The future of Ninjas & Superspies

Ten Tigers · Unread post by **Ten Tigers** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:30 pm

Alright, I've scanned the forum and I haven't seen a topic on it so I guess I'll be the bad guy and ask the hard question...

With the demise of Ninjas & Superspies creator Erick Wujcik, what happens to Ninjas & Superspies?

We have been patiently waiting for years for follow up books, and it is now certain that we will never see them. Will another author pick up the the sword and continue the good fight, or as I pessimistically suspect, will the Ninjas & Superspies line quietly follow it's creator into the night?

My thought is this genre should be reinvented. The world of Ninjas & Superspies/Mystic China was Erick's realm. I don't think anyone could or should try carrying the torch on this one. But I do think the vacuum needs to be filled. I'm thinking a brand new title with brand new material. Something that is a game unto itself, but keeps the classic Palladium standard of being compatable with all of Palladium Books other product lines.

Well Defined Martial Arts
Current Events We Can Relate To
Cutting Edge Technology
Epic Adventure

These are the concepts that should be embodied in any new product that would step up to the plate.

What is everybody's thoughts on this? Would you like to see a new product line or would you feel too squeemish about it after what happened with Erick? It's no secret that we all wanted more, but the simple fact is without a dramatic change like this we will just never ever ever ever see another stitch of Ninjas & Superspies material outside of a Rifter article.

Please forgive me if anyone thinks this is inappropriate of me. I personally would like to think that Erick would want us to move on and keep the hobby alive.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:42 pm

I will gladly throw down for some new Martial Arts Goodness. I've always loved N&SS and used it with every Palladium game I've played. Though not every campaign I've played in.

Grandil · Unread post by **Grandil** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:19 am

Misfit KotLD wrote:
Alright, I've scanned the forum and I haven't seen a topic on it so I guess I'll be the bad guy and ask the hard question...

With the demise of Ninjas & Superspies creator Erick Wujcik, what happens to Ninjas & Superspies?

I concur, sad times, but this is what makes palladium unique-The Martial Arts. I've never played The five Rings series; I don't really want a character from that-confusion.

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:01 pm

Ten Tigers wrote:Alright, I've scanned the forum and I haven't seen a topic on it so I guess I'll be the bad guy and ask the hard question...

With the demise of Ninjas & Superspies creator Erick Wujcik, what happens to Ninjas & Superspies?

At this point, only Kevin knows.

Ten Tigers wrote:My thought is this genre should be reinvented. The world of Ninjas & Superspies/Mystic China was Erick's realm. I don't think anyone could or should try carrying the torch on this one. But I do think the vacuum needs to be filled. I'm thinking a brand new title with brand new material. Something that is a game unto itself, but keeps the classic Palladium standard of being compatable with all of Palladium Books other product lines.

Well Defined Martial Arts
Current Events We Can Relate To
Cutting Edge Technology
Epic Adventure

These are the concepts that should be embodied in any new product that would step up to the plate.

Actually, I'd delete the "Current Events" concept. That would tie it too closely to the current day and it wouldn't age well.

Ten Tigers wrote:What is everybody's thoughts on this? Would you like to see a new product line or would you feel too squeemish about it after what happened with Erick? It's no secret that we all wanted more, but the simple fact is without a dramatic change like this we will just never ever ever ever see another stitch of Ninjas & Superspies material outside of a Rifter article.

I'm going to Gencon next week. I may go by the Palladium booth and ask Kevin to look at the things I've written for N&S.

Misfit KotLD · Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:17 pm

Good luck, Mantisking.

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:33 pm

Misfit KotLD wrote:Good luck, Mantisking.

Thanks. I've got about a week to get it all looking good.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:48 am

I'm going to continue to use the books he helped create! And I have my players using them too. It will never fade from my games!

Grandil · Unread post by **Grandil** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:29 am

Good Luck from me too Mantisking! Hope Kevin looks at it!
Grandil

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:34 pm

Grandil wrote:Good Luck from me too Mantisking! Hope Kevin looks at it!
Grandil

Thanks. I cleaned up and printed out a few things to show my range (vehicles, martial arts, skills, weapons, and spy agencies).

Ten Tigers · Unread post by **Ten Tigers** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:27 pm

Keep it S.D.C.

A.R. is our friend.

And for the love of god use armor penetration.

Other than that, good luck man.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:36 pm

Ten Tigers wrote:Keep it S.D.C.

A.R. is our friend.

