Magic Skills and Proficiencies

[Library Ogre]

So, hey, let's play with the idea of these things being some way to spend skills to get better at magic stuff.


Some Basic Ideas:

Ritual Training: The character is trained to help in ritual magic; they can provide up to 70% of their PPE (rather than 50%), and do not count against the requirement for a ceremony requiring 10 people (so you if you have 20 people with ritual training, you just cast the ritual, getting 70% of all their PPE, without the need for literal song and dance).

Scroll Conversion: All wizards can do this; this is a special skill (mostly of use to Wizards and Alchemists, but other invocation-casters can use it) that makes you actively GOOD at it. Scroll Conversion requires the ability to learn spells from scrolls, and starts at 16% +3% per level. Wizards get a +8%, and +2% per level (i.e. this adds to their ability).

Common Spells: You know some basic invocations; Globe of Daylight, Sense Magic, Decipher Magic. You can be taught other spells, up to level two. You have no additional PPE for these spells, and have a spell strength of 10.

Recognize Enchantment: 20% +3% per level. Those with recognize Enchantment as a class ability take this to get +20% (no per level increase)

Recognize Magic: 10%, +2% per level. Those with Recognize Magic as a class ability take this to get +10% (no per level increase)

Literacy: Runes: This is just an option for anyone to learn literacy skills in runes; they can't DO anything in particular with the runes... they can read and write them, and writing them in silver makes parchment invulnerable... but they are just a language this person can read.

Study of Power Words: 30% +5% per level. You still know the power words of your class (if any), but this gives you familiarity with other power words, their uses and associations. It goes far beyond just making the sounds... it's making the sounds correctly, at the right speed, while feeling the power behind them. This doesn't necessarily give you any magical abilities... mostly recognition of magical abilities.

Mystic Symbology: 60%+5% per level. You know the common mystic symbols and can correctly interpret them in their usual context. If you can read runes and symbols, you can probably make your way through a Diabolist's diary without getting tripped up by the occasional drawings of Hydras. This can also help interpret circles, but it doesn't actually let you draw them.

Recognize and Understand Circles: 10% +2% per level; those with the skill as a class ability get a +10% and +1% per level. Just like Diabolists, including +10% for protection circles (no additional bonus there for Diabolists... you know circles, but it's just that protection circles are easy).

Use Magic Circles: Requires Power Words, Mystic Symbology, and Recognize and Understand Circles: 15% +2% per level; +10 for protection circles, those with the class ability get +15% to the skill. Like Diabolists, you can't make any circles, but you can use one that is active.

Identify Energized Wards: 15% +5% per level, or +15% if you know it from a class ability (no bonus per level, though). As per the diabolist ability.

Create Alarm: You can try to make an Alarm ward, just like a Diabolist. Requires Power Words, ID Energized Wards, and Rune literacy. You know the Silent, Sound, and Magic alarms, and the colors. You can use these in combination with runes (such as excepting someone from the alarm by writing their True Name next to it). Chance is as ID Energized Ward (You've got the extra training to do this).

Learn and Create Protection Circles: Requires Use Magic Circles and its prereq's: You can create and use protection circles that you have learned. Learning is done at 20% +4%, and requires some form of teacher or instruction... you can learn it from a book, or you can be taught it by a summoner or alchemist, but you can't sit down and figure it out on your own.

Special For Warlock
Warlock Spell: A Warlock may spend a skill to take any Warlock spell for their element(s) of their level or lower. They may ALSO use this skill to take a Warlock spell of up to half their level from ANOTHER element... all Warlocks are Brothers, after all, and while they have a particular affinity to one or two, they are not insensitive to the others.

Summoning Specialist: The Warlock is adept at summoning elementals; the chance to do so is +10%, and it requires only one hour of preparation.

***

Now, you might say, "This is just letting people take the special abilities of other classes" and my answer is EXACTLY. Any wizard can learn to use a two-handed sword. Any Diabolist can learn HtH Expert. And, if so inclined, any Mercenary Warrior can learn a couple spells, or learn to figure out what the runes mean.

[Grazzik]

So, hey, let's play with the idea of these things being some way to spend skills to get better at magic stuff.
...
Now, you might say, "This is just letting people take the special abilities of other classes" and my answer is EXACTLY. Any wizard can learn to use a two-handed sword. Any Diabolist can learn HtH Expert. And, if so inclined, any Mercenary Warrior can learn a couple spells, or learn to figure out what the runes mean.

