Bought a copy of Shadows of Light

[Big Red]

(thanks to Warwolf & Danger for your feedback, btw)

I ordered a used copy for $30, which I figured was a great deal compared to some of the other prices I'd seen online. A couple things in it look interesting, others not so much, although being somewhat of a completist, I'm glad to have bought it.

One big issue I have with it, though, has nothing to do with the book itself. I ordered it from one of the larger online RPG shops, and it was listed as being in VF+ condition. When I got it, it was anything but. The covers are completely covered in clear packing tape, there's a piece of black electrical tape on the inside front cover, the pages (especially the edges) are severely yellowed, dirty and worn, many of the interior pages are even dirtier, and there are pencil marks in the table of contents and several spots throughout the book. Now, I wouldn't consider returning it just because I'm not likely to find a copy much cheaper, but I'm extremely disappointed with the retailer. I've ordered from them several times before without issue, but this will really give me pause should I ever consider ordering from them again.

[Big Red]

Contact the retailer and express your problems to them?

I thought about that, but I don't want to return the book, and I'm not overly upset about the price. I don't necessarily care about the condition of my books as long as they're usable (my TMNT books are really worn), but it bugs me that they said VF+ and it was anything but that. I still have 15-16 books I want to get, so I'll likely just buy them elsewhere and not send any more money their way.

[Lord Malachdrim]

Now I'm curious as to which guy you ordered this from. I can't remember if naming them is against the policy of these boards, (haven't looked at it since I joined the first time) so if it is could you PM it to me.

Thanks.

[Big Red]

Just contact them with your complaint and tell them you do not want a refund, but to make them aware of their incorrect labeling. Then tell them you will no longer be a customer of theirs because of it.

I decided to send them a quick note about the order and looked up my confirmation email to make sure I had all the details straight. The description in the confirmation email was slightly different than what was on the website when I ordered:

Product Title: World Book #4 - Shadows of Light
Manufacturer: Palladium
Product Line: Nightbane
Condition: Fair+
Quantity: 1
Price Each: $30.00

Even with the "revised" grading from the email (I'll have to search to see if I printed off the order confirmation from the website, which still listed it as VF+), I think it's over-graded. I don't think a complaint to them would be overly productive, based on the email. I'll let my wallet (and the fact that I've already deleted them from my Favorites) speak for me.

**Edit**
P.S. When I ordered the book, I had a long talk with my wife about it, and one of the main reasons I was able to justify paying $30 for a used gaming book was the listed condition (which I pointed out to her emphatically numerous times before she agreed not to complain for more than a few days), so it's not a case of me misreading the listing. I also had to give her a long lecture on condition grading to make sure she understood what I was talking about, and the entire ordeal is etched clearly in my brain.

[Lenwen]

I am not trying to defend a company that sounds like they dooped ya my friend but flat out you have to put things into perspective ..

A- Out of Print Book ..
B- Last book of a nearly dead line ..
C- Extreamly hard to find
D- Extreamly Controversial book .

To me yeah they could have actually told you what the book looked like prior to your purchase but in my opinion they think they were justified with the price due to the listed A-D scenario ..

just my two cp's worth ..

[Big Red]

I'm not upset about the price, just the grossly inaccurate grading, and now the bait-and-switch they did with the grading in the email. I probably would have still bought it had it been listed as Fair+ (which is still a real stretch), mainly because, after shipping, it was roughly half the price of the next cheapest copy I'd found. However, I can't justify giving that particular store any more of my money.

[Warwolf]

I'm glad you managed to find one for a decent price.

[MASTERMIND]

If you don't at least let them know why there will be no impact. A quick message saying the initial listing quality was not what you received is all that is needed. You did get a good deal but not getting what you thought you were paying for is always an issue a business should take seriously.

I don't think you are out of line letting them know there was an issue. For all we know it was an honest mistake and they will apologize, then try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[Big Red]

I decided to file a complaint. I'll let you know if I receive a response.