And for the love of god use armor penetration.

Other than that, good luck man.

Why on earth wouldn't it be SDC?

Library Ogre · Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:09 pm

Personally, I'd love to see some non-Asian martial arts... Russian Sambo, write-ups of Wrestling, etc.

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:35 pm

Mephisto wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Personally, I'd love to see some non-Asian martial arts... Russian Sambo, write-ups of Wrestling, etc.

I'd like to see Bare Knuckle Boxing, Pit Fighting, Shoot Fighting, Trap Fighting...different kinds of cage fighting styles.

The first rule of Ninjas and Superspies is that we don't talk about Ninjas and Superspies.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:26 am

It would be cool to see some of those non asian styles to add them to our overall collections! I'd like to see and use them in a game!

barna10 · Unread post by **barna10** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:05 am

I would like to see a piece-meal approach, like how we have boxing, wrestling, and kick-boxing as skills. With enough new skills like these you could max and match and add your own flavor to create any style you wanted.

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:36 am

macksting wrote:In addition to my correlational studies, the main purpose of which is to encourage the proper formation and/or integration of new martial arts, I also present this bit of debugging material.

Disarm. In every martial art, it is listed under Advanced Defenses. However, under Chi Husan Men, it's listed as a Special Attack. I consider this a minor error.

I would see this as a different use. Most martial arts disarm in response to being attack. In Chi Husan Men, they disarm offensively... taking out the opponents weapon in order to bring the fight down (or give themselves an advantage).

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:39 am

Macksting, which version of the game are you doing your correlational studies with?

csbioborg · Unread post by **csbioborg** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:40 pm

Mark Hall wrote:Personally, I'd love to see some non-Asian martial arts... Russian Sambo, write-ups of Wrestling, etc.

There's not really that much difference between tournment judo and tournment sambo to require a write up. Basically there are knee bars in it. The gi is different and a five point throw end the match. Combat Sambo is a bit different. That has a variety of competitions including some striing and a weapons disarm section.

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:21 pm

macksting wrote:Interesting question. I'll look into it.
Ninjas & Superspies Revised, 5th Printing 1994. 17 character classes, even though the cover says 14.

What should I know?

There are some differences between the original and the revised, such as additional -- unnecessary according to some, OCCs.

Nekira Sudacne · Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:07 pm

I definately think more should be done with N&SS.

I disagree that the line should be replaced with the death of Wujik. For starters, there's no way he'd ever want that, or feel that no one else should touch his work. I am definatly humbled by his talent, but just because the a great man started a great work dosn't mean it needs to be left unfinished with his untimely death. In fact, I think he left lots of room for which a new author to expand. I mean, other than China, he hadn't even touched the rest of the planet. N&SS could certainly use another book with western fighting styles (They're out there...), as well as a book on more modern fighting styles.

Not to mention the adventure books. I mean. Ninjas. and Superspys. Any GM worth his salt can (and does), come up with a dozen good adventure ideas. A book discribing new places, organizations and useful NPC's would rock.

I do agree, however, that we do need some in between ranking between Jedi Master and Goon #2.

Mercalocalypse · Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:36 pm

Its been a long time, there needs to be new books.

gaby · Unread post by **gaby** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:19 am

I hope to see a Book on criminal,subversive and government Organizations,all of them are fiction.

they need to Give the Hierarchy and Structure.

Maybe a few Npc,s.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:51 am

I'd like to see that Secret Societies creation table the author created for another PB game. It would be very useful for this game.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:20 am

Actually I could use it in any of the PB games! There is room for them in any of them.

Lord Z · Unread post by **Lord Z** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:50 pm

I tend to agree wtih Nekira Sudacne. Supplemental material would be more useful than another edition. What actual purpose would a newer edition serve? N&SS as well as MC are both aging very well. From a player's point of view, I can't think of any aspects of the newer games like Rifts:UE, Dead Reign, etc. which render N&SS/MC any more or less compatible than they ever were. From a publisher's point of view, N&SS/MC continue to sell with each printing, and I personally can't see a newer edition selling much better.

Beatmeclever · Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:23 pm

I am with the camp that says the game is fine and doesn't need updating, however, I think the OCCs need to be either made to Mystic China style or MC needs to be made to N&SS standard.

Other than that, we just need sourcebooks that create more of a world to play in. I mean, I have had my own world for years, but maybe if there were sourcebooks for creating an evil genius and the SPECTRE-like organization under that person's control, technology updates, support units for the superspies, or asian monasteries and european combat colleges.