So, assuming this is all house rules and putting aside the discussion of whether you can learn magic like a skill or whether it is more of the development of an ability, might I suggest you look at the Divination skill (NB WB3 pg 9). It is effectively a spell but presented as a Technical skill with a ME requirement. There doesn't appear to be any OCC limitation nor any PPE expended.

For Non-Mages
My first instinct is not to allow any spell casting by someone not trained in the mystic arts. If you want that, play a half-wizard or forsaken mage. However, for magical powers that are more abilities rather than spells, like Divination or Meditation or optimizing rituals (say for a Wizard's assistant), presenting as a skill is a workable option. Divination could be used a model for translating mystic knowledge to a skills based mechanic, as the interesting part is that the GM rolls in secret, not the player, so the player can't automatically trust the info they gain and may experience an OOPS! factor.

However, anything that requires expending PPE to have an effect would be problematic. First, the average non-magical PC has a miniscule amount of PPE. PERHAPS you could design a version of meditation that could unlock that miniscule energy, but the result would likely be fleeting allowing for one immediate shot at a spell before another period of meditation would be required. Divination requires such meditation. Not much use while under fire, but depending on the situation, could be useful in a pinch. Also, they shouldn't have the ability to tap into environmental PPE like at a LL or nexus - they are not mages.

For Mages
Now the alternative is if a magic user wants to improve their abilities like scroll conversion, potion making etc. Why not simply allow them to select an ability they already have as a skill to get get a 10% bump. This could be done a maximum number of times as per skill specialization. Learning new abilities available to other magicks... well, perhaps just have it cost 3 skills initially and each specialization cost 2 skills. This way, you wouldn't have to reinvent abilities and their %s already in the books, just the game mechanic.

Alternatively, perhaps the mage could give up spells gained on levelling up to instead focus on improving their abilities. I wouldn't allow new abilities to be learned this way as a Wizard only gets one new spell a level, unless you want to use a mechanic similar to HoH Advanced Training where you'd give up future spells. However, as mages can simply buy new spells anytime and not rely on levelling, the Advanced Training mechanism could be misused by players. So, I'd limit it to existing abilities only.

Hope this helps

[Library Ogre]

My first instinct is not to allow any spell casting by someone not trained in the mystic arts.

Way I see it, stuff like this is training in the mystic arts, the same way that Hand To Hand skills and Weapon Proficiencies are training in the martial arts. There's no problem with a wizard spending two skills to be roughly on par with a Soldier or Knight (i.e. HtH Expert), why is there a problem with a Soldier or Knight spending a couple skills to be a low-skill magician?

Is the soldier or knight a better fighter than the wizard? Sure, in a few ways... they can wear better armor with fewer penalties, have a wider range of WPs they can choose from, and have more SDC at the start.

Is the Wizard a better mage than the Soldier or Knight with these rules? Far better; they can learn more spells, they have more PPE, their spells are more powerful, and they learn spells automatically as they go along.

[Grazzik]

Way I see it, stuff like this is training in the mystic arts, the same way that Hand To Hand skills and Weapon Proficiencies are training in the martial arts. There's no problem with a wizard spending two skills to be roughly on par with a Soldier or Knight (i.e. HtH Expert), why is there a problem with a Soldier or Knight spending a couple skills to be a low-skill magician?

Is the soldier or knight a better fighter than the wizard? Sure, in a few ways... they can wear better armor with fewer penalties, have a wider range of WPs they can choose from, and have more SDC at the start.

Is the Wizard a better mage than the Soldier or Knight with these rules? Far better; they can learn more spells, they have more PPE, their spells are more powerful, and they learn spells automatically as they go along.

Okay... not going down the rabbit hole of why learning to swing a sword is different from learning to channel the mystic ether of the megaverse in ways that defy the laws of physics.

Well, there is formal training and then there is informal training. It is unlikely that a wizardry school is going to open their doors to the merc who's passing by and interested in auditing a course or two. Formal training will require switching OCCs. Informal training however is more likely to be learned outside the schools and guilds.

So, if one were to play a sword swinging soldier that wanted to cast the odd magic spell, the simplest answer is just play a Forsaken Mage or switch OCC to one. But, let's say the PC is a mundane soldier that at some point in life picks up some snippets of magic knowledge without switching OCCs. There are some preconditions that need to be met:

1) they need to have a pool of PPE. If they spend the time to get this through training, they must not have spent time to maintain their soldiery talents. I'd suggest that soldier OCC bonuses (and maybe even OCC skill bonuses) are lost as time is spent to unlock their inner PPE pool - namely, they get rusty while sitting on the floor meditating or reading books.