[Big Red]

Got the following early this morning:

Well I'm certainly disappointed that your so unhappy with your purchase.

I hate contesting an email such as this but we have never, in our history, had a VG+ copy of this book in stock. A Fair+ copy would be considered by our grading scale "very well used." This book is currently out of print and much in demand by gamers of the system so I do not believe $30.00 is out of line for such a title in said condition. That said, I do value your business, and considering your unhappiness with the product I have put you down for a $5 discount off your next purchase, should you choose to use us again. I know its not a lot but you have indicated you would like to keep the book so I believe a total of $25 for this book is more in line.

I was thinking the grade was VF+, but didn't realize until looking at their grading code that it had been VG+. According to their website, VG = "Very Good. Used. May have medium sized creases, scuff marks, very small stain, etc. Complete and very useable." As I pointed out, both covers were wrapped in packing tape, there was electrical tape on the inside front cover, yellowed and very dirty pages and pencil marks throughout. One thing I mentioned in my complaint but hadn't mentioned here was that the book stinks, kind of a mix between very strong BO, bleach and vinegar. Also, the last page was ripped out and glued to the back cover. Their definitions for Fair and Poor are:

Fair Very well used, but complete and useable. May have flaws such as tears, pen marks or highlighting, large creases, stains, marks, a loose map, etc.
Poor Extremely well used and has major flaws, which may be too numerous to mention. Item is complete unless noted.

I'd personally consider wrapping an entire book in tape to be a major flaw. The smell is nearly an affront to humanity, especially when the humidity's a bit higher than normal. Needless to say, despite their noble offer, I won't be redeeming the $5 credit.

[NovenTheHero]

I paid cover price for my copy (although I bought it the day it also came out)

[Big Red]

In light of the negativity I experienced with the other company, I do feel obliged to post about a good experience. I ordered the new Robotech book from Stiggybaby.com, plus a couple TMNT books. They told me that Transdimensional was out of stock and offered to either send something else, or just give a refund. I chose a higher-priced HU book and asked what I needed to do to approve the additional charges. They told me that because of a couple other delays that had already happened, and because Robotech had gone out of stock while dealing with these other issues, they'd send me the higher-priced book without charging me the difference (nearly $7 difference). I've always had good luck with Stiggybaby.com, but this was exceptional service and will keep me returning to them in the future.

[Specter]

I am not trying to defend a company that sounds like they dooped ya my friend but flat out you have to put things into perspective ..

A- Out of Print Book ..
B- Last book of a nearly dead line ..
C- Extreamly hard to find
D- Extreamly Controversial book .

To me yeah they could have actually told you what the book looked like prior to your purchase but in my opinion they think they were justified with the price due to the listed A-D scenario ..

just my two cp's worth ..

Controversial? Why was it controversial?

[Aramanthus]

I want to know also why you consider it a controversial book. I'm glad I have a copy of it.

Big Red, there has to be a method for getting rid of the smell. I think airing it out will help cut the stench! I'm sorry to hear that the company you purchased it from had a misleading labels on their website.

[Rallan]

Controversial? Why was it controversial?

I think "controversial" is a polite way of saying "not popular with the fans".

[Specter]

It was popular with me it was a decent book

[Specter]

I never did a lot of versus playtesting but I always figured the Anathos were something that the Nightbane would be on equal ground fighting. Any difference in power level is changed by the Nightbane's constant regeneration to the Anathos only regenerating while resting. Least.... that's how I figure it.

[NovenTheHero]

I sold my copy yesterday for $20.

[Aramanthus]

I like my copy. I never heard about the non palladium artist. I guess everybody sees things differently!

[Warwolf]

the Author and the artists went 3rd party company.

What? The cover was done by Scott Johnson. Granted, he does work exclusively for Marvel now, but from what I understand Palladium owns the rights to all of the images he did for them until he moved on (like that cover and the Glitter Boy in Flames).

