Walling off the Vampire Kingdoms with moats & other barriers

[Hawk258]

At least a water bombing run nightly pushes the vampire out, as long as you don't "leave" them a place to return too (which the 12,000 gallons is going to scare the hell out of everyone and limit deaths to actual vampires.

As long as hunters take that into account they can likely keep them out and push the "organized" portion south.

That leaves the independent vampires in much smaller groups. Forcing them to being more subtle.

Per village:
You take out packs of wild, that's 1d10 to 2d10 in 1 run.

You take out 1d4 secondary.

And a 50% of taking out a master.

Which masters and secondary vampires don't "hunt" persey. They lure and prey on small non-combatants. Using various "social" gatherings or seduction.

That's going to be difficult to do if someone keeps raining on your parties.

El Paso has at least 300 vampires alone. I am sure that a surprise water bombing would cut that number real quick.

[Hawk258]

Though if you really must keep vampires out, set up automatically water sprayers on your doors In town. If it sprays a vampire and they start melting stake the Ba$/ard and feed his body to the incinerator and put the head on a spike out front.

[Axelmania]

Vampires can wear ponchos, I would think. They could be harder to deal with than Unbreakable Bruce because you have to submerge them in a river, not a swimming pool.

wait, why would magic users be high priority for vampire conversion?

Any who know healing spells would be a priority, because the PPE required to heal a gallon of blood will regenerate faster than a gallon of blood.

mages being effective against vampires sounds like a reason to kill, not much of a reason to turn them.

Food supply aside, I think mages probably have more use in protecting vampires against their vulnerabilities than actually killing vampires.

[eliakon]

Well one of the issues that isn't pointed out is that the VI actually have far more enemies that it appears.

And the VI controls the leylines on its nexus and that's also an issue you seem to forget. So a leyline walker isn't likely to be moving anyone anywhere even if associated with the Vampires.

I didn't forget anything.
They are living on it yes. But they are not "controlling it" in any way. They can't stop people from using it, and in fact the ley lines are the biggest weakness of the VI and a huge backdoor one can use to kill one.

EDIT: It was brought to my attention that they do control the nexus. And that this control prevents others from using it as a dimensional doorway and that you can only draw 1/3 the normal PPE from it. My error there.

Add in as long as a vampire intelligence performs the ritual correctly he doesn't have to be there either.

what ritual are you talking about?

You aren't sneaking up on him, you can't assassinate him.

I have no idea what this is talking about here. If your making a commando raid, on the VIs lair, where you then douse it with holy water until it dies... then it was assassinated.

Yes the vi needs to be killed, but if it were so easy why hasn't Reed done it? Or AMC? Or The Atlantians, ect, ect, ect?

Because the NPCs in the books all juggle so many idiot balls that its amazing that they can do anything else with their hands.
Seriously, the fact that every NPC faction in the game is riddled with conspiracies and traitors with the most thread bare of disguises, meanwhile not a single faction or NPC group has the slightest sense of self preservation nor apparently any institutional memory as they will simply ignore hundreds of years of identical actions because the plot requires that they never change in any way.
That is why no NPC does it... because in Palladium NPCs can't solve anything, only PCs can.

Doc Ried though doesn't want to solve the vampire problem. He wants to maintain the status quo where he is the hero. Actually getting rid of the vampires would render him obsolete and dry up the idolatry he craves.

The Atlantians are just flat out idiots. They are all about showboating and demonstrating to the 'lesser races' how the 'master race' must protect the naïve helpless children. They are too obsessed with proving that they are superior to actually get anything done. This is why they do things in the absolutely worst way possible instead of the most efficient. But they do it in ways that allow them to show off their personal prowess and act like superior snobs.
The AMC is pretty bad at this to be honest. While they claim to be professionals and ridicule others who call themselves vampire hunters, their equipment isn't even barely adequate since they self cripple themselves in several areas; their tactics are a joke; their strategy isn't even a joke; they have absolutely no intelligence or reconnaissance assets worthy of the name, and actively shun the one form of reconnaissance that can work here; and they have next to no ideas about how to do anything other than grandstand and showboat... basically they are the perfect example of an Atlantian fighting force.

Because you have to get through the cannon fodder first
And until you do that, you aren't likely to get with in 10 miles of the pyramid he is in to do anything.

Or you simply teleport directly to the pyramid in the first place.

So at this point killing the vi without cutting down its troops is a suicide mission.

Even if you want to cut down the troops, you need to do it in a way that will actually cut them down.
Dropping water from helicopters on villages isn't going to do it.
It will just make the vampires angry.
Unless you have a way to force the vampires to sit around, outside with no cover night after night so that you can bomb them into oblivion... in which case I would be fascinated to hear what you plan.
Because villages will provide things like houses which they can be inside. Not to mention if they simply have on a poncho that will keep most of the water off of them right there...

Trust me... you need 65 HPs of damage every 15 seconds to the main body after accounting for regenerative healing you only do 5 hit points. It would take 1,700 attacks without the vampire familiar, without the masters and secondaries, and without the human minions, slaves, and other creatures they can summon and control. Unless you do a full daylight run, force the VI out into the sun (destroy its pyramid) and cut his powers and abilities 75% you don't have a snowballs chance.

You would have better luck assassinating Emperor Prosek. At least he doesn't regenerate.

Or you need one attack that does 3d6x1940 which is the damage of a Hydrokinetic throwing 10 gallons of holy water from a backpack onto a VI. If those odds aren't to your liking, try 20 gallons. Or fifty.

You don't have to sit there and whittle things away with your 3d6 laser you know. You can pull out the big stuff.

[Hawk258]

Page 32-33 WB01 VK(r)

malignant Vampire Intelligence is such a master of di-
mensional travel, and so powerful, that once it has claimed a ley
line nexus as the location of its lair, it dominates and controls
the nexus. This means no other being can use that nexus as a di-
mensional gateway or draw on its usual energies. Only one third the nonnal ley line energy can be drawn upon by beings other
than the Intelligence. With the dimensional aspect of the nexus
under the control of the Vampire Intelligence, nothing can enter
or leave through the nexus Rift unless the Vampire Intelligence
allows it. This level of control is accomplished, in part, by the
Intelligence's ability to syphon the magic energy into itself, feed-
ing on it, and thereby controlling the flow of mystic energy. The
stone pyramid helps to focus and control the flow of magic at the
nexus point and along the connecting ley lines.

Also there are at least 6 vampire intelligence known in rifts currently. Meaning 12000 vampires at the absolute minimum exist. (2500 are needed for an intelligence to enter the dimension)

[eliakon]

Page 32-33 WB01 VK(r)

malignant Vampire Intelligence is such a master of di-
mensional travel, and so powerful, that once it has claimed a ley
line nexus as the location of its lair, it dominates and controls
the nexus. This means no other being can use that nexus as a di-
mensional gateway or draw on its usual energies. Only one third the nonnal ley line energy can be drawn upon by beings other
than the Intelligence. With the dimensional aspect of the nexus
under the control of the Vampire Intelligence, nothing can enter
or leave through the nexus Rift unless the Vampire Intelligence
allows it. This level of control is accomplished, in part, by the
Intelligence's ability to syphon the magic energy into itself, feed-
ing on it, and thereby controlling the flow of mystic energy. The
stone pyramid helps to focus and control the flow of magic at the
nexus point and along the connecting ley lines.

Yes, your point?
No really your point?
so don't use it as a dimensional gate way, and don't draw on it for energy.
You can still ley-line phase down the line for your surprise party.
Because ley-Line Phasing is not a dimensional gateway you see...it would be like asking if immunity to fire made you immune to lasers.

[Hawk258]

You use your tactics I'll use mine.

[dreicunan]

Page 32-33 WB01 VK(r)

malignant Vampire Intelligence is such a master of di-
mensional travel, and so powerful, that once it has claimed a ley
line nexus as the location of its lair, it dominates and controls
the nexus. This means no other being can use that nexus as a di-
mensional gateway or draw on its usual energies. Only one third the nonnal ley line energy can be drawn upon by beings other
than the Intelligence. With the dimensional aspect of the nexus
under the control of the Vampire Intelligence, nothing can enter
or leave through the nexus Rift unless the Vampire Intelligence
allows it. This level of control is accomplished, in part, by the
Intelligence's ability to syphon the magic energy into itself, feed-
ing on it, and thereby controlling the flow of mystic energy. The
stone pyramid helps to focus and control the flow of magic at the
nexus point and along the connecting ley lines.

