Martial Arts in Rifts should not be as obscure as advertised

[Ten Tigers]

I have heard many times over that martial arts in general are rare in the world of Rifts as all this ancient knowledge has been lost. Personally I think this is hogwash.

Why do people think that the martial arts are such a complex thing? Hell, MAGIC is FAR more complex to learn and would have a far greater washout rate. Yet not only may humans learn magic, they can create their own spells.

How far of a stretch of the imagination would it be that people would start creating new martial arts from scratch? It's human nature to take combat to the next level. In fact if you research real world human history, most martial arts evolved from times of turmoil and desperation, not because man was in a golden age.

Taking this into consideration, not only would new martial arts develop and flourish, they would not be too dissimilar from modern martial arts. After all, human physiology has not changed in the world of Rifts. Physics remain the same as does the way the human body functions. It is all too reasonable that forms very similar to Kick Boxing, Judo, and other forms we recognize today would be invented just as they were in ancient earth.

Discuss...

[Library Ogre]

I'm going to assume you mean various unarmed forms of combat here, and not just "martial arts" as a broad term... because the martial arts, in Rifts, do continue to evolve. They're those skills called Robot Combat: Elite, which allow you to use integrated weapons systems as part of your attacks.

I imagine the unarmed combat disciplines of Rifts are substantially different from today. Kicks and punches are not going to be high on the list of things for most people to learn; much high will be unbalancing manuevers (trips, throws) and joint locks/pins. The unbalancing maneuvers are effective against anyone... I may not be able to DAMAGE the MDC monstrosity barreling down on me, but I may have a chance of using, but I may be able to redirect him.

[Ten Tigers]

I have some running around to do but I will be back to debate this further...

[Blight]

In our game we have a small town that grew up around a MA school (Enshin Karate) just out side old Denver. The leader of the town is the direct decedent of Kancho (Grandmaster) Joko Ninomiya. There other bastion of humanity near military bases. (Training passed down) We even have a Shaolin temple on the outside what used to be Las Vegas. (look it up there is one there). So yes i see no problem with communities based around a MA school.

[JTwig]

I have heard many times over that martial arts in general are rare in the world of Rifts as all this ancient knowledge has been lost. Personally I think this is hogwash.

Why do people think that the martial arts are such a complex thing? Hell, MAGIC is FAR more complex to learn and would have a far greater washout rate. Yet not only may humans learn magic, they can create their own spells.

How far of a stretch of the imagination would it be that people would start creating new martial arts from scratch? It's human nature to take combat to the next level. In fact if you research real world human history, most martial arts evolved from times of turmoil and desperation, not because man was in a golden age.

Taking this into consideration, not only would new martial arts develop and flourish, they would not be too dissimilar from modern martial arts. After all, human physiology has not changed in the world of Rifts. Physics remain the same as does the way the human body functions. It is all too reasonable that forms very similar to Kick Boxing, Judo, and other forms we recognize today would be invented just as they were in ancient earth.

Discuss...

I've often wondered the same thing. If magic, which hasn't been around (in the game) for thousands of years could be rediscovered/created why couldn't martial art. Especially forms that allowed you to take damage (either by converting you to M.D.C. or surrounding you in an M.D.C. field) and inflict M.D. Make the character a variation of the mages, only using P.P.E. to increase their physical capabilities instead of bending reality.

I was working on my own custom setting a while back, and was coming up with my own unique magic O.C.C.s and I included Martial Artist as part of it. I'll see if I can find the write up and post it.

Found it! Some of the terms maybe confusing as I was trying to come up with an alternative experience point system; a systems were you spent your ex to develop skills and O.C.C. abilities.

Martial Artist O.C.C.

Martial Artist Abilities:
1. Sense Ley Lines and Magic Energy: The martial artist can see and feel the presence of magic. All the following sensing abilities are automatic powers and do not require the expenditure of P.P.E.
a. Sense Ley Lines: The martial artist is able to feel whether there is a ley line with the area of his sensing ability, 10 miles per caster level, and can tell whether it is near or far. She can also follow the feeling to locate the ley line at a base skill level of 30%.
b. Sense Ley Line Nexus: Once the ley line has been found, the martial artist can follow the ley line to as many nexus points as it intersects at a base skill level of 40%.
c. Sense Rifts: The martial artist will automatically feel the sensation of a rift opening anywhere within a 50-mile radius, +10 miles per caster level. Although she cannot tell exactly where this rift is, the sorcerer will know whether it is near or far, big or small.
d. Sense Magic in Use: The expenditure of P.P.E. in the form of a spell, artifact, or special ability can be felt, is not seen, up to 100 feet away per caster level. The martial artist will not know the location nor be able to trace it, but he will feel its energy and know that magic is being used in the area.
e. See Magic Energy: The martial artist can see magic energy/P.P.E. radiating from people, creatures, objects, and areas, as long as there is more than 20 P.P.E. points present. The sensing ability is so acute that the character can see things made invisible by magic, martial arts, and special abilities.
2. Ley Line Drifting: The martial artist can open herself to the ley line energies and walk or float through the air along the length of the ley line. The speed factor is a mere 10, but it is relaxing and requires no exertion.
3. Ley Line Rejuvenation: The martial artist can absorb ley line energies to double his rate of healing. To do this, the character must concentrate and relax on the ley line, letting the mystic energy fill him and heal him over a period of two days. The martial artist can also perform an instant rejuvenation as often as once every 24-hours at the site of a ley line. After about ten minutes of concentration, the character is completely rested, alert, and has 2d6 hit points and 2d6 S.D.C. restored.
4. Martial Arts Form: The main focus of the martial artists is her pursuit of both physical and spiritual master of a particular martial arts for. The martial artist begins with the basic katas of a martial arts form of the player’s choice.
5. Additional Martial Arts Forms: Once the martial artist has completely mastered all the kantas of their beginning form they may start upon the path of a second mastery at the normal experience cost. No martial artist may learn more than two martial arts forms.
6. Initial Spell Knowledge: Due to their focus on martial arts over traditional spell casting, the martial artist begins with limited spell knowledge. The martial artist begins play knowing a total of four spells, chosen from level one.
7. Learning Knew Spells: The martial artist may learn new spells at anytime, from any level equal to or less than their caster level at normal experience costs. Most only learn a handful of additional spells, instead focusing on the mastering of their chosen martial art forms.
Bonuses:
+1 to strike, parry, and dodge when unarmored.
+2 initiative when unarmored.
Recognize Martial Arts Form (+25%): Same as Recognize Weapon Quality, but applies only to martial arts forms. This skill not only allows the martial artist to recognize a particular form, but also allows the martial artist to look for flaws in the practitioner’s style. This later ability requires at least one minute (four full melee rounds) of uninterrupted observation by the character. This means that it can not be used while engaged in combat.
Base S.D.C. of 30.
Base P.P.E. of 1d6x10+PE, Martial Artist have the lowest starting pool of any practitioner of magic.
Base Reputation 10%. This is a special skill that does not increase normally; instead it is increased by the GM when ever she feels the PC has done something to warrant an increase. The GM should remember to add situational modifiers (both positive and negative) to the PC’s percentage. Its uses are left up to the GM, but it can easily be used to impress/intimidate others, gain discounts or information, and many other uses limited only by the player’s imagination and GM’s rulings.
Martial Artist O.C.C.:
Attribute Requirements: ME, PE, and PP of 12 or higher. A high PS is also recommended, but not required.
Alignment: Any.
Race: Any.
O.C.C. Skills:
Native Language 98%; and one of choice (+15%)
Acrobatics (+10%)
Running
Lore: Ley Lines & P.P.E. (+10%)
W.P. two of choice
Hand-to-Hand: Martial Arts; Martial Arts can not be upgraded or changed.
O.C.C. Related Skills: The Martial Artist may select four additional skills with the limitations, and bonuses listed below.
Communications: Radio – Basic only (+5%).
Domestic: Any (+15%).
Electrical: Basic Electronics only (+5%).
Espionage: Wilderness Survival only (+10%).
Mechanical: Basic Mechanics only (+5%).
Medical: Paramedic and Holistic Medicine only (+10%).
Military: Any.
Physical: Any (+15%)
Piloting: Any (+5%).
Piloting Related: Any (+5%).
Rogue: Any (+10%).
Science: Any (+5%).
Technical: Any (+5%).
Weapon Proficiencies: Any.
Wilderness: Any (+5%).
Secondary Skills: The character may choose four additional skills, limited as above. These skills receive absolutely no bonuses, other than possible IQ bonuses.
Standard Equipment: The character begins with two quality, but unexceptional, weapon of choice (be sure to check weapon compatibility with chosen martial arts form). For armor the player may choose any type of light armor. The Martial Artist also receives a normal quality horse.