2) they need to know the theory behind magic. That would be two skill slots at the very least, if not more. Also, this wouldn't be the full formal curriculum - simply a primer. As a class that started out learning magic, the Forsaken Mage's description says that they have no formal training and pick up spells from whoever they can. MoM pg 67 has penalties for the Forsaken Mage. For a non-mage OCC who is presumably picking up even less magic here and there, I'd say penalties would be even more severe. Perhaps:
- PPE base no greater than 30, no levelling increase, no PPE absorption
- PPE cost to cast double
- range, duration and damage half
- no spells higher than 4th level
- no rituals, no scroll conversion, no cauldron, no LL drifting or rejuvenation
- no new spells on levelling, buy spells only

3) they would then develop magical abilities (if not prohibited in #2) on the basis mentioned in my previous post. These could include minor abilities, such as seeing LLs and recognizing enchantments. Making charms and wards might require a larger skill slot requirement, as well as prerequisites like Art or Whittling.

Basically, it makes any mundane OCC potentially a watered down version of the Forsaken Mage, which itself is the watered down version of a Wizard. As mentioned, I would not allow this as GM in my games for mundane OCCs, but feel free to adapt for your own purposes.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Scroll Conversion: All wizards can do this; this is a special skill (mostly of use to Wizards and Alchemists, but other invocation-casters can use it) that makes you actively GOOD at it. Scroll Conversion requires the ability to learn spells from scrolls, and starts at 16% +3% per level. Wizards get a +8%, and +2% per level (i.e. this adds to their ability).

The text is a bit unfinished. will do a bit of a rewrite using terminology found in the gamebooks:
Spell Scroll Conversion Specialty: All users of the magical sciences have this ability. However, with this specialization lets a practitioner of the the magical sciences have a greater chance of learning a spell from spell scrolls. These practitioners gain +8% to their base skill score and +2% more per level when they gain a level of experience.

Common Spells: You know some basic invocations; Globe of Daylight, Sense Magic, Decipher Magic. You can be taught other spells, up to level two. You have no additional PPE for these spells, and have a spell strength of 10.

Common Magic speciality: This practitioner of magical sciences that has come to know a spell so well that they can cast it without use of their personal PPE. This is limited to spells that have a cost of less than 5 PPE and it take a CCR skill slot to gain this specialization.

Recognize Enchantment: 20% +3% per level. Those with recognize Enchantment as a class ability take this to get +20% (no per level increase)

Needs text that talks about if the char has this skill long with the Lore: Magic skill.

Recognize Magic: 10%, +2% per level. Those with Recognize Magic as a class ability take this to get +10% (no per level increase)

Needs text that talks about if the char has this skill long with the Lore: Magic skill.

Study of Power Words: 30% +5% per level. You still know the power words of your class (if any), but this gives you familiarity with other power words, their uses and associations. It goes far beyond just making the sounds... it's making the sounds correctly, at the right speed, while feeling the power behind them. This doesn't necessarily give you any magical abilities... mostly recognition of magical abilities.

Mystic Symbology: 60%+5% per level. You know the common mystic symbols and can correctly interpret them in their usual context. If you can read runes and symbols, you can probably make your way through a Diabolist's diary without getting tripped up by the occasional drawings of Hydras. This can also help interpret circles, but it doesn't actually let you draw them.

Recognize and Understand Circles: 10% +2% per level; those with the skill as a class ability get a +10% and +1% per level. Just like Diabolists, including +10% for protection circles
Use Magic Circles: Requires Power Words, Mystic Symbology, and Recognize and Understand Circles: 15% +2% per level; +10 for protection circles, those with the class ability get +15% to the skill. Like Diabolists, you can't make any circles, but you can use one that is active.

These are Magic CC powers already.

Identify Energized Wards: 15% +5% per level, or +15% if you know it from a class ability (no bonus per level, though). As per the diabolist ability.

This is a Magic CC power already

Create Alarm: You can try to make an Alarm ward, just like a Diabolist. Requires Power Words, ID Energized Wards, and Rune literacy. You know the Silent, Sound, and Magic alarms, and the colors. You can use these in combination with runes (such as excepting someone from the alarm by writing their True Name next to it). Chance is as ID Energized Ward (You've got the extra training to do this).

This is already a magic CC power.

Learn and Create Protection Circles: Requires Use Magic Circles and its prereq's: You can create and use protection circles that you have learned. Learning is done at 20% +4%, and requires some form of teacher or instruction... you can learn it from a book, or you can be taught it by a summoner or alchemist, but you can't sit down and figure it out on your own.

This is already covered with the getting more magic section of mages. As in The circle of protection is a spell.


