NORAD and ARCHIE 2

The Galactus Kid · Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:11 pm

I don't believe it is ever officially mentioned what happened to NORAD.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:11 pm

I'm not sure about that one, but I know there's more than one ARCHIE, but ARCHIE 3 was the only one that became self aware? There's one on the moon or something that's just a really advanced computer program. Archie (( As far as we know)) is one of a kind.

Ravenwing · Unread post by **Ravenwing** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:56 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm not sure about that one, but I know there's more than one ARCHIE, but ARCHIE 3 was the only one that became self aware? There's one on the moon or something that's just a really advanced computer program. Archie (( As far as we know)) is one of a kind.

ARCHIE 4-7 on the moon. they kept crashing because of the radiation on the moon, or some such. The ARCHIEs are all AI's

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:28 am

It states very clearly in aftermath that the one on the moon isn't self aware. That's why Archie 3 can use one of the communication satalites.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:00 am

NORAD is left to the gamer's imagination. :ok:

Ravenwing · Unread post by **Ravenwing** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:44 am

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It states very clearly in aftermath that the one on the moon isn't self aware. That's why Archie 3 can use one of the communication satalites.

Not saying it's all Data like, just that it's a AI. It may not be selfaware, but it can make decisons just like a human can to a degree.

Hotrod · Unread post by **Hotrod** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:31 am

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 4742.shtml

Hate to break it to you all, but NORAD is shutting down. For our Rifts world, it'll mean about as much as the old, abandoned missile silos in the northern continental US.

Mech-Viper Prime · Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:28 am

close it now-reopen it later, but makes me wonder what will happening to the bases around it.

Hotrod · Unread post by **Hotrod** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:13 am

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:close it now-reopen it later, but makes me wonder what will happening to the bases around it.

This is all part of the last round of BRAC (Base Realignment and Closing). A lot of bases are having their resources and people consolidated elsewhere. I haven't read up on the outlying areas, but it stands to reason that if they're shutting down NORAD, they're probably shutting down most everything else in the are. The bases that remain are growing, while a lot of smaller ones are just going to disappear.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:29 pm

Cheyenne Mountain AFS is not affected by BRAC. It's not completely shutting down, it's going into warm standby. This is a cost cutting measure.

The surrounding bases aren't going anywhere. They have distinct missions from Cheyenne Mountain.

And NORAD (the organization) is much larger than Cheyenne Mountain. The organization is not changing either.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:43 pm

Yeah I have a problem thinkint that the US government is just going to kill off Norad too.

Granted they might SAY they're doing it, but come on. Look around the world. The US is hated by most of the rest of the world. We're not going to shoot ourselves THAT much in the foot.

The only way NORAD would compleatly shut down is if we had something bigger and badder in secret ((lol like the lone star complex or something)) to take over it's place.

Ravenwing · Unread post by **Ravenwing** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:55 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yeah I have a problem thinkint that the US government is just going to kill off Norad too.

Granted they might SAY they're doing it, but come on. Look around the world. The US is hated by most of the rest of the world. We're not going to shoot ourselves THAT much in the foot.

The only way NORAD would compleatly shut down is if we had something bigger and badder in secret ((lol like the lone star complex or something)) to take over it's place.

Think of it this way.

They told us about NORAD. So imagine the what they didn't tell us.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:56 pm

That's exactly it. *nods*

Subjugator · Unread post by **Subjugator** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:45 pm

Hotrod wrote:http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/28/104742.shtml

Hate to break it to you all, but NORAD is shutting down. For our Rifts world, it'll mean about as much as the old, abandoned missile silos in the northern continental US.

I have to wonder if it's *really* being closed.

/Sub

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:41 pm

Subjugator wrote:
Hotrod wrote:http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/28/104742.shtml

Hate to break it to you all, but NORAD is shutting down. For our Rifts world, it'll mean about as much as the old, abandoned missile silos in the northern continental US.

I have to wonder if it's *really* being closed.

/Sub

It's not.

Blight · Unread post by **Blight** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:38 pm

EPIC wrote:yup it's being 'closed' in the same manner that groom lake was also 'closed'

A lot of the groom lake projects were moved to the nearby Tonopah Test Range, and finally to Holloman Air Force Base.
But if your interested Here is a great article in area 51.

