Possible to support SLMH/Hydrogen fueled Mecha in NG Period?

[ShadowLogan]

Now SLMH is the De-facto fuel for the majority of human mecha in the first two arcs. Which can be a bit hard to come by in the NG period (3rd arc) unless you find an SLMH plant in working condition (even then you still need raw materials). Very few mecha use regular hydrogen as fuel (IINM only the ASC "Power Armor" use it), though vehicles seem to use more conventional fuel/energy sources overall (some do use SLMH, but these are fighter aerospacecraft) but not the focus here.

The hydrogen fuel-cell stack on the ASC "Power Armor" has me wondering a few things:
A. How hard is it to support this fuel-type in the NG setting? Unfortunately the description from the ASC Power Armor lacks clarity if its stored as a gas or liquid, merely an endurance figure (and it doesn't seem to be SLMH or they would have described it as such I would think).

Production of Hydrogen gas shouldn't be that difficult to support with even minimal infrastructure, though if liquid it would require more. We see several communities with working electricity from somewhere (Denver has a working geothermal plant, the dam may also have been hydro-electric, Donald Maxwell's bunker, "Hard Times" town, NYC, Dusty Ares town, Lancer/Lunk are introduced, etc), so Electrolysis could be supported without PC activity, possibly other methods of Hydrogen production too.

B. Can SLMH units substitute other forms of hydrogen for their fusion reactors?

Obviously the density of SLMH compared to more mundane Hydrogen forms (gas or liquid) is going to be higher, resulting in a loss of endurance.

Obviously this is a GM's call, but I think it might be possible if the SLMH is only used as a storage medium before it is consumed in the fusion engine. Even if it does have to be SLMH it might provide minimal power as compared to a SLMH fuel. After all the Alpha/Beta have back-up fusion engines, but they aren't listed as dependent on SLMH (or any specific type of fusion fuel you can think of). Though the Alpha/Beta may not be the best example since we are looking at a fusion engine that operates in a back-up role, unlike the (RAW) fusion mecha of the previous eras.

[glitterboy2098]

Now SLMH is the De-facto fuel for the majority of human mecha in the first two arcs. Which can be a bit hard to come by in the NG period (3rd arc) unless you find an SLMH plant in working condition (even then you still need raw materials). Very few mecha use regular hydrogen as fuel (IINM only the ASC "Power Armor" use it), though vehicles seem to use more conventional fuel/energy sources overall (some do use SLMH, but these are fighter aerospacecraft) but not the focus here.

you don't need an entire production plant, just large enough supplies. given that ASC bases would have had massive fuel tanks filled with the stuff, and SLMH would only be lost through leaks in the tanks and minor sublimation of the material to regular H2 gas, you ought to have a good chance to find lots of stored SLMH in old ASC and UEDF bases. though it is possible that the main supplies were probably already tapped by the resistance, lots of smaller caches and supply tanks ought to have made it through, allowing you to fill up your mecha. and it seems likely that ASC civilian centers might have it too.. SLMH is the best way to store and transport hydrogen, and it wasn't reliant on a limited source of natural materials, so it likely replaced gasoline in major centers of civilization. civilian stocks probably didn't get used as readily. you'd just have to husband your supply so you don't run out before you get a chance to search the next set of ruins.

The hydrogen fuel-cell stack on the ASC "Power Armor" has me wondering a few things:
A. How hard is it to support this fuel-type in the NG setting? Unfortunately the description from the ASC Power Armor lacks clarity if its stored as a gas or liquid, merely an endurance figure (and it doesn't seem to be SLMH or they would have described it as such I would think).

given the endurance listed? almost certainly SLMH. Fuelcells, even hyper efficent ones, can only extract so much power from a given amount of hydrogen. and regular hydrogen is extremey low density. you need huge tanks to store relatively little, even in its cryogenic forms. the only way you can get the lifetimes between refuelings in such a small vehicle is if the hydrogen is being stored as a super-dense form. like SLMH.

B. Can SLMH units substitute other forms of hydrogen for their fusion reactors?
Obviously the density of SLMH compared to more mundane Hydrogen forms (gas or liquid) is going to be higher, resulting in a loss of endurance.

probably not. SLMH is a liquid at standard temps. regular hydrogen is a gas at the same temp, one that is very hard to store (hydrogen being small enough it's atoms can slip out through atomic gaps!), and it's liquid forms are cryogenic, requiring temps hundreds of degrees below zero. an SLMH using vehicle is not going to be equipped to store either form and conversion of the vehicle would take parts, materials ,and design work that is going to be harder to find than supplies of SLMH during the invid occupation.

Obviously this is a GM's call, but I think it might be possible if the SLMH is only used as a storage medium before it is consumed in the fusion engine. Even if it does have to be SLMH it might provide minimal power as compared to a SLMH fuel. After all the Alpha/Beta have back-up fusion engines, but they aren't listed as dependent on SLMH (or any specific type of fusion fuel you can think of). Though the Alpha/Beta may not be the best example since we are looking at a fusion engine that operates in a back-up role, unlike the (RAW) fusion mecha of the previous eras.

the Alpha/Beta engine also only operates for a few hours, which going off real world fusion research would indicate they are using a very limited supply of fuel. limited enough one could buy the fighter having a tank for hydrogen rich liquids it cracks regular hydrogen out of. but the Alpha/Beta fusion plant is very weak (flight speed and agility limits, plus unable to transform), so we aren't talking about a lot of power being produced. with fusion, hydrogen consumption is directly tied to power output.

and SLMH is probably more than just a storage form.. one of the traits that makes the possiblity of liquid mettallic hydrogen so intriguing is that in it it's electrons and nuclei are rather 'loose' compared to regular liquids. this potentially could make the material easier to use as a fusion fuel, since you don't have to work as hard to convert it to plasma and start getting just the nuclei to start hitting each other.

and with non-fusion applications you can just burn it directly. the material would be flammable, have the density of water, and could be employed more or less like gasoline in regular internal combustion engines. you'd just need to tweak the injector settings since you'd only need tiny amounts at a time though.

[glitterboy2098]

given that protoculture, by HG canon, provides more power than fusion can? even if you can do it (probably can, though the VF-1, Logan, and Ajax all used dual drive/pwerplant set ups where the engines were also providing power, while the Alpha's engines don't), your going to lose a lot of performance in the process.

and given the need to husband SLMH fuel use even more than PC use due to availability issues, your more likely to see conversions the other way, with Logan, Ajax's, and VF-1's converted to use Protoculture systems via the expediancy of swappin out the SLMH fueld fusion engines in favor of engines off Conbat's and/or Alpha's, and fitting Protoculture cell engines into the spaces formerly used to store SLMH fuel in the fighter.