Grandil · Unread post by **Grandil** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:42 pm

Actually, I agree with most of this. What about Warpath? Will it have MA's? I
wonder :roll:

Lord Z · Unread post by **Lord Z** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:24 pm

I wanted to place the Warpath novel on my X-Mas Wish List, but it was out of stock. Has anyone in this forum actually read the book?

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:53 am

I've got the novel and it's on my to read list. But I haven't read it yet. Sorry.

Lord Z · Unread post by **Lord Z** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:24 am

You are still my hero, A-bomb.

RockJock · Unread post by **RockJock** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:21 pm

I would love to see new books, or an updated of the two we have to be closer to the modern rule set. Either way I would suggest a reworked conversion section to more easily allow N&SS to integrate into the whole PB lineup. Some purists may balk at this, but a lot more people use bits and pieces of N&SS in other games then use it in straight N&SS games only.

If you do go with a reworked book with modern world info I suggest staying away from stating out equipment so much. I know it is a little GURPish, but having three prices for computers equaling bleeding edge, high end, and average, or something similar keeps things from getting outdated quite as easily. That way the basic info will work for 1980 or 2020. I've always used the pricing as a guide, but I have seen GMs use it as an unalterable bible, which just gets silly.

Hendrik · Unread post by **Hendrik** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:47 pm

RockJock wrote:I would love to see new books, or an updated of the two we have to be closer to the modern rule set. Either way I would suggest a reworked conversion section to more easily allow N&SS to integrate into the whole PB lineup. Some purists may balk at this, but a lot more people use bits and pieces of N&SS in other games then use it in straight N&SS games only.

If you do go with a reworked book with modern world info I suggest staying away from stating out equipment so much. I know it is a little GURPish, but having three prices for computers equaling bleeding edge, high end, and average, or something similar keeps things from getting outdated quite as easily. That way the basic info will work for 1980 or 2020. I've always used the pricing as a guide, but I have seen GMs use it as an unalterable bible, which just gets silly.

Amen to that! All of what you said, RockJock.

Cheers
Hendrik

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:02 pm

I'd like to see the main system reworked to look more like N&S.

Colt47 · Unread post by **Colt47** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:40 pm

This gaming system has the best hand to hand combat rules out of all the megaverse products. I mean, I use the freaking N&SS hand to hand stuff over the Rifts hand to hand just because it lists out the moves! Yes the combat bonuses aren't as high as they are in Rifts, but at least they make sense. How the heck does someone at level 2 martial arts suddenly able to perform karate (um... he is already performing karate, that is the point of taking martial arts hand to hand), and every kind of hand strike? And what on earth is a karate style kick? I've seen round house kicks, snap kicks, backwards sweep, crescent kicks, but never something someone called a karate style kick. :lol:

It does do 2d6 damage though so it must be one heck of a kick.

So in any case I'm hoping to see this system continue to live.

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:39 pm

TG1 wrote:However, I would like to add to the Superspies area, mostly in the area of agencies in the world, covering both known agencies around the world, along with underground ones as well. And possibly make more additions to skills and maybe add OCC classes. That would be cool...

Why new O.C.C.s? The game already has enough. New skills and new skill programs are all that's needed. We don't need the O.C.C. bloat problem that Rifts has.

Colt47 · Unread post by **Colt47** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:46 pm

A lot of the O.C.C classes that are available in Rifts are more so based off of titles. What is a Knight but a individual who has earned knighthood through his or her deeds for a kingdom? Yet there it is: Royal Knight and Knight OCCs in the Rifts England book.

Mechanurgist · Unread post by **Mechanurgist** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:40 pm

A revised version of N&SS that fits better into the megaverse would be great. Something that integrates and simplifies ISP, PPE and Chi, as well as standardizing all the various hand-to-hand versions out there, so the N&SS can be quickly plugged into Rifts, HU, After the Bomb, etc. if someone wants to use advanced martial arts.

Also, more details on modern gadgetry is an urgently needed update.

RockJock · Unread post by **RockJock** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:20 pm

Now who wants to do a manuscript:P

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:25 pm

Basically, if N&Ss gets rewritten they have a choice - to Chi or not to Chi. If Chi is continued then it will make N&Ss less compatible with the other books (trust me, I've tried woking N&Ss into other games, not pretty what happens).