Ravenwing · Unread post by **Ravenwing** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:48 pm

Remember peeps our Alien overlords don't want us knowing about there base at non-existent area 51.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:36 pm

EPIC wrote:
Mack wrote:
Subjugator wrote:
Hotrod wrote:http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/28/104742.shtml

Hate to break it to you all, but NORAD is shutting down. For our Rifts world, it'll mean about as much as the old, abandoned missile silos in the northern continental US.

I have to wonder if it's *really* being closed.

/Sub

It's not.

yup it's being 'closed' in the same manner that groom lake was also 'closed'

Re-read the article. It's not being closed.

Nightmaster · Unread post by **Nightmaster** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:09 pm

You guys appear to be losing the focus here.

Whatever or not NORAD is being closed TODAY, Why would it not be active during the rising of the new Cold War?

In the decade preceding the Coming of the Rifts a lot of countries and other power blocks were already in a new Cold War era. In such circunstances I dont see why the NORAD complex would not be bring up online again even if the US government closed it today.

I have read the Chaos Earth book and it say that the NEMA forces lost contact with NORAD when the Yeallowstone super volcano erupted. They had no other info if the complex survived or not, but where sure that the surounding military complexes were destroyed by the explosion of the volcano.

My opinion is that the NORAD complex survived. Although the upper levels of the complex were buried or destroyed, the inner sections of the complex survived. The people there were trapped and one by one they died of starvation/chocking. A very few handfull were saved using possible a last resort like Cryo Tubes so that the President, the top personnel of the US government and a resonable number of soldiers could survive. They are still there sleeping and waiting to be rescued.

ARCHIE 2 is still maintaining the systems working using robots like those that NEMA was access to, but otherwise he have very limited construction capacity thanks to a overall lack of resources to work his manufacture plants. He is waiting a renew in contact with the surface to begin the reanimation of the president and the rest of the top personnel of the government that was keep alive in the Cryo Tubes.

The one to find the NORAD complex would be the luckiest man on North America, or the most unlucky if ARCHIE 2 dont consider him a member of the USA.

Just my though on the matter.

Esckey · Unread post by **Esckey** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:04 am

The one on the Moon is Archie 7 and controls 99% of the systems. It is not self aware, though it treats the colony as its "body" and is programed to protect it and its inhabitants.

That said, isn't there a blurb about the Yellowstone Supervolcano leveling the general area? How far away are the two sites?

MASTERMIND · Unread post by **MASTERMIND** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:31 pm

Yeah, definitely need to read the article closely. It does not say they are closing NORAD down. They say they are taking one of the facilities and putting it on warm/standby and moving that part of the operation that was there to another AF base.

I am ex-military so I know what they mean by putting a base on standby. There will still be people there, just downsized significantly. Cheyenne Mountain is such a huge resource I don't see them ever giving up the location.

Did anyone mention the Archie from the Mechanoids book yet? That scenario was left open for individual player groups to decide but they could still be a big parts of the Rifts story. They're either still fighting it out, Archie (and the human with him, can't remember his name) won and the Mechanoids are no longer a threat (which means that Archie is a threat to everyone else now that the Mechanoids have been handled). Or the Mechanoids won and they continue to build their forces and expand their territory.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:08 pm

Actually being dug under a mountain would give it protection. Coupled with the fact that the buildings INSIDE NORAD were actually built with those earth quake spring things or what ever, specificly designed for just such a contengancy.

Chances are NORAD made it though, unless (( Big possibility here)) Rifts opened IN NORAD.... and something ugly came though and is now using it as a home.

Ravenwing · Unread post by **Ravenwing** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:43 pm

The NORAD complex was built with a massive earthquake inmind. The spring thingies as they have been called shouldn't be forgoten. The entire underground complex is built on them, and it functions the same as a shock absorber, only more potent. As the earth moves, the springs are the only part of the complex to touch the bedrock. The result would be that the earth might be moving like crazy but the complex will be still.

Shadyslug · Unread post by **Shadyslug** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:02 pm

I bet NORAD is more like MINDWERKs...at least in concept...maybe not attitude...

Blight · Unread post by **Blight** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:42 pm

To protect the underground headquarters of the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) from shockwaves caused by nuclear explosions, workers (circa 1963) installed the first of more than 1,300 giant metal springs on which buildings were later constructed. Each spring was approximately 4 feet (1.2 meters) long and 20 inches (50.8 centimeters) in diameter, and could withstand a maximum pressure of 65,000 pounds (29,545 kilograms). Um i think that earth quake might not have caused that much dammage.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:24 pm

Al quit being so snarky.