It would be nice if you wouldn't just rip the class powers/abilities to make up specialization. Basically I oppose taking the different magic classes special abilities and just making them "specializations" that any magic user could take/acquire. It just makes those Character classes useless.

[kiralon]

I allowed players to get magic spells with perks, that let them cast the spells a certain number of time per day like the first ed wizard.
My non men at arms do not get autoparry, but i let them cast spells in combat.

[thorr-kan]

So, hey, let's play with the idea of these things being some way to spend skills to get better at magic stuff.

<SNIP!>

Now, you might say, "This is just letting people take the special abilities of other classes" and my answer is EXACTLY. Any wizard can learn to use a two-handed sword. Any Diabolist can learn HtH Expert. And, if so inclined, any Mercenary Warrior can learn a couple spells, or learn to figure out what the runes mean.

Cool! Another "skills as sooper-powers!" thread. I agree in principle, if not in exact details.

The Sorcerous Proficiencies from Nightbane: Through the Glass Darkly and Rifter #27 cover this ground. There's the Divination skill mentioned above, reskinned as Astrology and granting the possibility of working in BtS2. There's also BtS2's Meditation skill, which helps a user heal faster. There's also the Principles of Magic skill from TtGD as well as BtS2's bevy of Lore Skills, some of which could serve your purposes above.

A lot of the forum's users don't like anything the breaks from strongly-delineated OCC roles/abilities. That's fine as a general rule and for their games. But fantasy source material is rife with dabblers, dilettantes, half-baked cultists, and wayward apprentices. There's plenty of room in the Megaverse for skills to show that. They should just never be as powerful as an OCC ability.

I'll offer some specific critique later.

(And since I can't keep ForumNames straight from forum to forum, nor align them with RealNames, if you're the author of any of the above, just understand I'm trying to be thorough.)

[Library Ogre]

A lot of the forum's users don't like anything the breaks from strongly-delineated OCC roles/abilities. That's fine as a general rule and for their games. But fantasy source material is rife with dabblers, dilettantes, half-baked cultists, and wayward apprentices. There's plenty of room in the Megaverse for skills to show that. They should just never be as powerful as an OCC ability.

And part of my problem with this is that, as mentioned, learning to fight is treated dismissively. You don't take a weekend class and get Hand to Hand Expert; it's years of training. Ninjas and Superspies has HtH Expert adding 2 years to your starting age; HtH Martial Arts in N&SS is three years, and Tae Kwon Do (it's more "advanced" form, per N&SS) is 5-8 years. And this is without reckoning with weapon proficiencies and the like. Going from a page to knighthood might take 5-14 years (starting as a page at 7-13, getting knighted at about 18-21). Mysteries of Magic puts a magical apprenticeship at 4-15 years (PFRPG puts a wizard apprenticeship at 2-5 years, but also includes years of service to a wizard beyond that).

Or, hey, let's look at another mundane skill: Advanced Mathematics. If you have Advanced Math, you not only know arithmetic, but you also know algebra, geometry, trig and calculus. How long does it take to learn those? It's one skill selection.

A human wizard who took Body Building and Hand to Hand Expert is pretty close to the level of skill and toughness of a Knight, with the wizard's chosen weapon. Wizard: HtH Expert, 1d6+10 SDC, so about 13 SDC. Knight: HtH Expert, 3d6 SDC 10.5 SDC.

Is the Knight going to be better a better fighter in a lot of ways? Absolutely; right off the bat, he can use more weapons proficiently, and can wear armor with far fewer penalties, and has a broader array of physical skills to choose from. Put him on a horse and he'll annihilate the wizard in armed combat. But give them the same armor, the same weapon (the one the wizard is proficient in), and the same stats? The Wizard who trained to HtH Expert is going to be 3 SDC ahead of the knight.

The Half-Wizard and the Forsaken mage make being a mixed spellcaster your character's identity.... "This is what I do". These proficiencies make it a thing you have learned to do, but with not much more investment than it takes a wizard to be a decent fighter. And if the knight, perhaps from a magic/science background, spends a skill on "Common Spells"? Is he REMOTELY on par with the 1st level Wizard? Is he 3 PPE ahead of the 1st level Wizard? Do his 3 spells match the 13 a Wizard starts with? His 10 Spell Strength against the Wizard's 12?

Where did the Knight learn these abilities? Well, I'll point out that one of the canonical backgrounds for a knight is "Magic/Science". "Yeah, I learned some basic wizard stuff, but I really wanted to ride horses and hit people with sticks." Where else? Maybe from those Forsaken Wizards, or Half-Wizards?