Also there are at least 6 vampire intelligence known in rifts currently. Meaning 12000 vampires at the absolute minimum exist. (2500 are needed for an intelligence to enter the dimension)

You may have meant to say 15000, but that would have been wrong, too. All that there being at least 6 VIs means is that 6 vampire intelligences exist at a minimum. 2500 is the minimum to enter the dimension, but once the VI is in the number can drop far below that (I may be misremembering, but I thought that I could drop all the way to zero with no direct ill effect on the VI).

[The Beast]

Page 32-33 WB01 VK(r)

malignant Vampire Intelligence is such a master of di-
mensional travel, and so powerful, that once it has claimed a ley
line nexus as the location of its lair, it dominates and controls
the nexus. This means no other being can use that nexus as a di-
mensional gateway or draw on its usual energies. Only one third the nonnal ley line energy can be drawn upon by beings other
than the Intelligence. With the dimensional aspect of the nexus
under the control of the Vampire Intelligence, nothing can enter
or leave through the nexus Rift unless the Vampire Intelligence
allows it. This level of control is accomplished, in part, by the
Intelligence's ability to syphon the magic energy into itself, feed-
ing on it, and thereby controlling the flow of mystic energy. The
stone pyramid helps to focus and control the flow of magic at the
nexus point and along the connecting ley lines.

Also there are at least 6 vampire intelligence known in rifts currently. Meaning 12000 vampires at the absolute minimum exist. (2500 are needed for an intelligence to enter the dimension)

You may have meant to say 15000, but that would have been wrong, too. All that there being at least 6 VIs means is that 6 vampire intelligences exist at a minimum. 2500 is the minimum to enter the dimension, but once the VI is in the number can drop far below that (I may be misremembering, but I thought that I could drop all the way to zero with no direct ill effect on the VI).

Actually reducing it to zero forces the VI to leave the dimension, unless that's no longer applicable under the new version of them.

[Hawk258]

Page 32-33 WB01 VK(r)

malignant Vampire Intelligence is such a master of di-
mensional travel, and so powerful, that once it has claimed a ley
line nexus as the location of its lair, it dominates and controls
the nexus. This means no other being can use that nexus as a di-
mensional gateway or draw on its usual energies. Only one third the nonnal ley line energy can be drawn upon by beings other
than the Intelligence. With the dimensional aspect of the nexus
under the control of the Vampire Intelligence, nothing can enter
or leave through the nexus Rift unless the Vampire Intelligence
allows it. This level of control is accomplished, in part, by the
Intelligence's ability to syphon the magic energy into itself, feed-
ing on it, and thereby controlling the flow of mystic energy. The
stone pyramid helps to focus and control the flow of magic at the
nexus point and along the connecting ley lines.

Also there are at least 6 vampire intelligence known in rifts currently. Meaning 12000 vampires at the absolute minimum exist. (2500 are needed for an intelligence to enter the dimension)

You may have meant to say 15000, but that would have been wrong, too. All that there being at least 6 VIs means is that 6 vampire intelligences exist at a minimum. 2500 is the minimum to enter the dimension, but once the VI is in the number can drop far below that (I may be misremembering, but I thought that I could drop all the way to zero with no direct ill effect on the VI).

Actually reducing it to zero forces the VI to leave the dimension, unless that's no longer applicable under the new version of them.

Its stated that once on our plane of exist the don't need any vampires.

[Hawk258]

Page 32-33 WB01 VK(r)

malignant Vampire Intelligence is such a master of di-
mensional travel, and so powerful, that once it has claimed a ley
line nexus as the location of its lair, it dominates and controls
the nexus. This means no other being can use that nexus as a di-
mensional gateway or draw on its usual energies. Only one third the nonnal ley line energy can be drawn upon by beings other
than the Intelligence. With the dimensional aspect of the nexus
under the control of the Vampire Intelligence, nothing can enter
or leave through the nexus Rift unless the Vampire Intelligence
allows it. This level of control is accomplished, in part, by the
Intelligence's ability to syphon the magic energy into itself, feed-
ing on it, and thereby controlling the flow of mystic energy. The
stone pyramid helps to focus and control the flow of magic at the
nexus point and along the connecting ley lines.

Also there are at least 6 vampire intelligence known in rifts currently. Meaning 12000 vampires at the absolute minimum exist. (2500 are needed for an intelligence to enter the dimension)

You may have meant to say 15000, but that would have been wrong, too. All that there being at least 6 VIs means is that 6 vampire intelligences exist at a minimum. 2500 is the minimum to enter the dimension, but once the VI is in the number can drop far below that (I may be misremembering, but I thought that I could drop all the way to zero with no direct ill effect on the VI).

I am accounting for both losses and replacements. But in the grand scheme of things I think 2000 each is a fair estimate. Unless countermeasures move from "hunting" to full combat it's not likely to fluctuate much.

In fact the tribes do more damage to each other than "hunters" have from my perspective.

[Shark_Force]

wait, why would magic users be high priority for vampire conversion?

Any who know healing spells would be a priority, because the PPE required to heal a gallon of blood will regenerate faster than a gallon of blood.

mages being effective against vampires sounds like a reason to kill, not much of a reason to turn them.

Food supply aside, I think mages probably have more use in protecting vampires against their vulnerabilities than actually killing vampires.

- vampires don't rely on magic other than their own natural abilities. even the ones that used to be spellcasters tend to mostly leave that behind them once they become a vampire. so i doubt they really consider the use of magic in this. also, there aren't a huge number of spells that replenish blood specifically (in fact, i can't even think of one off the top of my head). most likely, any random ley line walker doesn't have a spell that will help in providing food at all.

- you know other people capable of carrying around portable sunlight to keep the vampires at bay? are they also likely to have powerful abilities capable of disabling or seriously injuring vampires in a single action? do those people also have the means to render someone highly resistant to vampiric mind control? can they equip multiple people with anti-vampire weaponry, and/or produce weapons for those people and make them more effective in a fight?

spellcasters have a lot of tools that are good in general and great against vampires in particular (though not necessarily every spellcaster will have every tool). there are comparatively few that are extremely effective at covering vampiric vulnerabilities for more than a few minutes at a time, and again: vampires don't generally think to use magic outside of their own abilities, even if that used to be their entire mindset before they became a vampire. so the few they have (i presume you're thinking of armour of ithan and such?) are not something they are inclined to consider; they don't use that kind of magic. they don't think about it. they don't covet it. they don't enact plans revolving around it. they're certainly not going to focus on recruiting those with access to it because of their magical abilities.

[Eagle]

The thing preventing people from whacking a Vampire Intelligence is that most people, even most vampire hunters, don't know about them. Yeah, it's all detailed in the sourcebooks for us, but the in universe knowledge is very limited. I don't remember how much Doc Reid is supposed to know, but I can't imagine that detailed information on VIs is supposed to be common knowledge.

Rifts sourcebooks are basically set up so that there are a bunch of adventures that are paused, ready to start when the players reach that section of the world. Nothing happens until the players get there, and then the fun begins. Or more accurately, backstory has been happening up to the point the players arrive, and then they get there at the time the sourcebook takes place. So everything is set up for the players to figure out the mystery, but the existing NPCs aren't going to take any action on that.

The vampires are like the Xiticix in that we can go through, read the book, and come up with strategies to take out their forces and eliminate the threat. In universe, however, that info is really really hard to come by. It's like watching a heist film (Oceans 11, I'm looking at you) and you wonder "where did they get the blueprints for the casino vault?" That stuff just ain't available on the internet. That's where the adventure part comes into play.

A half-dozen line walkers reading scrolls of Annihilate should make pretty quick work of a Vampire Intelligence. Have a Nega-Psychic or a Psi-Nullifier on hand to screw up any attempt by the creature to teleport away, and maybe a couple of souped-up Battle Magi to finish it off. Killing the Intelligence isn't that hard, once you find out that it exists and where it is hiding.

