Does Shape Shifting Allow

[AlanGunhouse]

I think my favorite "Munckin" effect was the guy with duplication and multiple beings/selves who also had Possession. He created the duplicates, split the duplicates into his multiple selves, and then had each multiple self possess someone separate and took over the entire city government. It was not my character, but the point is that certain powers used in combination become incredibly potent.

Personally I would not give you any Natural AR with any effects from Shapeshifting, but as I said I tend to be a bit more strict on my interpretation of what you can do with this power than most, so it seems.

[elecgraystone]

I missed something here. Control Insects? That's a Major power starting fully 30 pages away from Clock Manipulation. I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

The power clock manipulation came out in the villains unlimited book as a major power. The power that came right after it was control insects. I've always assumes that either clock manipulation was put in the wrong section, or part of the power was covered in a cut/paste accident with the picture from control insect that was between the two powers. (pretty bees) That was what I was talking about.

And while I agree not all powers are equal they should all meet a minimum standard to be in that category. Like with darkness control. it wouldn't be my first pick by far, but I wouldn't be upset if I rolled it randomly as a major.

To the plugging of the Palladium Book of Monsters & Animals. I fail to see the difference between plugging it in the original power or plugging the power you say you look at for the damage. Either way you HAVE to see the plug. The fact is they never say which animal stats, so any you find either in the book or anywhere the book suggests, should be fine.

Eh. So you found a way to deal 3d6 damage with horns. This doesn't strike me as a serious problem. It does limit the attack to head butts if you want the full 3d6. *shrugs* Still no combat bonuses.

LOL this was my point all along. 3d6 with no bonuses wasn't a problem. I fail do see how a limit of headbutt make a difference. How does making claws 3d6 too change anything? You can only attack with one natural weapon. *shrug*

I have to agree with you on Body Weapons. I can't see it doing anything for gliding. It can't even make a real lock pick, having to use a pick as an improvised one. I'd think doing that would be easier than a glider wing.

[AlanGunhouse]

In general terms, a power can do up to 5 things:
1) Information gathering: Anything from keen senses to Mechano Link to read computers
2) Transportation: Anything from teleportation or flight at super speed to walking on mist or oozing through cracks in liquid form qualifies.
3) Offense: Most powers have SOME offensive use...though it may take the character some work to find it.
4) Defense: Keeping you from being hit in the first place or keeping you from being hurt, either way works...so does healing after being hurt.
5) Style: It is not just what you do, but how you do it. All powers have some style, some just have more than others. A High Style power is one you can shape a character around, even if it migh not be the most potent power the character has.

I tend to rate each as follows 0) insignificant or lacking 1) minor, 2) moderate, or 3) major.

Most major powers can do at least 2 things at moderate or better level...other than style (which is generally a matter of opinon anyway).

My particular point? Shapechanger is a Moderate Information, Moderate Attack, high style power. If it was intended to be a defensive power, the ability to grant characters natural armor would have been listed if it was intended to be included.

Just so you know, Invisibility is a Moderate Information, Moderate Defense, High Style power.

[elecgraystone]

LOL I don't think I've ever had a character with invisibility.

I disagree with you on invisibility. That defensive power gives -6 to parry/dodge. As long a your character can roll a 4 or better, that's the same as you having a +6 strike all day unless they have some way of sensing you. The power doesn't give you an attack, but +6 is better than a lacking or minor offense.

Intangibility doesn't fit either. Defense, travel and information all get a 2 IMO.

Alter limb attacks better than shapechanger, has GREAT travel, information gathering (change hand into scope, infra/ultra vision goggles, night vision goggles, armshields. So major attacks, information, minor defense, and moderate to major travel. Looking at your chart, to blows shapechanger out of the water.

Even lowly darkness control comes out better. Defense: blinding foes (-8 strike) or shadow meld for invisibility. Offense: -8 parry/dodges from foes while you get none, HF. Information: nightvision and seeing through unnatural darkness, shadowmeld. It has a solid moderate in three places. "." has been telling me 'Darkness Control was seen as being one notch better' than a minor and shapeshanger came out below it using your method.

Not going into style. The style of a power all depends in the PC running it. I'd have rather seen a versatility or utility category, instead of something as subjective as style.

[elecgraystone]

Alter limbs can mimic a flashlight, a siren, a drill, electric screwdriver ect. And the limit is your knowledge of them. If it's JUST mechanical objects, then none of those could be made. If you understand how nightvision goggles are built, you can make them. And since flashlight is listed under 'motorized body parts', I can't see how anyone could ban goggles/scopes.

[AlanGunhouse]

Actually, I suspect the "flashlight" works by turning part of your body into a transparent kerotinized layer used as a lens and creating a volitile chemical that "burns" producing a steady glow behind it. We already know Alter limbs can create "hand grenades", so why not a lower intensity burn to produce light?

