Alter Limbs Limb-itations.

[AlanGunhouse]

Well, there are a number of things you can do if you have an energy power to combine with Alter Limbs...but I think electronics would be the province of one of the APS powers for the most part.

It really depends what you mean by electronics...and it may well depend on having an appropriate skill. I mean, As I noted in the other thread, the human body does produce electricity (ever see "The Matrix"). Furthermore, carbon can be used to create semi-conductors...or even just plain conductors. It might be possible to create a number of items that would work by "electronics", but you would need to have a great deal of skill to do so.

In general terms, You would probably have trouble producing any electronic technology more complex than, let us estimate, what might be done in 1970. Simply put, microcircuits are so complex it would take a person who has both high levels of Electrical Engineer and high levels of Biology/Biochemistry and several hours to emulate them.

Yes, for information, that does mean you can do an AM radio (including transmission)...though FM is theoretically possible it is harder. You might even be able to produce pictures on a "screen"...though an LCD version is actually easier than a CRT.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Alter Limbs can be used to make electrical devices like power tools and energy weapons, but I don't know about sophisticated electronics.

It does mention in the description that the character can form fairly complex machines if he has appropriate mechanical skills, so it could be argued that a character with electrical skills should likewise be able to form electronic devices.

Personally, I wouldn't allow computers, but simpler electromechanical devices like circuit tracers, antennas, voltmeters, flashlights, microphones, and so forth seem fine to me, as long as the character has the electrical skills necessary to design and build such things.

[AlanGunhouse]

Alter Limbs can be used to make electrical devices like power tools and energy weapons, but I don't know about sophisticated electronics.

It does mention in the description that the character can form fairly complex machines if he has appropriate mechanical skills, so it could be argued that a character with electrical skills should likewise be able to form electronic devices.

Personally, I wouldn't allow computers, but simpler electromechanical devices like circuit tracers, antennas, voltmeters, flashlights, microphones, and so forth seem fine to me, as long as the character has the electrical skills necessary to design and build such things.

Powers tools, as formed with Alter Limbs, are not electronic. Energy Weapons are specified as requiring the character also have an Energy Attack.

I quite agree about simple elctronic devices, you need to know to some extent what you are doing.

Anywho, the power never said you can create soft ware for a device, even if you could create one.

True, even if you could create a computer, programming is quite another kettle of fish.

[elecgraystone]

Powers tools, as formed with Alter Limbs, are not electronic. Energy Weapons are specified as requiring the character also have an Energy Attack.

The electric motor in an electric drill or screwdriver isn't electronic? And RANGED energy weapons require an energy attack.

Personally, I wouldn't allow computers, but simpler electromechanical devices like circuit tracers, antennas, voltmeters, flashlights, microphones, and so forth seem fine to me, as long as the character has the electrical skills necessary to design and build such things.

IMO as long as the character knows how it's built, it doen't require part to be away from the person and size doesn't become an issue, pretty much everything is fair game.

[elecgraystone]

Hummm...I considered the consept of creating a mini computer...and yet, for all my vaunted smarts...Never even thought about a screen...Odd.

Anywho, the power never said you can create soft ware for a device, even if you could create one.

Even if you somehow Could create a PC...You'd still have to load DOS, MS...etc. Which would take hours.
And even longer if you add Minesweeper and Solitare to the mix.

You could preload everything into a portable hard drive and just incorporate it into the computer when you need it. They can be VERY small these days and it's a lot easier to carry that around than a computer.

Another thought is this. Why couldn't you make a power cord when you create the devices, eliminating the HP drain as long as you are plugged in? (or carry a battery or e-clip?)

[Tinker Dragoon]

It seems like you could easily transform a finger into a power cord, but then you would effectively be sticking your finger into an electrical outlet. I think this would only be a viable option for characters with the power to absorb, conduct, or rechannel electricity.

Actually, I don't know why the book doesn't mention using electrical powers to fuel such devices in the first place, but it's possible that the designers' intent for the power was that motorized devices are fueled by the superbeing's "life energy" rather than electricity.

[elecgraystone]

Why would you shock yourself? You have to be able to make insulators for anything electrical work. The voltmeter you suggested was possible would shock you too is it couldn't be put on an electrical circuit.

For that matter, why couldn't I make a gun and put in clips, firing those instead of making bullets with HP? I'm inclined to think that the creator of the power never thought of the option. It doesn't seem to overpower it by having to sit by the electrical outlet to avoid HP lose, or carrying around a clip or battery that can be stolen, lost ect. It would also be a solution for those poor bastards that roll this power and don't have 15 hp, so they can't get half the powers to work.