Shadows of Light didn't sell well, and it didn't particularly fit the setting that well. Those were the main reasons it was discontinued.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

the Author and the artists went 3rd party company.

What? The cover was done by Scott Johnson. Granted, he does work exclusively for Marvel now, but from what I understand Palladium owns the rights to all of the images he did for them until he moved on (like that cover and the Glitter Boy in Flames).

Shadows of Light didn't sell well, and it didn't particularly fit the setting that well. Those were the main reasons it was discontinued.

And Scott Johnson is still very much a friend of Kevin and a supporter of the company - he just happens to have an exclusive right now (IIRC), which means he won't be doing much Palladium art for the time being.

~ Josh

[Steeler49er]

Frankly, the initial reason the book turned me off was the comment made by one of the writers <likely you Josh> when asked by another poster
"What do you like best about Nightbane".
To which the reply was
"Everything but the Nightbane themselves".

To which I said, No way am I gonna buy a book from a writer who likely came from another game system and said to themselves, "How can I make Nightspawn more like My game and less like Nightspawn". However, I hate never giving a book a read through so as to be Non-partel in my actual rating of said product, and though I found it to Not feel to very Nightspawnish, it was still very well written just the same. Mostly though is that I felt The Athanatos over-shadowed the Nightbane and felt out of place.

HOWEVER, I still liked the Athanatos and felt palladium should have given the books another go, but this time with the Athanatos being the stars in their Own alternate stand-alone dimension with their Own personal villian. The book would have made such an Awsome alternate reality with the Nightbane and others races (including the Ba'al and dark day) being off to the side. Better would have been that Dark Day never happens in this reality (as that is Ohhh sooo much more a place for the Nighspawn who are forever connected to the Nightlands), rather some major other force could be making a power play for earth.

In this latter case, Josh could feel free to own that paticular universe and would have free rain ad nauseum per la gioia. I'd have loved to see this. The book got 2.3/5 Vs. Nightspawns 4.5 rating, due to it's lacking of a connective feel with the rest of the world. But as a stand alone I felt it was a breath of freash air for palladium and would likely give it a 4+/- if it ever goes this way.

As such, Palladium should pick it Back up and run with the ball. It's still a good book.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Frankly, the initial reason the book turned me off was the comment made by one of the writers <likely you Josh> when asked by another poster
"What do you like best about Nightbane".
To which the reply was
"Everything but the Nightbane themselves".

To which I said, No way am I gonna by a book from a writer who likely came from another game system and said to themselves, "How can I make Nightspawn more like My game". However, I hate never giving a book a read through so as to be Non-partel in my actual rating of said product, and though I found it to Not feel to very Nightspawnish, it was still very well written just the same. Mostly though is that I felt The Athanatos over-shadowed the Nightbane and felt out of place.

HOWEVER, I still liked the Athanatos and felt palladium should have given the books another go, but this time with the Athanatos being the stars in their Own alternate stand-alone dimension with their Own personal villian. The book would have made such an Awsome alternate reality with the Nightbane and others races (including the Ba'al and dark day) being off to the side. Better would have been that Dark Day never happens in this reality (as that is Ohhh sooo much more a place for the Nighspawn who are forever connected to the Nightlands), rather some major other force could be making a power play for earth.

In this latter case, Josh could feel free to own that paticular universe and would have free rain ad nauseum per la gioia. I'd have loved to see this. The book got 2.3/5 Vs. Nightspawns 4.5 rating, due to it's lacking of a connective feel with the rest of the world. But as a stand alone I felt it was a breath of freash air for palladium and would likely give it a 4+/- if it ever goes this way.

As such, Palladium should pick it Back up and run with the ball. It's still a good book.

I never said that.

I'm not even going to ask you to provide a link because I am 100% sure that I never said that.

I had nothing whatsoever to do with the writing or production of Shadows of Light. In fact, I hadn't even been published in the Rifter at the point.

~ Josh

[Steeler49er]

Ah, sorry, mixed you up fer Jason Vey who wrote it... My bad.
But you gotta admit, Shadows woulda been a great new book line.. Eh?