[eliakon]

The thing preventing people from whacking a Vampire Intelligence is that most people, even most vampire hunters, don't know about them. Yeah, it's all detailed in the sourcebooks for us, but the in universe knowledge is very limited. I don't remember how much Doc Reid is supposed to know, but I can't imagine that detailed information on VIs is supposed to be common knowledge.

Rifts sourcebooks are basically set up so that there are a bunch of adventures that are paused, ready to start when the players reach that section of the world. Nothing happens until the players get there, and then the fun begins. Or more accurately, backstory has been happening up to the point the players arrive, and then they get there at the time the sourcebook takes place. So everything is set up for the players to figure out the mystery, but the existing NPCs aren't going to take any action on that.

The vampires are like the Xiticix in that we can go through, read the book, and come up with strategies to take out their forces and eliminate the threat. In universe, however, that info is really really hard to come by. It's like watching a heist film (Oceans 11, I'm looking at you) and you wonder "where did they get the blueprints for the casino vault?" That stuff just ain't available on the internet. That's where the adventure part comes into play.

A half-dozen line walkers reading scrolls of Annihilate should make pretty quick work of a Vampire Intelligence. Have a Nega-Psychic or a Psi-Nullifier on hand to screw up any attempt by the creature to teleport away, and maybe a couple of souped-up Battle Magi to finish it off. Killing the Intelligence isn't that hard, once you find out that it exists and where it is hiding.

This is why I would suggest that my plans be carried out by one of the factions that is specifically stated to know about VIs.

It is also why my suggested solution for the Xitcix would not be ideal as it would deal with the threat as known not as printed.

[MadGreenSon]

- vampires don't rely on magic other than their own natural abilities. even the ones that used to be spellcasters tend to mostly leave that behind them once they become a vampire.

Which is, by the way, a huge Idiot Ball shoved into the vampire's hands to make them easier to deal with and seems to apply even to Necromancers who use magic to turn themselves into independent vampires.

That has always rankled me, it feels like it's saying my PCs aren't hero enough to handle challenging enemies that actually think and act in a practical manner.

[Axelmania]

Also there are at least 6 vampire intelligence known in rifts currently. Meaning 12000 vampires at the absolute minimum exist. (2500 are needed for an intelligence to enter the dimension)

Unless dropping below 2500 sent the intelligence back, I'm not sure there's any guarantee that there are still the required amount. We just know that at least 2500 existed at least 6 points in time.

[Blue_Lion]

Again how many magic users were displaced from tolkeen? .. a well organized effort could lead to a serious offensive that could result in the vampire kingdoms to rethink pushing further north.

The problem with magic users is they would be prime targets for recruitment as secondary vampires, and then you have magic-casting vampires.

Passive barriers do not stop invasions. Even if you build said barrier the vampires can have their thralls transport them a crossed then make more vampires on the other side.

There's no absolute guarantee with any approach, but if the only way across is via thrall transport, this is going to slow them down to the means of their thralls (easy to detect vehicles) rather than hard-to-detect flying rodents, floating mists or sprinting wolves.

Also there are likely some vampires that where shifters or ley line walkers that can use magic to get vampires past your front line.

Or simply literate ones who can read the 'Scrolls of Mystic Portal' created by the sombrero-wearing Demon Familiar sent by the vampire intelligence.

You can fight vampire incursions but unless you remove the source they will keep coming. The masters likely do not care that you kill some of the low level vampires they can be replaced in a matter of days.

They can only replace vampires so many times before depleting their food supply.

The only way to stop a vampire incursion is to take out the source the Vampire intelligence. Something much easier said than done as he will likely have a large force of vampire guards and thralls.

Killing the intelligence is the biggest guarantee, but I don't agree it's the only way to stop an incursion. Even delaying an incursion is technically stopping it.

No a slowing something down or delaying it does not technically stop it. While vehicles and people caring boxes are easier to detect it still requires the man power to detect. The Vampire kingdom boarder is way to big to for any force in rifts to stop them from crossing passive boarder. The delay to bypass your defense will likely only be a matter of hours,(the vampires kingdoms have lots of thralls and can make new ones quickly) in no way will it stop an incursion, and as the number of hours to set it up is longer than the hours needed to bypass makes it a waisted resource. (they could also have thralls destroy the barriers.)


Reducing the food supply by making more vampires is less of an issue when they are turning people behind enemy lines. Once they defeat the barrier makers they can move into less protected territories. They are not reducing the food supply in their home territory if a few vampires slip behind the line and then make new vampires in a few days to fight you. You then are loosing man power, and have to pull forces from other points to fight a vampire flanking move. Basically the vampires will win a war of atrittion. Also if food supply becaumes scares that would just increase the number of vampires that will fight to cross your barrier to get to the food you are guarding.


The only way to grantee you will you can stop an inclusion is to remove the source of the vampires.

[Shark_Force]

- vampires don't rely on magic other than their own natural abilities. even the ones that used to be spellcasters tend to mostly leave that behind them once they become a vampire.

Which is, by the way, a huge Idiot Ball shoved into the vampire's hands to make them easier to deal with and seems to apply even to Necromancers who use magic to turn themselves into independent vampires.

That has always rankled me, it feels like it's saying my PCs aren't hero enough to handle challenging enemies that actually think and act in a practical manner.

*shrug* they're basically not really the same person in any meaningful way the majority of the time. i mean, there are a very tiny number that retain some of their humanity, but a process that transforms you from not being a blood drinking monster that views human the same way we view cattle into something that *is* such a creature is by necessity going to do a lot of things to your mind.

they may have access to the same memories and such, but it really does kinda make sense that after the transformation, their habits and knowledge have been to some extent overwritten by vampire instincts because they are more like a demon created in a person's form that has stolen the person's memories than they are like the original person.

[Blue_Lion]

- vampires don't rely on magic other than their own natural abilities. even the ones that used to be spellcasters tend to mostly leave that behind them once they become a vampire.

Which is, by the way, a huge Idiot Ball shoved into the vampire's hands to make them easier to deal with and seems to apply even to Necromancers who use magic to turn themselves into independent vampires.

That has always rankled me, it feels like it's saying my PCs aren't hero enough to handle challenging enemies that actually think and act in a practical manner.

*shrug* they're basically not really the same person in any meaningful way the majority of the time. i mean, there are a very tiny number that retain some of their humanity, but a process that transforms you from not being a blood drinking monster that views human the same way we view cattle into something that *is* such a creature is by necessity going to do a lot of things to your mind.

they may have access to the same memories and such, but it really does kinda make sense that after the transformation, their habits and knowledge have been to some extent overwritten by vampire instincts because they are more like a demon created in a person's form that has stolen the person's memories than they are like the original person.

There is also a difference between not relying on something and not using it. Basically what that means is the vampires first go to answer will be his vampire powers. All vampire knee jerk instincts are to use his vampires powers. But they are still capable to use other powers, more so given time to think about it. Other powers would be seen as things of convince, something they might use to make things easier, but they can live without. When rushed they would be likely to use their vampire powers, but they have an IQ so with time to plan and think they would consider using things of convenience to help.

[MadGreenSon]

I get that vampires would prefer to rely on their vampireness first and foremost, but having them almost universally ignore and/or disdain, or whatever the relatively straightforward ways of mitigating their weaknesses when they are fighting people trained to go after those weaknesses is gimping them in the player's favor too much.

I do not hold with that, as my players found out when going up against vamps in games I run. You might get wild vamps or unsuspecting plebe vamps that try to blend in with nothing but water and wooden stakes, but serious warrior type vampires will wear enclosed MD armor and laugh at your squirt gun while beating you to death with your legs and calling in artillery on their own position.

(because of course they would, explosions are an inconvenience at best to a vampire and slaves can run artillery just fine.)

In my games, vampires looove high end explosives. The look on a vampire hunter's face when you trigger a bunch of fusion blocks is priceless.

[Eagle]

Wild vampires are little more than animals. They may have some ability to think and reason, but generally you're looking at a creature that can't keep it together for more than a few minutes. I have no problem believing that they don't really use magic except in one of those rare moments of clarity. Like maybe once per combat turn they could make an IQ check to see if they can remember they know magic. Then it grins at you, thinking "oh yeah, I used to know something that would work awesome here". But normally it's instinct first, second, and third.

