Rifts Ultimate and Psychics

[grandmaster z0b]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

Wrong.

An R.C.C. cannot choose an O.C.C., period. Which means that anything that was called an R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is simply a race.

The CS Dog Boy Training is simply an O.C.C. that is specific to the Dog Boy Race (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists), and is not an R.C.C.

~ Josh

[Subjugator]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

Wrong.

An R.C.C. cannot choose an O.C.C., period. Which means that anything that was called an R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is simply a race.

The CS Dog Boy Training is simply an O.C.C. that is specific to the Dog Boy Race (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists), and is not an R.C.C.

~ Josh

OK - so what about the old RCCs that have NOT been converted to OCCs, but where there are examples of them TAKING OCCs in the books?

I'm thinking specifically of Chiang Ku dragons. Dragons remain an RCC, and yet in England, Percival has an OCC of knight (I uhh...think so anyway... )

/Sub

[demos606]

Chiang-ku are allowed, per their RCC, any 1 OCC and have a special variant of Tattoo Master available to them which is particularly sick in its potential.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

Wrong.

An R.C.C. cannot choose an O.C.C., period. Which means that anything that was called an R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is simply a race.

The CS Dog Boy Training is simply an O.C.C. that is specific to the Dog Boy Race (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists), and is not an R.C.C.

~ Josh

OK - so what about the old RCCs that have NOT been converted to OCCs, but where there are examples of them TAKING OCCs in the books?

I'm thinking specifically of Chiang Ku dragons. Dragons remain an RCC, and yet in England, Percival has an OCC of knight (I uhh...think so anyway... )

/Sub

Like I said in my post above: Any old R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is now a race. So, if it can pick an OC.C., it is a race, not an R.C.C.

In cases of races like the Quick Flex, that have a standard skill set but could instead opt to pick an O,C,C,, the skill set is now just a racial specific O.C.C. (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists). So the "Quick Flex Rogue R.C.C." as found with the Quick Flex Race is really "Quick Flex Rogue O.C.C."

With few exceptions: an R.C.C. CANNOT pick an O.C.C.

The Chiang Ku would be one of those special exception to the R.C.C. rule, or simply considered a race (not really sure, dragons should be R.C.C.s).

Or at least, this is how they set it out in RUE, hopefully it doesn't get muddied with future supplements (again).

~ Josh

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

basically: Rifts is all over the place logic-wise, so what you do is "test drive" something and if it doesn't stink up the place too much you run with it.

if you can have fun with it, then use it. If you want your D'Norrian Devilmen to be able to have psionics so they can be Techno-wizards, then it's not really a big deal...it's just another techno-wizard with funny features, really. If your GM will allow two techno-wizards in a game, but won't allow one of them to be a D'Norrian...seems silly really.

Now if you're running, Brodkil/Mind Melter/Cosmo-Knight then that seems a bit extreme.

it seems that a large percentage of Rifts players & GMs make changes to the canon material, so what's another small change really going to affect ?

I think Denaes said it best: "It's an attempt to introduce balance in a game system that has none."

That's all fine and well, but keep in mind that when someone asks a question, we must assume that they are asking for a canonical reponse, unless otherwise stated.

BTW, to answer the original question of the thread: Psychic Classes, via RUE, are O.C.C.s. Thus, a Burster couldn't pick an O.C.C., as Burster is his/her O.C.C.

Canonically anyways.

~ Josh

[Nekira Sudacne]

you have to, I don't.

one thing I learned in almost 9000 posts, is that PB canon is for suckers.

many GMs will implement house rules anyway, so why not a few more ?

can't be any worse than some of the ones I've seen.

why? because the person asking probablly cares a lot more about cannon than you do. and if your answering their question, you are answering for them, not you.

I disagree with half hte answers I give that are offical. I still give them.

[Library Ogre]

you have to, I don't.

one thing I learned in almost 9000 posts, is that PB canon is for suckers.

many GMs will implement house rules anyway, so why not a few more ?

can't be any worse than some of the ones I've seen.

why? because the person asking probablly cares a lot more about cannon than you do. and if your answering their question, you are answering for them, not you.

I disagree with half hte answers I give that are offical. I still give them.

And I think here we come to the applicability of the last line of my sig...

[Greeter]

you have to, I don't.

one thing I learned in almost 9000 posts, is that PB canon is for suckers.

many GMs will implement house rules anyway, so why not a few more ?

can't be any worse than some of the ones I've seen.

why? because the person asking probablly cares a lot more about cannon than you do. and if your answering their question, you are answering for them, not you.

I disagree with half hte answers I give that are offical. I still give them.

It might be a good idea to give a source whenever you give a canon answer (book and page number would be very nice).

Otherwise it is difficult to tell when an answer is canon or not.