[Tiree]

I do this quick and dirty -

Hydrogen Fuel Stack used by ASC Power Armor is the same canister size and style as a PC Cell. It is interchangeable, with minor modifications to the ASC Power Armor to use it.

IF PC is available in a liquid form, it can be poured into a SLMH based vehicle and burned. Otherwise any hydrogen rich liquid can be converted by the vehicle, using it's internal fusion engine to convert it to SLMH. Each Mecha has its own SLMH conversion plant. It just takes time to produce enough for the mecha to use.

I prefer that Characters with the older mecha not convert their Mecha to pure PC. But that is up to them (and if they can find the parts). But their mecha can also make their own SLMH. As for the Invid being able to see the Mecha because of the use of Protoculture - yes, all Mecha use PC. PC is not only a liquid but is also used to make Protoculture Chips, and that bio energy (power through the chips) that create a resonance field that the Invid detect.

[Seto Kaiba]

Now SLMH is the De-facto fuel for the majority of human mecha in the first two arcs. Which can be a bit hard to come by in the NG period (3rd arc) unless you find an SLMH plant in working condition (even then you still need raw materials).

Barring salvage from 1st and 2nd War-era Earth Forces equipment, SLMH shouldn't be available at all... as the UEEF's gear (and apparently civilian hardware on Earth) run on protoculture.

A. How hard is it to support this fuel-type in the NG setting?

With the Invid invasion having apparently knocked large parts of Earth down a few steps on the tech ladder, I would have made the hydrogen fuel cells used on the power armors a rare commodity, the sort of thing only found in old UEDF supply caches or salvaged from wrecked units.

B. Can SLMH units substitute other forms of hydrogen for their fusion reactors?

Personally, I would allow it provided the hydrogen be stored in a liquid or slush form, and then cut the run time proportional to the difference in density between the known/estimated real-world metallic-state hydrogen and the liquid/slush (divide by 7, generally, to account for the difference in the amount of actual hydrogen per unit of fluid volume).

[ShadowLogan]

given the endurance listed? almost certainly SLMH. Fuelcells, even hyper efficent ones, can only extract so much power from a given amount of hydrogen. and regular hydrogen is extremey low density. you need huge tanks to store relatively little, even in its cryogenic forms. the only way you can get the lifetimes between refuelings in such a small vehicle is if the hydrogen is being stored as a super-dense form. like SLMH.

Barring that they pulled the figure out of the air.

SLMH isn't the only answer though, if a hydrogen compound (ex methane) is used as the storage medium instead of a gas (as fuel-cells can be made to extract the hydrogen). I don't think liquid form would be used without a major advance in technology that would make storage/handling of the materials easier. Nor would that necessarily be in conflict with the description as the hydrogen is what is being used in the fuel cell with the rest of the material not being used in the fuel cell.

probably not. SLMH is a liquid at standard temps. regular hydrogen is a gas at the same temp, one that is very hard to store (hydrogen being small enough it's atoms can slip out through atomic gaps!), and it's liquid forms are cryogenic, requiring temps hundreds of degrees below zero. an SLMH using vehicle is not going to be equipped to store either form and conversion of the vehicle would take parts, materials ,and design work that is going to be harder to find than supplies of SLMH during the invid occupation.

I am aware of the storage difficulties with hydrogen in gas/liquid forms, but as the fuel cell shows you can use hydrogen compounds to make storage easier of the hydrogen (though you may need to make some modifications for the alternate hydrogen rich substance).

With the Invid invasion having apparently knocked large parts of Earth down a few steps on the tech ladder, I would have made the hydrogen fuel cells used on the power armors a rare commodity, the sort of thing only found in old UEDF supply caches or salvaged from wrecked units.

Agree they aren't going to be producing new Fuel Cells, but that really isn't the question: it's the production of the hydrogen fuel for the fuel-cells.

Personally, I would allow it provided the hydrogen be stored in a liquid or slush form, and then cut the run time proportional to the difference in density between the known/estimated real-world metallic-state hydrogen and the liquid/slush (divide by 7, generally, to account for the difference in the amount of actual hydrogen per unit of fluid volume).

I agree about the endurance hit based on the density difference. I'm not sure if I would limit it to Liquid or slush form, as those are both cryogenic materials and certainly much harder to produce and store than hydrogen gas.

[rtsurfer]

Depends on what Tommy wants, what his goals are for the Shadow Chronicles next chapters... will he allow them to find sufficient supplies of slime to warrant converting back or will he make them rely on their dwendling supplies of protoculture?

[Seto Kaiba]

I agree about the endurance hit based on the density difference. I'm not sure if I would limit it to Liquid or slush form, as those are both cryogenic materials and certainly much harder to produce and store than hydrogen gas.

You don't necessarily need to impose ultra-low temperatures on hydrogen to get it into a liquid state, you just need to put the stuff under high pressure... admittedly neither is easy, but with the Earth having once been equipped to produce much higher pressures for forming metallic hydrogen fuel, this should be a cake walk.

Depends on what Tommy wants, what his goals are for the Shadow Chronicles next chapters... will he allow them to find sufficient supplies of slime to warrant converting back or will he make them rely on their dwendling supplies of protoculture?

RTSC's direction seems to be leaning towards "rely on dwindling supplies of protoculture".

*Looks at performance stats on SLMH mecha... *

*Looks at performance stats on PC mecha...*

Um...there isn't any significant performance difference here really.

Quite. Barring the RPG's attack-related stats and bonuses, one would generally be inclined to say the SLMH-powered stuff is actually superior to the protoculture-powered stuff in terms of performance.

As a side note here, why are there special bonuses a all?

Force of habit.

[ShadowLogan]

[quotre="rtsurfer"]Depends on what Tommy wants, what his goals are for the Shadow Chronicles next chapters... will he allow them to find sufficient supplies of slime to warrant converting back or will he make them rely on their dwendling supplies of protoculture?[/quote]
This really isn't for the Shadow Chronicles period, but rather the Earth during the Invid Occupation (NG period).

As a side note here, why are there special bonuses a all?

Well there isn't a Mecha Combat: Basic anymore, but people can still operate with the appropriate piloting skill(s) and the special bonuses do not require Mecha Comabt to take effect. What I want to know is why they appeared in TMS/TRM, but not NG since they make PC mecha seem less agile at full size (not Cyclones scale).

