Reagren Wright wrote:I really bugs me to see the loophole of using mimic in order to have the clones make multiple
selves when the power states you can't make more duplicates. And how can you mimic yourself
when the clone is essentially the same as the original accept for making duplicates
? Its
logic that doesn't make sense accept to "manipulate the spirit of the rule" in order to justify
making untold numbers of duplicates. And here's something to consider, how can you make
more duplicates then you have P.E.? If a duplicate dies you lose 1 P.E. attribute point forever.
So if I take a machinegun and do a full melee spray and hose down 30 duplicatres, and your
P.E. is 20, I don't care if you have 200 or whatever duplicates, your dead. I know people are
big fans of a certain mutant from Marvel comics who makes untold numbers of himself, but
come on, let's stick to the spirit of the power and have one every two levels or one every
level of experiece, or take a mega power from Rifter #37 and get two a level.
The fact is, just like you, your clones have the ability to Copy Another bodies powers... AND because of the Newer rule that states that All of your power are (And this IS the big one that makes the Mimic+M-being trick work) Replaced, it simply mean that Yes, You are Still limited to the maximum copy limit, but your clones are Not using That power limit anymore, they are using the limits of the Mimicry power and what IT has to offer.
I understand where you are comming from, and even I at first thought as you did, BUT then I Redid the math and realized that the Mim+Mult combo is completely sound. See the deal is that you've got the same hang-ups/fixations that we all get in the begining regarding (
A) the Cheat-O-Riffickness of the combo, (
B) that whole you can't copy yourself rule, (
C) The maximum copy limitation rule, and finally (
D) The No clones can not make copies rule.
So let's adress them:
A)YES, of course this combo appears to be Cheat-O-Riffic, but to be considered a True cheat, it would Have to be against the games rules and clearly it is not. And to further argue that the definition of Cheating is:
•To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards. This is the definition most assumed to be the basic meaning, and Is by Further definition:
"In role-playing games one of the most popular methods is using "trainer" programs, which usually greatly inflate player's stats/attributes." This last definition, created by roleplayers For roleplayers, implies (simply put) that 'You' (assumed cheater) beat 'I' (The offended one-who is often never even truly effected in the slightest by said cheaters action) to the punch in coming up with such a cool idea.
In short, cheating has been Re-written by roleplayers so as to imply
"Anything that grants one an Un-fair advantage over other players or the gaming world"... Which
A) Is the equivalent of Petty Jealousy, and
B) Is a Crazy comment to base this off of because, By that Same exact definition, ANYONE who uses superpowers or guns or cars or advanced tech or magic or CHI martial-artist attacks or Normal martial artist attacks or Spirita-Anima or Giant mecha or body armor or Psychic powers in that same game where Normal humans (everyone for that matter) does Not have equal access to any and or all of the above, automatically defines Everyone here on the PB boards as cheaters...
By definition... Of course.
(IE, you have EE: Fire and you are taking on a normal unarmed human with a billy club at 30 ft range... You have the advantage and, by the above definition of cheating, which was invented by Unrealistic RP's, this clearly includes You into the above defintion. Meaning Everyone who has superpowers is an Automatic cheater cuz they are More powerful than Normal Un-augmented humans).
So... we move on a little to the Object lesson.IF you consider this Combo to be a bad thing in your game, all you have to do is what the rest of us do and simply Not allow it, or allow it with restrictions, or Just allow it for few, True, RPers in your group to use... Like what i did.
PLUS, most all of my own gamers know of this combo and yet, despite many of them being Munchkins, I have had only had two of them (Both strict RPers) ever ask to play this combo. I didn't consider one guys idea "Good enough RPing", but the second guys idea Was quality so i let him fly with it.
So, there you have it... This combo has never cuased me trouble because I'm simply not gonna let Everyone Take such a rare combo when one considers how unlikely it would/should be for Two supers to Both have the same exact power combo... It is a Very rare combo, it (Like most other rare combos) should never come-up more than once or twice in a life time.
Period.
So A) has been discussed...
Moving on to B, C, & D.
B)The "Your copy can't copy the original because they shair your life signature" rule:This rule simply has Never existed anywhere in PB as the catch all rule for any such instance. It is, simply put, a made up rule that "Game Prosecutors" invented so as to justify their feeling of
"What you just said/wrote/did made me feel uneasy, and "I" think it is illegal, or if it isn't, it Should be"...