For Rifts I would do away with a lot of the Ley Line/Sorcerer abilities (they were relevant to the setting I was creating).

Here is also the beginnings of a martial arts forms I was developing. My setting was S.D.C., but this could give someone some ideas for a Rifts setting.

Shattering Ice Style
Shattering Ice Style is one of the many martial arts forms based on the movements and strengths of an element. In this case the element is ice, and it was developed by the monks of the XXXXXX monastery as they charted the movements of the great northern glaciers. It has since spread across the entire realm, and is one of the most practice forms of martial arts in existence (rivaled only by Fire Lord Style). Teachers can be found anywhere from the Elven Homelands all the way to the Dominion’s capital of Arcadia, though most martial artist in the Dominion prefer the more aggressive Fire Lord Style.
Bonuses: +15 S.D.C., +10 P.P.E., Resistant to Cold (half damage and duration of cold based attacks), and suffers no penalties when fighting on unstable ice or snow.
Limitations: Shattering Ice Style can not be used when armor is being worn, and may only be used with small bladed weapons no bigger than a short sword (2d4 damage).
Starting Katas: Morning Frost Form, and Flying Ice Shard Strike.

1. Morning Frost Form: By channeling P.P.E. into her hands, forearms, shins, and feet of the martial artist forming a thin, but durable layer of ice that allows her to parry weapons without worry of taking damage, and increase the damage of her own unarmed strikes.
Prerequisites: None.
Damage: +1d4 per level purchased.
Range: Self.
S.D.C.: The frost shields provides 20 S.D.C., plus 10 per each additional level purchased, and the form ends as soon as all the S.D.C. is depleted even if time is left on its duration. It can re reactivated immediately (at no action cost) for the full P.P.E. cost.
Attacks: One.
Duration: One melee per level purchased.
P.P.E. Cost: 15.
Experience Cost: None if this is the Martial Artist’s initial form. 1000 experience for each additional level. If this is a secondary form it cost 2000 experience for the first level of this kata, but 1000 for each additional level.

2. Flying Ice Shard Strike: By focusing her P.P.E. into the palm of her hand, the martial artist performs an open hand strike in the direction of the target. From the palm of the hand travels a shard of ice roughly the size of a dagger, which strikes the target with supernatural force.
Prerequisites: Morning Frost Form.
Damage: 3d4, plus 1d4 for every level purchased.
Range: Five feet, plus five feet for every level purchased.
Attacks: One.
Duration: Instant.
P.P.E. Cost: 7 per strike.
Experience Cost: None if this is the Martial Artist’s initial form. 300 experience for each additional level. 500 to purchase this kata for the first time as part of a secondary form, and 300 for each additional level.

3. Ice Shard Kick: This sweeping snap kick that trails behind it a tide of rushing ice, and snow that strikes a target with crushing strength of an avalanche.
Prerequisites: Morning Frost Form, and Flying Ice Shard Strike x2.
Damage: 3d6, plus 1d6 per level purchased.
Range: Melee.
Attacks: One.
Duration: Instant.
P.P.E. Cost: 6 per strike.
Experience Cost: 500 for the first level purchased, and 300 for each additional level.

4. Freezing Limb Strike: The martial artists strikes an opponents limb or weapon, immobilizing it in a block of ice. Limbs become unresponsive, and weapons to heavy and off balance to use. If used on an opponent’s head they suffer the normal penalties for blindness and suffocation; its duration means it is not usually fatal.
Prerequisites: Morning Frost Form.
Damage: None.
Range. Melee.
S.D.C.: The ice block has 10 S.D.C. per level purchased, and completely vanishes once the duration ends. If the S.D.C. of the ice is depleted then the duration automatically ends, and the limb becomes usable once again.
Attacks: One.
Duration: Two actions, pulse one per level purchased.
P.P.E. Cost: 8 per strike.
Experience Cost: 500 for the first level purchased, and 300 for each additional level purchased.

5. Unmoving Glacier Stance: By stomping her feet on the ground and entering this stance the martial artist is able to channel P.P.E. into her legs, forming ice that root her to the ground. While so rooted the martial artist is immune to knock back, knock down, pickup attacks, and can not be moved from her location.
Prerequisites: Ice Shard Kick, and Freezing Limb Stance.
Damage: None.
Range: Self.
Attacks: Two; the first is used by the martial artist to stomp her feet into the ground, and the second is when the ice forms rooting her in place.
Duration: One melee per level purchased.
P.P.E. Cost: 8.
Experience Cost: 600 for the first level purchased, and 350 for each additional level purchased.

6. Avalanche Strike: The martial artist focuses her P.P.E. that gathers into a ball of frosty light which she then throws at her opponents. Sending a wave of ice and snow, knocking him off of his feet.
Prerequisites: Unmoving Glacier Stance x2.
Damage: 4d6, plus 1d6 per level purchased.
Range: 10 feet, plus 5 feet per level purchased. The opponent is knocked back 5 feet, plus 5 feet per level purchased.
Attacks: Two; the first is taken used up gathering the P.P.E., and the second is used to throw the gathered P.P.E. at the target.
Duration: Instant.
P.P.E. Cost: 10.
Experience Cost: 500 for the first purchase, and 300 for each additional level purchased.

Looking at it know it seems very Avatar-ish, but I started working on the setting way before the show.

[Blight]

Fatality Sub-Zero Wins!!

[JTwig]

Fatality Sub-Zero Wins!!

HA! I didn't even think about that. I haven't play a mortal combat game since I was in Junior High School (which has become a long time ago). If I had thought of that I probably would have stopped working on it, as I did with the Fire Lord style after seeing my first episode of Avatar.

[Library Ogre]

I've often wondered the same thing. If magic, which hasn't been around (in the game) for thousands of years could be rediscovered/created why couldn't martial art.

Um, magic is around. There are a large number of magical traditions all over the world, which are practiced today. Whether they're effacious or not is another question, but if you're going to ascribe supernatural or paranormal powers to martial artists, I don't see much of a stretch in allowing them for people who study magic.

[Blight]

JTwig don't let something like that keep you from working on something for your games. you started the idea ( and a good design it is) you should finish it. Your ideas coming up later under others work is bound to happen, It happened to our group so much we thought there were bugs.
But back to the subject there is also the development of new MA's we have a style of MA that is being designed for CS light Striker Borges their enhanced jumping, Reflexes, strength, and training in gymnastics and acrobatics make them amazing martial artists. They can move like no human ever could. (Think Black Magic-66). Also chi exists in all object with training and meditation a Borg could build and manipulate his chi. Just an idea..

[Blight]

Ok how about calling what they do a magic effect. This kind of mage uses his training and meditation to channel his PPE in new ways..

[JTwig]

I've often wondered the same thing. If magic, which hasn't been around (in the game) for thousands of years could be rediscovered/created why couldn't martial art.

Um, magic is around. There are a large number of magical traditions all over the world, which are practiced today. Whether they're effacious or not is another question, but if you're going to ascribe supernatural or paranormal powers to martial artists, I don't see much of a stretch in allowing them for people who study magic.

I wasn't attributing anything supernatural to pre-Rifts martial arts (I was talking about the game setting). In real life I would think it would be a lot easier for someone post Rifts to find information on martial arts that while not effective (supernaturally) before the return of mystic energy, but were now a way of unlocking the practitioners P.P.E. Most real world "magical" societies don't have a hundered+ text detailing their exact practices, but you can't walk into a modern bookstore without see a dozen books on Tai Chi.

JTwig.... somehow I find the idea of mixing martial arts in magic quite offensive.... Magic i magic, Chi is Chi.