Even in the Earth's vicinity, ALUCE was a chemical processing station, right? That would seem to be a big step in the right direction of providing the SLMH a post Battle of Reflex Point setting would require.

IINM it isn't established in the show what ALUCE did when it was a civilian installation. As a military installation it could have lost those civilian roles. While TY has retained the OSM role of ALUE being a chemical engineering base, no real information exists on what it produced specifically (it was to support Lunar Colonization per AoTSC, which suggests less SLMH and more life-support)

You don't necessarily need to impose ultra-low temperatures on hydrogen to get it into a liquid state, you just need to put the stuff under high pressure... admittedly neither is easy, but with the Earth having once been equipped to produce much higher pressures for forming metallic hydrogen fuel, this should be a cake walk.

True, but can the mecha's existing SLMH systems (storage, distribution, reactor) handle it as is, or do you need to do some alterations to the them? You may be exchanging cryogenic consideration for pressure consideration.

[glitterboy2098]

a chemical processing station on the moon would likely be processing lunar soil to produce Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Aluminum. plus a few rare earths probably. i could see it having SLMH production facilities, but hardly anything big enough to support the whole UEEF. heck, i doubt that it would have supported much beyond the mecha of the small ASC fleet that took refuge there during the 2nd war. maybe not even all of that.

[Seto Kaiba]

You don't necessarily need to impose ultra-low temperatures on hydrogen to get it into a liquid state, you just need to put the stuff under high pressure... admittedly neither is easy, but with the Earth having once been equipped to produce much higher pressures for forming metallic hydrogen fuel, this should be a cake walk.

True, but can the mecha's existing SLMH systems (storage, distribution, reactor) handle it as is, or do you need to do some alterations to the them? You may be exchanging cryogenic consideration for pressure consideration.

Really, it depends on how the fuel is being introduced into the reactor. Since the fuel is explicitly liquid state, I would guess that any liquid or slush-state hydrogen would be workable too with some minor tweaking of the part that corresponds to the fuel-injection system, possibly something that is automatically configured or self-correcting the way modern fuel-injection systems are.

[Robroy]

The way I always understood it was the 'awesome power' of protocultural was needed to run a fold drive as a 'regular' fusion reactor is not powerful enough, thou it could run the other ship systems.

I thought most ships have a protocultual reflex furnace for primary power and fusion for back up.

[Seto Kaiba]

Though honestly, it would seem that having a moon base without this for the UEDF/ASC would seem kind of strange really. All their larger mecha is SLMH powered, and the Navy was heavily active during the war, including their mecha. (Quick, I'm feeling lazy right now. Were UEDF/ASC starships fusion, SLMH, reflex, protoculture powered, or some combination there of?)

My take on it would honestly be that the easiest way for the UEDF to maintain its supplies of metallic hydrogen fuel for its mecha would be to go where the stuff occurs naturally... they have gravity-control technology, so mining the hydrogen in Jupiter's atmosphere should be fairly straightforward. (To answer your lazy question, UEDF/ASC starships used salvaged Zentradi reflex furnaces, so they were protoculture powered.)

The way I always understood it was the 'awesome power' of protocultural was needed to run a fold drive as a 'regular' fusion reactor is not powerful enough, thou it could run the other ship systems.

This is a common enough assumption, but one that doesn't hold water if what we're shown in the Shadow Chronicles was anything to go by... the Haydonites don't use protoculture, and their ships are still fold-capable.

[Tiree]

The way I always understood it was the 'awesome power' of protocultural was needed to run a fold drive as a 'regular' fusion reactor is not powerful enough, thou it could run the other ship systems.

This is a common enough assumption, but one that doesn't hold water if what we're shown in the Shadow Chronicles was anything to go by... the Haydonites don't use protoculture, and their ships are still fold-capable.

I don't recall any official material on whether they do or do not. It could be one of those things that they are hiding that fact, and only want the PC for themselves... But then again, we don't know much about them yet, do we?

[Robroy]

The way I always understood it was the 'awesome power' of protocultural was needed to run a fold drive as a 'regular' fusion reactor is not powerful enough, thou it could run the other ship systems.

This is a common enough assumption, but one that doesn't hold water if what we're shown in the Shadow Chronicles was anything to go by... the Haydonites don't use protoculture, and their ships are still fold-capable.

I don't recall any official material on whether they do or do not. It could be one of those things that they are hiding that fact, and only want the PC for themselves... But then again, we don't know much about them yet, do we?

I was expecting anti-matter, but considering what they did with the N-S missiles maybe a singularly based power source.

I am not saying that only protoculture can run a fold drive. Just that fusion is not powerful enough. At least the ones you can put in a ship. Since protoculture is supposed to be 100 time more powerful than a fusion reactor maybe you can build a ship with 100 fusion plants and use that to transport other ships in its fold bubble.

[Robroy]

Ok, looking back I guess I am drifting off topic.

The ASC mecha I would let run on liquid hydrogen for 1 day, less with combat.

Cracking water is easy, getting enough to run a squad of mecha may be the hard part. ASC bases would have the equipment, if it has not been scavenged for a town. Gas plants would have it to. Or a mechanical inclined type could cobble something together.

But this takes away some from the NG setting. Stealing PC from the Invid is one of the things that make it NG.

[Robroy]

The biggest difference between the SLMH vs PC as far as mecha goes seem to be endurance, about 1 week vs about 1 month (for 16 cans).

I don't think a engine swap would be that hard for anyone with the right skills, but then that can be said for about anything. It is kind of strange that the NG SB didn't cover engine mods or malfunctions.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't recall any official material on whether they do or do not. It could be one of those things that they are hiding that fact, and only want the PC for themselves... But then again, we don't know much about them yet, do we?

Everything we've been shown and told so far has indicated the Haydonites hate and fear protoculture, and want to wipe out anyone who uses it. It would be rather inconsistent of them to use the stuff themselves when they're convinced that using protoculture automatically makes you a potential galactic tyrant.

I am not saying that only protoculture can run a fold drive. Just that fusion is not powerful enough. [...]

And I'm saying (again) that there's zero evidence to support that contention.

Since protoculture is supposed to be 100 time more powerful than a fusion reactor maybe you can build a ship with 100 fusion plants and use that to transport other ships in its fold bubble.

Where is THAT coming from? The only thing that's been said officially is that protoculture has higher energy density (more go-juice per unit of fuel mass) than conventional nuclear power sources. What precisely constitutes "conventional" is not specified, but SLMH isn't exactly conventional by modern standards (or even most fictional standards).

- How hard would it be to do?