Secondary vampires, on the other hand, should be able to behave far more like the people they used to be. They should be able to wear armor, use weapons, cast spells, etc. Of course that doesn't mean they always would -- armor prevents them from changing shape or turning into mist, and those powers are awesome. You should see vampire hunters' faces when you and a dozen friends float in and surround them as one giant cloud of mist. They start spinning around, looking behind them, and freaking out.

[MadGreenSon]

Wild vampires are little more than animals. They may have some ability to think and reason, but generally you're looking at a creature that can't keep it together for more than a few minutes. I have no problem believing that they don't really use magic except in one of those rare moments of clarity. Like maybe once per combat turn they could make an IQ check to see if they can remember they know magic. Then it grins at you, thinking "oh yeah, I used to know something that would work awesome here". But normally it's instinct first, second, and third.

Secondary vampires, on the other hand, should be able to behave far more like the people they used to be. They should be able to wear armor, use weapons, cast spells, etc. Of course that doesn't mean they always would -- armor prevents them from changing shape or turning into mist, and those powers are awesome. You should see vampire hunters' faces when you and a dozen friends float in and surround them as one giant cloud of mist. They start spinning around, looking behind them, and freaking out.

The one problem with vampires using spell magic of their own is that while they have more PPE than the average joe, they aren't exactly fat with it even if they were spellcasters before being vampires. They can easily supplement this with ley lines or sacrifices (killing people is hardly an obstacle) but it does cut into their abilities. Especially since any vamp spellslinger is gonna have only half their spells at half level as well as half PPE with no chance of getting more spells (which says weird things about a vampire's ability to learn, but oh well).

Better bet is to get a few young mages just starting out, make 'em mind slaves and push them to learn so they can supply spells, talismans, and scrolls. Scrolls would be especially handy for the would be vampire magic wielder since they need no spell knowledge nor PPE of their own, just the ability to read. Fear the smart Secondary or Master vampire with a binder full of scrolls.

Scrolls, talismans and TW items aren't a perfect measure by any means, but they can get the job done.

Wild vamps you expect to be just that, wild. The Master and Secondary vamps, on the other hand, should know better. Sure, catching them off guard is one thing, but if they know they're in for a fight, they should damn well make it a fight. This should be especially true when it comes to securing their territory, lairs, and food supply. They shouldn't be dumb about any of it.

I try and make a point to take the Idiot Ball away from as many NPCs as possible as much as possible, especially as concerns their own prosperity, survival, and chances of winning fights.

[Shark_Force]

again, the idiot ball isn't arbitrary here. they're not particularly rational because they aren't supposed to be. someone basically ripped out the human soul and shoved a demon in there, a tiny piece of a vampire intelligence, and that is what is driving them now. you may as well argue that birds can hold guns in their claws, and should therefore be armed with laser rifles. they are sapient, sure, but they are far more driven by instinct and emotion than humans (or, at the very least, their instincts and emotions point them in different directions from us). all of them. not just the wild vampires, every last one of them. they are not humans any more, they don't act like humans, they don't think like humans, they don't use tools like humans. they don't need to invent a tool to help them hunt, they are highly developed supernatural predators. they don't need to invent a tool to help them travel, they can just turn into a wolf or bat and fly around. they don't need to invent armour, the vast majority of all things in existence cannot harm them and even the things that do harm them they're remarkably resilient to.

they are not tool-using humans with extra powers, they are vampiric monsters with their own powers, driven by their own instincts, serving a master that ripped out the human inside, stole the memories, attached those to a shard of itself, and then crammed the resulting thing back inside the body as it was being twisted into a supernatural predator.

so no, there is no logic saying that they should all be using tools or magic, just like there is no logic in saying that humans should all be attempting to transform into undead supernatural predators.

[MadGreenSon]

again, the idiot ball isn't arbitrary here. they're not particularly rational because they aren't supposed to be. someone basically ripped out the human soul and shoved a demon in there, a tiny piece of a vampire intelligence, and that is what is driving them now. you may as well argue that birds can hold guns in their claws, and should therefore be armed with laser rifles. they are sapient, sure, but they are far more driven by instinct and emotion than humans (or, at the very least, their instincts and emotions point them in different directions from us). all of them. not just the wild vampires, every last one of them. they are not humans any more, they don't act like humans, they don't think like humans, they don't use tools like humans. they don't need to invent a tool to help them hunt, they are highly developed supernatural predators. they don't need to invent a tool to help them travel, they can just turn into a wolf or bat and fly around. they don't need to invent armour, the vast majority of all things in existence cannot harm them and even the things that do harm them they're remarkably resilient to.

they are not tool-using humans with extra powers, they are vampiric monsters with their own powers, driven by their own instincts, serving a master that ripped out the human inside, stole the memories, attached those to a shard of itself, and then crammed the resulting thing back inside the body as it was being twisted into a supernatural predator.

so no, there is no logic saying that they should all be using tools or magic, just like there is no logic in saying that humans should all be attempting to transform into undead supernatural predators.

That's perfectly canon. It's also an excuse for an idiot ball that makes them easier to kill. I don't assume that the heroes I'm running a game for need such a crippling of their enemies to be able to win.

Killing strong enemies is a sign of strong heroes. Weak villains, stupid villains, make for lesser heroes. I have no respect for that.

[Axelmania]

slowing something down or delaying it does not technically stop it.

We're probably getting a little too semantic here. After all, no vehicle ever truly 'stops' (becomes 100% motionless, because everything vibrates) at a stop sign, yet gets pretty close to the concept we represent with the word.

While vehicles and people caring boxes are easier to detect it still requires the man power to detect. The Vampire kingdom boarder is way to big to for any force in rifts to stop them from crossing passive boarder.

Manpower demands can be cut down on if you have AI reporting significant radar blips to technicians to send interceptions.

The delay to bypass your defense will likely only be a matter of hours,(the vampires kingdoms have lots of thralls and can make new ones quickly)

How many of those easily accessible thrall replacements are trained aircraft pilots, though?

in no way will it stop an incursion, and as the number of hours to set it up is longer than the hours needed to bypass makes it a waisted resource. (they could also have thralls destroy the barriers.)

Destroying barriers takes time, giving you time to respond and patrol the hole in the barrier until it is repaired. This would also expend the e-clips and MD weapons of thralls, and allow your forces to apprehend them to prevent future instances. It puts an economic drain on the vampire kingdoms to replace expensive MD weaponry.

Reducing the food supply by making more vampires is less of an issue when they are turning people behind enemy lines.

Which can't be done until they pass them, so this isn't helpful when you're conceptualizing thousands of thralls hurling themselves at the border.

Once they defeat the barrier makers they can move into less protected territories. They are not reducing the food supply in their home territory if a few vampires slip behind the line and then make new vampires in a few days to fight you.

Obviously one other major defense would be relocating southern towns further north, or better defending those communities. Slowing the trickle of vampires able to approach those towns makes defending them more feasible.

You then are loosing man power, and have to pull forces from other points to fight a vampire flanking move. Basically the vampires will win a war of atrittion. Also if food supply becaumes scares that would just increase the number of vampires that will fight to cross your barrier to get to the food you are guarding.

Fight how? Digging up soil to plug your rivers? This is the main threat, and why you need automated defenses to destroy soil bridges, which is why something like earth/water elementals or Splicers cannons would be helpful.

The only way to grantee you will you can stop an inclusion is to remove the source of the vampires.

A 10% chance of a 100% guarantee isn't as good odds as a 100% chance of a 50% guarantee.

[dreicunan]

again, the idiot ball isn't arbitrary here. they're not particularly rational because they aren't supposed to be. someone basically ripped out the human soul and shoved a demon in there, a tiny piece of a vampire intelligence, and that is what is driving them now. you may as well argue that birds can hold guns in their claws, and should therefore be armed with laser rifles. they are sapient, sure, but they are far more driven by instinct and emotion than humans (or, at the very least, their instincts and emotions point them in different directions from us). all of them. not just the wild vampires, every last one of them. they are not humans any more, they don't act like humans, they don't think like humans, they don't use tools like humans. they don't need to invent a tool to help them hunt, they are highly developed supernatural predators. they don't need to invent a tool to help them travel, they can just turn into a wolf or bat and fly around. they don't need to invent armour, the vast majority of all things in existence cannot harm them and even the things that do harm them they're remarkably resilient to.

they are not tool-using humans with extra powers, they are vampiric monsters with their own powers, driven by their own instincts, serving a master that ripped out the human inside, stole the memories, attached those to a shard of itself, and then crammed the resulting thing back inside the body as it was being twisted into a supernatural predator.

so no, there is no logic saying that they should all be using tools or magic, just like there is no logic in saying that humans should all be attempting to transform into undead supernatural predators.