Alternatively, this could be more like a firefly.

The Human body does produce electricity though, in limited amounts.

In any case, I do not see anything in Shapechanger that says you can enhance senses with it, or use it as a defense, so I would be very careful about allowing my players to use it that way.

OK, so Invisibility is a minor attack power too, I said AT LEAST 2 modrate effects to be a major power, I never said there could not be more effects.

I do agree, Utility might work better than something as subjective as style...except we seem to be debating ways to increase the utility of powers.

[AlanGunhouse]

[quote="."] I suspected as much, but it's just know I'm begining to have doubts and I'm coming up with what Happens should "elecgraystone" be right.
Either way, transpartent Keritan inplys you have the same ability to grow Biological matter that the Shape Changer power offers. This means you may still be able to:

Create: Cool cooled shades.
Create: The appearance of niffty looking, or normal, or outradgious clothes.
Create: Limited shape cahging effects, Like altering height/size and body perameters to pass as someone other than yourself.
Create: Odd looking Biological appendages like crab hands & limited tentical/manipulators (equal to the lesser power "Alter Limbs:Tenticals"...but with a much shorter range of course!).
Create: Floatation limbs!
Create: An engine that can be easily strapped to a generator to Produce electricity.
Create: Strange bug legs, mermaid like legs...etc.[quote]

Well, the first point is this power only effects your arms, legs, and (if possessed) wings or tail, not your head. Shades no. Clothing...well possibly on the limbs, not on the torso. Changing height, easy. Tentacle and/or crab claws or bug legs...well mechanical equivalents anyway. An engine, to an extent that can be done.

[elecgraystone]

Actually, I suspect the "flashlight" works by turning part of your body into a transparent kerotinized layer used as a lens and creating a volatile chemical that "burns" producing a steady glow behind it. We already know Alter limbs can create "hand grenades", so why not a lower intensity burn to produce light?

Alternatively, this could be more like a firefly.

The Human body does produce electricity though, in limited amounts.

Why do you assume that when the whole point of the power is in turning your limbs into inorganic machines? Why do you base things on what an organic solution when mechanical is more plausible and logical.

Flashing neon lights, tasers, cattle prod, spike launcher, any optics or communications system, any surveillance and sensory equipment that doesn't rely on anything being left behind (unless you own anatomical independence too) and much more. If your character is smart and takes as many communication, mechanical and electrical skills as possible, there are few things in the equipment section out of bounds.

As to clothes and armors. If you have wings, I've toyed around with the idea of changing them into clothes and armors. You get rid of you wings and at the same time cover up. Or instead of rocket feet a jetpack out of your wings. Wings just add LOTS os possibilities.

In any case, I do not see anything in Shapechanger that says you can enhance senses with it, or use it as a defense, so I would be very careful about allowing my players to use it that way.

OK, so Invisibility is a minor attack power too, I said AT LEAST 2 moderate effects to be a major power, I never said there could not be more effects.

I do agree, Utility might work better than something as subjective as style...except we seem to be debating ways to increase the utility of powers.

That's where we differ. I see -6 parry and dodge on everyone 24/7 better than a minor. Most straight attack powers don't give you a +6 to attack do they? Give the invisible guy a halberd and he does as much damage as the claw minor power and the plusses are MUCH bigger. So IMO not a minor.

However, utility is one of the points I agree. There is so much possibility with the utility of shapechanger and so much room to do what you want with it since the limit are so few. I look at it kind of like how alter limb works with machines, shapechanger works with humanoids.

Without this kind of utility, shapechanger really is left far behind the rest of the majors. Heck, most things I've seen posted for shapechanger tricks do not even make it up to minor powers. You bunch a lot of non even minors into a pile and that might make it to a minor. You didn't seem to have a problem with invisible having a minor combat too, did you. Even if you add armor into the equation, it itself only equals a minor defense.

For me, you add the utility I'm talking about you end up with this for shapechanger.

1) Information gathering: insignificant to minor (several senses can be made but range if far inferior to powers and no bonuses), Moderate if PB stat can be changed and disguising actually works. (as is, disguise is mostly useless with no stat change)
2) Transportation: insignificant to minor (climb claws, wings, swim fins ect give small bonuses to movement types, but none come anywhere close to a power. (not equal to the minor but not insignificant either)
3) Offense: insignificant to minor (while damage equals claws, it gains no bonuses, so it's not equal to the minor but not insignificant either)
4) Defense: Minor (roughly equivalent to hardened skin. Natural armor may start higher in AR, but power scales AR and SDC as leveling)
5) Utility: Moderate to major (depends on how ingenious the character is.)