Sounds like a personal hang-up/preference. Mechanically I don't see any difference between P.P.E., Chi, or I.S.P. (I also don't like the crap about how 2 I.S.P. = 1 P.P.E., and 6 Chi = 1 P.P.E.). Their just different ways of looking at the same energy source (though the mechanics for Chi are slightly different, with there being positive and negative Chi). Especially when you consider that one of the main inspirations for Ley Line (the main, not only) is the asian Dragon Lines; flowing lines of Chi energy that was influenced by celestial bodies (sound familiar).

[JTwig]

Ok how about calling what they do a magic effect. This kind of mage uses his training and meditation to channel his PPE in new ways..

How is that different that what a martial artist does. A mage an a martial artist both use mental, physical, and spiritual training to channel energy. They both used both internal and external energy. The only difference between the two are lexicon (chi, p.p.e, mana, the force, its all the same thing), and how they train (though O.C.C. like the Battle Magnus can start blur the lines). The end result is virtually the same; the character is able to use some sort of mystic energy to bend reality to his will and preform superhuman feats.

[glitterboy2098]

Actually, almost all martial arts were created to kill...not "not fight"

A philosophical concept stressing unity of the body and mind came later, but don't say that martial arts are about avoiding fights. They remain very much an offensive weapon and skill.

agreed. however, all organized fighting forms start with the idea of self control, that you fight only when you need to. and even then, only as far as needed. of course, if your going around pickin fights, you don't have the attitude to learn an MA to begin with. you'll either drop out, or learn self control.

i would also like to point out that while MA's include offensive training, they are mostly defensive in nature. partly due to the above, partly because back when they were formed it was assumed you'd be using a sword, bow, or other weapon on the offensive. attacking with only hands and feet was never a good idea at any point in history.

[JTwig]

Also there is nothing at all mystical or magical about martial arts it is simply training and a different state of mind about the world.

In real life yes, but were talking about an RPG here. So there is actually something mystical or magical about martial arts.

I think what the original poster and I are saying is that we are suprised that their is not an O.C.C. like the Adept (I think that is what its called) from Shadow Run; were magic energy is used to greatly increase the character's physical and combat abilities directly instead of through spells. You can call it a Martial Artist, or what ever you want, but the end result would be the same.

[Library Ogre]

How about "There are martial arts that are unrelated to Shao Lin Kung Fu."

Pankraeton, for example.

[Damian Magecraft]

yes... Yoga. It's the only one.... unless you consider those "techniques" used by the spartans to be martial arts....

well they were warfare (martial) techniques and the spartans did consider warfare an art....

[Library Ogre]

Grappling is where it's at......

Can't hit someone when they got you on your back.....

But not fun in RPG's...haha...

Didn't I say that?

However, the other advantage of grappling is that it'll damage people in MDC body armor; some moves (specifically things that work by joint overextension) are usable.

[Talavar]

But martial arts are hugely wide spread in Rifts. How many characters have Hand to Hand: Martial Arts? Sure, it's not a specific, named variety, but it's clearly supposed to be based on them, or an amalgamation of some. And that's why the specific ones introduced in Japan and China World Books are munchy: they're too much better than the HtoH that's supposed to be based on them.

[Ten Tigers]

I'm going to assume you mean various unarmed forms of combat here, and not just "martial arts" as a broad term... because the martial arts, in Rifts, do continue to evolve. They're those skills called Robot Combat: Elite, which allow you to use integrated weapons systems as part of your attacks.

I imagine the unarmed combat disciplines of Rifts are substantially different from today. Kicks and punches are not going to be high on the list of things for most people to learn; much high will be unbalancing manuevers (trips, throws) and joint locks/pins. The unbalancing maneuvers are effective against anyone... I may not be able to DAMAGE the MDC monstrosity barreling down on me, but I may have a chance of using, but I may be able to redirect him.

Power armor is the great equilizer, but it doesnt make you a better fighter. If you suck at hand to hand combat putting on a suit of power armor will just make you a crappy fighter in a can.

There is ALWAYS room for martial arts in modern combat, otherwise the -real world- military wouldn't waste time teaching it to its troops.

martial arts knowledge and skills themselves would diminish because people in the 2nd dark ages are more concerned with survival. you can defiantly shot a gargoyle with a laser gun, but martial arts aren't going to help out your average Human in that situation.

No but they would with SDC vs SDC. Believe it or not there is still a lot of that in Rifts.

You mean those found in China or those Asian styles.

Yes as well as from other countries as well.

The problem with the notion of martial arts coming back in Rifts is that in the days when martial arts were evolving and relevant....you could HURT something using martial arts.

In Rifts, even a monster with just 1 MD is going to beat down even the hardiest of super ninjas with non-MD attacks. Why spend years learning to do jump kicks when spending a month training on a laser rifle will keep you a million times safer?

Ever see what happens when someone tries to use aikido on a charging bull? There's a reason you don't go hand-to-hand with bears, too. Rifts is just too different a place for people to start creating new/bringing back old martial arts.

It must be nice to never run out of ammo in your games. It must also be nice to fire MD weapons in SDC structures and not have them come crashing down on your head. Besides, I have a Juicer who would WUV to disagree with you. All this and I haven't even addressed supernatural martial artists.

I think Martial arts are very well represented. There are LOTS of styles available to choose from. Lots of OCC variants.

As for actual damage, there are plenty of ways to achieve MDC damage using Martial Arts. MDC creatures will do MDC damage. Having MDC Armor on will allow you to do MDC damage. Using MDC Melee weapons lets you do MDC damage.

If they were not useful, you would not see every player trying to get Martial Arts (Common hth skill) or HtH Assasin.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Unless you are Coalition or from Japan you have a choice of TWO styles. That is nowhere NEAR enough to represent the plethora of artform possabilities.

We have Ninja's and Super Spies, and Mystic China.

TWO books that gives us all kinds of Martial Arts. I think we have plenty.

No we don't. There have been so many rules revisions for Rifts, yet at the same time, Ninjas & Superspies remains the bastard child of Palladium Books. The two aren't even compatable anymore and even if they were finding a GM to allow their use would be hard.

JTwig.... somehow I find the idea of mixing martial arts in magic quite offensive.... Magic i magic, Chi is Chi.

I couldn't agree more, in fact I'll expand on that... PPE is PPE, ISP is ISP, and Chi is Chi; energies of the mind, body, and spirit or soul. ISP would be energies of the mind, Chi would be energies of the body, and PPE would be energies of the spirit. Unfortunately the gods have spoken and now Chi and ISP are one in the same, at least in the world of Rifts.

I take Kung Fu, martial arts are much much more about not fighting than actually fighting. You learn how to fight so that you never have to fight. It is about awareness and confidence and being comfortable in your body and at one with your surroundings. If you take a martial art in order to kick ass you have completely missed the point.

Against supernatural creatures that are man sized martial arts would still be incredibly useful. Much of martial arts is using an opponents own strength against him. Not to mention the abilities of evasion. It also is incredibly good for your health (especially the softer stuff like tai chi) and can mitigate many diseases. My teacher has fibromyalgia and you would be hard pressed to even tell.

Also there is nothing at all mystical or magical about martial arts it is simply training and a different state of mind about the world.

I only half agree with you on this. In my opinion you miss the point as you live in far more forgiving times than when refined combat originated. Kung Fu does not even mean martial arts, it roughly translates to excellence obtained over time through dedication and effort. But make no mistake, Wu Shu (martial arts) was created for fighting during desperate times in Chinese history. Yes originally the Shaolin Monks were training for fitness and meditation but they realized if they could not defend themselves they would be destroyed and it would take more than philosophy to do this. SOMETIMES a fight can be avoided but when it cant the only thing that will save you is fighting.

Actually, almost all martial arts were created to kill...not "not fight"

A philosophical concept stressing unity of the body and mind came later, but don't say that martial arts are about avoiding fights. They remain very much an offensive weapon and skill.

Werd.

I think what the original poster and I are saying is that we are suprised that their is not an O.C.C. like the Adept (I think that is what its called) from Shadow Run; were magic energy is used to greatly increase the character's physical and combat abilities directly instead of through spells. You can call it a Martial Artist, or what ever you want, but the end result would be the same.

Actually that was to be my second point. My original point was refining the ability to defend yourself when you have no other means, or to increase the effectiveness of the means you have, will always be alive and well in warfare.