I think Erick Wujick's work in Rifts: Mystic China gives us our best "No Chi" basis for a 2nd Edition N&Ss. It works with the megaversal mechanics well and still keeps a cool martial arts flavour to it.

Mechanurgist · Unread post by **Mechanurgist** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:44 pm

I don't own HU2. Does it contain as many detailed martial art styles and gizmoteer options as N&SS? If so, then you're probably right.

Grandil · Unread post by **Grandil** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:58 pm

I think Erick Wujick's work in Rifts: Mystic China? gives us our best "No Chi" basis for a 2nd
Edition N&Ss. It works with the megaversal mechanics well and still keeps a cool martial arts flavour to it.

Remember, Jeffar, there's a difference between Mystic China, & Rifts China 1, & 2. Humbly
yours, Grandil

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:07 pm

There definitely is a difference - but if we are looking for a new edition of Ninjas and Superspies we need to look towards ways of making it more connected to the rest of the megaversal line - Rifts China I think has the best examples of how to do that.

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:57 pm

Jefffar wrote:There definitely is a difference - but if we are looking for a new edition of Ninjas and Superspies we need to look towards ways of making it more connected to the rest of the megaversal line - Rifts China I think has the best examples of how to do that.

I've tried to avoid pimping it for a while, but I actually do go into the differences between PPE, Chi, and ISP in Mysteries of Magic. Personally, I'd like to keep them separated.

Grandil · Unread post by **Grandil** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:07 pm

Jefffar wrote:There definitely is a difference - but if we are looking for a new edition of Ninjas and Superspies we need to look towards ways of making it more connected to the rest of the megaversal line - Rifts China I think has the best examples of how to do that.

Then again, using the "real" Chi version, instead of the soft/hard I.S.P. is problematic. What I'll
never understand is Erick's "caving in" to the idea of mental powers, when he explains quite
eloquently in mystic china about Chi being endocrinologically based-Not on your brain. The
Enlightened Immortals are excellent examples of this. They actually change their internal
chemistry through their Parasympathetic system/gonads-& I don't mean the reproductive
system.

Personally I like some aspects of the new system, but if push came to shove, I'd
pick Chi over I.S.P.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:04 am

The problem with using the Chi system is that the rest of the megaverse hasn't been set up to integrate with it. So as a result you end up with something that is either uber-powerful because nothing outside of the N&Ss series can defend against it or something thatis incredibly weak because it doesn't work on anything else in the megaverse.

There were a number of different attempts at integrating mystic martial arts int he wider universe. Some are really basic (ie Warrior Monk in PFRPG, Ancient Master and Physical Trainining HU) some go into further detail (ie PPE based Martial Arts abilities in Rifts Japan, ISP based martial arts abilities in Rifts China). Of all of them, I think what was presented in Rifts China (and written by Erick Wujik, author of N&Ss) was probably the best done version. It is fully playable with the rest of the megaverse but still distinct enough in flavour to stand apart.

Library Ogre · Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:42 am

Mephisto wrote:
TG1 wrote:HU2 does NOT contain any other combat abilities other than Basic, Expert, Martial Arts, and Assassin.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is Ancient Master's Hand to Hand: Martial Arts Master, and Physical Training's Defensive and Fast Combat and Aggressive and Deadly Combat to include as well.

I've also been thinking of making a Worldly Martial Artist as a Physical Training (with a focus bonus and some styles updated for HU2, such as including Initiative bonuses and attribute boosts through levels) and some Mercenary special training categories (Hunter/Vigilante by itself just doesn't really cut it).

I don't think I'll be including Chi though, because it doesn't need modifying from Ninjas and Superspies. It also helps even the playing field beyond the really good melee fighters and the ones that choose to focus on inward knowledge and ability that Chi is definitely a proponent of.

Oh, and Natural Combat Ability.

And you could class "Invulnerability" as a combat style. ;-)

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:41 pm

Xybros wrote:I really like the concept of chi in N&SS. If they replaced it with I.S.P. it would ruin it for me. Completely ruin it.

here is a quick modern explanation of chi:
In Asian tradition, chi is the life force which permeates the world. In addition to being in all living beings, chi is also found in spaces such as homes and gardens.

Now if my character has to be psychic to learn chi abilities it would really bum me out on N&SS genre. For RIFTS it works fine, but not for N&SS. A P.P.E. system might work if done well, but it would be hard to replace chi conceptually in the oriental martial arts. Just my 2 cents...

The characters in Rifts China don't specifically have to be psychic to harness their mystic martial arts abilities.