[AlanGunhouse]

The point of debate, on Alter Limbs, is how far electronic, rather than mechanical, solutions can be made. Taser? Not unless you have an energy blast most likely. I mean, you could make as rational an argument for a LASER as a Taser, and they specificly ruled that you can NOT do energy attacks with this power in the description.

I have considerable doubts about using Alter Limbs to create any kind of Surveillance Device more advanced than a periscope or possibly a parabiloc microphone. Light Amplifiers...vaguely possible...but like ALL electronic devices, you would need Electrical Emgineer to get past a certain degree of complexity.

[elecgraystone]

Personally I'd say you'd need Electrical Engineer to make the drill too. (basic electronics doesn't cover the electric motor in it.)

As to 'how far electronic, rather than mechanical', they put a purely electrical object in the list of things you can make. A flashlight with no on switch needs 0% mechanical knowledge to make. So looks like it can be 100% electrical. Complexity is based on skills.

For the optics you'd need optic systems, mechanical and electrical engineer IMO. To get anything close to full utility out of this power you need a LOT of skills.

Nowhere does it say you can't make an energy attack as you stated in your last post. As far as the taser does, it says that you can't fire energy BOLTS, not that you can't do electrical damage. So no range (IE taser and cattle prod).

What is wrong with Surveillance Devices? You can make a siren, so microphones are in. Transmitters are fine (nothing about emitting non-damaging energy at range). Phone tap good. Sound amplifiers and frequency converters and equalizers should be fine too.

[AlanGunhouse]

I remember the old crank hand drill I used to use a long time ago, there is no logical reason drills should be electrical on this power.

As to Stone races, finding rocks that glow in certain cirmstances are easy to find. What I was suggesting is that it is easier to stick with the materials your body is made of for this power than to create something out of materials not normally included. If you were a stome or metal race, that would be stone or metal.

About creating a hard drive...if you happen to know exactly how to make one (Electrical Engineering + Computer Repair), then go right ahead. The major limit on this powers is knowing what you are doing.

[elecgraystone]

Look at the electric screwdriver that is one of the things they point out you can make. It has an electric motor by definition. That was the reason I went with an electric drill. Why not? I can make electric motors.

I fail to see why the power uses the bodies own materials when I know it can already make metals (body weapons). With body weapons you can make your hand into a large metal ball to beat people with. It doesn't it seem far fetch that they make glass, ceramics, rubber, silicon or anything else they need it make the machine. It's a physical structure altering power like bio armor, APS's, and the like. It makes sense I could turn my whole body into crystal, but I have to make a lens from my own body materials?

I trend to agree with '.'s argument on why we shouldn't be looking at powers from the human perspective. Why go into all the things a human body does when we have vegetation and mineral aliens too. It makes so much more sense to treat this like the book does. It's an APS power, allowing you to alter your physical structure.

Yes Waysenna, hard drives are no problem with the right skills. (as are zip drives and the little usb drives)

[AlanGunhouse]

Nowhere does it say you can't make an energy attack as you stated in your last post. As far as the taser does, it says that you can't fire energy BOLTS, not that you can't do electrical damage. So no range (IE taser and cattle prod).

What is wrong with Surveillance Devices? You can make a siren, so microphones are in. Transmitters are fine (nothing about emitting non-damaging energy at range). Phone tap good. Sound amplifiers and frequency converters and equalizers should be fine too.

Cattle prods existed long before they were electrified. I assume that the term "Electric Screwdriver" was meant to read "power screwdriver".., they do make misprints.

Unless you have anatomical separation, which as far as I know can not be combined with Alter Limbs, you can not create anything which can be completely separated fropm your body and will function. In theory, you could do a listening device on a "wire" (like a Cybergeneration Scout).

[elecgraystone]

*shrug* What they may possibly have meant doesn't really matter. What they said was electric screwdriver. Which means that unless they change the wording in a future edition or in the faq/errata, that electric motors can be made with the power for use with the machines they create. Taking that into account, that means the character can produce electricity. (you can't run an electric motor without electricity)

Here is what I said earlier. "Flashing neon lights, tasers, cattle prod, spike launcher, any optics or communications system, any surveillance and sensory equipment that doesn't rely on anything being left behind (unless you own anatomical independence too) and much more."

A non-electric cattle prod falls under the body weapons part of the power. A electric cattle prod would fall under the second power mechanized body weapons (creating modern weapons and useful machines).

[AlanGunhouse]

Unfortunately the rule of thumb is you can not apply two different powers that change your physical body at the same time, so the length of your "teather" would be based solely on the limits of Alter Limbs. It states as much on page 74 of the main book.

[elecgraystone]

You would be 100% correct if anatomical independence was an APS. It's doesn't alter the physical structure of the body at all. All functions are 100% the same and nothing is changed about the things removed. It's some kind of freaky gateway/teleportation power since blood still flows though the part removed from your body and damage to the limb hurts you since you really are still attached to it.