That's perfectly canon. It's also an excuse for an idiot ball that makes them easier to kill. I don't assume that the heroes I'm running a game for need such a crippling of their enemies to be able to win.

Killing strong enemies is a sign of strong heroes. Weak villains, stupid villains, make for lesser heroes. I have no respect for that.

Interesting, because I have no respect for GMs who throw anything less than legions of Demi-god Scarecrows who all took ability 7 and became impervious to fire, pick magic using OCC here, and then all became cyber-knights (Sans the cyber-armor) for the free psi-sword and anti-tech combat, and who have all received the Gift of Knowledge from Yggdrasil. What, your players aren't capable of handling that?

[MadGreenSon]

Interesting, because I have no respect for GMs who throw anything less than legions of Demi-god Scarecrows who all took ability 7 and became impervious to fire, pick magic using OCC here, and then all became cyber-knights (Sans the cyber-armor) for the free psi-sword and anti-tech combat, and who have all received the Gift of Knowledge from Yggdrasil. What, your players aren't capable of handling that?

You're cute. That's cute.

Besides, everyone knows Demigod is basically it's own race and not a D&D style template that can be added to anything.

[eliakon]

again, the idiot ball isn't arbitrary here. they're not particularly rational because they aren't supposed to be. someone basically ripped out the human soul and shoved a demon in there, a tiny piece of a vampire intelligence, and that is what is driving them now. you may as well argue that birds can hold guns in their claws, and should therefore be armed with laser rifles. they are sapient, sure, but they are far more driven by instinct and emotion than humans (or, at the very least, their instincts and emotions point them in different directions from us). all of them. not just the wild vampires, every last one of them. they are not humans any more, they don't act like humans, they don't think like humans, they don't use tools like humans. they don't need to invent a tool to help them hunt, they are highly developed supernatural predators. they don't need to invent a tool to help them travel, they can just turn into a wolf or bat and fly around. they don't need to invent armour, the vast majority of all things in existence cannot harm them and even the things that do harm them they're remarkably resilient to.

they are not tool-using humans with extra powers, they are vampiric monsters with their own powers, driven by their own instincts, serving a master that ripped out the human inside, stole the memories, attached those to a shard of itself, and then crammed the resulting thing back inside the body as it was being twisted into a supernatural predator.

so no, there is no logic saying that they should all be using tools or magic, just like there is no logic in saying that humans should all be attempting to transform into undead supernatural predators.

That's perfectly canon. It's also an excuse for an idiot ball that makes them easier to kill. I don't assume that the heroes I'm running a game for need such a crippling of their enemies to be able to win.

Killing strong enemies is a sign of strong heroes. Weak villains, stupid villains, make for lesser heroes. I have no respect for that.

Interesting, because I have no respect for GMs who throw anything less than legions of Demi-god Scarecrows who all took ability 7 and became impervious to fire, pick magic using OCC here, and then all became cyber-knights (Sans the cyber-armor) for the free psi-sword and anti-tech combat, and who have all received the Gift of Knowledge from Yggdrasil. What, your players aren't capable of handling that?

I would like to point out that the "replaced the soul" bit?
That is new.
It is basically a retcon that they added in VKr that helps justify the idiot ball and to help justify killing the vampires...
....but it is totally brand new.

[dreicunan]

Interesting, because I have no respect for GMs who throw anything less than legions of Demi-god Scarecrows who all took ability 7 and became impervious to fire, pick magic using OCC here, and then all became cyber-knights (Sans the cyber-armor) for the free psi-sword and anti-tech combat, and who have all received the Gift of Knowledge from Yggdrasil. What, your players aren't capable of handling that?

You're cute. That's cute.

Besides, everyone knows Demigod is basically it's own race and not a D&D style template that can be added to anything.

Would my criticism of your tendentious pontifications regarding whose players are stronger be more pointed if I made the argument that the real idiot ball is in the hands of a GM that doesn't know how to make their vampires formidable foes without resorting to artillery strikes and fusion blocks? If it would help, I could make that argument instead.

[MadGreenSon]

Interesting, because I have no respect for GMs who throw anything less than legions of Demi-god Scarecrows who all took ability 7 and became impervious to fire, pick magic using OCC here, and then all became cyber-knights (Sans the cyber-armor) for the free psi-sword and anti-tech combat, and who have all received the Gift of Knowledge from Yggdrasil. What, your players aren't capable of handling that?

You're cute. That's cute.

Besides, everyone knows Demigod is basically it's own race and not a D&D style template that can be added to anything.

Would my criticism of your tendentious pontifications regarding whose players are stronger be more pointed if I made the argument that the real idiot ball is in the hands of a GM that doesn't know how to make their vampires formidable foes without resorting to artillery strikes and fusion blocks? If it would help, I could make that argument instead.

You can try, but I won't care. I run my games my way. <shrug> I feel that making vampires artificially stupid is training wheels, you don't. I'm fully willing to leave it at that because I can't be bothered to try and persuade you my way is best for you. Your way works for you, that's fine. For you. My way works for me. Live with it.

[dreicunan]

Interesting, because I have no respect for GMs who throw anything less than legions of Demi-god Scarecrows who all took ability 7 and became impervious to fire, pick magic using OCC here, and then all became cyber-knights (Sans the cyber-armor) for the free psi-sword and anti-tech combat, and who have all received the Gift of Knowledge from Yggdrasil. What, your players aren't capable of handling that?

You're cute. That's cute.

Besides, everyone knows Demigod is basically it's own race and not a D&D style template that can be added to anything.

Would my criticism of your tendentious pontifications regarding whose players are stronger be more pointed if I made the argument that the real idiot ball is in the hands of a GM that doesn't know how to make their vampires formidable foes without resorting to artillery strikes and fusion blocks? If it would help, I could make that argument instead.

You can try, but I won't care. I run my games my way. <shrug> I feel that making vampires artificially stupid is training wheels, you don't. I'm fully willing to leave it at that because I can't be bothered to try and persuade you my way is best for you. Your way works for you, that's fine. For you. My way works for me. Live with it.

So you want to insult the way other people do it by describing Palldium Vampires as being "artificially stupid" and "training wheels," then hide behind "oh, but to each their own" as though the reading comprehension of those on this site leaves them unable to see what you are doing? No, I'll call your insults to the way that others run their games for what they are.

[MadGreenSon]

So you want to insult the way other people do it by describing Palldium Vampires as being "artificially stupid" and "training wheels," then hide behind "oh, but to each their own" as though the reading comprehension of those on this site leaves them unable to see what you are doing?

Yes I do. It's absolutely hypocritical and I'm aware of that.

No, I'll call your insults to the way that others run their games for what they are.

Cool.

[Eagle]

Vampires should be run differently based on what kind of game you're playing. If you're in a relatively low powered adventure (playing things like an SDC guy in body armor with a laser pistol, Dog Boys, minor psychics, etc), then the stock Wild Vampires are dangerous enough. Being slobbering monsters who react almost totally on instinct, the GM has an excuse to not have them fight in the most lethal manner possible (to be clear, the vampires are the slobbering monsters, not the GMs, although sometimes that description might apply to them too). But if you're running around in Glitter Boys, or with Dragons or Demigods in the party, there's nothing wrong with having smarter enemies with more abilities.

I feel that sometimes Rifts sets hard and fast rules that really should be more campaign suggestions. Dropping a vamp's PPE down to low levels is one of those things. To me I think a mage that gets vamped should keep his PPE and basically become a special character. I know that's not exactly how it's written, but Rifts is almost unplayable strictly RAW.

[MadGreenSon]

Vampires should be run differently based on what kind of game you're playing. If you're in a relatively low powered adventure (playing things like an SDC guy in body armor with a laser pistol, Dog Boys, minor psychics, etc), then the stock Wild Vampires are dangerous enough. Being slobbering monsters who react almost totally on instinct, the GM has an excuse to not have them fight in the most lethal manner possible (to be clear, the vampires are the slobbering monsters, not the GMs, although sometimes that description might apply to them too). But if you're running around in Glitter Boys, or with Dragons or Demigods in the party, there's nothing wrong with having smarter enemies with more abilities.