[Nekira Sudacne]

you have to, I don't.

one thing I learned in almost 9000 posts, is that PB canon is for suckers.

many GMs will implement house rules anyway, so why not a few more ?

can't be any worse than some of the ones I've seen.

why? because the person asking probablly cares a lot more about cannon than you do. and if your answering their question, you are answering for them, not you.

I disagree with half hte answers I give that are offical. I still give them.

It might be a good idea to give a source whenever you give a canon answer (book and page number would be very nice).

Otherwise it is difficult to tell when an answer is canon or not.

Ok. Now, care to try to adress my point?

[Greeter]

Which one?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Which one?

I only made one.

[Greeter]

You would first have to explain what your point is.

If it is that we should give canon answers then I agree. I think if you are actually giving a canon answer then you should be able to give book and page number. I also think you should be able to back it up if questioned.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You would first have to explain what your point is.

If it is that we should give canon answers then I agree.

good

I think if you are actually giving a canon answer then you should be able to give book and page number. I also think you should be able to back it up if questioned.

Also good points, but we're not here to talk about me

[Greeter]

You would first have to explain what your point is.

If it is that we should give canon answers then I agree.

good

I think if you are actually giving a canon answer then you should be able to give book and page number. I also think you should be able to back it up if questioned.

Also good points, but we're not here to talk about me

"You" is used in reference to anyone, not you specifically.

Edit: Though now that I think of it, I am still waiting on those page numbers in the Close Combat thread.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

you have to, I don't.

one thing I learned in almost 9000 posts, is that PB canon is for suckers.

many GMs will implement house rules anyway, so why not a few more ?

can't be any worse than some of the ones I've seen.

What you are suggesting is tantamount to:

"Hey, how do you make a Cosmopolitan?"

"Meh, who cares how it is normally made, just mix whatever liquor you want and call it a Cosmopolitan."

Unless otherwise stated, we deal in canonical answers. Your House Rules are not as universal as you think they are.* The gent that started this thread was looking for a canon answer, one that clearly exists (psychics classes like the Mind Melter are their own O.C.C., and thus cannot pick another O.C.C.), and thus, House Rules really don't apply here**.

~ Josh

*(thanks Mr. Nexx)

**(There is nothing wrong with House Rules, but when someone is looking for a canon answer, they are voided)

[Library Ogre]

I'll point out that I frequently cite my house rules in these conversations... but I also say "In my opinion" or "I think"

[Greeter]

I'll point out that I frequently cite my house rules in these conversations... but I also say "In my opinion" or "I think"

Personally I am thankful for people who give house rules using your method. There are many areas where house rules are needed. Some of the rules I use in my campaigns I got from various posters on here. The problem is those people who continually answer questions as if they are quoting canon rules when they are only giving a house rule or guess. It is like if you answer it with enough authority then you must be correct.

[grandmaster z0b]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

Wrong.

An R.C.C. cannot choose an O.C.C., period. Which means that anything that was called an R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is simply a race.

The CS Dog Boy Training is simply an O.C.C. that is specific to the Dog Boy Race (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists), and is not an R.C.C.

~ Josh

Excuse me?

I never said an RCC can choose an OCC, period.

Next time you feel the need to rudely state "Wrong." can you please explain which part of the statement is wrong? From what I understand the only "wrong" thing I said was "Dog Boy RCC" instead of Dog Boy OCC.

[shadrak]

I'm pretty sure grandmaster is right, after all, there are several canon NPC's that fit the format of being a race the normally has an RCC but has left the original RCC for an OCC.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I'm pretty sure grandmaster is right, after all, there are several canon NPC's that fit the format of being a race the normally has an RCC but has left the original RCC for an OCC.

No, he's wrong,

If it can pick an O.C.C., as of RUE, it is a race, not an R.C.C.

See my previous posts on this thread for further details.

~ Josh

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

Wrong.

An R.C.C. cannot choose an O.C.C., period. Which means that anything that was called an R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is simply a race.

The CS Dog Boy Training is simply an O.C.C. that is specific to the Dog Boy Race (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists), and is not an R.C.C.

~ Josh

Excuse me?

I never said an RCC can choose an OCC, period.

Next time you feel the need to rudely state "Wrong." can you please explain which part of the statement is wrong? From what I understand the only "wrong" thing I said was "Dog Boy RCC" instead of Dog Boy OCC.

I wasn't aware that I was rude.

And the Dog Boy "R.C.C." point is wrong. That's what I meant.

~ Josh

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

Wrong.

An R.C.C. cannot choose an O.C.C., period. Which means that anything that was called an R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is simply a race.

The CS Dog Boy Training is simply an O.C.C. that is specific to the Dog Boy Race (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists), and is not an R.C.C.

~ Josh

Excuse me?

I never said an RCC can choose an OCC, period.