[AlanGunhouse]

It does not have to be an APS power, as long as it is altering the body. Your theory on Anatomical Independance is debatable at best.

[elecgraystone]

It does not have to be an APS power, as long as it is altering the body. Your theory on Anatomical Independance is debatable at best.

Actually, yes it would have to be a APS power. looking at pg#74 like you said it states "Two powers that alter the character's physical structure can not be used simulatneously." IE APS powers. Also look at the table on page 228, Alter physical structure sub-table. You see that plenty of things are APS powers without having APS in their name.

As to Anatomical Independance, please tell me what part of the physical structure is altered. The power clearly states that the body parts continue to work as if they were still attached. So nothing has been altered. It has to be some kind of gateway/teleportation power since blood still flows though the part. How else to you explain it?

[AlanGunhouse]

I assume you are not looking for a 5 page dissertation on how exactly the power would most logically work. I could probably explain it if you really want to know...I used to do that sort of thing all the time. As a GM I would probably rule against being able to combine the two, but if you would prefer to do different in your game feel free.

[elecgraystone]

I'd honestly like you to say why you think this would be an APS power (No, I'm not looking for 5 pages). I don't see that at all. To me the most logical way to explain it would be as I said. The power creates small gateways keeping the limbs attached. IMO anything else doesn't explain the blood still flowing through the limbs or the main body taking damage when a limb is attacked.

I can't see this power altering the physical structure of the body in the least. The way I look at it, if this is an APS power then most if not all of the powers in the book are too with such a broad interpretation.

[AlanGunhouse]

For the same reason you can not combine Stretching with any APS power, which it states is the case. Look on page 74 of the main book for a list of powers that can not be used in combination with APS powers.

[elecgraystone]

LOL I've looked at BOTH lists. All of them actually change the body. (except bio-armor. Never understood why it's one)

Stretching actually alters the body, limbs stretch. Anatomical Independance doesn't, all funtions of your body remain the same with it as if the part was still attached. It doesn't alter the body at all. It allows parts to function without being attached and regenerates parts destroyed. That's all.

You still haven't said WHY you think it's a APS power. What in the power description makes you think it is? Why isn't a gateway type power more likely? Please tell me how the blood is getting from the characters heart to the limbs if some kind of teleportation isn't going on.

[AlanGunhouse]

It is an Alteration power because it allows you to alter what you are doing with your body. The crawling eye trick for example...

My point is that it is that if bio-armor belongs, so does Anatomical Independance.

[elecgraystone]

It is an Alteration power because it allows you to alter what you are doing with your body. The crawling eye trick for example...

My point is that it is that if bio-armor belongs, so does Anatomical Independance.

By that explanation almost EVERY power is an APS. Super senses ALTER how you body takes in information. Flight ALTERS your movement as does adhesion.

All the eye trick means is that the mutant has a tough eyeball, nothing more. As I said, I can't wrap my head around bio-armor being an APS. Personally, I think they put it in that category NOT because it really was one but they did want it to stack with the others for some reason. I fail to see how it's different from matter expulsion powers that give you a similar armor.

We're going to have to agree to disagree if it's an APS. Logically it doesn't seem like one to me, but then neither does bio-armor. If would be nice if powers had a note that they were APS. But then a LOT of things would be nice, like pointing out which OCC's were men at arms, adventurers or magic OR if a race was a D-bee, supernatural creature or a creature of magic. I can dream I guess.

[AlanGunhouse]

Well, I will admit that the Matter Expulsion powers, which came later, might alter the placing of Bio Armor. If they ever do a PU 4, trhey need to make an official declaration of what powers are stackable.

[elecgraystone]

I'd really like such a list. If they are going to say some powers do not stack it's not too much to ask that they point out which ones they mean.

[AlanGunhouse]

There are certainly times when it would be useful to have an official list. Until then, it is a GM call question. I think we can all agree that arguing with a GM about what is or is not allowed in his setting is not a good idea

[elecgraystone]

True, but that doesn't help when you're the one of the GM's. If the two of us were in a game together, one of us would be thinking the other person was doing it wrong. With no clear guidelines what's in or out, you are just asking for conflicts. I don't mind houserules (it's hard to play palladium without a few), but here you can't even tell if it is a houserule or an already allowable power. In a no-houserule game, we'd be disagreeing if they combined.

All they would have had to do is put a * by every APS power and note that. Simple, clear and easy.

[AlanGunhouse]

Well, perhaps one of them will read this forum and put that in future editions of HU products.

[Tinker Dragoon]

This message has been moved to the Heroes Unlimited Forum, where the topic is more applicable and appropriate. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to deific.nmi@gmail.com, including the url to the post in question.

[Steeler49er]

Humm, I thought this thread had been deleted.

Nice to see it again.