I feel that sometimes Rifts sets hard and fast rules that really should be more campaign suggestions. Dropping a vamp's PPE down to low levels is one of those things. To me I think a mage that gets vamped should keep his PPE and basically become a special character. I know that's not exactly how it's written, but Rifts is almost unplayable strictly RAW.

Honestly, that's probably the best way to do it. Customizing the content to the game you're running is certainly practical. It puts more work on the GM, but GM's have plenty to do anyway and a little extra to guarantee quality is likely for the best.

to be clear, the vampires are the slobbering monsters, not the GMs

One would hope so.

EDIT: Honestly, I've been letting my personal feelings color my commentary too much on a lot of stuff here. More than anything it's important as a GM to run the game in such a way that it satisfies you as a GM as well as engages the players so that everyone at the table is entertained.

If that means changing things from RAW? Do it. If it means sticking to RAW and explaining things in a way that satisfies yourself and everyone as and when needed? Do that instead.

It's way too easy when online to get so wrapped up in one's own PoV that you start acting poorly. I've done it here and I apologize to all reading for doing so.

[Shark_Force]

I would like to point out that the "replaced the soul" bit?
That is new.
It is basically a retcon that they added in VKr that helps justify the idiot ball and to help justify killing the vampires...
....but it is totally brand new.

is it now? i happen to have bought the PDF of beyond the supernatural some time ago, which means i can fact check this kind of thing. the first edition of BtS, that is, not the newer one. copyright 1988, years before vampire kingdoms was written.

page 181 "One such dreadful power is the vampire. A complex being that can divide its life-force like an amoeba, to create an army of horrific, blood-sucking ghouls to feed upon humans. The eerie thing can fragment a part of its essence and send it through a dimensional rift or portal, or allow it to be summoned by a foolhardy practitioner of magic. Delivered into our world, the invisible life-force must bond with a living human to anchor itself to our dimension."

"The fool who accepts such a deal has his/her life-essence torn from its living shell of flesh and blood, and cast into the jaws of death. Room must be made for the body's new master. The lost soul who stooped to make such a agreement has the pleasure of knowing that it will be his or her image/likeness that will be known as a vehicle of power. That is all."

"But the first vampire, the true focus of the intelligence's fragmented essence, can fragment a piece of itself again and again into evil or corrupted people who willingly accept the gift (the curse) of vampirism. Just as it did to its first victim, the person's life-essence is destroyed and the vampire is born."

then here's what my nightbane book (copyright 1995, a few years after vampire kingdoms was written), which states that it is based on vampire kingdoms, has to say:

page 179 (regarding the master vampire):
"...destroys all vestiges of humanity."
"The master, as are all vampires, is reborn, or perhaps unborn. The transformed vampire no longer has anything in common with humankind, other than the human appearance." (note that this indicates a NEW creature)
"... the original human attributes and alignment are meaningless, entirely new attributes are rolled, an evil alignment selected, and a handful of skills retained/selected." (not retaining much from the original here, are we?)
"When thousands of vampires exist, all born from that first evil essence of the master..."

page 181 (regarding secondary vampires)
"The master vampire creates other vampires by a slow kill bite that transfers yet another fragment of the evil essence into another humanoid creature."
"Yet a tiny minority do successfully win their inner battle and retain some vestige of humanity" (note: a tiny minority have even a *vestige* of their humanity left once the essence has been transferred into them).

page 184, on the "slow kill" bite:
"On the third night, the victim is slain by having all his blood drained." (note: the victim is *dead*. not unconscious or in a trance or transforming, but dead).

page 184 (on vampires controlling each other):
"Vampires are in effect, an extended family linked by the shared essence of the vampire intelligence."
"Vampires who are extensions of other intelligences..." (funny word, that: extensions. they're not their own creature, they're parts of the vampire intelligence used to extend its reach).

i don't have vampire kingdoms to go through and check if there's anything more, but it sure doesn't look to me like the whole fragmented essence of the vampire intelligence thing is particularly new at all. perhaps not detailed explicitly the way it was in the first edition BtS (though the vampire definitely evolved since that book, given it says secondary vampires must be already corrupted or evil while nightbane doesn't mention that need and wild vampires aren't mentioned at all), but i'm really not inclined to look at the actual evidence and conclude that the concept of vampires being demonic fragments of the intelligence's essence fused into a human's dead body with some of the memories of the original human is anything really new. so far as i can tell, that's been part of palladium vampires since the earliest appearance that i have access to, at any rate, and at the very least it definitely was a thing well before vampire kingdoms was published, and remained a thing afterwards.

so no, i'm disinclined to agree that this is, in fact, anything even remotely new to the revised version. it was part of vampires before the original vampire kingdoms book was written. it was part of vampires in material based largely on the original vampire kingdoms book written a few years afterward. stands to reason it was probably part of vampires in the original vampire kingdoms book as well, just not as clearly stated.

also, just to be clear: you're not having vampires un-nerfed. you are buffing vampires. that is certainly your prerogative for your games, but don't come here and try and tell us that the rest of us are playing with the nerfed version if we don't share you're vision: we're playing with the official version that actually exists, that has existed for over 30 years, and which was always a fragment of a demonic monster living in a dead human's body. *you* are the one playing with the wonky vampires that have been modified.

and seriously, if you can't find a way to threaten the players with hordes of undead just because they actually have some genuine weaknesses, i don't know what to tell you.

[Blue_Lion]

slowing something down or delaying it does not technically stop it.

We're probably getting a little too semantic here. After all, no vehicle ever truly 'stops' (becomes 100% motionless, because everything vibrates) at a stop sign, yet gets pretty close to the concept we represent with the word.

I was talking about a vampire incursion not something moving so this seam irrelevant and petty.

A vampire incursion is a invasion of your territory delaying when it happens does not stop it from happening. It will still happen just at a latter time so was not technically stopped from happening. Also there could already be vampire advanced agents behind your barrier.

While vehicles and people caring boxes are easier to detect it still requires the man power to detect. The Vampire kingdom boarder is way to big to for any force in rifts to stop them from crossing passive boarder.

Manpower demands can be cut down on if you have AI reporting significant radar blips to technicians to send interceptions.

Radar in rifts is primally for detecting air targets even enhanced radar has problems detecting small ground targets. The US Mexico boarder is over 1900 miles long guarding that whole length is beyond any one power in rifts NA.

The delay to bypass your defense will likely only be a matter of hours,(the vampires kingdoms have lots of thralls and can make new ones quickly)

How many of those easily accessible thrall replacements are trained aircraft pilots, though?

Who said anything about flying I am talking about carring boxes of vampires a crossed your barrier that can be done by people, carts, ground vehiles or rafts. You seam to be countering a straw man.

in no way will it stop an incursion, and as the number of hours to set it up is longer than the hours needed to bypass makes it a waisted resource. (they could also have thralls destroy the barriers.)

Destroying barriers takes time, giving you time to respond and patrol the hole in the barrier until it is repaired. This would also expend the e-clips and MD weapons of thralls, and allow your forces to apprehend them to prevent future instances. It puts an economic drain on the vampire kingdoms to replace expensive MD weaponry.

building barriers takes time and they do not need to use MD weapons to destroy barriers. Do you think they are just using MD weapons to drive back a force with a rain god and a sun god while creating an expanding desert? (not all the thralls are just unskilled peasant workers they can include mages.)-also you addressed an off hand comment and not the main one that it takes less time for them to breach your barrier than it does for you to build it. Making it a waisted effort.

Reducing the food supply by making more vampires is less of an issue when they are turning people behind enemy lines.

Which can't be done until they pass them, so this isn't helpful when you're conceptualizing thousands of thralls hurling themselves at the border.

I never created any such concept, infiltration attacks work best in small groups. They only need a hand full to slip small teams of secondary vampires a crossed the barrier that then start creating vampires behind your line. Thus drawing back your defense forces and allowing them to slowly slip more vampires making more vampires.