FYI-A
Game Prosecutor is the exact opposet of a Rules Lawyer. Where as a
Rules Lawyer trys to fanagle every Lame And Logical reason in the Flufftext, Game rule system, and or Real world science for them to get away with obvious Murder by Twisting such consepts into Unrecognizable patterns, a Game Prosecutor will do that exact same thing in the Opposet direction so as to try and justify Restricting anyone and eveyones gaming experiance into fitting into Their limited frame of a gaming world (In other words..." RPG's are not about having fun, they are serious! No having fun!"). They are in short, the self appointed Police of the Gaming world, always trying to invent New rules so as to prevent "Cheating" or "Abuses", but very often (Just like real world police) they end-up taking things to far and endup becoming abusive themselves.
And (again Just like real world police) they often get it in their heads that Somehow they are the Avatars of their own personal god (Spelt L.A.W. instead of g.o.d.) and that They have an ever increasing right to start to Bend the rules in Their own favor... Very often becoming Just like a Rules Lawyer in that they twist meaning and definition of law to fit their own needs.
In the end One is a show off and goof off, the Other is a Game Nazi, But one Claims to be helping by bring about order for a better game (and in the begining often do), but in the end they Both end up destroying the whole RPGing experiance... Just like Mr.Po Po when They are not kept in check by the people.
C)The Maximum Copy limitAll players with the Multiple-Beings super power are limited to 1one or 2two copies maximum per level... This is the rule. It is a FACT!
But when every someone Mimicks/copies your power, Regardless of whether or not the target of a power duplication has or has Not used their power to the maximum, the Mimicry power duplicates said power as though it was at Full capacity.
•So YOU the PC creates your maximum of four clones/duplicates at you level of 8...
•Guy X comes along and Copies your power.
•Looses ALL of his Other powers and attributes, and takes on all of Your (the PCs) instead.
•Guy X can now ALSO create 4 copies of Himself.
•Regardless of the fact that You the PC had all of your clones out at the time, Guy X can still create 4 copies.
That is Just how the power of Mimicry works... And THAT is also a Fact.
The simple fact is, that Guy X's clones can NOT create anymore clones because they are ALL copies of of a guy whos Mimicry power is Morphed into the PC's abilities, so they are stuck with the limits of the power of Multiple-Beings, meaning that all clones made are made.
BUT, if you combine the total number of clones on the feild, there are now 4 from the PC and 4 from Guy X... For a total of 8 clones when the rules say
"No more than 4 at this time"... Why, because the rules IS being followed. The PC has created no more than 4 copies, and Guy X has created no more than 4 copies as well. The rules are followed and neither one broke the rule.
The Maximum rule was VERY specific in saying "The rule ONLY applies to the CREATOR of the clones"...
As his clones had Another, Differant rule apllied to Them as well. So No rules are broken here Either.
D)Clones can NOT make copies.This rule simply can not be broken. When Clones are created they are INCABABLE of directly using The SAME "Multiple-Beings" ability as their master that was used to create them...
THEY ARE STERILE!!!
Plain and simply...
they can NOT use that power.
BUT, Because of how the Mimicry power works, when the Clones use it, they loose All of their abilitys AND flaws and become near Bio-logical Copies of the Target at said targets Peek!!! Say what you will, say what you want about Both the Target And the Clones sharing a similar life signature, that rules restriction is Not written in either of the power nor Anywhere in the books. Clone Can copy the original games legal! And since they are NOT using the impotent version of the 'Multiple-Beings' power which is Locked away inside them to make the clones of themselves, but rather they are replacing much of themselves with a freash and Fully functional NEWLY working version of the Multiple-Bings supwer power, they in fact CAN create their Own copies which are now Unrelated versions of themselves.
Additionally:Any clones using this power Via the Weaker Mass clone ability (The version of multiple Beings that lets you create one clone per level, instead of one clone per every Other level rule) has Copied the Original power level of their master creator at Full power... Which means that if the master was at level 4 and created 4 copies, they would all be at level 3 in power... BUT due to the Copies Mimicking their master, and although the clone was at level 3 in power a moment ago, they are Now bumped up to Level 4 power just like their master.
NOW THAT THAT HAS ALL BEEN SAIDThis combo goes against the SPIRIT and logically assumed intent of what Kevin had wanted and, Clearly he would have Ixnay'ed this combo when he first created the powers had he realized at the time what it/they could do when put together... BUT, he hasn't becuase he figures that it upto YOU the Players, and YOU the GM/ST's to Not use this combo unless you're intent on powergaming OR you feel that you (as a responsible Play or GM that it will NOT disrupt the game.
But Still, we can all tell when someone wishes to be abusive with ANY POWER(S), and it is upto the GM to realize this fact ahead of time. LUCKILY with This age old Combo, we ARE Fairly warned... Unlike Other combos which do the Real damage becuase we ARE NOT ready for them... Those are Far more dangerious than the Mim+Mult combo for Just that reason.
But YES, this IS a game breaking power and therefore the GM/ST MUST Keep this combo in check.