[thorr-kan]

A lot of the forum's users don't like anything the breaks from strongly-delineated OCC roles/abilities. That's fine as a general rule and for their games. But fantasy source material is rife with dabblers, dilettantes, half-baked cultists, and wayward apprentices. There's plenty of room in the Megaverse for skills to show that. They should just never be as powerful as an OCC ability.

And part of my problem with this is that, as mentioned, learning to fight is treated dismissively. You don't take a weekend class and get Hand to Hand Expert; it's years of training. Ninjas and Superspies has HtH Expert adding 2 years to your starting age; HtH Martial Arts in N&SS is three years, and Tae Kwon Do (it's more "advanced" form, per N&SS) is 5-8 years. And this is without reckoning with weapon proficiencies and the like. Going from a page to knighthood might take 5-14 years (starting as a page at 7-13, getting knighted at about 18-21). Mysteries of Magic puts a magical apprenticeship at 4-15 years (PFRPG puts a wizard apprenticeship at 2-5 years, but also includes years of service to a wizard beyond that).

You're preaching to the converted, mate.

N&SS establishes that a skill slot of combat ability takes 1 year. The problem is, N&SS is a really old and niche game in Palladium's stable. But I agree with you on it, so we'll go with that. Let's also note N&SS establishes one Martial Art Power is worth one Skill Program, roughly 3-6 skills.

Nightbane's Sorcerous Proficiencies establish one skill slot is worth four incantations of levels 1-4. NB also establishes one skill slot is worth one psionic power.

So, using these published examples, you've got some guidelines on what kind of power level a skill should grant.

<SNIP!>A human wizard who took Body Building and Hand to Hand Expert is pretty close to the level of skill and toughness of a Knight, with the wizard's chosen weapon. Wizard: HtH Expert, 1d6+10 SDC, so about 13 SDC. Knight: HtH Expert, 3d6 SDC 10.5 SDC.<SNIP!>

<SNIP!> These proficiencies make it a thing you have learned to do, but with not much more investment than it takes a wizard to be a decent fighter. And if the knight, perhaps from a magic/science background, spends a skill on "Common Spells"? Is he REMOTELY on par with the 1st level Wizard? Is he 3 PPE ahead of the 1st level Wizard? Do his 3 spells match the 13 a Wizard starts with? His 10 Spell Strength against the Wizard's 12?<SNIP!>

No argument from me. This is one of the things I like about Palladium: there's character creation space between choosing a Race and choosing a Class. To paraphrase an old thought, anyone with these skills has some tricks. But up against a real practitioner, it's "Oh, that's cute." and you get eaten.

[thorr-kan]

<SNIP!>
Some Basic Ideas:

I'm assuming this batch of proficiencies has the Prerequisite: Must be of a spellcasting O.C.C.

Ritual Training: The character is trained to help in ritual magic; they can provide up to 70% of their PPE (rather than 50%), and do not count against the requirement for a ceremony requiring 10 people (so you if you have 20 people with ritual training, you just cast the ritual, getting 70% of all their PPE, without the need for literal song and dance).

I thought 70%, not 50% was the limit. Other than that, seems fine.

Scroll Conversion: All wizards can do this; this is a special skill (mostly of use to Wizards and Alchemists, but other invocation-casters can use it) that makes you actively GOOD at it. Scroll Conversion requires the ability to learn spells from scrolls, and starts at 16% +3% per level. Wizards get a +8%, and +2% per level (i.e. this adds to their ability).

Not earthshattering, but it lets other spellcasters be better than the wizard at conversion, though not as good as the diabolist. On the other had, it makes a wizard better at it than another caster who takes it.

Common Spells: You know some basic invocations; Globe of Daylight, Sense Magic, Decipher Magic. You can be taught other spells, up to level two. You have no additional PPE for these spells, and have a spell strength of 10.

On a par with Incantation Specialist from TtGD. I like this one; I'd allow it even for non-casters, with other skill prerequisites, though. Maybe Principles of Magic, Lore: Magic, and Lore: Magic Arcane.

Recognize Enchantment: 20% +3% per level. Those with recognize Enchantment as a class ability take this to get +20% (no per level increase)

Similar power as Lore: Magic. More powerful than that skill's ability, but lacking it's versatility. I'd keep this one.

Recognize Magic: 10%, +2% per level. Those with Recognize Magic as a class ability take this to get +10% (no per level increase)

Not specific to any other skill. Though I might make the percentage a bit higher.

Literacy: Runes: This is just an option for anyone to learn literacy skills in runes; they can't DO anything in particular with the runes... they can read and write them, and writing them in silver makes parchment invulnerable... but they are just a language this person can read.