[AlanGunhouse]

Why would you shock yourself? You have to be able to make insulators for anything electrical work. The voltmeter you suggested was possible would shock you too is it couldn't be put on an electrical circuit.

For that matter, why couldn't I make a gun and put in clips, firing those instead of making bullets with HP? I'm inclined to think that the creator of the power never thought of the option. It doesn't seem to overpower it by having to sit by the electrical outlet to avoid HP lose, or carrying around a clip or battery that can be stolen, lost ect. It would also be a solution for those poor bastards that roll this power and don't have 15 hp, so they can't get half the powers to work.

Clips on guns, sure. Power cord to power tools, probably not...your body works on DC and the energy has to flow through your body to get where it is going....batteries might work.

It seems like you could easily transform a finger into a power cord, but then you would effectively be sticking your finger into an electrical outlet. I think this would only be a viable option for characters with the power to absorb, conduct, or rechannel electricity.

Actually, I don't know why the book doesn't mention using electrical powers to fuel such devices in the first place, but it's possible that the designers' intent for the power was that motorized devices are fueled by the superbeing's "life energy" rather than electricity.

I quite agree, usually the power tools you form are not electrical, no matter what they LOOK like.

[elecgraystone]

Transformers/power inverters are not tough to make and are part of a lot of cords themselves, so DC/AC isn't a problem. Ever see the big plugs on some power cables? That's it. I don't see much, if any, difference between clips, batteries and a power cord. ALL are letting you use your power without burning HP. (And it seems that HU doesn't seem to mind Six Gun avoiding burning his)

As to powertools, it said I can make an electric screwdriver right under the power. Why would an electric drill, saw, ect not be allowable? I fail to see anything at all in the power description about 'bio-energy'. I DO see electric.

[AlanGunhouse]

They probably meant to say a POWER screwdriver and the misprint got through editing. It happens all the time.

[elecgraystone]

*shrug* What they may possibly have meant doesn't really matter. What they said was electric screwdriver. Which means that unless they change the wording in a future edition or in the faq/errata, that electric motors can be made with the power for use with the machines they create. Taking that into account, that means the character can produce electricity. (you can't run an electric motor without electricity)

So in total it means this. With the power you can make a 100% electronic item that completely runs off of electricity. So an electric cord should be able to substitute outside electricity for the electricity normally created by burning off HP.

[AlanGunhouse]

As you said, it does not matter. The main question is how complex you can get, not if it can be done at all. As noted before, the human body can produce limited levels of electricity and even some forms of conductors and semi-conductors...it is the level of complexity that was questionable.

[elecgraystone]

As you said, it does not matter. The main question is how complex you can get, not if it can be done at all. As noted before, the human body can produce limited levels of electricity and even some forms of conductors and semi-conductors...it is the level of complexity that was questionable.

#1 the body doesn't HAVE to be able to produce any of those things normally. It's an APS power. Does someone with APS limb: magma pull stone and heat it melting from his own body? No, so why should alter limb have to pull conductors and electricity from his?

#2 The level of complexity is in question? Not really. For once they spelled it out quite clearly. "Only a character with mechanical skills can turn his limbs into complex machines and motorized devices, otherwise the character must stick to comparatively basic and simple devices, including guns."

There might be an argument over what skills you need to make what item, but size would seem to be the only limitation with the correct skills.

[AlanGunhouse]

The level of complexity is in question? Not really. For once they spelled it out quite clearly. "Only a character with mechanical skills can turn his limbs into complex machines and motorized devices, otherwise the character must stick to comparatively basic and simple devices, including guns."

There might be an argument over what skills you need to make what item, but size would seem to be the only limitation with the correct skills.

Exactly what I meant, the level of complexity of the ELECTRONICS needs to be limited in a similar manner to "complex machines".

[elecgraystone]

Which would be only limited by the skill and imagination of the person using it.

[AlanGunhouse]

Which would be only limited by the skill and imagination of the person using it.

Yep, pretty much. Just be glad this power is not open to people with the Hardware: Analytic class...

[elecgraystone]

Which would be only limited by the skill and imagination of the person using it.

Yep, pretty much. Just be glad this power is not open to people with the Hardware: Analytic class...

It can be if you take the mega-hero options from rifter. Hardware: Analytic class/mutant with alter limbs. Sweet!

[AlanGunhouse]

Just remember, Rifters are not canon. It is up to the GM whether to use such things.

[elecgraystone]

LOL If you allow mega-heroes, I don't see any problem with the rifter options. While you'd have just about the ultimate in utility, you wouldn't match the raw power of a normal mega.