We're talking about radically modifying the power systems of something infinitely more complex than a car, on which engine changes are about as major and time-consuming as modification work gets. In short, "VERY".

- What would you require for salvage and such? (Cell packs, energizers, engine changes, that sort of thing...)

More than anything else, some kind of power lifter capable of shifting the heavy and bulky machine parts involved. The Alpha's power plant is, based on diagrams shown in the animation itself, fairly substantial in size. I can't imagine that a similarly-sized mecha running on fusion would be any less cumbersome.

- Could the "typical" Patcher do the job?

A "typical" one? My take would be no. An exceptionally skilled one? Yes, but only if he/she possessed the requisite heavy machinery to custom-tool parts and extract large components from the airframe without having to rely on manpower.

- What sorts of penalties to skills could you expect?

Massive. Absolutely stonking massive.

- What sorts of penalties to performance and endurance could you expect?

I'd impose a blanket 25% on any mecha converted to use a power source different from what the original design spec has it with. You can't re-engineer something like that so radically and expect it to work just as well as it did before (or even close if it's an improved thing). It'll likely change the distribution of mass somewhat, meaning kinaesthetics are going to be thrown off, and power conversion may cause additional instabilities down the line.

- Who long would it take to do?

Depends on how well equipped and how much support said Patcher has... if it's one man alone, probably weeks. One who has a fairly large support staff (e.g. a machinist working on Earth, who specializes in engines and light mecha), possibly a week or two if they have all the parts on hand.

- Is going from one form of power to the other more efficient? Or does it really matter at that point?

More efficient? Well, that depends on the circumstances you'd expect to use it in. Protoculture is supposedly longer lasting in terms of burn rate, but the lower performance protoculture-run mecha exhibit also suggests its longer effective life is the byproduct of lower energy output. Honestly, I don't think it would matter except for operations in space (which you're not likely to run into in a NG-era game with improvised mecha) or in terms of the Invid seeing protoculture.

- How many protoculture powered woodchucks would you need to chuck...uh, no wait, that's a different threat, isn't it?

Forty-two.

The biggest difference between the SLMH vs PC as far as mecha goes seem to be endurance, about 1 week vs about 1 month (for 16 cans).

Based on the show, I've maintained that the RPG is dramatically overstating the fuel capacity of the Alpha. I'd give it less than half that on 16 cells, since Scott's band seems to be forever searching for more fuel. The lower performance of units using protoculture has, as I mentioned above, had me thinking that the 16 cells contain less energy than the thousand or so liters of hydrogen in a VF-1, and that it lasts longer because the mecha's lower performance consumes less energy at peak operating levels.

I don't think a engine swap would be that hard for anyone with the right skills, but then that can be said for about anything. It is kind of strange that the NG SB didn't cover engine mods or malfunctions.

It may have something to do with the protoculture fuel crisis being a major plot point in the ongoing, but suspended, RTSC plot.

[Robroy]

Since protoculture is supposed to be 100 time more powerful than a fusion reactor maybe you can build a ship with 100 fusion plants and use that to transport other ships in its fold bubble.

Where is THAT coming from? The only thing that's been said officially is that protoculture has higher energy density (more go-juice per unit of fuel mass) than conventional nuclear power sources. What precisely constitutes "conventional" is not specified, but SLMH isn't exactly conventional by modern standards (or even most fictional standards).

I am probably misremembering a quote from the show about how powerful PC is compared to fusion. The ship part is just a random thought going through my brain.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am probably misremembering a quote from the show about how powerful PC is compared to fusion. The ship part is just a random thought going through my brain.

The show never talks about protoculture vs fusion... the fusion thing came along around the time the 2nd Edition Macross Saga sourcebook went to print.

Admittedly, if you wanted to sit down and work out the consumption rate of both fuels using official information and what's also set down in the RPG, you'd find that, in terms of the amount of energy per unit of fuel mass, protoculture actually is a marginal improvement at best. In terms of energetic potential, a fully fueled VF-1 blows the Alpha into the weeds... that's probably because the Alpha's smaller quantity of fuel is not being consumed as fast due to its much lower performance.

That protoculture is massively more potent than nuclear sources is basically fan-myth.

[Jerell]

That protoculture is massively more potent than nuclear sources is basically fan-myth.

My speculation, I think that may come with how they talk about Reflex weaponry in the show. Then again, I could be way off (shrug).

[Seto Kaiba]

That protoculture is massively more potent than nuclear sources is basically fan-myth.

My speculation, I think that may come with how they talk about Reflex weaponry in the show. Then again, I could be way off (shrug).

Eh... no dice. Pretty much all that's said about reflex weaponry in the show is a brief remark about humans having 'em in Ep1, and another brief remark about the reflex warheads having been saved for a showdown with the Zentradi in Ep27. I think it's most likely one of those fan-myths that's grown up organically in those years between the implosion of the first two sequel attempts in the late 80s and the reboot in 2001. There are a LOT of those, and many of them are so old and so thoroughly talked-over that many fans don't realize they're just runaway rumors and wild mass guessing.

[Jerell]

Could be, and that sounds reasonable. However, there is some support to protoculture being more powerful than fusion if the RPG 2nd ed. RPG books are considered canon. Masters sourcebook (manga size) page 207, regarding the discovery of protocultrue, "It looked to Tirolian instruments like fusion, but on a scale far and above that which simple nuclear power could generate." It also notes later the same page they developed the space fold after they developed protoculture and Robotechnology. Though it does not specifically state protoculture is needed for space fold, the way it's written one would think you need protoculture for Robotechnology and Robotechnology to fold space, but that seems left open for some interpretation.

I don't know what's up with the Haydonites tech yet, and how it fits in exactly. If they don't use protoculture then it would seem you can fold without it, but I can only assume they don't use it at this point. One thing does have me wondering though, if they didn't use protoculture, why would they have shadow technology to cloak it's use?

[ShadowLogan]

One thing does have me wondering though, if they didn't use protoculture, why would they have shadow technology to cloak it's use?

Pre-2001 Reboot Shadow Tech they really wouldn't need it as it appears designed for PC cloaking purposes only. However after the re-boot Shadow Tech is a lot more versatile so may be a "bonus" feature (if you will) of the technology as it can cloak gravity, and maybe responsible for other Stealth effects.

That protoculture is massively more potent than nuclear sources is basically fan-myth

And yet that is precisely what the RT.com Infopedia has to say on the matter (which IINM is ripped from Art 1, and I know it is in AotSC)
http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/encyc ... .php?id=53

I agree it isn't mentioned in the story itself, but it has to be potent energy source to wage war for it by traveling across the galaxy(s).

