chi-Town itself, may just as well as put on the death's head caps, the red armbands, and the black trench coats because you are no better than then the Prosek regime.

In the defense of the CS...they are right. This world is ours, magic is corrupting (which all of you who support the death of Chi-Town civilians are proving with every post - thank you), and the only way to freedom is through the Emperor. The revolution for democratic and peaceful humanity can come after the world has been purged of the infection which plagues it (if history teaches us nothing, it's that dictatorial regimes never last in times of peace and prosperity).

Thank you

This isn't Thread about Staying Scrupulous, it's a Thread about how better to defend Tolkeen from the Coalition.

[Colt47]

Sometimes you got to fight an ignorant evil with a even more ignorant evil to win a war. Then, instead of having to deal with Coalition forces at the end of the day, we just have to deal with all the ghouls, Zombies, haunting entities, demons, and god knows what else mages threw into the stew. Sounds like an excellent plan!

So far the smartest attack method I've heard thus far is the idea of attempting to tunnel to the underground wall of Chi towns lower levels and flood it with molten rock. With any luck, if the rock stays hot enough it would indeed melt through the wall and at least take out some military targets. It's hypothetically a fairly good tactical strike on Chi Towns Military. The only hitches I see with the plan is that the tunnel has to be able to support itself, which means constructing support beams to keep it stable. Those support beams aren't going to hold up to molten rock, so once the tunnel is flooded, the only thing that is keeping the tunnels open is the magma flow. Additionally, the tunnel will need to be dug carefully as to not tip off Chi Town Authorities something is up. Seismographs can pick up minor local disturbances caused by excavation and drilling, and Chi-town is one of the most prominent tech centers on North America. Finally, even though the people excavating are underground they are not shielded from being detected by Psi-stalkers and dog boys, who can sense ppe and Isp.

As far as the slash and burning of Coalition crops: it's just a plain bad idea. A lot of NON-Coalition people depend on the Coalition food stocks, and permanent destruction of coalition farm land means making the land not farm able for everyone. Heck, Tolkien itself might even be using some of the coalitions food supplies without realizing it, much how the coalition doesn't realize that they are using wilks components in their weapons and vehicle systems.

Small groups can only do so much on a military scale. The best way to take down Chi Town would be to first take out the manufacturing centers that are supplying it with weapons and vehicles. I'd use some air fortresses and bomb Iron hearts factories to dust, getting Air support from Bandito arms Sidewinder SAMAS and anti air support from Wild Weasels. I'd also use at least six LRMS to take care of any ground support that might try to shoot the planes down. Ideally, I'd have the Flying Fortresses painted with anti Radar black ball paint and use them at night to give them a better shot at getting within range. Not sure if it is possible, but if a techno wizard could give the planes the ability to use INvisibility, superior, that would be good, too. However, before bombing the Manufacturing centers, I'd take out any hangars and SAMAS storage bays first. One of the most bragged about areas the CS has is it's air superiority, thus it is critical to make sure the majority of the SAMAS currently at Iron heart never make it off the ground. You'll still have to deal with what is already airborne and patrolling, and anything the CS would be recalling to defend, but it will be 100x worse if the local defense forces get a chance to act. As for the adventurers role in this attack, I'd have them scout ahead of time to get some data on major sites to strike, coordinates, etc. Ironically, having player characters stir up trouble would be fairly bad.

I'm not totally sure where to use magic users in all of this. This would be a long ranged Siege and bombing type of attack, which is magics primary weakness. I suppose I'd have the magic users defend the LRMS and maybe have a few on the flying fortresses to help power the Superior invisibility.

[Colt47]

I think all of us who want to terrorize the CS should go to Lord Dunscon in the Magic Zone. He probably has already thought up of just about every crazy scheme we've listed here and then some.