But yes, I was going to address that. If a mutant from Heroes Unlimited gets their powers turned into MD -and often themselves- then there is no reason why a Dedicated Martial Artist wouldn't. In fact, they kinda sealed the deal by making Chi and ISP one in the same. Otherwise a Burster could NEVER do mega damage no matter HOW much ISP he dumps into his powers.

These guys however should be rare. I'm not talking about somebody who learned Muay Thai from his daddy, I'm talking about the guy who spends his LIFE training, often in ley lines and nexus points. This person doesn't know Kung Fu, this person IS Kung Fu.

actually Martial arts were almost always created for the sake of making one fit. It was when it leaked out into the community from Shaolin temple, that it became fighting arts. Monks almost never kill intentionally (with the exception of a few rogues).

I'm sorry but the very existance of the classic animal forms (Snake, Crane, Tiger, Leopard, and Dragon) tell a different story. If they were merely looking to stay fit they had everything they needed. But ultimately they needed to defend themselves. Remember what a violent time this was in Chinese history. Hell, the Manchurians didn't order the destruction of the Shaolin Temple because they were too physically fit. It was because their martial prowess was an emberassment to the dynasty. Monks were not violent but they would defend the weak. They were heroes, with the exception of the rogues you mentioned.

Before we go any further...what do you think a martial art is? A martial art is ONLY a fighting style. Dress it up with whatever fancy names you want, but that is ALL it is. Japanese sword fighting is a martial art, so is German spear fighting and Spanish fencing. Martial arts are not some kind of way of life, people just make their lives about martial arts. That is how it works when you break it down.

THAT is my original point. There is a difference between knowing how to use a spear and knowing how to use a spear WELL. There is also a difference between knowing how to use a weapon and how to use a weapon in tandem with your other combat skills.

But martial arts are hugely wide spread in Rifts. How many characters have Hand to Hand: Martial Arts? Sure, it's not a specific, named variety, but it's clearly supposed to be based on them, or an amalgamation of some. And that's why the specific ones introduced in Japan and China World Books are munchy: they're too much better than the HtoH that's supposed to be based on them.

My beef with HTH-MA is it is waaaaay too generic. There are significant differences in styles that rely on striking as opposed to ones that rely on grappling. Then there are all the ones in between that utilise both striking and grappling. It just makes for more rich combat in my opinion than every character in the universe having the EXACT same moves.




Either way this thread took off rather nicely. Keep it comming....

[Library Ogre]

I'm going to assume you mean various unarmed forms of combat here, and not just "martial arts" as a broad term... because the martial arts, in Rifts, do continue to evolve. They're those skills called Robot Combat: Elite, which allow you to use integrated weapons systems as part of your attacks.

I imagine the unarmed combat disciplines of Rifts are substantially different from today. Kicks and punches are not going to be high on the list of things for most people to learn; much high will be unbalancing manuevers (trips, throws) and joint locks/pins. The unbalancing maneuvers are effective against anyone... I may not be able to DAMAGE the MDC monstrosity barreling down on me, but I may have a chance of using, but I may be able to redirect him.

Power armor is the great equilizer, but it doesnt make you a better fighter. If you suck at hand to hand combat putting on a suit of power armor will just make you a crappy fighter in a can.

There is ALWAYS room for martial arts in modern combat, otherwise the -real world- military wouldn't waste time teaching it to its troops.

This is true; however, as I was saying, the techniques are going to adapt to the technology that people have available.

One of the major aspects of that technology is MDC armor... not just power armor, but even stuff like Plastic Man or Dog Boy armor is, in normal combat, invulnerable to standard punches and kicks. However, that's why I think most "modern" martial arts in the age of Rifts will be involve incapacitating maneuvers... wrestling instead of boxing, leg sweeps instead of roundhouses. It's far more effective to trip a guy in invincible armor than to break your shin on his helmet; it's better to throw him than to break your knuckles on his chest plate.

[glitterboy2098]

even the joints are armored to a degree, with articulation frames, bullet resistant cloth, padding, ect. the joints would be designed to not over extend either, so popping a joint out of socket would be difficult in most armor.

difficult to injure the person inside. however trips, throws, arm/leg locks, ect can still effect a person in armor. they might not do much damage, but they can disorient or disable a person, which can buy you time to escape or time for your allies to arrive with firepower.

[Library Ogre]

martial arts should always work with MDC armor... since certain techniques aim solely at the weakest areas like the joints.

By that rationale, I should be able to do MDC damage with railguns to the meat underneath, since the burst would conceivably hit them in the joints with a round or two.

[Library Ogre]

you don't need to penetrate the armor at the joints, just hit the acu-pressure point and it will more or less disable the person, at least for a while.

And hitting it at multiple mach with a slug of metal would do the job rather nicely, wouldn't you agree?

[Damian Magecraft]

No... there are acu-points near/on joints and they are usually the very painful ones.

true but joint pressure points can be by passed...
the MAs that I have studied all center around knowing you own body and its limits and overcoming/bypassing them...incapacitating my opponent is secondary...as far as I can see the MA offered in the Rifts books are just fine....now if you wanna add a few "mystic MA to your world go right ahead....
Mystic MA....hmmmmm....this has potential as an off shoot of the mystic....must think on this more...

[Ten Tigers]

One of my favorite things is a with a character with some kind of martial arts and a vibro knife. Nothing more satisfying than knocking some big arrogant thing around with a well placed power hit or two (who cares if it does no actual damage, just looking to keep it off balance) only to end the game with a leg sweep (taking away initiative and one melee attack) that leaves the big bad MD nasty on the ground and a slash to the throat or a stab through the eyeball.

I've gotten mad props for tactics such as this but I'm usually using some form of martial arts from Ninjas and Superspies. Forget about martial arts powers or being supernatural for a moment, they just have far superior combat options. Aikido with boxing (for the +1 attack) are a gross combination for the above tactic and fits the mentality of Rifts and most other theories presented here.

It really can work and adds such a wonderful cinematic flair when used properly...


Edit: and don't even get me started on the coolness of a Fist of the North Star type character in Rifts.

The look of shock in a werecreatures eyes when it realizes your chi-charged melee attacks are actually doing damage is equally satisfying.

[Ten Tigers]

Fist Of The North Star I didn't know there were so many fans outside of Asia! But yes, the different techniques in the series are all killer moves, literally!

I don't particularly like to kill people or things unless absolutely neccessary....

What can I say, I'm a Yin Tiger...

Other joys we have integrated into our games from Ninjas & Superspies.

Atemi and Advanced Atemi skills work on non-human physiologies provided the martial artist can study the creatrure for x number of rounds.

Supernatural Dim Mak: This is an advanced form of Dim Mak and requires the normal Dim Mak to select it. The end result is Dim Mak may be performed on supernatural creatures destroying their ability to regenerate. I love doing that to dragons. Beware of the enemies you make.

[Vrykolas2k]

The problem with the notion of martial arts coming back in Rifts is that in the days when martial arts were evolving and relevant....you could HURT something using martial arts.

In Rifts, even a monster with just 1 MD is going to beat down even the hardiest of super ninjas with non-MD attacks. Why spend years learning to do jump kicks when spending a month training on a laser rifle will keep you a million times safer?

Ever see what happens when someone tries to use aikido on a charging bull? There's a reason you don't go hand-to-hand with bears, too. Rifts is just too different a place for people to start creating new/bringing back old martial arts.

Luckily, most people are unlikely to ever run into an MDC creature.
Even PCs shouldn't encounter them on a daily basis, for the most part.

[Colt47]

Rifts has evolved into a freaking MDC hell. Everything has mdc. Heck, even the bunnies had to evolve MDC hides so they act as a viable food source for MDC wolves. I mean if they were not MDC the wolf would just splat the little guys all over the place while trying to eat em.

Adventurers are going to encounter a LOT of MDC creatures. I mean, if a person is adventuring they are not going down the street to the coffee shop, they are going out into the woods for days or even weeks looking for some Leyline Walkers lost sunglasses or helping some poor kid get vengeance on a giant fury beetle for eating his pet dog Todo.

But yeah, every book lists more MDC baddies. Most of the newer GMs assume that every encounter in Rifts is MDC. I liked my old GM and our encounters with normal wildlife. One time we had to get a wilderness scout to help track down a black bear that ran off with our rations and the items we needed to hand into this one guy.