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

So then why did you say "likely you, Josh."?



It just struck me as being out of left field.

~ Josh

[Steeler49er]

See my edit above ↑

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Don't worry. No big deal.

It just struck me as odd (especially as I haven't been active much on the Interweb lately). Thus I was more confused than offended.

~ Josh

EDIT: And just to clarify in case someone misinterprets what I just wrote, I was not in anyway offended by being mistaken for Jason Vey, or as the author of SoL (wow, bad acronymn). That's not where the WT factor came from.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[Library Ogre]

Frankly, the initial reason the book turned me off was the comment made by one of the writers <likely you Josh> when asked by another poster
"What do you like best about Nightbane".
To which the reply was
"Everything but the Nightbane themselves".

As Josh said, that wasn't him. I'll cleanly own up to it; my least favorite thing about Nightbane is the Nightbane. Their mysterious origins leave them the least connected aspect of the universe... the Guardians are mysterious forces for good, but their mystery gives them hooks. The mystery of the Nightbane just feels flat to me. I also don't write for Nightbane, because I'm not terribly fond of the main characters. I like several of the ancillary character types (especially the normal humans, and characters like the Acolyte), and Through the Glass Darkly is a fantastic book.

But I don't like the Nightbane.

[Specter]

I thought Shadows works well for Nightbane. I like the bane better than the Anathos and they seem far too similar for my liking. But, I like them as an alternative for my players... who want something powerful but don't like the randomness.

[Aramanthus]

Thank you for the update! I appreciate the information!

[Zenvis]

(thanks to Warwolf & Danger for your feedback, btw)

I ordered a used copy for $30, which I figured was a great deal compared to some of the other prices I'd seen online. A couple things in it look interesting, others not so much, although being somewhat of a completist, I'm glad to have bought it.

30 bucks you must be kidding me. and used

Thats nothing! On Amazon they want a used copy of Rifts Naruni source book for $40 bucks and thats still in print.

[Specter]

Frankly, the initial reason the book turned me off was the comment made by one of the writers <likely you Josh> when asked by another poster
"What do you like best about Nightbane".
To which the reply was
"Everything but the Nightbane themselves".

As Josh said, that wasn't him. I'll cleanly own up to it; my least favorite thing about Nightbane is the Nightbane. Their mysterious origins leave them the least connected aspect of the universe... the Guardians are mysterious forces for good, but their mystery gives them hooks. The mystery of the Nightbane just feels flat to me. I also don't write for Nightbane, because I'm not terribly fond of the main characters. I like several of the ancillary character types (especially the normal humans, and characters like the Acolyte), and Through the Glass Darkly is a fantastic book.

But I don't like the Nightbane.

I like the Nightbane... they are my favorite. I think of them as the revenge of the Formless ones... their ghost in corporal form.

[Warwolf]

As Josh said, that wasn't him. I'll cleanly own up to it; my least favorite thing about Nightbane is the Nightbane. Their mysterious origins leave them the least connected aspect of the universe... the Guardians are mysterious forces for good, but their mystery gives them hooks. The mystery of the Nightbane just feels flat to me. I also don't write for Nightbane, because I'm not terribly fond of the main characters. I like several of the ancillary character types (especially the normal humans, and characters like the Acolyte), and Through the Glass Darkly is a fantastic book.

But I don't like the Nightbane.

Not connected? I don't see how you reach that conclusion. Of course, I still have to run my true mythos by Kevin, but believe me when I say they are as connected as any of the other players (as long as Kev approves my concept).

Then again, you might see some more tie-in material on their origins in the next book... call it a hunch.

[Aramanthus]

Sounds pretty interestin Warwolf! Are we going to get any teasers?

[Warwolf]

Sounds pretty interestin Warwolf! Are we going to get any teasers?

I'm no expert, but I think that may have been one.

As far as more detailed stuff. I'm waiting to see what Kev thinks.