The 'best mind of the day' built that place to withstand a direct strike from a multimegaton nuke.

I think they're smart enough to go "We're digging under a mountain, maybe we need to plan on what might happen if we have an earth quake"

It'd be a shame to spend 400 billion trillion gazillion (( How ever much. I honestly don't know)) dollars on a base to have mother nature take it out the week it's finished with a random earth quake.

It's a moot point really. This is conjecture, but don't go mouthing off to people, as you Al, honestly don't know either man. lol.

The point is they did have the siesmic spring things and accordingly it offers SOME protection. That protection and how much it DID offer is unknown. But remember, the lone star complex was pristine, Yellowstone blowing up didn't destroy it.

So... we know it's POSSIBLE.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:22 pm

Lock Warning.

Address the topic, not the poster. If you can't do that, don't post.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:46 pm

Is there enough people in NORAD at that time to cause that sort of feed back though? NYC was an isolated event due to the outragous ammounts of lives lost in seconds.

99.9% of other cities were also destroied but with no Madhaven effect.

Yes NORAD would have a population of a town inside it working but even if they died suddenly when the rifts broke out, or over the years though attrition, would it cause that psychic imprint?

I don't think so. The population would just be too small. You wouldn't even have 100,000 people in there (( remember the Rifts just HAPPENED it wasn't antisipated or under threat of attack))

And cities like Boston, Houston, Miami, cinncinatti, ect ect ect don't have the Madhaven effect. NYC just had MILLIONS of people all at once die.

I do agree "Something else" might have gotten in there and made it their home. That'd be a sort of an "easy out" though. There were NORAD like bases in the north, that survived. It's where the Tundra rangers came from (( though I think one of theirs ported out of time and back in.))

it's conceiveable that the people in NORAD lived and their communications on the surface were cut offf. By the time they dug out their entrances (( they have earth moving equipment inside)) That it might have taken a year or two, and by then. Whooo.

Hard to say till we get official word.

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:14 pm

I had an adult dragon living in there.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:21 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes NORAD would have a population of a town inside it working but even if they died suddenly when the rifts broke out, or over the years though attrition, would it cause that psychic imprint?

As it stands today, about 300 people work inside the Mountain. It's really all that large inside.

Of course, one could speculate about between today and 2098...

Ravenwing · Unread post by **Ravenwing** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:28 pm

Mack wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes NORAD would have a population of a town inside it working but even if they died suddenly when the rifts broke out, or over the years though attrition, would it cause that psychic imprint?

As it stands today, about 300 people work inside the Mountain. It's really all that large inside.

Of course, one could speculate about between today and 2098...

IIRC nearly a Divison can be placed inside.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:25 am

Alejandro wrote:
There are MANY more cities that have a larger population than NYC and yet they didn't get the Madhaven effect when they were annihilated. Plenty of bases in Rifts survived...far more didn't.

If we're reaching into the big grab-bag of "What If?" then alternate theories are allowed on the table.

Um.. No there's.. just not.

1. Tokyo, Japan - 28,025,000
2. Mexico City, Mexico - 18,131,000
3. Mumbai, India - 18,042,000
4. Sáo Paulo, Brazil - 17, 711,000
5. New York City, USA - 16,626,000

Tokyo rifted out of existance, wasn't taken over.

Mexico city was very likely surpassed by NYC in rifts earth as we have many references to how it was a new center for tech and industry (( Mainly in Madhaven itself)), but Mexico City is now in the vampires hands, with all those vamps around, noone can really get in there to see if it's got a madhaven effect or no.

Mumbal, is in India from wich we have NO information.

Sao Pauo Brazil, I don't know that we have information on. I didn't like the SA books so I didn't read them that close.

Then NYC..... Which we did know grew DRASTICLY from what we know today (( Today as number 5)) and DID have this effect as it was a coastal city and one of the first to be destroied.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:59 am

lol man have you ever been to NYC?

Anyway, the point is we only have one example of the Madhaven effect, in NYC, nothing of that magnitude is anywhere else.

While I think norad has a great many more people than 300, I don't think it has the numbers needed to pull off the Madhaven effect.