[Jerell]

That makes sense on the protoculture. Especially why all these alien civilizations keep coming to earth to get (or wipe out in the Haydonites case) protoculture.

I'm now convinced Protoculture>nuke

[Seto Kaiba]

Could be, and that sounds reasonable. However, there is some support to protoculture being more powerful than fusion if the RPG 2nd ed. RPG books are considered canon.

The RPG (either edition) has never been canon. It's vetted (poorly and inconsistently) for compliance with canon, but that doesn't make it canon itself.

And yet that is precisely what the RT.com Infopedia has to say on the matter (which IINM is ripped from Art 1, and I know it is in AotSC)

Um... it actually says nothing of the sort. All it DOES say is that protoculture has a higher energy density (more energy is extracted per unit of fuel mass) than conventional nuclear sources. By how much, it doesn't say. What constitutes their "conventional" nuclear sources" is also unsaid.

That makes sense on the protoculture. Especially why all these alien civilizations keep coming to earth to get (or wipe out in the Haydonites case) protoculture.

I'm now convinced Protoculture>nuke

Easily swayed, eh? Protoculture is explicitly more potent as an energy source when compared to an equal volume of the "conventional" (but unspecified) nuclear fuel. How much more potent isn't said, but the available evidence from all of the known quantities of fuel involved vs. performance and approximate run-time indicates that protoculture is actually not all that more potent than fusion.

[Jerell]

Easily maybe, but the bit about, "It looked to Tirolian instruments like fusion, but on a scale far and above that which simple nuclear power could generate." - is good enough for me to be a believer.

To me, if I'm playing a game with VF-1s run on alien overtechnology fusion, I just my as well call it SDF Macross the RPG. Protoculture should be the driving force in Robotech, it's one of the neat things that makes it different from the source material. I can understand not everyone feeling that way, but it does make sense to me now.

[Seto Kaiba]

Easily maybe, but the bit about, "It looked to Tirolian instruments like fusion, but on a scale far and above that which simple nuclear power could generate." - is good enough for me to be a believer.

And yet, even that is a horribly vague remark that could be taken a number of ways. I've yet to meet any sort of a nuclear power source that I'd call "simple".

To me, if I'm playing a game with VF-1s run on alien overtechnology fusion, I just my as well call it SDF Macross the RPG.

You do realize that there's actually nothing in the series that identifies any of the human mecha in the series (except the Monster destroid) as running on protoculture until the New Generation, right? Considering how much of the 2nd Edition RT RPG's info is just copied and pasted from the OSM, and how 2E is now trying to sustain itself principally on OSM concept art for MOSPEADA, the "Robotech" in the Robotech RPG is a tissue paper-thin veneer at best. Effectively, you're ALREADY playing Macross the RPG, Southern Cross the RPG, and MOSPEADA the RPG.

Protoculture should be the driving force in Robotech, it's one of the neat things that makes it different from the source material. I can understand not everyone feeling that way, but it does make sense to me now.

Protoculture is just a MacGuffin, man. It's not really a "driving force" behind much until the New Generation, when it has a direct role in the story beyond "we want the thing". Ever since Robotech was rebooted to salvage it from the bad place Carl Macek had led it to, protoculture has gotten less and less important.

[Jerell]

Protoculture is just a MacGuffin, man. It's not really a "driving force" behind much until the New Generation, when it has a direct role in the story beyond "we want the thing". Ever since Robotech was rebooted to salvage it from the bad place Carl Macek had led it to, protoculture has gotten less and less important.

Protoculture being the MacGuffin of Robotech is exactly what I'm talking about. It is 'the' MacGuffin that ties the series together. Since it was the protoculture matrix the Zentraedi were sent to recover from Zor's crashed battlefortress and kicking off the first Robotech War.

In the show, I believe there is nothing saying that any of the mecha use fusion as a power source either.

[Seto Kaiba]

In the show, I believe there is nothing saying that any of the mecha use fusion as a power source either.

Roy identifies the VF-1's power plant as a "based on a reactor design", which Robotech's creative director has officially made to mean a nuclear fusion reactor, a decision many fans feel was motivated by apparent affection/preference for Macross as much as it was by the aforementioned dialogue. That particular choice of term ("reactor") does set it apart from protoculture power plants, which are generally called some kind of variation on "reflex furnace" instead.

[Jerell]

Indeed, but 'reactor based' propulsion, is quite vague also, and could be taken to mean a number of things. While I grant that a fusion reactor is a distinct possibility.

If that's what Tommy wants, then I guess that's what going to stand. For now anyways.

[rtsurfer]

In the show, I believe there is nothing saying that any of the mecha use fusion as a power source either.

Roy identifies the VF-1's power plant as a "based on a reactor design", which Robotech's creative director has officially made to mean a nuclear fusion reactor, a decision many fans feel was motivated by apparent affection/preference for Macross as much as it was by the aforementioned dialogue. That particular choice of term ("reactor") does set it apart from protoculture power plants, which are generally called some kind of variation on "reflex furnace" instead.

Those Veritech fighter engines are built on a reactor design. With that kind of propulsion, believe me, you can go anywhere.

Based on the tv series: the SDF-1, Khyron's cruiser & the Masters' Cityship all use reactors. The Zentraedi & the Masters' have reactors that utilize protoculture so its not unreasonable to believe the SDF-1 also has them, and that smaller versions exist such as those used on the VFs.

IMO Robotech's current creative director actually doesn't know the property under his care very well so he falls back on the OSM which he knows somewhat better and has much more source material. Also doesn't help that he won't let continuity get in the way of what he thinks is a good story. Originally, protoculture was in part used to help tie the three sagas together, over the past decade efforts have been made by HG to disassociate them. What was it exactly in the tv series that excluded protoculture from being used with fusion reactors/engines?

[camk4evr]

In the show, I believe there is nothing saying that any of the mecha use fusion as a power source either.

Roy identifies the VF-1's power plant as a "based on a reactor design", which Robotech's creative director has officially made to mean a nuclear fusion reactor, a decision many fans feel was motivated by apparent affection/preference for Macross as much as it was by the aforementioned dialogue. That particular choice of term ("reactor") does set it apart from protoculture power plants, which are generally called some kind of variation on "reflex furnace" instead.

Those Veritech fighter engines are built on a reactor design. With that kind of propulsion, believe me, you can go anywhere.

Based on the tv series: the SDF-1, Khyron's cruiser & the Masters' Cityship all use reactors. The Zentraedi & the Masters' have reactors that utilize protoculture so its not unreasonable to believe the SDF-1 also has them, and that smaller versions exist such as those used on the VFs.

