Noble titles and rank.

[pblackcrow]

A man USUALLY gets promoted from commoner to knight (but it is usually the 3rd + son of a noble that gets the title), to baronet, to lord, to baron, to viscount, to count, to earl, to marquess, to duke if they then merry into the royal family but can't hold the title of archduke, prince, or king; unless you are adopted into these roles or marry into.

And here is where things get a bit confusing...While a knight and baronet have "retainers" to serve under them, they can't appoint any title...however, A baron and a lord can appoint knights, a viscount can appoint knights and baronets, a count can appoint knights to barons and lords, an Earl can appoint knights to viscounts, same with a marquesses, a duke can not appoint a Marquess without the rulers go ahead, but an archduke can, and can also approve dukes.

As far as influence goes, that will depend on the individual, and where he chooses to focus his attention. Example: As a knightmage, I was effectively the secret spy master for the Earl, who controlled 2 counties, and wanted a more "hands on approach"...Sent to see how the lesser nobles were handling the people and funds in the county of Rasper and other things. I acted as his "retainer" for 5 weekend sessions (mind you, these weekend games and lasted from 7pm - to 11 on Friday, 10am - 11 on Saturday, and 10am-9 on average...plus, they were solo adventures and things go so much quicker.), and I was appointed to the title of Baronet, and given one of the small hamlets and a village that were being rebuilt by a baron along a river. I continued my job as spy master, although my job was no longer a secret one. Well, the baron over me knew it. Knew that I was responsible for his cousin, the viscount, execution and his sister's fall from grace. So, I sent faeries to spy on him and his disgraced sister's son (she was in in a plot with the viscount, but not as deeply involved.), Alexander, who he took control over at age 13, after her fall from nobility. Um, the baron actually came to me for advice about 4 or 5 times as a baronet, and to see what my spies had told me anything about the river pirates. But his sister's son was a thug, a burt, and a bully. Until my gryphon tattoo sorta ended him. But, we will save that story for another time. As my lunch brake is ending soon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would of said that When a commoner get ennobled the lowest rank is to a knight.

Lord is not a rank, it is and address. Like in My lord, or m'lord. But this is an address given from a commoner to any noble. (except to those addressed as 'sir' [knight] or 'your grace'/'your majesty' [monarch]).

[pblackcrow]

It is when there is a title attached, such as Lord of Parliament.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Lord of <place> is saying where the noble is lord of. example: Baron Vladimir Harkonen, Lord a Giedi Prime

'Lord of Parliament' is like saying 'speaker of the house' or 'Prime Minister'.

That is unless all the Lords that are active in the House of Lords in Parliament are addressed as Lord of Parliament.

[pblackcrow]

Please educate yourself a bit more on the title of Lord of Parliament before continuing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_P ... 20viscount.

[pblackcrow]

also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laird Though, for the sake of game play, make the Lord the title for clan leaders and the like.

[pblackcrow]

Then below knights, you have the ranking of esquire, gentleman, Lord of the manor, squire, yoeman, page,

[glitterboy2098]

Then below knights, you have the ranking of esquire, gentleman, Lord of the manor, squire, yoeman, page,

this.
Landed Gentry- (a strata of land owners without noble title)
Lord/Lady of the Manor: landholder of a rural estate, usually one belonging to higher nobility. originated with the anglo-saxons.
Esquire: landed gentry above a gentleman but below a knight. originated in the early modern period with the first use being in the 16th century. prior to this would have been uncommon since it largely grew out of the post black plague social upheavals that allowed easier access to obtaining land via wealth rather than feudal service.
Gentleman: generally filled by younger sons of nobility, tend to have lands but no titles. didn't really exist as a class until the 15th century, prior to that it was more of a courtesy title for all nobility.

in fantasy settings these ranks could be used even in a more medievalish setting, as a way to add layers of feudal rewards (and administration) below that of barons and knights (i mean, LOTR did it). a gentleman or esquire might be a person given oversight of a large town or several smaller towns within a nobles landhold, with reward of a bit of land for the person to use for their own home and income, but no military service expected. (beyond facilitating the muster of a volunteer retinue or town militia should the landholder be called to war)
it would also be the kind of small land gift that could be used to reward player characters without unbalancing their group budgets or shifting their focus from adventuring.. a gift of a house and some land (probably farmland or pastureland.) plus whatever servants are needed to run it. would give the players a "home base" to return to, as well as possibly a small amount of regular income they could draw on when they are passing through. toss in an NPC head servant (a majordomo) to run the place while they are gone, and you can avoid most of the hassle of record keeping too. plus that would give the GM more hooks for adventures.