I'd be more scared of a rift opening in there and something scary... like a Red Xitichick hive being in there or something just waiting for somone to stirr up the nest.

Just think of the difference between say carpenter ants and FIRE ants or normal bees and Killer bees, now add it to the Xitichicks... whoo

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:50 am

I haven't finished reading madhaven, so.. I might be mistaken, but the effect there seems to be .. *motions with hand*

Past godly in level and intensity. I.E. no PC could ever do it nor group of PCs it's one of those cataclismic events things.

MASTERMIND · Unread post by **MASTERMIND** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:36 pm

Just read the stats on the Cheyenne Mountain complex and I have to revise my statement, I don't think anything would have survived what that complex went through. The springs are only built to handle 12 inches of movement. If the earth were heaving from a supervolcano that close we would get A LOT more than 12 inches of movement.

It was built to survive a direct hit but only has a 70% chance of maintaining functionality from a 5 megaton blast at no distance closer than 3 miles away. After/during a super-volcano I can see those remaining in the facility (who survived the first few minutes) abandoning the site if they could because once the sensor systems detect that explosion/tremors coming in, it seals itself automatically.

Then someone mentioned something showed up INSIDE the facility? Oh yeah, they totally got slaughtered. It would make for a good Chaos: Earth story though. The apocalypse hits. Supervolcano starts coming up. CMOC seals itself off. Massive earthquake hits killing almost everyone and destroying the functionality of the base. SOMETHING comes out of nowhere and unleashes a holy hell on earth. Sounds a lot like Doom actually.

Nightmaster · Unread post by **Nightmaster** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:14 pm

MASTERMIND wrote:Just read the stats on the Cheyenne Mountain complex and I have to revise my statement, I don't think anything would have survived what that complex went through. The springs are only built to handle 12 inches of movement. If the earth were heaving from a supervolcano that close we would get A LOT more than 12 inches of movement.

It was built to survive a direct hit but only has a 70% chance of maintaining functionality from a 5 megaton blast at no distance closer than 3 miles away. After/during a super-volcano I can see those remaining in the facility (who survived the first few minutes) abandoning the site if they could because once the sensor systems detect that explosion/tremors coming in, it seals itself automatically.

Then someone mentioned something showed up INSIDE the facility? Oh yeah, they totally got slaughtered. It would make for a good Chaos: Earth story though. The apocalypse hits. Supervolcano starts coming up. CMOC seals itself off. Massive earthquake hits killing almost everyone and destroying the functionality of the base. SOMETHING comes out of nowhere and unleashes a holy hell on earth. Sounds a lot like Doom actually.

Just upgrade the complex with modern (2095-2098) technology in all aspects (including earthquake resistance system) and think if it could survive or not. I guess it could survive, not without damage but in overall it could survive.

The thing here is that if the NORAD complex were still operational at 2098 then most sure it would have been upgraded in all its system to keep up with the current technology available.

That would be a must by the time because a new Cold War era have emerged on the world. If not upgraded, the entire complex would be a wortless piece of crap otherwise.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:27 pm

Ravenwing wrote:
Mack wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes NORAD would have a population of a town inside it working but even if they died suddenly when the rifts broke out, or over the years though attrition, would it cause that psychic imprint?

As it stands today, about 300 people work inside the Mountain. It's really all that large inside.

Of course, one could speculate about between today and 2098...

IIRC nearly a Divison can be placed inside.

Maybe if you stack them like firewood. I used to work in the Mountain, there ain't room for that many. It just ain't that big.

(And I severly typed my earlier post. It should've read "It's really NOT all that large inside.) :oops:

Ravenwing · Unread post by **Ravenwing** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:33 am

Mack wrote:
Ravenwing wrote:
Mack wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes NORAD would have a population of a town inside it working but even if they died suddenly when the rifts broke out, or over the years though attrition, would it cause that psychic imprint?

As it stands today, about 300 people work inside the Mountain. It's really all that large inside.

Of course, one could speculate about between today and 2098...

IIRC nearly a Divison can be placed inside.

Maybe if you stack them like firewood. I used to work in the Mountain, there ain't room for that many. It just ain't that big.

(And I severly typed my earlier post. It should've read "It's really NOT all that large inside.)

Never been there, I just thought for some reason that it was suppose to be the fail-safe bunker is all.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:59 am

Mack wrote:
Ravenwing wrote:
Mack wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes NORAD would have a population of a town inside it working but even if they died suddenly when the rifts broke out, or over the years though attrition, would it cause that psychic imprint?