IMO Robotech's current creative director actually doesn't know the property under his care very well so he falls back on the OSM which he knows somewhat better and has much more source material. Also doesn't help that he won't let continuity get in the way of what he thinks is a good story. Originally, protoculture was in part used to help tie the three sagas together, over the past decade efforts have been made by HG to disassociate them. What was it exactly in the tv series that excluded protoculture from being used with fusion reactors/engines?

The fact that humans couldn't figure out what the aliens were talking about (at least in the Macross saga I'd have to rewatch the Southern Cross saga to double check).

[ShadowLogan]

Um... it actually says nothing of the sort. All it DOES say is that protoculture has a higher energy density (more energy is extracted per unit of fuel mass) than conventional nuclear sources. By how much, it doesn't say. What constitutes their "conventional" nuclear sources" is also unsaid.

Wasn't responding to the "by how much" aspect, merely that it is more powerful than nuclear.

Off hand I can't think of a source that might quantify it.

[rtsurfer]

^

The power density of Protoculture canisters exceeds that of conventional nuclear power sources.

Probably comparing it to reactors being used on nuclear vessels of the late 90's or early 2000's, around the time Zor's SDF arrived and was first being studied. If they are comparing pc to the nuclear power most commonly available at the same time period in the Macross Universe (OSM) then no idea

^^The Zentraedi (TMS) attributed pretty much all of their technology and apparently anything they couldn't understand (like intemacy, physical attraction, love, etc) to protoculture, would the crew of the SDF-1 neccessarily attribute all of their ramblings to what may have been only a fuel to humanity? It isn't clear whether humanity knew what the new alien fuel was called by the aliens before their alliance with Breetai and Exedore, for all we know it was simply called the new fuel or some other variation. Humanity had and used Reflex Technology which the Zentraedi and Masters utilized with protoculture, doesn't mean the technology has to be exclusively powered by pc although the tv series does associate the two a number of times and is about wars for the substance.

[glitterboy2098]

Those Veritech fighter engines are built on a reactor design. With that kind of propulsion, believe me, you can go anywhere.

Based on the tv series: the SDF-1, Khyron's cruiser & the Masters' Cityship all use reactors. The Zentraedi & the Masters' have reactors that utilize protoculture so its not unreasonable to believe the SDF-1 also has them, and that smaller versions exist such as those used on the VFs.

actually the term 'reactor' is never used in reference to zentraedi technology,. just "main power" and "reflex furnace". we know main power (and by extension, zentraedi reflex furnaces) use protoculture due to dialog between khyron and his crew in the scenes leading up to the theft of protoculture from macross city.

the master's powerplants are never described with the term 'reactor' either.

hell, even with the invid, it was always "reflex furnace"

the only use of the term reactor is in relation to earth built 1st generation mecha.

given that at the time humanity didn't even know what protoculture was (beyond suspicion it had something to do with zentraedi advanced technology), points to their mecha and weapons using non-protoculture fuels.
and the fact fact that they could hardly be using an alien fuel obtained from the SDF-1's tanks to power the rather massive number of mecha and superweapons being built without someone noticing the SDF-1 was providing far more of the fuel than physically possible..

if they were using protoculture, they'd have not only have a pretty good idea what protoculture is, even if they knew it by another name, but they'd also have figured out the SDf-1 had a device to produce the stuff in bulk.. when we know humanity was ignorant of why the zentraedi would want the SDF-1 at the time.

[Seto Kaiba]

Based on the tv series: the SDF-1, Khyron's cruiser & the Masters' Cityship all use reactors. The Zentraedi & the Masters' have reactors that utilize protoculture so its not unreasonable to believe the SDF-1 also has them, and that smaller versions exist such as those used on the VFs.

glitterboy2098 debunked this one already, so I'll pass it on by and not belabor the point.

IMO Robotech's current creative director actually doesn't know the property under his care very well so he falls back on the OSM which he knows somewhat better and has much more source material. Also doesn't help that he won't let continuity get in the way of what he thinks is a good story.

Honestly, based on my own experiences with the man I think he knows the property he's been appointed to stewardship of fairly well. The ever-diminishing emphasis on protoculture in the rebooted Robotech universe has less to do with any affection he has for the OSM and more to do with the fact that his job is to take Robotech from being a poorly made and teaspoon-shallow toy commercial (that was signally unsuccessful in that capacity) to being the credible mecha anime franchise that Harmony Gold wants to push as an alternative to Macross and Gundam. I think what we have is one of those "you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs" moments. Tommy is probably using the OSM for the simple reason that it's more consistent with the animation than anything else.

My belief is that the diminishing emphasis on protoculture is the result of Harmony Gold's efforts to make Robotech a credible, modern mecha anime franchise. Robotech's source material is three "real robot"-type mecha shows, and in that kind of material there's generally a nugget of hard science at the core of the fictional technology. Gundam has the real physics behind its Minovsky reactors, Macross's thermonuclear reaction turbines are basically fusion++, and even Full Metal Panic's palladium reactors have a basis in real science. Tommy, I think, took a good long look at the concepts of protoculture in the series and realized that they're dumb as hell. "Magic flowers" are one of the main things that Robotech gets made fun of for, it's poorly and inconsistently explained/depicted, and generally makes no sense, verging on magic in some sources. That's not the kind of thing you want to have if you're trying to make it as an entry in the "real robot" genre. "Real robot" type mecha don't run on magic. I think protoculture is a casualty of Tommy having to make Robotech credible as a mecha series, which is a fool's errand anyway.

Um... it actually says nothing of the sort. All it DOES say is that protoculture has a higher energy density (more energy is extracted per unit of fuel mass) than conventional nuclear sources. By how much, it doesn't say. What constitutes their "conventional" nuclear sources" is also unsaid.

Wasn't responding to the "by how much" aspect, merely that it is more powerful than nuclear.

Off hand I can't think of a source that might quantify it.

The way you phrased it certainly made it sound as though you were saying that the "massively more potent" part was what the Infopedia said, which it doesn't.

^

The power density of Protoculture canisters exceeds that of conventional nuclear power sources.