Similar power to Lore: Magic, but conversely more powerful that that skill. I'd keep this as is.

Study of Power Words: 30% +5% per level. You still know the power words of your class (if any), but this gives you familiarity with other power words, their uses and associations. It goes far beyond just making the sounds... it's making the sounds correctly, at the right speed, while feeling the power behind them. This doesn't necessarily give you any magical abilities... mostly recognition of magical abilities.

All flavor. But again similar to Lore: Magic. More powerful than that skill's ability, but lacking it's versatility. I'd keep this one.

Mystic Symbology: 60%+5% per level. You know the common mystic symbols and can correctly interpret them in their usual context. If you can read runes and symbols, you can probably make your way through a Diabolist's diary without getting tripped up by the occasional drawings of Hydras. This can also help interpret circles, but it doesn't actually let you draw them.

Better than Lore: Magic and Principles of Magic, but not as versatile. I'd keep this one.

Recognize and Understand Circles: 10% +2% per level; those with the skill as a class ability get a +10% and +1% per level. Just like Diabolists, including +10% for protection circles (no additional bonus there for Diabolists... you know circles, but it's just that protection circles are easy).

Worse than Lore: Magic and Principles of Magic, but not as versatile. I'd boost the percentage.

Use Magic Circles: Requires Power Words, Mystic Symbology, and Recognize and Understand Circles: 15% +2% per level; +10 for protection circles, those with the class ability get +15% to the skill. Like Diabolists, you can't make any circles, but you can use one that is active.

About the same as Lore: Magic and Principles of Magic, but not as versatile. I'd keep this one.

Identify Energized Wards: 15% +5% per level, or +15% if you know it from a class ability (no bonus per level, though). As per the diabolist ability.

About the same as Lore: Magic and Principles of Magic, but not as versatile. I'd keep this one.

Create Alarm: You can try to make an Alarm ward, just like a Diabolist. Requires Power Words, ID Energized Wards, and Rune literacy. You know the Silent, Sound, and Magic alarms, and the colors. You can use these in combination with runes (such as excepting someone from the alarm by writing their True Name next to it). Chance is as ID Energized Ward (You've got the extra training to do this).

Chance? Otherwise, I like this one.

Learn and Create Protection Circles: Requires Use Magic Circles and its prereq's: You can create and use protection circles that you have learned. Learning is done at 20% +4%, and requires some form of teacher or instruction... you can learn it from a book, or you can be taught it by a summoner or alchemist, but you can't sit down and figure it out on your own.

I like this one, too.

<SNIP!>

All-in-all, very interesting ideas. Thank you very much for sharing!

[Library Ogre]

<SNIP!>
Some Basic Ideas:

I'm assuming this batch of proficiencies has the Prerequisite: Must be of a spellcasting O.C.C.

Nope. See discussion re: Hand to Hand Expert. Heck, the first sentence of Step Two of learning magic is "Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves to be impossible for most people."

Who doesn't have the outright magical skills? The people who can't do it (or didn't bother). Who does? People who can, and bothered.

Ritual Training: The character is trained to help in ritual magic; they can provide up to 70% of their PPE (rather than 50%), and do not count against the requirement for a ceremony requiring 10 people (so you if you have 20 people with ritual training, you just cast the ritual, getting 70% of all their PPE, without the need for literal song and dance).

I thought 70%, not 50% was the limit. Other than that, seems fine.

[/quote]

Page 181. 70% is drawing one person with knowledge and consent. 50% is ritual.

Scroll Conversion: All wizards can do this; this is a special skill (mostly of use to Wizards and Alchemists, but other invocation-casters can use it) that makes you actively GOOD at it. Scroll Conversion requires the ability to learn spells from scrolls, and starts at 16% +3% per level. Wizards get a +8%, and +2% per level (i.e. this adds to their ability).

Not earthshattering, but it lets other spellcasters be better than the wizard at conversion, though not as good as the diabolist. On the other had, it makes a wizard better at it than another caster who takes it.

What good does converting a scroll do if you can't cast spells?

Similar power as Lore: Magic. More powerful than that skill's ability, but lacking it's versatility. I'd keep this one.

I realized after writing this that several of the class abilities of wizards are mimicked in Lore: Magic.

Create Alarm: You can try to make an Alarm ward, just like a Diabolist. Requires Power Words, ID Energized Wards, and Rune literacy. You know the Silent, Sound, and Magic alarms, and the colors. You can use these in combination with runes (such as excepting someone from the alarm by writing their True Name next to it). Chance is as ID Energized Ward (You've got the extra training to do this).