[GreenGhost]

I only allow my players to use the Hand to Hand: Martial Arts unless they have a good character background which includes how they trained in one of the martial arts listed in the Rifts: Japan book, but even that's rare.

[Ten Tigers]

I'm literally a Yin Tiger... I am born one.

As am I.

Stick a label on that HtH martial Arts and there you go. The more advanced techniques are represented by that, while the less developed ones are from HtH Basic and Expert. Use in game flavor to make them distinct. This headhunter practices Big Vibro-Sword Combat, while the City Rat uses Quiet Knife from Behind style.

That has to be the worst solution idea ever.

Thats like saying there is no difference between boxing and wrestling. Or a car and a motorcycle, after all they both have wheels and go vrooooom!!!

Not everything is about bonuses to strike parry and dodge, different mechanics will have an effect that will affect combat. Remember, rules are guidelines that serve a purpose. Otherwise it would be too easy for a player who has been acting like his character knows Tae Kwan Do (a striking art) to start acting like he knows Brazilian Jujitsu (a grapling art).

In your example the city rat would be bound to a knife because he has WP Knife, and the Head Hunter would be bound to using a big sword because he has WP Sword. With your philosophy either OCC could use either weapon because they are both sharp and pointy. That is what I am talking about mechanics. A shorter blade forces you to adopt different tactics than a longer blade and vice versa.

[Ten Tigers]

1974, I'm a wood tiger.

[Ten Tigers]

This remains the number one reason that martial arts in Rifts would remain the generic ones listed in the book. You could do 100 snap kicks in a minute...but that won't stop a single MD blast from even the weakest of Wilk's pistols.

Think about the movie starwars for a minute. Remember in the Cantena when that walrus looking alien was harrassing Luke and Obi Wan proceeded to chop everybody up before they could even level their guns? That wasn't so much the force as it was initiative. How does this apply?

The thug at the bar you are questioning thinks you just asked your last question, he goes to pull his 1d6x1000 MD pistol out, but not before you simultaniously use a disarming kick to send the gun flying across the room and shoot him with your MD peashooter. A lot of good a gun does when you cant draw a bead on your target.

Besides, haven't you ever had to enter a bar or tavern in Rifts? When you do is it with guns drawn? I highly doubt it. If so your GM hasn't been runing things right.

Oh yeah, if you have MD strength then yes 100 snap kicks WILL do something. Something else naysayers seem to overlook. EVERYONE seems to be MD anymore. Even if it's in power armor.

It just seems like most people just want to write it off, and thats cool, but you can't deny that you have more options WITH martial arts training than without it. Again this is why martial arts is taught to real world special forces. Hand to hand combat has a VERY real place in urban combat which includes burnt out ruins.

One of my favorite scenes in Saving Private Ryan is when that Jewish kid is fighing the german in hand to hand because they were no longer in rifle range. If that kid knew more than HTH Basic he might have lived to see the credits roll. Instead he got a slow knife through the heart and his rifle didn't do him a DAMN bit of good. Saying it was an SDC weapon is irrelavant, an MD weapon wouldn't have changed a thing. SDC, MDC, they'll all kill ya.

I would imagine the martial arts in Rifts are generic and limited because like the Old West, or the failed Boxer Rebellion, everyone has a damn gun.

Trying to convince people to invest all that time when you can be deadly with basic MDC armor and weapons might be difficult.

What pi$$es me off is if it was written into the rules to begin with everybody would mindlessly agree with it. It already has elements like Im wanting to see they are just misplaced, misused, or unused.

P.S. The Boxer Rebellion wasn't kung fu vs. guns. It was a bloody civil war and EVERYBODY had guns. Just to so you know the true history...

[Ten Tigers]

Hate to break it to you...but your Star Wars analogy is extremely flawed. One, Obi-Wan was a Jedi, the pinnacle of combat in the Star Wars galaxy...and one of the best Jedi ever, too. Second, he used a lightsaber, not a kick. Third, how much good would that disarming kick do if the thug won initiative and shot first? Obi-Wan's new name would be Greedo. You presented a case of initiative winning, not martial arts.

At the distance the walrus was standing from Obi Wan, he -Obi- could have been unarmed with NO force powers whatsoever. He was in MELEE RANGE. I gurantee you at that range most the time a cool mind and a trained hand is faster than drawing a gun or a knife. I have known many bouncers and all have had run-in's with guns and knives. Not to mention stories from cops and security guards. Sorry but your argument doesn't hold water. You have to draw a gun to use a gun.

If you take a look at that scene again in Private Ryan, you'd have also noticed that if the Jewish kid was physically stronger he'd have avoided the knife as he had the advantage in the beginning; the German simply overpowered him. Also if you'll remember that same scene, hand to hand combat sure didn't do that German the Jewish kid shot first any good; it took 2 of them to get one person and even with basic hand to hand training the Jewish kid almost won. As for martial arts being taught to the military today, what is being taught is already demonstrated in the books under HtH Commando.

By disputing the Private Ryan referance you are just being argumentative. Who cares about relative strength. One of my best friends, and long time judo/jujitsu practitioner is 6'0" and 250 lbs, most of it muscle. When he first studied jujitsu a 12 year old schoolgirl layed him flat on his a$$. That kid didn't have to start lifting weights, he just needed a good hip throw followed by a buttstroke to the face. And yes I know about HTH commando but you have to be a CS Soldier to learn it. That's what I'm complaining about. It's TOO flipin hard to get something other than HTH Martial Arts and that is not only lame but unrealistic.

Again, that 100 snap kick thing is great if you CAN do MD, but since your average person can't it once more places it in the "this isn't so handy" bracket. It's not being overlooked, it's just that a fist or kick has a range of 2 meters max. When your opponent is packing guns that even on their lowest setting (most pistols) do more damage than your even armor-assisted punches/kicks can do, PLUS they have the range on you, it again renders you in a crap situation.

Player characters aren't "average people", and most people have access to MD strength in one form or another. Again you speak as if Rifts is populated solely by humans. It's not, and what humans are there tend to have MOM implants, cybernetics, juicer conversion, magic spells or items, power armor, etc....

Then you have your bar scenario. Again, this is an initiative situation as you can fast draw AND shoot someone in one action without shooting wild if you opt for WP Sharpshooting which has been expanded to allow a lot more OCC's to use it. This once more nullifies the notion of CQB's effectiveness.

No it's not. You missed the part about the SIMULTANIOUS disarming kick. That's not initiative, thats a technique. Oh yeah, sharpshooting is a specialty skill that "the average person" wont have. But like I said, player characters aren't "average people." Again you are just being argumentative, this is about Martial Arts, not initiative from sharpshooting. If you are going to try to shoot down (pun intended) valid points don't do the same by bringing sharpshooting into it. In that example BOTH combatants have sharpshooting, equal initiative bonuses and happen to roll the number for initiative. Happy? Now under these circumstances, the kick will have a chance of negating the attack of the thug. The thug better hope the kick misses or his attack will miss while the martial artist will shoot the now disarmed thug. Now because this is a simultanious attack the thug couldn't dodge if he wanted to. Yes that is in the rules, but the kick is not.

Would martial arts training help some? Yeah, which is what you see in the various HtH styles available. But spending 8-12 years studying Tiger Claw Kung Fu making your character on par with a farmboy who just spent 2 months in boot camp and now equipped with an MD rifle and body armor? Nope, doesn't work like that.

Again, who said anything about Tiger Claw or some obscure art? You are taking the most obscure of examples and taking it out of context. And no that is not what we see withthe various HTH styles available. There ARE NO various HTH styles available. You have HTH Martial Arts (one option) unless you have a special background. End of list.

I'm not even looking for 21 different styles, just a little variation between striking, grappling, and hybrid styles (balanced striking and grappling). And NO that is not already available. I would be happy with those three simple variations.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have heard many times over that martial arts in general are rare in the world of Rifts as all this ancient knowledge has been lost. Personally I think this is hogwash.

Why do people think that the martial arts are such a complex thing? Hell, MAGIC is FAR more complex to learn and would have a far greater washout rate. Yet not only may humans learn magic, they can create their own spells.

How far of a stretch of the imagination would it be that people would start creating new martial arts from scratch? It's human nature to take combat to the next level. In fact if you research real world human history, most martial arts evolved from times of turmoil and desperation, not because man was in a golden age.