Probably comparing it to reactors being used on nuclear vessels of the late 90's or early 2000's, around the time Zor's SDF arrived and was first being studied. If they are comparing pc to the nuclear power most commonly available at the same time period in the Macross Universe (OSM) then no idea

Pre-1999 to early 2000s is still conventional nuclear fission in the OSM Macross universe, chief. The thermonuclear reaction overtechnology didn't come into common use until the mid-2000s. So, if we assume conventional fission power would be what they mean by "conventional nuclear sources", we can slap an absolute minimum value in terms of MJ per kilogram on protoculture. Uranium-235's energy density is 79,500,000MJ per kilogram, and protoculture must be at least THAT energy-dense. (To put it in perspective, gasoline is about 46MJ per kilogram, and compressed hydrogen is around 123MJ per kilogram.)

Now, that means there's a pretty big delta that protoculture's energy density can exist in without actually exceeding the energy density of nuclear fusion fuel materials. Deuterium-Tritium fusion produces 330,000,000MJ per kilogram of fuel, so protoculture could easily be very close to the output of a fusion powerplant (if they're consuming fuel at the same rate), without violating its condition that it has better energy density than conventional nuclear sources. The rate at which a protoculture cell is consumed is very low, however, so we're not really looking at an even playing field anyway.

[rtsurfer]

Thanks for debunking “reactors” in the Robotech tv series

Those Veritech fighter engines are built on a reactor design. With that kind of propulsion, believe me, you can go anywhere.

Based on the tv series: the SDF-1, Khyron's cruiser & the Masters' Cityship all use reactors. The Zentraedi & the Masters' have reactors that utilize protoculture so its not unreasonable to believe the SDF-1 also has them, and that smaller versions exist such as those used on the VFs.

actually the term 'reactor' is never used in reference to zentraedi technology,. just "main power" and "reflex furnace". we know main power (and by extension, zentraedi reflex furnaces) use protoculture due to dialog between khyron and his crew in the scenes leading up to the theft of protoculture from macross city.

Khyron mentions reactors that need protoculture in "Season's Greetings",
Khyron: What is the status of the main reactors?
Engineer1: If we had a few days they could be functional but takeoff would still be impossible.
Engineer2: We are without power from the main reactors because we lack protoculture.
...
Khyron: Now hear this. Attack squadrons prepare for battle, we are mounting a raid on the micronian factory. Our objective, the protoculture matrix necessary to refuel the main reactors.

the master's powerplants are never described with the term 'reactor' either.

Louie describes the reactor they are blowing up on the Masters' cityship in “Danger Zone”,
Louie: That's it Lt., the reactor that harnesses the magnetic bonding.

hell, even with the invid, it was always "reflex furnace"

the only use of the term reactor is in relation to earth built 1st generation mecha.

Actually Earth built VFs based on alien Robotechnology and the SDF-1's reactor control room that is responsible for plasma shields in “Blitzkrieg”,
Lisa: Reactor control, bridge request status report on first and third plasma shields.

given that at the time humanity didn't even know what protoculture was (beyond suspicion it had something to do with zentraedi advanced technology), points to their mecha and weapons using non-protoculture fuels.
and the fact fact that they could hardly be using an alien fuel obtained from the SDF-1's tanks to power the rather massive number of mecha and superweapons being built without someone noticing the SDF-1 was providing far more of the fuel than physically possible..

if they were using protoculture, they'd have not only have a pretty good idea what protoculture is, even if they knew it by another name, but they'd also have figured out the SDf-1 had a device to produce the stuff in bulk.. when we know humanity was ignorant of why the zentraedi would want the SDF-1 at the time.

Most of this was already addressed either above and/or in the Super Alpha Shadow Fighter thread, no sense repeating myself.

“Due to a security risk related to the AUL threat, details of the new super fuel are not for general dissemination. Rumors persist that this fuel, used primarily to operate Robotech vehicles, is being produced exclusively onboard the rebuilt alien spaceship. Of course these claims are ridiculous and have been disproven. Thanks to Robotechnology our lives will be easier and the world is becoming a better place.” –UN/UEG Public Information Bureau

The Zentreadi had millions of battlecruisers, many times that in clones and a gigantic command fortress, who would ever think that the SDF-1 had the only facilities capable of producing fuel for the Robotech Masters' Empire – apparently not Lisa and her contemporaries. She knew they wanted the SDF-1 and suspected their goal was something related to Robotech and protoculture which she believed was their highest science. What's really ironic is that after all the destruction (Earth's Rain of Death and Dolza's Grand Fleet) because of the SDF-1 and its hidden protoculture factory matrix, they never found it even with Breetai and Exedore's help.

[ShadowLogan]

The way you phrased it certainly made it sound as though you were saying that the "massively more potent" part was what the Infopedia said, which it doesn't.

It certainly says it is "more potent", by how much isn't known so you could have put massively/slightly in (or other adjectives) and neither would necessarily contradict the infopedia description. I dismissed the "massively" part as hyperbole, as it is a relative term.

[Protoculture]

Okay, if we are talking post 3rd RT War & in the ongoing Shadow Chronicles arc, I'd found that quite plausible. I mean, most PC on Earth has dried up with all FoL went up with Invid's flight to the stars. That and SDF-3 with THE last workable PC Matrix is MIA.

The head honcho on UEEF-occupied Earth & immediate colonies might want to revert / research alternative fuel to PC as to it to be compatible with the current Robotechnology. I'd imagined Earth fallen back to good ole SLMH for fueling mechas, while ships being powered by remaining PCs & suplemented by Karbarran imported fuel, the Sekitan ores (heh, the pre-production of Ark-Angel by Tommy Yune mentioned a Sekiton-cannon).

Now, would it be the ol' 1st or 2nd gen fusion reactors / engines, or newly whipped up breed of both PC+SLMH technology. Turn to OSM then, GC Mospeada. Sure the PC Cell in RT:NG is basically HBT hydrogen fuel battery packs. Tadaaaaaa .... new power source for the mechas & reconstruction efforts post Invid War.

SLMH fusion tech re-engineered into a standardised powerpacks reminiscent of PC Cell ... the HBT. Heh .....

[Robroy]

The UEEF has certainly shown it has the manufacturing capability, it could produce engine conversion kits, or hole new mecha powered by SLMH. What it probably does not have is the infrastructure to produce SLMH and supply it to the front lines.

In my game the early colonies stayed with SLMH for their locally used mecha and ASC ships. The PC powered stuff that was produced went to the UEEF.

[jedi078]

I too stay away from the whole SMLH powered mecha idea. Instead all mecha run off protoculture (if not no MECT bonus whatsoever), and SLMH is actually the fuel (i.e. reaction mass) used for maneuvering in space.

The reason being is to power mecha by something other than Protoculture takes away the one important aspect of Robotech, the importance of Protoculture. If mankind wasn't dependent upon Protoculture then why would a bunch of wars be fought over the stuff?