Next time you feel the need to rudely state "Wrong." can you please explain which part of the statement is wrong? From what I understand the only "wrong" thing I said was "Dog Boy RCC" instead of Dog Boy OCC.

I wasn't aware that I was rude.

And the Dog Boy "R.C.C." point is wrong. That's what I meant.

~ Josh

Hug it out gentlemen!

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

Wrong.

An R.C.C. cannot choose an O.C.C., period. Which means that anything that was called an R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is simply a race.

The CS Dog Boy Training is simply an O.C.C. that is specific to the Dog Boy Race (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists), and is not an R.C.C.

~ Josh

Excuse me?

I never said an RCC can choose an OCC, period.

Next time you feel the need to rudely state "Wrong." can you please explain which part of the statement is wrong? From what I understand the only "wrong" thing I said was "Dog Boy RCC" instead of Dog Boy OCC.

I wasn't aware that I was rude.

And the Dog Boy "R.C.C." point is wrong. That's what I meant.

~ Josh

Hug it out gentlemen!

As long as it is a Bro-Hug.

That's my new policy, after I hugged darkbrandon and he tried to slip me the tongue.

Yeah, so Bro-hugs only.



~ Josh

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

As long as it is a Bro-Hug.

That's my new policy, after I hugged darkbrandon and he tried to slip me the tongue.

Yeah, so Bro-hugs only.



~ Josh

where's the vomit-con...dear god where is it.

[grandmaster z0b]

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can. There is a difference between races and RCC now though, RCCs are basically OCCs for specific races but now those races can choose a different OCC if they wish.

For example a dogboy can choose to be a Dogboy RCC, or if they were a Freeborn they could be a City Rat OCC. They would still keep the dogboys natural abilities but not the skills provided by the Dogboy RCC.

Wrong.

An R.C.C. cannot choose an O.C.C., period. Which means that anything that was called an R.C.C. that could pick an O.C.C. is simply a race.

The CS Dog Boy Training is simply an O.C.C. that is specific to the Dog Boy Race (kinda like how only humans can be Elemental Fusionists), and is not an R.C.C.

~ Josh

Excuse me?

I never said an RCC can choose an OCC, period.

Next time you feel the need to rudely state "Wrong." can you please explain which part of the statement is wrong? From what I understand the only "wrong" thing I said was "Dog Boy RCC" instead of Dog Boy OCC.

I wasn't aware that I was rude.

And the Dog Boy "R.C.C." point is wrong. That's what I meant.

~ Josh

It just the fact that your reply to my entire post was "Wrong." as if everything I had said was wrong. When I read your comments we were in fact saying the exact same thing except that I said "Dog Boy RCC" instead of "Dog Boy OCC".

As I said I never said an RCC can choose an OCC.

In fact I think that my response was totally accurate:

PCCs cannot choose an OCC, but certain races can.

insn't that exactly what you said?

[Tinker Dragoon]

I think I saw it mentioned on the fourms somewhere about RUE now allowing PCCs to select an OCC. I know of the Psi-Stalker Cyber Knight example but what is the exact rule now?

Edit: My big question is how this affects the PCCs found in Psycape.

RUE doesn't allow PCCs to also choose an OCC (in fact, RUE disposes of the term PCC entirely, because it was deemed too confusing ), but the old Psychic RCCs from the RMB have been changed to OCCs. Unfortunately, in the case of Psi-Stalkers and Dog Boys, it is not made clear which abilities are supposed to be racial and which are supposed to be occupational.

Presumably, the psychic classes in other Rifts books would also now be considered OCCs, though this again creates problems for mutants like the Mind Melter and Psi-Slayer.

[bathawk]

yeah this all has me scrating my head too

the only thing that really needed "fixed" was what races/RC's can/can't chose an OCC
Normally it was pretty easy, most books over the last few years said which RCC's could pick from what OCC's, and usually the only ones that couldn't were the ones not intelligent enough to "learn" an OCC or had too many powers/abilities to develop to allow for learning an OCC, simple right?

that being said I'm still scratching my head about whay Madhaven mutants aren't intelligent enough to have an OCC choice, sure a couple of them are dumber than dirt but others are not only intelligent, but almost none of them have the "need to devote time to learnign my superpowers" issue

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

that being said I'm still scratching my head about whay Madhaven mutants aren't intelligent enough to have an OCC choice, sure a couple of them are dumber than dirt but others are not only intelligent, but almost none of them have the "need to devote time to learnign my superpowers" issue

Intelligence is not the only thing that dictates whether something is an R.C.C. that cannot pick an O.C.C., or a race that can pick an O.C.C.

A creature can be brilliant, and still be limited to an R.C.C. based on other factors. Such as Dragons.