Once they defeat the barrier makers they can move into less protected territories. They are not reducing the food supply in their home territory if a few vampires slip behind the line and then make new vampires in a few days to fight you.

Obviously one other major defense would be relocating southern towns further north, or better defending those communities. Slowing the trickle of vampires able to approach those towns makes defending them more feasible.

Ummm….. I am talking about once they kill the force that built/maintain the barrier moving forward so relocating non combat towns does not address that. Once they are destroy the force maintaining the barrier they can advance on less protected towns that where hiding behind the barrier moving them does not address that in the least. Because they could breach the unprotected barriers at will and expand pat the barrier builders zone in search of food supply.

You then are loosing man power, and have to pull forces from other points to fight a vampire flanking move. Basically the vampires will win a war of atrittion. Also if food supply becaumes scares that would just increase the number of vampires that will fight to cross your barrier to get to the food you are guarding.

Fight how? Digging up soil to plug your rivers? This is the main threat, and why you need automated defenses to destroy soil bridges, which is why something like earth/water elementals or Splicers cannons would be helpful.

I have already pointed out how the would get past your water. The fighting happens after they bypass your barrier which really is not hard. They would get behind your lines then cause attrition to forces on the other side. So you did not address the point but your own straw man.

The only way to grantee you will you can stop an inclusion is to remove the source of the vampires.

A 10% chance of a 100% guarantee isn't as good odds as a 100% chance of a 50% guarantee.

Umm this makes no points it just looks like you are putting up an appearance of addressing something without doing so.
When most people say someting is guarnteed to happen it means it will happen or there is a 100% chance of it working. So you did not adress the point in any meaning for way.

[dreicunan]

@Shark_Force: I believe that Eliakon was referring specifically to the "ripping out the human soul" part, not the fragment of a vampire essence part. I thought that I had read about the soul being cast out far earlier than VKr as well, so thanks for finding the text from BtS, but I don't recall it being made explicit that way in the original Vampire Kingdoms, nor could a quick skim of it find anything that clearly stated.

[Shark_Force]

@Shark_Force: I believe that Eliakon was referring specifically to the "ripping out the human soul" part, not the fragment of a vampire essence part. I thought that I had read about the soul being cast out far earlier than VKr as well, so thanks for finding the text from BtS, but I don't recall it being made explicit that way in the original Vampire Kingdoms, nor could a quick skim of it find anything that clearly stated.

you mean apart from all the places where it states that the previous creature is gone, that they don't have even a shred of humanity left with the exception of a tiny majority, that they're demons, that they're not subject to exorcism because they've permanently kicked out the original inhabitant of their body, etc?

it certainly isn't as explicitly stated. but if you look for it, the evidence is definitely there. it isn't new to revised, it's just made more explicit.

[dreicunan]

@Shark_Force: I believe that Eliakon was referring specifically to the "ripping out the human soul" part, not the fragment of a vampire essence part. I thought that I had read about the soul being cast out far earlier than VKr as well, so thanks for finding the text from BtS, but I don't recall it being made explicit that way in the original Vampire Kingdoms, nor could a quick skim of it find anything that clearly stated.

you mean apart from all the places where it states that the previous creature is gone, that they don't have even a shred of humanity left with the exception of a tiny majority, that they're demons, that they're not subject to exorcism because they've permanently kicked out the original inhabitant of their body, etc?

it certainly isn't as explicitly stated. but if you look for it, the evidence is definitely there. it isn't new to revised, it's just made more explicit.

So you agree with me then.

[Shark_Force]

@Shark_Force: I believe that Eliakon was referring specifically to the "ripping out the human soul" part, not the fragment of a vampire essence part. I thought that I had read about the soul being cast out far earlier than VKr as well, so thanks for finding the text from BtS, but I don't recall it being made explicit that way in the original Vampire Kingdoms, nor could a quick skim of it find anything that clearly stated.

you mean apart from all the places where it states that the previous creature is gone, that they don't have even a shred of humanity left with the exception of a tiny majority, that they're demons, that they're not subject to exorcism because they've permanently kicked out the original inhabitant of their body, etc?

it certainly isn't as explicitly stated. but if you look for it, the evidence is definitely there. it isn't new to revised, it's just made more explicit.

So you agree with me then.

i said it isn't as explicitly stated. it's still there, and it's still explicit. it says they have nothing in common with humans apart from appearance, that all vestiges of humanity are destroyed except in rare circumstances, that the characteristics of the original are meaningless, that they're mere extensions of the vampire intelligence... those are all pretty explicit statements that the person who used to be living in that corpse is no longer living (or dead, for that matter) in that corpse.

[eliakon]

I would like to point out that the "replaced the soul" bit?
That is new.
It is basically a retcon that they added in VKr that helps justify the idiot ball and to help justify killing the vampires...
....but it is totally brand new.

is it now? i happen to have bought the PDF of beyond the supernatural some time ago, which means i can fact check this kind of thing. the first edition of BtS, that is, not the newer one. copyright 1988, years before vampire kingdoms was written.

page 181 "One such dreadful power is the vampire. A complex being that can divide its life-force like an amoeba, to create an army of horrific, blood-sucking ghouls to feed upon humans. The eerie thing can fragment a part of its essence and send it through a dimensional rift or portal, or allow it to be summoned by a foolhardy practitioner of magic. Delivered into our world, the invisible life-force must bond with a living human to anchor itself to our dimension."

"The fool who accepts such a deal has his/her life-essence torn from its living shell of flesh and blood, and cast into the jaws of death. Room must be made for the body's new master. The lost soul who stooped to make such a agreement has the pleasure of knowing that it will be his or her image/likeness that will be known as a vehicle of power. That is all."

"But the first vampire, the true focus of the intelligence's fragmented essence, can fragment a piece of itself again and again into evil or corrupted people who willingly accept the gift (the curse) of vampirism. Just as it did to its first victim, the person's life-essence is destroyed and the vampire is born."

Those are not the same vampires.
They have different stats, powers, weaknesses, abilities... They are no more the same kind of vampire as the PF1 vampires are, or a Garkin is, or a Strigori is, or...
So, yeah. Not The Same Thing.

then here's what my nightbane book (copyright 1995, a few years after vampire kingdoms was written), which states that it is based on vampire kingdoms, has to say:

page 179 (regarding the master vampire):
"...destroys all vestiges of humanity."
"The master, as are all vampires, is reborn, or perhaps unborn. The transformed vampire no longer has anything in common with humankind, other than the human appearance." (note that this indicates a NEW creature)
"... the original human attributes and alignment are meaningless, entirely new attributes are rolled, an evil alignment selected, and a handful of skills retained/selected." (not retaining much from the original here, are we?)

Selective much?
Vampire Kingdoms is pretty explicit
Page 10
"The essence of the persona and the fragment merge, become one, and create a new and horrible life form, the undead vampire."
That is pretty cut and dried.
The essence is not 'replaced' it is merged.

Everything else you post is quite litterally selectively picking out parts that ignore this key line.

[Blue_Lion]

I was thinking of an obstacle I had gone through. Basically we had to cross a 20' water obstacle using only wooden planks without getting wet. It took us less than a minute to create a makeshift bridge across the water. Given the strength of vampires and stuff easily available vampires can probably drop a makeshift bridge a crossed water over 100 feet across.


In Vietnam they had a floating bridge they built for major traffic every night and disabled every day.(do to US bombing) It took them less than an hour to put up a bridge that could support supply trucks.


Basically they can drop something long a crossed the water and have a "bridge" in a matter of minutes.

Then there is option of teleporting in rifts so they can just bypass it.

Moats are just obstacles that vampires can easily cross/breach. After all they have little trouble crossing the Rio Grand.

[Blue_Lion]

At least a water bombing run nightly pushes the vampire out, as long as you don't "leave" them a place to return too (which the 12,000 gallons is going to scare the hell out of everyone and limit deaths to actual vampires.

As long as hunters take that into account they can likely keep them out and push the "organized" portion south.

That leaves the independent vampires in much smaller groups. Forcing them to being more subtle.

Per village:
You take out packs of wild, that's 1d10 to 2d10 in 1 run.

You take out 1d4 secondary.

And a 50% of taking out a master.

Which masters and secondary vampires don't "hunt" persey. They lure and prey on small non-combatants. Using various "social" gatherings or seduction.