As it stands today, about 300 people work inside the Mountain. It's really all that large inside.

Of course, one could speculate about between today and 2098...

IIRC nearly a Divison can be placed inside.

Maybe if you stack them like firewood. I used to work in the Mountain, there ain't room for that many. It just ain't that big.

(And I severly typed my earlier post. It should've read "It's really NOT all that large inside.)

That or maybe you didn't have access to it all?

Nothing aginst you what so ever, I don't know what rank you held or what you did or anyghing. You could have been a general and know everything about it or could have been the guy that delivered water and changed the lightbulbs.

Not having worked there myself I can only speculate, but concidering what it __IS__ I can't see it running with 300 people and that's it.

Your support staff for a single field army is well over 300 people. NORAD cordinates a massive ammount more than that.

But.. maybe I'm just sorely mistaken. Again, haven't been there. Don't really know.

I would say what others have here. __IF__ It's still operational in 100 years, hopefully they'd have tech that's not 150 years old guarding it. Once they had MDC materials (( What about 2020 by rifts calender?)) They'd have done a full change over and upgrade.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:58 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Your support staff for a single field army is well over 300 people. NORAD cordinates a massive ammount more than that.

Yes, NORAD coordinates more than that, but only a small portion of NORAD is inside Cheyenne Mountain.

The Mountain assembles data from 3 different detection systems, and alerts the command authority of an incoming attack. Once they blow the whistle, their job is done. They have nothing to do with any response (even nuclear launch orders--they go through a different system/facility).

For better or worse, the Mountain has taken on a mythos in pop culture that's impossible to live up to. Even if I took everyone here on a complete tour of the facility, some would think there's another section I kept you away from.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:00 pm

*Nodnodnodnod* That's exactly it. lol.

It'd be like Lone Star in rifts. With secret levels that only some people are allowed into and stuff. Or a least in our heads. *lol*

Nemo235 · Unread post by **Nemo235** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:29 pm

vampire_hunter_D wrote:I just got my copy of Chaos Eath, and reading it, something cught my attention. It mentions another ARCHIE computer, this one at NORAD in Colorado. It goes on to say contact was lost and the base was presumed destroyed.

Now I'm curious. Has it ever been mentioned in Rifts what ever bacame of NORAD or this other ARCHIE? Kinda curious if it's been mentioned anywhere else in any book

Does it mention what version of ARCHIE it is?
(I don't have my copy here right now.)

Some interesting info:

Villains Unlimited mentions that ARCHIE One was created by Cybersystems Network based on the Usurper's theories.
It also goes on to say that he created a prototype power armor nicknamed the "Gltterboy" for KLS Corporation.

So Chaos Earth and Rifts Earth may be a possible future for Heroes Unlimited.

EDIT: I just remembered the new edition of sourcebook one is going to have more info on Archie and the mysterious Republicans.
And let's not forget Archie's pal, Jughead!

Subjugator · Unread post by **Subjugator** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:49 pm

Nemo235 wrote:Does it mention what version of ARCHIE it is?
(I don't have my copy here right now.)

Some interesting info:

Villains Unlimited mentions that ARCHIE One was created by Cybersystems Network based on the Usurper's theories.
It also goes on to say that he created a prototype power armor nicknamed the "Gltterboy" for KLS Corporation.

So Chaos Earth and Rifts Earth may be a possible future for Heroes Unlimited.

EDIT: I just remembered the new edition of sourcebook one is going to have more info on Archie and the mysterious Republicans.
And let's not forget Archie's pal, Jughead!

Ooooohh! I need to go back over this!

/Sub

Greeter · Unread post by **Greeter** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:17 am

Greetings All,

A search on Archie brought up this topic, but didn't answer my questions on it. Are there more Archies mentioned in any of the books? So far we know of the Archie on the moon (7) and Archie 2 (Norad) & 3 (Aberdeen), but are there any other Archie units mentioned in any of the books (aside from Villains Unlimited)?

9voltkilowatt · Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:01 pm

A.R.C.H.I.E. Zero is described on page 142 of Adventures in Dinosaur Swamp. Though hard it is possible to end up in control of this one after the H.L.S. is over.

Greeter · Unread post by **Greeter** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:08 pm

Very cool! Thank you for the info.

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