Yeoman though wasn't a proper rank.. it was a class of the peasantry. those peasants which worked their own property and not that of others. they tended to form the bulk of the common soldiery in medieval and early modern wars, since they had enough potential income from their land (farms mainly, sometimes herding) that they could afford the basics of a soldiers gear (bow, spear, a knife, basic shield, and sometimes thick cloth for armor.) they also tended to have a lot of kids (to work their land, farms are manpower intensive things) or extended families who can keep an eye on the land while many of the men and older boys go off to fight in a campaign. this is also why so many armies suffered a lot of desertion during prolonged campaigns near their own borders.. the soldiery heading home to check on the farm after being away too long. they tended to exist outside the usual social strata of both the common folk and the nobility. they owned land, so they had some of the benefits nobles got. but they weren't part of the feudal rank structure.
as far as rank goes, Yeomen were a bit above a Page (a term for a noblemans servant) but below a Squire (a military servant, often an apprentice position for an prospective knight)

peasants proper were farmers who worked other people's lands. but, and this is the big but, they did not belong to said land. that is, they did not fall under laws and conditions that made them completely tied to the land and its owner. those were called Serfs. serfs usually came about because of debts, indentured servitude, or sometimes just contracts. they were not property in themselves (they could not be bought or sold) but when the land changed hands, they went with it, and they could not move away or travel without a ton of restrictions and permissions.
below that of course were the outright slaves.

[pblackcrow]

Correct...and there are more titles and social ranks, but as far as game play is concerned my group just stick with those. We could break the peasantry down slightly more though into: at the top of course are the guildmaster, the servants to nobles who were trained by the churches (if you were trained by the priesthood at a young age you could be a valuable scribe, scrivener, singer, archivist, etc), guildman, townsman, villager, farmer/skilled worker of just 1 trade. I picture villagers as being rather like they are depicted in Warlords of Russia. Having multipul everyday skills and about 2 truly trade worthy skills. Townsmen, I see as more skilled craftsmans or textile workers and things of that nature, just under a guildman's who offers master quality work.

[pblackcrow]

Esquires: originally men aspiring to knighthood, they were the principal attendants on a knight. After the Middle Ages the title of Esquire (Esq.) became an honour that could be conferred by the Crown, and by custom the holders of certain offices (such as barristers, lord mayor/mayor, justices of the peace, and higher officer ranks in the armed services) were deemed to be Esquires.

Gentlemen: possessors of a social status recognised as a separate title by the Statute of Additions of 1413. Generally men of high birth or rank, good social standing and wealth, and who did not need to work for a living, were considered gentlemen.

[ShadowHawk]

Finally found this post!!! I have been looking for it for a couple of hours. I do not like the new search.

Shannon, I know you have gone over this stuff time and time again with me, but is there a difference in the size of land a Lord and a baronet might have? I have lost the notes, Could you please explain the subtle differences between slave, serf, and peasant, and freeman, guildsman, and yeoman...And could the yeoman ever grow to be considered lords? Also the difference between a patroon, a baronet, and a lord in your? Also, the difference between clan, tribal, and Feudal governments?

[pblackcrow]

This is just for gaming purposes, but a lord would own or have control over a part of a village or a small town. Barons have control of 1-4 villages, Where as a baronet doesn't have to be awarded land. If they buy their way into nobility they have to be able to house care for so many of the king's men on the land they already own. However, the men are to help the baronet, and the baronet is to keep them trained and ready. But a Baronet can control a hamlet.

Slave have no rights, but were tax exempt in places like Russia and England. There were also indentured servants, but they were treated a bit differently. Interesting fact, the Norman conquest freed some of the slaves and promoted the notion of serfdom. Serfs have a few more rights, but were more or less tied to the land. Peasants have a rights. Freeman were usually townsmen, who were usually a part of a guild. Yeomen were land owners, who owned a farm and paid taxes.

Yes, a yeoman could grow in power, usually if also a member of a guild. And their are records of a yeoman who married a nobel and produced a queen of england. He became either a count or something. I forget the details though.

Patroons control the least amount of men and land.

Way too many details to put on this right now.

[The Dark Elf]

Lot's of useful knowledge.

To add. It's also a fake world so you can amend as you see fit. Using IRL is a solid basis but don't forget to suit your world version of Palladium and you players.