[Misfit KotLD]

Sounds pretty interestin Warwolf! Are we going to get any teasers?

I'm no expert, but I think that may have been one.

As far as more detailed stuff. I'm waiting to see what Kev thinks.

I heard he thinks you need a flea bath.

And get those teasers and such out.

[Aramanthus]

If you can tease us as it gets written we'll be happy! But just knowing some source books coming in the near future.

[Warwolf]

If you can tease us as it gets written we'll be happy! But just knowing some source books coming in the near future.

I think you may have missed the memo... the manuscript has been done for almost a year now.

I am one of the co-writers of the "Nightbane Survival Guide," the only Nightbane sourcebook currently on the release schedule.

[Misfit KotLD]

If you can tease us as it gets written we'll be happy! But just knowing some source books coming in the near future.

I think you may have missed the memo... the manuscript has been done for almost a year now.

I am one of the co-writers of the "Nightbane Survival Guide," the only Nightbane sourcebook currently on the release schedule.

Unlike Aten, Mark writes with the crayons. Brandon eats them.

[Library Ogre]

If you can tease us as it gets written we'll be happy! But just knowing some source books coming in the near future.

I think you may have missed the memo... the manuscript has been done for almost a year now.

I am one of the co-writers of the "Nightbane Survival Guide," the only Nightbane sourcebook currently on the release schedule.

Unlike Aten, Mark writes with the crayons. Brandon eats them.

Now, now, now. Brandon doesn't eat crayons... he can't get the paper off.

[Misfit KotLD]

If you can tease us as it gets written we'll be happy! But just knowing some source books coming in the near future.

I think you may have missed the memo... the manuscript has been done for almost a year now.

I am one of the co-writers of the "Nightbane Survival Guide," the only Nightbane sourcebook currently on the release schedule.

Unlike Aten, Mark writes with the crayons. Brandon eats them.

Now, now, now. Brandon doesn't eat crayons... he can't get the paper off.

You obviously haven't seen him bully Hilden into removing the wrappers first.

[Aramanthus]

Awesome Warwolf! Thank you for the update too! I did notice that. I just didn't notice it was partially yours!

[Warwolf]

Awesome Warwolf! Thank you for the update too! I did notice that. I just didn't notice it was partially yours!

It's been kept under wraps until recently, so its no wonder you didn't catch it. But yeah, if you want a sneak peek at my writing style you can check out the pieces in Rifter #35 and #39 or my short story "Casualties of War" in the Chi-Town Anthologies.

[Aramanthus]

I've got all of those! I have to read the Anthology book, but I've finished both Rifter articles! Congrats!

[Daniel Stoker]

Awesome Warwolf! Thank you for the update too! I did notice that. I just didn't notice it was partially yours!

It's been kept under wraps until recently, so its no wonder you didn't catch it. But yeah, if you want a sneak peek at my writing style you can check out the pieces in Rifter #35 and #39 or my short story "Casualties of War" in the Chi-Town Anthologies.

Heh Warwolf, I have to say that was one of the top 3 or so stories int he Chi-Town Anthologies.


Daniel Stoker

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Wow? So Going Home was your number 2 pick and your number 1 pick?



~ Josh

[Warwolf]

Heh Warwolf, I have to say that was one of the top 3 or so stories int he Chi-Town Anthologies.

Hey, I appreciate that, Daniel. Thanks for supporting our new endeavors into creative fiction as well. Here's hoping there will be much more to come (I'm writing some Nightbane fiction for my creative writing class in the coming weeks).

Aramanthus, don't miss out on the book. I know I enjoyed reading it and seeing what my colleagues came up with.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm still kinda split between that and the Brothers Perez.


Daniel Stoker

[Aramanthus]

I have to read that book. At least I own it. It just has to wait it's turn to be read.

[Aramanthus]

I personally don't know. But I think on the other thread which is right here in this area of the forum someone answered that one. I think it had several strikes against it. Including not being popular, and the artist was hired by a comic company.