Taking this into consideration, not only would new martial arts develop and flourish, they would not be too dissimilar from modern martial arts. After all, human physiology has not changed in the world of Rifts. Physics remain the same as does the way the human body functions. It is all too reasonable that forms very similar to Kick Boxing, Judo, and other forms we recognize today would be invented just as they were in ancient earth.

Discuss...

Look in the book.
Notice the "Hand to Hand: Martial Arts" skill?
It's not rare at all.

Now the specific ancient martial arts listed in N&S and Rifts Japan are pretty darn rare, even unheard of in North America.
But that makes a decent amount of sense.

[Ten Tigers]

Yeah, it's not like my friend was Mongo off his leash. It was just a simple demonstration, grab the little girl as quickly as you can. He honestly didn't think she could move somebody as heavy as he was.

But it's like one of those metal fire doors. It's big and heavy and you would normaly have a problem moving it around. Yet the same door when hinged properly can be swung to and fro by the weakest of people.

In addition to leverage, he learned something else...

NOTHING can hit you as hard as the ground.

[Colt47]

Yeah, the hardest martial arts to find would be the Kung Fu. With the exception of maybe a few types of kung fu, most of it is taught in China or West Coast. Personally I think this sucks because I so want to make a Marine with Shaolin Kung Fu.

[Blight]

Yeah, the hardest martial arts to find would be the Kung Fu. With the exception of maybe a few types of kung fu, most of it is taught in China or West Coast. Personally I think this sucks because I so want to make a Marine with Shaolin Kung Fu.

Save that Shaolin Gung Fu temple outside Vegas Or any of those other martial Arts academys (you know those live in schools) that are across the US that might have survived..

[Colt47]

Well, the annoying thing in Rifts is that a lot of melee combat moves and things of the sort have different damage ratings. Open palm strike and Knife hand both do 2d4 in Rifts, but 1d6 in N&SS. I just use the revised hand to hand rules for damage now. Makes a lot more sense anyway.

[batlchip]

umm.... Is everyone forgeting about the merc Kinoshi in RM page 58.He is IMHo an example of what this discussion is about.

[batlchip]

I thought that Martial arts is by Definition a system of training for combat.I may be wrong but boxing,wrestling and just about everything dealing with Hth is a martial art if you practice it.

[Randomfist]

I still think it's lame that a psi-slinger can choose HTH: Commando

[devillin]

Martial arts at the level of N&SS are unusual in the least with special powers and chi, the stuff of fiction? A modern day black belt in whatever is probably only equivalent to HTH: MA anyway. There are a few exceptions and it depends on the quality of the person and the training. If you take a grunt from the CS though I would insist they have no special martial arts training, like a workmate of mine said after a barroom brawl where he decked 3 soldiers by himself (like we were going to get into that one), "they may be able to shoot but they sure can't use their fists". His training, none, he never took training, he was just some guy that fought alot growing up and received a few beatings too. I've trained for over 15 years in a variety of martial arts, i'm still not that good, but I'd never take him on, he would win.

That would be more of an example of experience versus martial arts ability. You may have trained for 15 years, but how many real, life or death, fights have you been in? Tournament fighting wouldn't really count, since that is more about style than whether or not you live. So you have the equivalent of a second or third level person with H2H: MA or 3 guys that are the equivalent of 1st or 2nd level H2H: Expert, versus a guy that is 6th or 7th level H2H: Basic with Boxing skills. I'd give him Boxing, cause to face 3 guys at once, and win, he had to have been doing quite a bit of weaving and jabbing.

[shiiv-a]

I got as far as the top of page three and i think that i got bored.

correct me if i'm wrong here ... but the reason that certain "martial arts" styles are ... how you would say 'not about anymore' is because of hte simple reason that with the generic 'martial arts fighting style' .. who needs to take the time .. and years ... to learn one that is 'specialized' ... ?

sorry .. just my thoughts on the subject

[Ahulane]

You all need to read Bruce Lee. A style is a set of limitations that limit what you can do. Every style has a counter and every counter has a counter; as long as humans continue to have 2 hands and 2 feet there will only be so many ways you can hit people.

Wrong...have you even taken any kata based martial arts? You said the same thing that a friend of mine keeps telling me..."read bruce lee and he says that...blah blah blah..." If you haven't actually taken a kata based martial arts then you shouldn't talk about them.

Kata's are yes, a set amount of movements for specific actions and reactions for typical attacks that you would be faced against in a brawl, streetfight or even against another martial artist. You may be doing the same kata over and over and over and over and over again until your in a mindless trance while performing those katas...but in know way are you limited in what you do. Kata's a basically used to drill in muscle memory of ways that you should typically react to basic situations in combat, enhancing your reaction time defensivly and offensivly.

Bruce Lee was basically all about simplifying combat, don't kick above your waist, don't over extend in your attacks, keep loose and relaxed while remaining calm, be like water and go with the flow... blah blah blah...remember he was a philosipher and martial artist though if you actually pay attention to what he says, alot of it is just recycled from what you would be taught if you took the same martial arts that he did or just read enough about other "styles" because they all say basically the same thing.

The problem with Rifts IMO is that the styles from China and Japan are soooo much better than anything else. Look at the samurai HtoH. It is insane and yet samurai fighting is incredibly limited to a specific weapon in specific circumstances yet the HtoH in Rifts does not take this into account. Anyone who takes martial arts will gain some generic bonuses in combat. However, things that are specific to styles are much too based on specialized conditions to just throw in as extra bonuses. Different styles may have different specialized techniques but in general a guy who learns one style of kung fu to a certain level will be pretty much equal in basic skills to a guy who learns another style to the same level of skill.

There is a trainer in California somewhere that teaches both Aikido and Bushido as well as a few other "styles" of the martial arts while keeping to both the old traditions for instruction. A samurai is in no way limited in what he can do (or well I should say that your only limited in what you yourself can do not what the art actually teaches you), their kata's that you learn are again for common (as well as some uncommon) situations that you would encounter helping you react to the situation quicker, almost on a subconscious level...ever hear about trained people get into fights and don't really remember doing anything yet they come out of the fight with little to no injury and their opponents are left mangled and battered? Those are people who's bodies have reacted before their mind could comprehend fully what was happening until the fight was over (it does happen).

Yes its true that if you get into a fight that your not going to be able to pull off a kata fully or even use a fraction of it...this is true...but thats not the point...even if someone gets you into a bear hug or whatever and your unable to react one way, you have a whole arsenal of maneuvers that you have been taught to use for that situation or one like it, also with the training that you've received you are able to think about alternate solutions to your current situation better than someone with no formal training what-so-ever.

HtoH Martial Arts show the generic combat bonuses a person who learns martial arts should have. IMO what is missing from rifts is the stat bonuses to PS, PP, PE and even ME and Spd (even possibly MA if you're truly understanding the art) that should be given for martial arts training. It helps you in all facets of life, not just fighting. If you want more moves make em up! You don't need to have a foot-sweep ability to be able to try one. Hell use the HtoH martial arts combat and then just put in the moves you want your character to have.

While styles may focus on different things the actual bonuses characters recieve should be very similar in most cases.

I'm talking about the sort of training available to anyone on the street. The stuff military people learn is 100% about killing an opponent as quickly as possible as oppose to disabling an opponent as quickly as possible. No real martial artist will teach you with his objective being making you a killing machine unless he is evil (assassin) or in the military (commando).

Unless your taking a martial art for some sort of competition there really is no huge physical requirement, just good hand eye coordination, balance, reaction time and memory. If you take a style like Tae Kwon Do which is basically a tournament based style, yes you may receive more physical training, but if you take say...American Kenpo Karate which relies heavily on kata's you'll notice that it doesn't require nearly as much physical conditioning as Tae Kwon Do...though physical conditioning is really more of an option for any martial arts, being in shape will help you out in the long run, but even the 300+ lb 6' 3'' fat guy in the kimono will still dominate just as well as the 6' 3'' 210 lb ripped guy if he applies himself.

On the subject of killing someone being taught in a style...well yes it is taught in most of them, you probably don't notice it at first but the maneuvers are there, they also give opportunity to kill or seriously injure someone if need be so don't make the assumption that your not taught how to kill in a martial art style...after all these fighting styles were developed to counter people who were armed back in the day.