[AlanGunhouse]

I generally do not see the point of mega heroes. At best they are a bit more potent than your average character, but still not more than high middle power as far as comic book characters go. A character can be potent enough as it is, if well designed or just lucky with the rolls. Admittedly, they had a place before the PU books. PU 2 sort of makes the whole section obsolete. Still, I would agree that if you can have a "Mega Hero", there should be some way of combining other abilities to more closely emulate certain specific characters. Which Rifter issue was that in?

I sometimes think they chould call the game Heroes Limited, you simply can not do many characters that you could imagine, or who really exist in comics, some of whom are no more powerful.

[elecgraystone]

I can't comment about PU2 since I haven't been able to get that book yet. As to the rifter number, I'll look it up when I get home. I don't remember the issue offhand.

I know what you mean with the limited part. I've always thought other games had a much better way to make characters. Marvel's FASERIP was a perfect example. You could make up ANY character, from aunt may (spiderman's grandmother) to cosmic powerhouses like galactus and everything in between.

[AlanGunhouse]

A lot of games exist that can still do something similar. HU, on the other hand, is better than most games at creating random characters. A lot of other games are Point based and have no random tables at all to inspire those who have a block. I am the imaginative sort, I seldom have a block on character creation, but many people are limited in that respect.

I actually have always thought HU was one of the better low to mid power hero games. They simply do not get past that level of ability in general terms. If you want high end heroes, look elsewhere. If you assume heroes are rated on a power scale from 1 to 10, before mega heroes you were limited to possibly level 5, with them you might make it to level 7. That still leaves 3 levels of power completely off the HU charts.

[elecgraystone]

Rifter #37 for the expanded mega heroes.

[Tinker Dragoon]

This message has been moved to the Heroes Unlimited Forum, where the topic is more applicable and appropriate. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to deific.nmi@gmail.com, including the url to the post in question.

[elecgraystone]

To macksting, I'm curious how it's beyond canon. All canon says is that I can't fire energy bolts. So unless a taser fires energy bolts, it's not breaking canon. I don't even see why you'd need the EE:electricity to do it.

To Herald of Shadow, it could have said power tools to cover it generically. It didn't. I also don't see why gasoline (or electricity) couldn't power a chainsaw. We do have some canon of using outside things with this power. There is a NPC that uses outside ammo for his gun arm. Not seeing it as a big leap to say you can use outside fuel if you can use outside ammo. I'm not sure what the Conduct Electricity power all entails, but I'm sure it's more than creating physical conductors out of your body.

[Steeler49er]

Unfortunatily all of my posts on this thread wer deleted 2months ago, but if you'd have seen them you'da known that I was in complete juxtaposition to "elecgraystone" on his extream uses of/and "creative interpretation" of the Alter-Limbs Rules & text, However, after carefully looking over all the facts I've come to realize that if you go by the Rules "As Is", the power in effect allows you to not only alter the shape of your limbs (Polymorph but fer limbs only), it also allows you to alter the chemical and elemental structure of your limbs (and to a lesser extent, your body).

Based on this interpretation of the text, "elecgraystone" is right. FYI-for ChainSaws you should be able to convert HP into gas OR make it an electric chainsaw in alternative, And Taser Do work just like EE: Electricity.

[Steeler49er]

Like I said in the begining some many months ago, I Don't play it the way "elecgraystone" does with such a liberal interpritation of the wording as, I asked the PB staff 8+/- years ago if I could do all this crazy Shiznight with the power.

The staff mailed back with a big fat No. I asked First if both or either Alter-Limbs or Body Weapons actually turned into "Metal" as per the description of the metal ball example in the book. [Answere]: No! The limbs become Hard as Metal/steel but remain flesh, blood, bone and sinew.

I Next asked <in the same PM> if I could create electric motors or turn mu limbs into parachutes [Answere]: LOL silly! No. Again.

These and many more questions regarding the power wer all PM'ed to the writer(s) of the book at the same time and I got back the answere, But when asked again (for "Alan" and "elecgraystone") I never got back an answere... And since I am NOT a memebr of the PB staff, what I just wrote means Squat Diddly. So, since answeres no longer exist, I'd say "elecgraystone"'s answeres are just as valid as any other.
As to the supers body carring an electrical charge, if you play it that your limbs can truly APS-Whateveryoufeellike, than I seriously doubt that you body will get any kinda "shock' worth a spit since your "Jacketing" the wire with homemade insulator AND the Metal wire half of your equasion will just channel the shock to beginwith.

A point of mine DOES still exists, however, In that you can Not create and build any objects composed of separated components, you generaly may find some devices harder to make than others, But since you can create wheels on yer feet, it won't be too few.