Chance? Otherwise, I like this one.

Learn and Create Protection Circles: Requires Use Magic Circles and its prereq's: You can create and use protection circles that you have learned. Learning is done at 20% +4%, and requires some form of teacher or instruction... you can learn it from a book, or you can be taught it by a summoner or alchemist, but you can't sit down and figure it out on your own.

Some of the previous ones existed largely just to be prerequisites for these two. No chance to do it, though the circles might take some work to learn. You've learned how to do it, just like a spellcaster has learned a spell. If you sit down and draw your Alarm and put in the PPE, you have a functioning alarm. If you draw your protection circle and put in the PPE, you have a protection circle.

I'd probably add that the Circles should include a simple protection circle.

[thorr-kan]

<SNIP!>
Some Basic Ideas:

I'm assuming this batch of proficiencies has the Prerequisite: Must be of a spellcasting O.C.C.

Nope. See discussion re: Hand to Hand Expert. Heck, the first sentence of Step Two of learning magic is "Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves to be impossible for most people."

Who doesn't have the outright magical skills? The people who can't do it (or didn't bother). Who does? People who can, and bothered.

Fair enough.

I agree that magic is a skill that can be learned. I think learning it should be more than learning advanced HtH skills (not N&SS forms), but still achievable using skill slots. Being a good HtH combatant, by skill choices, requires some investment HtH and Physical skills. I think being a spellcaster, by skill choices, should require more investment in the requisite skills. The former is physical and mental development. The latter is physical and mental and...something more; spiritual maybe? (Not quite the word I'm looking for.)

But that's a design difference for another discussion. I'll follow up on the rest later.

(And don't get the impression that I'm trying call Wrong Hurting Fun here. When I play, I prefer things to ready for me to just create a PC and go. When I DM, I very rarely do any homebrewing, though I'll mix-and-match modules from compatible rulesets. So design discussions like this are 98% theoretical to me. But I find them fascinating. I'm having fun!)

[Library Ogre]

(And don't get the impression that I'm trying call Wrong Hurting Fun here. When I play, I prefer things to ready for me to just create a PC and go. When I DM, I very rarely do any homebrewing, though I'll mix-and-match modules from compatible rulesets. So design discussions like this are 98% theoretical to me. But I find them fascinating. I'm having fun!)

We cool.

[Library Ogre]

Another, inspired by a thread that I think started here and got moved to Guild of Magic and Psionics:

Healer:
The spellcaster is especially adept at healing magics. When using spells which heal damage, an additional die is added to all healing if the character makes a successful First Aid roll. With a successful Medical Doctor roll, healing is doubled.

[Library Ogre]

Elemental Adept (For non-warlocks)
Perhaps you have a touch of warlock in your soul, but you find a certain kind of elemental magic easier than others do. Choose one element. When you cast a spell, use a ward, or create some other form of magic or psionics involving that element, you consider your level one higher for the purposes of effects.

[Curbludgeon]

I really like a lot of what I'm seeing.

I think one question for me is how much should a dedicated caster be able to allocate skills towards such. If the balance point is a wizard being able to put every skill into some sort of proficiency then it makes less than absolute efforts come across as mechanical half measures. Admittedly an arbitrary maximum just changes the specifics on how one might game the system. Perhaps some of it could be built into class features, such that a wizard is likely to spend fewer skill slots on magic proficiencies than a non-caster class choosing to lean into being a half-wizard.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To fit into the current proficiency forms there should also be new penalties to go with these copycat proficiencies.

Overall this topic would be better if you were inventing new ideas for the proficiencies instead of copying what was already in the books somewhere. The elemental Prof. has already been published.

[thorr-kan]

So, hey, let's play with the idea of these things being some way to spend skills to get better at magic stuff..

What type of skills were you consider? OCC Related/Other/Elective or Secondary? Or either?

I think one question for me is how much should a dedicated caster be able to allocate skills towards such. If the balance point is a wizard being able to put every skill into some sort of proficiency then it makes less than absolute efforts come across as mechanical half measures. Admittedly an arbitrary maximum just changes the specifics on how one might game the system. Perhaps some of it could be built into class features, such that a wizard is likely to spend fewer skill slots on magic proficiencies than a non-caster class choosing to lean into being a half-wizard.

I would say, let'em spend as many skills as they want. The better the PC is at magic, the worst the PC is at everything. Choices have consequences

[kiralon]

I would say, let'em spend as many skills as they want. The better the PC is at magic, the worst the PC is at everything. Choices have consequences

Problem is that you only need a few skills to survive, and even less if you are in a group.