I thought that Martial arts is by Definition a system of training for combat.I may be wrong but boxing,wrestling and just about everything dealing with Hth is a martial art if you practice it.

Yes it is...basically, though certain forms can be used for other things...like Tai Chi for example is widely used as a meditative style though people who practice more than just the meditation kata's are just as capable of defending themselves as any other style (focuses on Leverage in attacks rather than muscular power...a soft style like Aikido).

Considering how many karate dojos you can find in just about any sized city...I wouldn't call it a complex art, nor hard to learn. Trained boxers and wrestlers are just as dangerous as a black belt/high level in any other martial art...probably even more so.

That they are Alejandro...that they are...who would seriously want to fight someone who's trained to either KO you as fast as he can or someone who's trained to take a beating while pounding you into the mud?

Actually, having seen more than a few fights between trained strikers and trained grapplers...you are really selling grapplers short. Long before short only works if the guy on the short side doesn't know how to deal with reach...and grapplers do. If you are well trained in a striking style it doesn't mean you will dominate against a grappling style...it just means you'll stand a chance against a grappler, just like you'd stand a chance against a fellow striker. HUGE difference.

Best example would be to watch some IFC and see the Brazilian Jujitsu people go against someone who is MMA. I watched one show where it was Bulldogs vs Wolves (i think those were the teams...Red for dogs and blue for wolves), the wolves had primarily MMA fighters while the dogs had a few MMA's and just pure Brazilian Jujitsu fighters...Red team won in the end of that show with only 1 of their members losing.

My friends dad always says...if you end up on the ground you better get up as fast as you can because thats where you actually get messed up in a real fight.

My main point is everything being equal striking will generally win an open air fight with no ring or rules. Most fights you see have at least gloves on the hands and stuff like open palm strikes and finger strikes (tiger's claw and poison hands) are banned.

In fights like UFC or IFC or Boxing...the reason why they use gloves is because there is less tissue damage with gloves than with bare hands...if you watched old school bare-knuckle boxers from back in the day, people walk out of those fights with their faces ripped apart from the knuckles on the other dudes hands ripping through their skin, and no in an open fight no rules or anything a "striker" won't have a better chance of winning vs. grapple fighters...its alot easier to punch someone but unless your trained to KO people then your really only getting lucky if you do KO someone in a streetfight where as choking someone out is generally an instant win even if your not trained, personally I go for chokes and breaking bones when I fight as those are quicker means of downing my opponent (can't fight back with a broken leg or arm...or at least not as well)...and I've taken a few different styles myself as well as done some body hardening and physical conditioning.

I'm not discounting the effectiveness of striking, I'm discounting the notion of striking being better even on a fundamental level. Unless one actually promotes fights where there are literally no limits then one can never really say which is better on any level, even the most basic. Since fights like that are illegal and most skilled fighters who want to continue fighting avoid those kinds of fights it is impossible to gauge the effectiveness of one school of combat versus another.

Exactly...which is why we will never see weather or not Jet Li would win in a straight up fight against Jackie Chan (my money would go on Jet Li though).

I got as far as the top of page three and i think that i got bored.

I lasted about that long as well

I've often wondered the same thing. If magic, which hasn't been around (in the game) for thousands of years could be rediscovered/created why couldn't martial art.

Its not that they can't be rediscovered or created...its really their availability to people in Rifts compared to how available they are to learn now adays....currently there is pretty much a minimum of 1 martial arts school of some kind in a city with a population above 10k people...in rifts where there are significantly less human dominant/populated cities, human martial arts are going to be more rare while D-Bee self defense styles will eventually be more present. I think it was Merc-Ops which had the dojo with the 4 martial artists in it, 1 being a d-bee who's own alien style was similer to an earth style.

The thug at the bar you are questioning thinks you just asked your last question, he goes to pull his 1d6x1000 MD pistol out, but not before you simultaniously use a disarming kick to send the gun flying across the room and shoot him with your MD peashooter. A lot of good a gun does when you cant draw a bead on your target.

No it's not. You missed the part about the SIMULTANIOUS disarming kick. That's not initiative, thats a technique. Oh yeah, sharpshooting is a specialty skill that "the average person" wont have. But like I said, player characters aren't "average people." Again you are just being argumentative, this is about Martial Arts, not initiative from sharpshooting. If you are going to try to shoot down (pun intended) valid points don't do the same by bringing sharpshooting into it. In that example BOTH combatants have sharpshooting, equal initiative bonuses and happen to roll the number for initiative. Happy? Now under these circumstances, the kick will have a chance of negating the attack of the thug. The thug better hope the kick misses or his attack will miss while the martial artist will shoot the now disarmed thug. Now because this is a simultanious attack the thug couldn't dodge if he wanted to. Yes that is in the rules, but the kick is not.

Basic rule when getting your permit to carry concealed or even receiving unarmed and armed certification training is that if you have a gun and your opponent has a knife or something else in his hands...there is a fair chance that if he is within 30-21 feet of you that you will be killed before you can even draw your gun...this is a known fact and anyone who carries concealed should know this...if not ask a local cop and they'll tell you. This isn't because of "initiative" its because of documented facts of people who carry have been stabbed or clubbed or whatever to death by people with melee weapons within that distance before they could draw their guns. Try it though just so you can compare the time it takes to sprint at full speed with intent to kill 21 feet...then practice drawing your weapon, takeing aim, and fireing with the intent to kill and see what your times are...I garuntee that the person with the knife will gut you 90% of the time, so the scene in Star Wars makes sense to me even if Obi wan was a crippled old man with no force powers and just a butter knife...that big tusk dude would still get his face stabbed.

One of my favorite scenes in Saving Private Ryan is when that Jewish kid is fighing the german in hand to hand because they were no longer in rifle range. If that kid knew more than HTH Basic he might have lived to see the credits roll. Instead he got a slow knife through the heart and his rifle didn't do him a DAMN bit of good. Saying it was an SDC weapon is irrelavant, an MD weapon wouldn't have changed a thing. SDC, MDC, they'll all kill ya.

I agree with Alejandro here..simple fact of that fight was that the German was physically stronger than the "jewish kid"...thats why he lost when he got on the ground, if the kid wasn't lanky and actually had more muscle it would have ended differently I'm sure...plus it was in the script

Player characters aren't "average people", and most people have access to MD strength in one form or another. Again you speak as if Rifts is populated solely by humans. It's not, and what humans are there tend to have MOM implants, cybernetics, juicer conversion, magic spells or items, power armor, etc....

Why aren't PC's average? Unless your rolling 30's on all your stats for your toons then ya your not average...I mean...Erin Tarn sure seems like one average old lady to me for a scholar.

By disputing the Private Ryan referance you are just being argumentative. Who cares about relative strength. One of my best friends, and long time judo/jujitsu practitioner is 6'0" and 250 lbs, most of it muscle. When he first studied jujitsu a 12 year old schoolgirl layed him flat on his a$$. That kid didn't have to start lifting weights, he just needed a good hip throw followed by a buttstroke to the face. And yes I know about HTH commando but you have to be a CS Soldier to learn it. That's what I'm complaining about. It's TOO flipin hard to get something other than HTH Martial Arts and that is not only lame but unrealistic

Size and Strength are key for fights if you didn't know...your friend who got dropped by the 12 year old girl was just being stupid and probably didn't pay attention...plus, how the hell does a guy get hiptossed by a little girl anyways?!? what was he doing that put him in that position? I don't know about you but I'm 280 lbs and 6' 1'' and I wrestle with my 15 and 16 year old nephews at the same time and I toss them around like ragdolls, and I'm talking actual wrestling, not this play around BS that people normally do, I literally throw them to the ground or across the yard...no way a 12 year old girl is going to hiptoss me even if she was some grandmaster in Aikido and Jujitsu, because the second she grabbed me she'd go flying into a wall or I'd break her hand/arm...I don't mess around. That girl must have been strong too if she just grabbed him and threw him to the ground...as well as insanely fast for your Jujitsu friend to not even realize what was happening to him.

As far as you having to be a coalition soldier to learn commando...no thats not true...there are alot of OCC's out there that allow you to choose commando if you spend the extra skills selections when your making your character.