[elecgraystone]

true, this power lets you go past making your finger into a dagger like shape, you actually turn your finger into metal. you can even go so far as making the dagger twist, but that doesn't mean you have made the soft iron core wrapped in very fine copper wire on an axis, moving around several electromagnets of similar design, powered by an electrical power souce of an outside origin, that has to be regulated by the body, as it's in all probability more voltage than the device was designed to utilize. another option is a self healing power (healing factor works great) or conduct electricity. if a character is able to conduct through his converted flesh, how much? if they can do it, what about APS metal? or water? those aren't listed.
as for the taser, it's true that it's concept is the same as EE electricity. a taser is designed to transmit damaging electricity directly into the flesh. the debilitating charge is just damage, therefore all EE Electric powers should do this? or all damaging powers in general? I mean they don't say it, but we can read between the lines to the extent that we get the most damage out of the powers as much as our rules lawyering abilities permit

Well, we know that the alter limb power can create energy. Siren and flashlight are two examples listed. So we look to see if alter limb can cause damage. Again, they can. So what is the limit? No energy BLASTS without EE. Done.

About transmitting damage, what about the gun limbs? Shooting causes heat and grabing a gun barrel after firing a bunch of shots will burn you. However the power doesn't do any damage from that. (even when using outside ammo) So it the body can produce heat insulators, why not electrical insulators?

Lastly, about tasers. If you look in the game they do NO damage. They are a simple device that causes a debilitating effect. EE only does damage. Difference is that Alter Limb lets you make a device out of your limb. A taser is just as valid as a flashlight. Both create energy.

[elecgraystone]

A chainsaw and a drill do damage and can be used in combat. Neither is a combat item. They can be used already. What's to stop you from making a flash pack and creating blinding light? A siren loud enough to deafen? Nothing as far as I can tell. Neither is an energy blast, the ONLY limit given for the uses of energy in 'motorized body parts'. You are the one putting a limit on combat uses macksting, not the power itself.

And just to make it clear, I'm the GM. I'm debating this from my reading and understanding of the rules. If one of my players has this power and takes all the right skills to make it work, why should I artificially limit his creative uses of the power?

[elecgraystone]

Please find me the Palladium combat stats of the electric drill. As an After the Bomb GM, I'm very interested in the damage and statistics of improvised weaponry.

Just look at the various tool appendages in the bionics source book. I've got chainsaw (d6X10), circular saw(1d4X10), small drill(1-3d6), welding torch (1-2d6) and nail gun (d4).

To Herald of Shadow, how can you actually not be a rules lawyer with rifts? It's all poorly structured wordings, bad copy/pastes, conveniently omitted wording in text, and entirely confusing representation of an abilities. Palladium seems to take a sick pleasure on making their games as vague as humanly possible. Add to that they very rarely make an official ruling to clear things up. It's not like I can actually tell how they really wanted it, so that's why I take the broadest but still reasonable reading of the text. And I'm not looking for approval, I've just been pointing out just what the ability actually allows and doesn't as it's written, IMO.

[elecgraystone]

Sorry, I don't know of this 'technoform' you speak of. (Last heroes unlimited bok I could affort was PU1) However, Alter limbs already lets you make tank treads legs and chainsaw hands. Quoting pg#240 HU "Each motorized body part (chainsaw, electric screwdriver, drill, flashlight, siren, ect.) <snip> Only a character with mechanical skills can turn his limbs into complex machines and motorized devices, otherwise the character must stick with comparatively basic and simple devises, including guns." And "The feet can be transformed into wheels while the feet and legs can be transformed into large wheels, small tank treads, and so on." So I'm not sure why adding 'technoform' would change what they can already do since it can already create complex machines and motorized devices.

[G]

I'm torn on if this is actually a good power or not. Without putting a lot of effort into this power (combining skills, EE & healing) it really doesn't compare to most of the other powers. I think we should be consider making this power into a minor - without the ability to produce electrical type items. So basically it would allow you to do gross things with your body

[elecgraystone]

I know what you are saying macksting. Stats would be nice, but I picked the tools in the multi-tool arm, figuring none could be HUGE items and all did SDC damage. If nothing else they should give you a rough base on damage. And being cautious is fine. If a GM wants to limit the power more than it actually says, that's fine. He's the GM, that's his job. I'm just debating this as it's written, which also happens to be how I play it.