That's going to be difficult to do if someone keeps raining on your parties.

El Paso has at least 300 vampires alone. I am sure that a surprise water bombing would cut that number real quick.

Rain gear and water proof clothing worn by secondary vampires would reduce the effectiveness of water bombing.

[Shark_Force]

I would like to point out that the "replaced the soul" bit?
That is new.
It is basically a retcon that they added in VKr that helps justify the idiot ball and to help justify killing the vampires...
....but it is totally brand new.

is it now? i happen to have bought the PDF of beyond the supernatural some time ago, which means i can fact check this kind of thing. the first edition of BtS, that is, not the newer one. copyright 1988, years before vampire kingdoms was written.

page 181 "One such dreadful power is the vampire. A complex being that can divide its life-force like an amoeba, to create an army of horrific, blood-sucking ghouls to feed upon humans. The eerie thing can fragment a part of its essence and send it through a dimensional rift or portal, or allow it to be summoned by a foolhardy practitioner of magic. Delivered into our world, the invisible life-force must bond with a living human to anchor itself to our dimension."

"The fool who accepts such a deal has his/her life-essence torn from its living shell of flesh and blood, and cast into the jaws of death. Room must be made for the body's new master. The lost soul who stooped to make such a agreement has the pleasure of knowing that it will be his or her image/likeness that will be known as a vehicle of power. That is all."

"But the first vampire, the true focus of the intelligence's fragmented essence, can fragment a piece of itself again and again into evil or corrupted people who willingly accept the gift (the curse) of vampirism. Just as it did to its first victim, the person's life-essence is destroyed and the vampire is born."

Those are not the same vampires.
They have different stats, powers, weaknesses, abilities... They are no more the same kind of vampire as the PF1 vampires are, or a Garkin is, or a Strigori is, or...
So, yeah. Not The Same Thing.

then here's what my nightbane book (copyright 1995, a few years after vampire kingdoms was written), which states that it is based on vampire kingdoms, has to say:

page 179 (regarding the master vampire):
"...destroys all vestiges of humanity."
"The master, as are all vampires, is reborn, or perhaps unborn. The transformed vampire no longer has anything in common with humankind, other than the human appearance." (note that this indicates a NEW creature)
"... the original human attributes and alignment are meaningless, entirely new attributes are rolled, an evil alignment selected, and a handful of skills retained/selected." (not retaining much from the original here, are we?)

Selective much?
Vampire Kingdoms is pretty explicit
Page 10
"The essence of the persona and the fragment merge, become one, and create a new and horrible life form, the undead vampire."
That is pretty cut and dried.
The essence is not 'replaced' it is merged.

Everything else you post is quite litterally selectively picking out parts that ignore this key line.

1) the stuff from nightbane says it is all based on information from vampire kingdoms, so no, they aren't really different. they have the same stats, powers, weaknesses, and abilities. the BtS quotes are certainly a bit different (but not dramatically so), but those ones are based entirely on the information in vampire kingdoms.
2) that quote also says it's a new and horrible life form, which is an undead vampire, not just the same human with new powers added. practically speaking, that's the original human being replaced, not added to.

[Hawk258]

While much of BtS is similar it is not identical to rifts.

Page 11 of VKr states
The Slow Kill of its victim over a period of several
nights enables the Intelligence, via its Master or Secondary Vam-
pire carrier, to infect and take over the body of its victim three
days after the person dies. This process also enables the monster
within to draw upon some of the memories, personality and skills
of the person the vampire has slain. Thus, the thing that rises from
the grave is not the person who died, but a monster using the vic-
tim's brain patterns to appear to be a shadow of that individual.

page 49.
the Master is completely recreated, requiring all attributes and
other stats to be re-rolled, for he is reborn as something new
and demonic. This is true of the first Master and any others
that follow.

all but the most important. As a result, skills are remembered
and performed at the experience level of the individual before
he was made into a Master Vampire. However, the normal
skill bonuses do NOT apply (only I.Q. bonus) and skill profi-
ciency never improves.

[dreicunan]

We've probably discussed the issue of if the soul being ripped out was a retcon or not enough; any more and we are likely to run afoul of the pedantic quibbling rules. To avoid getting the thread locked, we should probably leave it be or, at the least, take the discussion to its own thread.

[Eagle]

Water bombing won't do a damn thing. Even 12,000 gallons (which I think is the suggestion someone had above) is nothing. I don't think people realize how little water that is, or the scale that would be required for water bombing.

I have a swimming pool in my backyard. It's a 30,000 gallon pool. I drained and then refilled it at the beginning of last summer. It takes about two days to fill it up with just a standard backyard water hose. 12,000 gallons would be like running my sprinkler system from when I got up to when I went to bed. Yeah my yard will be soaked, but it's not gonna affect the guy across the street.

[MadGreenSon]

Water bombing won't do a damn thing. Even 12,000 gallons (which I think is the suggestion someone had above) is nothing. I don't think people realize how little water that is, or the scale that would be required for water bombing.

I have a swimming pool in my backyard. It's a 30,000 gallon pool. I drained and then refilled it at the beginning of last summer. It takes about two days to fill it up with just a standard backyard water hose. 12,000 gallons would be like running my sprinkler system from when I got up to when I went to bed. Yeah my yard will be soaked, but it's not gonna affect the guy across the street.

The only way I can see that doing much of anything is if you somehow had that much holy water and were able to "crop dust" large and wandering packs of wild vampires. It would at least cause them to retreat in pain and confusion, but that's a looooong way to go for what would be basically pepper spraying a crowd of wild vamps.

First, you'd need 12,000 gallons of holy water, which I have no idea how you're going to get as the rules we have for making holy water make it challenging to produce in bulk, to say the least.

It looks like a Palladium Fantasy Priest of Light produces six ounces at a time or thereabouts and Rifts Druids can produce the same using oak bark. At that rate producing 12,000 gallons is roughly 1,066 man hours of work (a little over 130 8 hour shifts) since it's indicated to take fifteen seconds per six ounce vial.

A normal crop duster carries an 800 gallon load so that's about 15 crop dusters worth of payload that would be better used loaded into super soakers or those injection darts of Doc Reid's design for more direct application to vampires.

I mean, 12,000 gallons may not be a lot in the grand scheme of things, but there are a lot better uses for that much holy water than just dropping it out of the sky in one way or another.

[Eagle]

If the Coalition wanted to take out vampires, they need to lean heavily on their biggest advantages -- manpower and maneuverability.

They could march right into Mexico, hitting a hundred villages a day with a dozen APCs worth of men, each. Move during the daytime, with Dog Boys sniffing out the vampires' hiding places. Soldiers will speak with trusted locals (basically priests) to see if they know any helpful info. Coalition psychics will interrogate suspected collaborators, or those who have been mentally dominated. Everyone is focused on finding the vampires' lairs. You do all this during the day. If you find vamps, stake them and destroy them.

24 hours a day, legions of Skelebots roam the desert, looking for signs of vampire activity. They carry modified weapons that shoot anti-vampire rounds. But their goal is really as bait -- you keep track of when and where they encounter packs of wild vampires. It doesn't matter if a Skelebot patrol is destroyed, that's what they're there for. You just look and see which units don't check in each morning, and then review the path they were programmed to take. Once you zero in on where they are probably hiding, you launch a daytime assault with a couple Death's Head transports full of men.

The Coalition could keep the problem under control, wiping out nests and any vampires stupid enough to engage them in combat. The lazy, the arrogant, the obvious would get taken out. As far as Intelligences go, somebody would have to point the Coalition in the right direction. I don't think they'd really figure it out on their own. But they could easily storm a stronghold and force it to flee. I don't think they'd be able to stop it from running.

[dreicunan]

The Coalition could keep the problem under control, wiping out nests and any vampires stupid enough to engage them in combat. The lazy, the arrogant, the obvious would get taken out. As far as Intelligences go, somebody would have to point the Coalition in the right direction. I don't think they'd really figure it out on their own. But they could easily storm a stronghold and force it to flee. I don't think they'd be able to stop it from running.

In what sense do you mean pointing them in the right direction and not figuring it out on their own? I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just pretty sure that the Coalition has enough information to know that they exist and that you keep blasting the thing with wood or silver rounds until about 20 minutes after you think its dead.