[thorr-kan]

I would say, let'em spend as many skills as they want. The better the PC is at magic, the worst the PC is at everything. Choices have consequences

Problem is that you only need a few skills to survive, and even less if you are in a group.

My (anecdotal) experience over several decades and groups run counter to that. Specialized characters become fishfood.

[kiralon]

Lol, mine is the opposite and if magic could be gotten with skills in first ed rangers get 8 elective and 10 secondary skills at lvl 1, and a priest gets 6/6. How much magic does 2 elective and 4 secondary skills get you, or for second ed a mercenary fighter gets like 25 skills at level 1 and a wizard gets like 17 or so. How much magic does 8 skills get you.
If you cant get by on a limited amount of skills how do priests and wizards survive.

[Hotrod]

I like the idea of magic skills and proficiencies in concept, and I'm enjoying the discussion so far. If I were to put something like this together, I wouldn't necessarily make skills that could transform men-at-arms into basic psychics or mages. That's an interesting idea worth exploring, but I rather like the idea of making each class more of an undisputed master of its specialty first, and allowing some hybridizing second.

My preferred approach would be to make existing non-combat skills valuable to mages and psychics. I'd try to take a minimalist approach and have certain non-combat technical/communication/science/scholar skills grant certain bonuses or provide level-dependent bonuses. I'd try to use already-existing skills as much as possible.

+Crafting, writing/literacy, cryptography, and artistic skills might grant bonuses to symbol-based ritual magic,as the symbol mage becomes more adept at focusing thoughts into written and symbolic forms.
+Languages might help spoken incantations by increasing the level for single-action incantations, as the mage learns to speak strange and complex sounds more fluently.
+Public speaking might help increase the range or duration of spells, as the mage learns to convey more meaning, nuance, and emphatic power through the spoken word.
+Theatrical skills like sing/dance and playing musical instruments might grant bonuses to ritual spell magic.
+Mathematics and astronomy might help increase P.P.E. recovery and grant bonuses to the P.P.E. base (or reduce spell costs), as the mage learns to quantify and manipulate P.P.E. in a more structured and efficient way. This could also apply to psychics and I.S.P.

Though I'd mostly want to use existing skills to enhance magic and psionics, I would add a few additional skills:
+I'd add a W.P. Magic Targeting that would provide bonuses to strike for magical effects like fireballs and bolts of ____. This would also work for the appropriate psionics.
+I'd a telekinesis version of each W.P., which would give bonuses to strike and parry with telekinesis-based attacks for that specific weapon type in addition to bonuses inherent to telekinesis. Taking it would enable an automatic parry for that type of weapon in a telekinetic mode. For those weapons held in hand, it could combine its bonuses with regular W.P.'s, so that a swordsman with W.P. Sword and W.P. Sword (TK) could lend telekinetic strength and speed to his own attacks, gaining great proficiency for a short period of time, or a bowman could guide arrows to a target. These W.P. (TK) skills would also apply to the appropriate psionics.

It might be fun to try writing up a T.K. warrior with the above skills as its own O.C.C.

I would also make the Alchemist O.C.C. playable as a jack-of-all-magic-trades that will never be as accomplished in any one area as those who specialize in one discipline and has less P.P.E.. This class's focus would be on acquiring the knowledge and components needed to craft magic items. Rifts has plenty of magic crafting O.C.C.'s; building that into PF seems like a reasonable step at this point.

[Library Ogre]

I think one question for me is how much should a dedicated caster be able to allocate skills towards such. If the balance point is a wizard being able to put every skill into some sort of proficiency then it makes less than absolute efforts come across as mechanical half measures. Admittedly an arbitrary maximum just changes the specifics on how one might game the system. Perhaps some of it could be built into class features, such that a wizard is likely to spend fewer skill slots on magic proficiencies than a non-caster class choosing to lean into being a half-wizard.

TBH, I don't have one in mind. "How many Weapon Proficiencies should someone be allowed to take" is my way of thinking.

Design them to limit overlap and stacking (the classic "Can I use WP Blunt AND WP Staff bonuses together on the same weapon"?).

So, hey, let's play with the idea of these things being some way to spend skills to get better at magic stuff..

What type of skills were you consider? OCC Related/Other/Elective or Secondary? Or either?

Hadn't, really. I'd lean towards no restriction, but I've noted that option usually meant "I took all my WP as secondary skills because there's no reason not to."

Personally, I've worked up a couple skills that give bonuses to PPE and ISP, and have the secondary skill versions give less.