First Herald of Shadow, I'm on a limited budget so getting more books in the near future is out. As far as 'creative interpretation', I'm not seeing it. Palladium printed an NPC that can use outside bullets when he uses this power with his gun arms. It was them that said that outside sources of power were ok, not me. If the player took all the skills to make a lightning rod and a solar deflector, why shouldn't he be able to make them. He put the skills into getting the most out of his power. The thing you are missing about the capacitor it the fact that APS metal can't make devices, Alter limbs can. It's not JUST about changing what your body is made of but forming it into something useful. You are adding things that isn't listed under powers (APS and deflect lasers or capacitor) while the uses for Alter limbs are in the power itself (create devises). Basically, if the player had the parts, the time and the skill to make the device on his own why shouldn't the character be able to do it with his limbs? So would you let a character make a lightning rod to ignore electrical attacks, a reflector to deflect lasers or a capacitor to absorb electrical attacks? If yes, then why not the alter limb guy? if no, then why would he be different and be able to do it?

[elecgraystone]

The higher damage drills fit in fine for larger drills. Some of the two handed drills would indeed do the 2d6 or 3d6. (Having used them, there should be some hefty minuses to attack) In After the bomb, some of the bigger mutants could use those heavier drills with little problem though.

See, I look at the powers the other way. I start with the broader interpretations and work my way in if needed. Why limit myself and my players by forcing myself read the power in another light?

While they do come up with some crazy stuff for NPC, it lets me understand how they use the rules and gives my a look into their thoughts. The fact is they thought it was fine for a canon character to be able to use the gun power of alter limbs without using HP by carrying ammo. It makes perfect sense that alter limbs SHOULD be able to do this IMO. If a character carries around batteries, gas and ammo or plugs in, what's the harm? Plugging in means you are stationary. Carrying gas, batteries and ammo is dangerous, makes them vulnerable to theft and weighs them down. It's far from a free ride. This also prevents people from always wanting regeneration powers JUST so they can use their alter limbs for a bit. If a player wants to play a hacker that makes a computer out of his arm, plugs his portable hard drive in and starts programing why should he NEED to regenerate if he wants to use it for more than a few minutes? The plugs right there.

[Steeler49er]

Please find me the Palladium combat stats of the electric drill. As an After the Bomb GM, I'm very interested in the damage and statistics of improvised weaponry.

Your kidding...Right? Tell me you didn't just say this!
If your looking for the rules though... It's called "Common Sence"-By Kevin Siembieda, Maryann, Wayne, Zeleznik, CJ Carrella and GOD!

Why can I imagine a burgler breaking into your home with a power drill and going to kill you with it. And as he's got you on the floor and is ready to bore a Hole through your head I can see you stopping him cold by saying "WAIT.... I Get to make my saving throw roll first, and you need to roll to strike..."

Image, him <The Killer> pausing out of a "wuhu" like confusion, and in your left hand you let roll onto the floor a Twenty-sider!
Game rules fer a drill...indeed

All that said and done, you can't tell me I'm wrong in being cautious. You're a tad bit excitable when you find something to exploit, and I find that unnerving in a player or a GM.

FYI-I'm just being silly with you... I do Not agree with "elecgraystone" about his interpritation of Alter-Limbs as I DO know you can't do All the things he's quoted as saying you can do with the power, as I DID get an official answere (as I've said innumerable times) from PB saying No! But I also said that it doesn't matter as it was official to me and Not to anyone else, and therefor means nothing. Only an official ruling from PB would matter, and I have No problems with "elecgraystone"'s creativity with the power.

In fact, I think it's kinda neet. His arguements have given me much thought and, thanx to this debate, I've been playing a super cool Halcyon Mutant with Alter-limbs fer the last week, and having fun.

[Steeler49er]

I think that combining alter limbs with technoform would give you the result you're looking for. Instead of being limited with turning yourself into a car or a forklift, I would rule that combined with alter limbs it would give you the ability to turn your limbs into the complex electronic/technical devices that you're speaking of.

???
No, that would be the same as combining Polymorph and Shapeshifting to get a better shapeshifter... But reading the rules for Polymorph you'll see that you can Not take on ANY thing resembeling a life form (Even an american flags pole with a brass bald eagle on top). So sure, the two seem good together, but you just cant' Mix them to create hybreeds of shapechnaging and polymorph. No stone statues of david...etc.

The same goes fer APS: Mecha form & AlterLimbs. Since (BY THE RULES ) you can't use two APS powers together, which Both alter limbs and Technoform are.

I mean, you could turn your legs into tank treads and your hands into chainsaws.

elecgraystone is correct, You can already Alter-Limb your limbs to do both of those things with the Alter-limbs power (as stated in the text). You don't need Technoform for it. As technoform is writen, you couldn't do much with such a combination if you did allow it.

[Steeler49er]

BTW-If this stuff is reposting, the net is acting carzy fer me to day...
Real weird.