Ya its hard to get anything other than basic HtH MA...but thats because the MA in the main book represents a generic version of MA, if your looking for more exotic styles then you'd need to travel to China or Japan...but even then your still only getting that regions basic HtH styles. Finding exotic martial arts in Rifts is pretty much the same as it is currently...you can't walk down the street and find someone who teaches Monkey Style Kung Fu, you'd probably have to do some searching and even then, getting into the class would be difficult...I could only imagine how hard it would be to get into an exotic marital arts school in an apocolyptic world setting.

Anyways...I'm just posting my own personal experiance, knowledge and ability. Please try not to take offense as I don't mean any, just having taken a few different arts myself I feel that its completely understandable that trying to gain an exotic form of MA in Rifts earth should be near impossible for your typical PC, even if it was a realistic setting I could see that anything over expert would be fairly difficult to train in if you weren't some sort of soldier OCC.

[Rimmer]

I personally think that certain martial arts style would have died out over time, some of the more prevalent ones would have stuck around though (TKD, Karate, KickBoxing etc) but that dosent preclude the inventions of new ones, new styles are always being invented, either by barsardisation of existing styles, merging of two styles, or very rarely the invention of a new style altogether, hell, even two people studying the same style with the same teacher will both come out different, in 300 odd years who knows what might have come out ? heres 3 off the top of my head

"Segal" style - involves throwing and joint lock techniques.
"Wolverine" Style - weapon based style using twin vibro claws
"Saiyan" style - used by the few people with super energy expulsion

And many more, but you get the idea.

[Ahulane]

"Segal" style - involves throwing and joint lock techniques.
"Wolverine" Style - weapon based style using twin vibro claws
"Saiyan" style - used by the few people with super energy expulsion

lol

Well I assume you mean Steven Segal...he uses primarily Aikido with a little Judo. As for Wolverine, here's a link to his bio on Wikipedia so you can see for yourself how skilled in martial arts he is, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_%28comics%29

On the topic of Saiyans from DBZ, their martial arts training focused more on body hardening and the development of their own personal chi, though they did do alot of sparring (thats just for the earth warriors though not the actual Saiyan race, nothing in show tells how they are trained and I haven't read the Manga so if they were trained in any special style it would definately be more involved than any martial art you'd find anywhere else.

Bruce Lee puts all his philosophy down at once and does not hide or keep anything back. Few places you go to learn martial arts will tell you these things all at once without holding back.

All you have to do is ask the person teaching you why your doing what your doing, 90% of the time they will answer you truthfully and if you ask them if there are better ways of doing what your doing they would probably be inclined to see what you have in mind...provided it doesn't sound farfetched or completely rediculous. The only reason they don't tell you straight up like Bruce Lee does is probably because it would confuse the hell out of you if you were still a novice and they all of a sudden go...oh by the way...after everything you do. They want to teach you their style...one thats been around for centuries and hasn't changed much over that time yet is still incredibly effective regardless of how much it has or has not improved, Bruce Lee just skips all the katas and has you do alot of conditioning while he instructs you on all the basic fighting principles...I'm not saying that his methods aren't effective I'm just saying that he's not everything that people make him out to be.

"Lee is best remembered for the presentation of Chinese martial arts to the non-Chinese world.His films, especially the Hollywood-produced Enter the Dragon, elevated the traditional Hong Kong martial arts film to a new level of popularity and acclaim, and sparked the first major surge of interest in Chinese martial arts in the West. The direction and tone of his films changed and influenced martial arts and martial arts films in Hong Kong, China, and the rest of the world. Lee became an iconic figure particularly to Chinese, as he portrayed Chinese national pride and Chinese nationalism in his movies.[1] Many see Lee as a model blueprint for acquiring a strong and efficient body, as well as developing a mastery of martial arts and hand to hand combat skills."

Basically that is saying that he is the spokesperson for martial arts, without him we'd probably would have never even heard of alot of the styles that China has to offer, but that doesn't mean that he was the greatest martial artist of all time...like alot of people make him out to be.

His suppositions about styles limiting you is also true. Realising that you are being limited is the point. An example is realising that if a guy gets on top of you biting his face is probably the best thing to get him off of you, not some complex manouver. You tear a guy's nose off with your teeth and you've probably won the fight. It's brutal but effective.

Yes the Kata's are limited...but in no way are they limiting your ability. If you have formal ground fighting training from say just ordinary Judo and someone does get on top of you if you happen to end up on the ground...I garuntee that some obscure maneuver like biting his nose off is going to be the last thing on your mind.

I train Katas (we call them forms), pretty well everyone does. They are great but also limit you. If you are properly trained application of them with a partner then they can be very effective in a fight. They are not the be all and end all of learning a martial art.

I never said they were the be all end all of martial arts...however kata's have been around far longer than Bruce Lee has and have worked both before and after his time. Actually to just give you a clue on how effective kata's can be in a real fight...watch The Perfect Weapon with Jeff Speakman...it may be a movie but it has the best usage of kata's in a martial arts movie...plus the situations he is placed in when he uses them are all typical to what an average person might encounter...though how he gets into said encounters are not so typical as most people don't go looking to kick the crap out of 3 black belts in some random gym.

Repetition should be trained with any move, not just katas. I know all about Kata and constantly train them. I still think Bruce Lee is brilliant. I think that what Bruce Lee says is simply flying over your head. Have you actually even read his material?

I think your another one of those obsessed Bruce Lee fanclub members, like I said earlier my friend keeps reciting me BS about Bruce Lee any time a martial arts movie comes out. The second I say..."wow that guy is really good" or "hey thats a cool martial arts" BAM ..."no way dude bruce lee is way better..blah blah blah...life story...blah blah blah"

Boxing and wrestling are all about physical conditioning. That is why people who learn those disciplines are dangerous. They are dangerous because they are strong and tough, not because the technique they learn is good. Every boxer I've ever seen fight in MMA has had the crap kicked out of them because they either end up on the ground or have to deal with kicks to the legs. Wrestlers fair better because they can often ground and pound and trying to submit a good wrestler with jiujitsu is nigh impossible.

There's really no way to compare a professional boxer with someone in UFC...unless they were to actually fight...and even then it would be UFC rules most likely. However I doubt that any UFC (redundant?) would stand a good chance against any of the current boxing champs that are out now. Professional Wrestlers like the ones in WWE are more for show, yes their big and strong and still know how to fight, but everything they do is an act even though they really do have to be able to take punches, kicks, falls, throws, etc.

When talking about killing blows I'm talking about the FOCUS of a style. Military styles FOCUS on being lethal. Yes all styles have deadly elements but what you learn in the military is far more focused on killing than anything you learn on the street. I have a very good friend in military and he tries to avoid fights more than anyone I know because he doesn't know what he might do to someone.

The current MCMAP is actually less lethal than the former LINE training that marines used to receive for HtH combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Cor ... bat_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCMAP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Army_Combatives

Some links for you so you actually know what your talking about...

Back in the day yes...military martial arts were designed to kill but currently they are for disableing your adversaries and focus more on being defensive than offensive as well as being a last resort since you never go into combat without your weapons.

[Colt47]

Oh, sure, lets start throwing Saijins into Rifts! Yes, this could be my shortest post ever.

[finn69]

in all this talk of MA'a in Rifts i havent seen one mention of the Martial arts of the monk occ from wormwood. after looking at it again it looks like just what alot of people are looking for to make their pc's martial arts different from other pc's martial arts.

[batlchip]

I'll know someone will disagree with this . I have found that most people that have their life on the line will tend to use whatever works to survive.I could be wrong.I think that the generic form of martial arts described by rifts is just a speacilized form of street fighting.

[Rimmerdal]

I personally think that certain martial arts style would have died out over time, some of the more prevalent ones would have stuck around though (TKD, Karate, KickBoxing etc) but that dosent preclude the inventions of new ones, new styles are always being invented, either by barsardisation of existing styles, merging of two styles, or very rarely the invention of a new style altogether, hell, even two people studying the same style with the same teacher will both come out different, in 300 odd years who knows what might have come out ? heres 3 off the top of my head

"Segal" style - involves throwing and joint lock techniques.
"Wolverine" Style - weapon based style using twin vibro claws
"Saiyan" style - used by the few people with super energy expulsion

And many more, but you get the idea.

and a few would evolve and mingle with others that fit together. (if said already ignore, too lazy too read all pages.)

but I do love Wolvie style "hack'em up goodness",