~ Josh

[bathawk]

really trying not to be flip, but other factors are there? In the case of Dragons I thought it was because they have such a wide berth of abilities that it takes so much of thier time to learn to develop those wide abilities that they just plain don't have the time in the short term to learn an OCC

but if a charcter has little or no special abilities, and is intelligent enough, what else would prevent it from learnign to be a body fixer, headhunter, ley line walker ect;?

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

really trying not to be flip, but other factors are there? In the case of Dragons I thought it was because they have such a wide berth of abilities that it takes so much of thier time to learn to develop those wide abilities that they just plain don't have the time in the short term to learn an OCC

but if a charcter has little or no special abilities, and is intelligent enough, what else would prevent it from learnign to be a body fixer, headhunter, ley line walker ect;?

Environment, racial society, et cetera.

Though I do agree that some (not all) of the Haven Mutants would probably be better suited as races that could select a (limited) number of O.C.C., rather than R.C.C.s

~ Josh

[ApocalypseZero]

basically: Rifts is all over the place logic-wise, so what you do is "test drive" something and if it doesn't stink up the place too much you run with it.

I'm not here to pick on Gadrin, only to point out what he said, which is repeated often.....

How is Rifts (or most other Palladium games) 'illogical' (or however one would state it)? I have played Palladium games since '87 and never once hit something that made me completely feel that 'it wasn't logical'. There may have been many initial reactions, but after re-reading and such, many things pan out and work.

I know many seem to feel lost when Rule X isn't explained somewhere, but it never stops the GM (or Players) from using something in the books close enough to handle the situation.

Please, I'd love to hear what causes people to think of Rifts as 'illogical'. If anyone wants to, PM me or start a thread somewhere and point me to it. I'd love to continue this.

-End Threadjack-

As for the question, there has always been a blured line of what is a 'Race' (as seen in the Conversion Books) and that of an R.C.C. From all accounts, consider this.

An R.C.C. (be it Promethean, Azverkan, Dragon, etc) is a D-Bee race of some sort, but due to their own powers, society, or even writer's fiat, they may only have a certain Class. Unless it is specified, these R.C.C.'s can never be anything but what they are.

A 'Race' is slightly different, and a bit harder to point out. The Psi-Stalker, Dog Boy, Humans, True Atlanteans, Elves, Dwaves, etc are all races. In essence, they are the essentials of an R.C.C., but without the additional Class Information.

Take the Psi-Stalker. All the Attributes and Abilities (Sensing Supernatural, etc, the numbered Abilities) are all common to every Psi-Stalker. So, if you wanted a Psi-Stalker Body Fixer, it'd have the Attributes and Abilities from the Psi-Stalker plus the Skills and Abilities of the Body Fixer. Of course, that is the open way to think about it. There is the closed way where nothing can be a Psi-Stalker unless it says so, like the Psi-Slayer I believe. Instead of rolling it like a Human (3D6 for Stats), you'd use the Stats for the Psi-Stalker but everything else would be from the Psi-Slayer.

You see, no house rules either. The subject is left open for you as a GM and Player to decide and not dictated for you by some author whom's rule you'd break to do what you want. In essence, there is no wrong way, as long as enjoyment is made.

[bathawk]

another wrinkle here, do only humans get a bonus roll for rolling a 16-18 for on thier attrivutes?

right now my "house rule" is if the creatures attribute is rolled on a 3d6 and is a mortal supernatural creature he/she/it still gets the bonus if the initial roll is 16-18

[Nekira Sudacne]

another wrinkle here, do only humans get a bonus roll for rolling a 16-18 for on thier attrivutes?

right now my "house rule" is if the creatures attribute is rolled on a 3d6 and is a mortal supernatural creature he/she/it still gets the bonus if the initial roll is 16-18

ofically, it depends on the "number of dice rolled" and not race. Any attribute that is a 3d6 roll gets the extra bonus die on 16-18 and the extra 1d6 if the extra is a 6. any attribute roll that is 4d6 or more does not get the extra die. If the attribute roll is 2d6, they get the bonus die on 11-12.

[bathawk]

fantastic! thanks alot Nekira, that's been bugging me for a bit, know what book thats in if I forget?

what if the roll is somethign weird like en elfs 3d6 +1 for IQ?

and I thought if you rolled a 6 on your bonus die roll, you only rolled again with HU charcaters (at least in RUE it dosne't say anything about extra bonus dice)

[Nekira Sudacne]

fantastic! thanks alot Nekira, that's been bugging me for a bit, know what book thats in if I forget?

what if the roll is somethign weird like en elfs 3d6 +1 for IQ?

you get the extra roll on any 3d6 roll. if it has a bonus, it has a bonus, but you still get the normal extra rolls.

and I thought if you rolled a 6 on your bonus die roll, you only rolled again with HU charcaters (at least in RUE it dosne't say anything about extra bonus dice)

you might wanna read the section on attributes again. it DOES say that they get it in RUE. and Palladium Fantasy too.