Take the situation of the Second Robotech War. If the Masters had simply asked Earth (not that they did) that they wanted the protoculture matrix thought to be within the wreckage of the SDF-1 politicians on Earth would gladly give it to them in return for a cease fire and armistice. After all if Earth really doesn’t need protoculture power due to the advent of SLMH then why fight a war over the stuff?

[Jerell]

I too stay away from the whole SMLH powered mecha idea. Instead all mecha run off protoculture (if not no MECT bonus whatsoever), and SLMH is actually the fuel (i.e. reaction mass) used for maneuvering in space.

The reason being is to power mecha by something other than Protoculture takes away the one important aspect of Robotech, the importance of Protoculture. If mankind wasn't dependent upon Protoculture then why would a bunch of wars be fought over the stuff?

Take the situation of the Second Robotech War. If the Masters had simply asked Earth (not that they did) that they wanted the protoculture matrix thought to be within the wreckage of the SDF-1 politicians on Earth would gladly give it to them in return for a cease fire and armistice. After all if Earth really doesn’t need protoculture power due to the advent of SLMH then why fight a war over the stuff?

That's pretty much my feeling on the matter as well.

[ShadowLogan]

I too stay away from the whole SMLH powered mecha idea. Instead all mecha run off protoculture (if not no MECT bonus whatsoever), and SLMH is actually the fuel (i.e. reaction mass) used for maneuvering in space.

The reason being is to power mecha by something other than Protoculture takes away the one important aspect of Robotech, the importance of Protoculture. If mankind wasn't dependent upon Protoculture then why would a bunch of wars be fought over the stuff?

Take the situation of the Second Robotech War. If the Masters had simply asked Earth (not that they did) that they wanted the protoculture matrix thought to be within the wreckage of the SDF-1 politicians on Earth would gladly give it to them in return for a cease fire and armistice. After all if Earth really doesn’t need protoculture power due to the advent of SLMH then why fight a war over the stuff?

If you watch "Bye Bye Mars" at ~17:48-9 when Lisa is adjusting the base's Reflex Furnace we see a reactor diagram with 3 fuel lines (each a different color). To me that suggest that Reflex Furnaces may have 3 materials involved in energy production.

If that is the case (and it isn't simply 3 separate lines of the same material), Protoculture could be exotic with the other two being more mundane in comparison (SLMH, more mundane forms of hydrogen, Helium-3, etc). It's also possible that one or two of those materials is used for energy extraction and not the direct energy production.

Alternatively one could treat the SLMH fuel as laced with Protoculture acting as an additive. (ex. Adding Fluorine to Liquid Oxygen burning rocket engines is known to increase performance, it has been abandoned mostly because of the toxicity of the material). In this way PC reserves are maximized during TMS-TRM period, but also leaves them still vulnerable to Invid Protoculture detectors.

[jedi078]

Alternatively one could treat the SLMH fuel as laced with Protoculture acting as an additive. (ex. Adding Fluorine to Liquid Oxygen burning rocket engines is known to increase performance, it has been abandoned mostly because of the toxicity of the material). In this way PC reserves are maximized during TMS-TRM period, but also leaves them still vulnerable to Invid Protoculture detectors.

I could live with that idea. I just don't like the idea of removing Protoculture altogether as a power source. Like others have said if you take out protoculture you might as well be playing an RPG of the original shows and not Robotech.

[Seto Kaiba]

The reason being is to power mecha by something other than Protoculture takes away the one important aspect of Robotech, the importance of Protoculture. If mankind wasn't dependent upon Protoculture then why would a bunch of wars be fought over the stuff?

The problem with that line of reasoning is that humanity didn't even know about protoculture until the 1st War was already well underway, and humanity's usage of it doesn't actually become a factor until the New Generation. The series has only ever established the Monster destroid and the New Generation mecha as running on the stuff, after all, and that first war fought over it was because humanity didn't even know what they had.

Take the situation of the Second Robotech War. If the Masters had simply asked Earth (not that they did) that they wanted the protoculture matrix thought to be within the wreckage of the SDF-1 politicians on Earth would gladly give it to them in return for a cease fire and armistice. After all if Earth really doesn’t need protoculture power due to the advent of SLMH then why fight a war over the stuff?

Because the UEDF's supreme commander was a rabid shoot-first-ask-questions-later xenophobe who was bitterly against opening a dialogue with the Robotech Masters? By the time the Masters Saga rolled around, the politicians didn't have a great deal of say in policy decisions anyway... what with Leonard essentially running things and the prime minister having existed mostly for show. There's also the implication in a few spots that they didn't actually know what they had (same problem as before) because Macross City was reportedly sealed for "radiation", not to hide the protoculture matrix that's stuck in the wreckage of the SDF-1. Or, if one were charitable, they were protecting it because they wanted to keep a supply line open to the UEEF, who DID use the stuff and who had the bulk of Earth's defensive capability at the time.

Like others have said if you take out protoculture you might as well be playing an RPG of the original shows and not Robotech.

Considering where the content for most of the books originated, people using 2nd Edition pretty much ARE playing a RPG of the original shows with a thin Robotech veneer applied via minor manipulation of the fluff text.

(Most of Robotech's mecha stats are derived almost entirely from OSM sources anyway, though the 2nd Edition RPG's taken it to a whole new level... especially in the Macross Saga sourcebook.)

[Daeglan]

I don't understand why they changed protoculture. What is the story?

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't understand why they changed protoculture. What is the story?

Well, in theory the move to make the first two generations worth of mecha run on fusion instead of protoculture was a decision that Robotech's creative director Tommy Yune made to address some of the issues with Robotech's badly broken technical continuity. The goal was to introduce some aspect wherein the mecha of Robotech could unarguably be shown to have advanced between generations, to remedy the issue that the official (and OSM-derived) stats painted a picture of a consistent decline in capability following the Macross Saga. That way, the Alpha did have some area of demonstrable advancement over the VF-1... its protoculture power plant.

It's technically based on the dialogue of the Macross Saga, the specific scene being where Rick first sees the VF-1s in space and Roy tells him their engines are "based on a reactor design". There's considerable suspicion among some fans that Tommy made this call because of his personal preference for Macross, and/or that it's indirectly affirming the common view that the Masters Saga is the technological low point of the series.

(As a matter of personal opinion, I don't think making the Alpha's explicitly-stated Achilles heel the one area where its technology is demonstrably more advanced than its predecessor is such a great idea...)

[rtsurfer]

I don't understand why they changed protoculture. What is the story?

Well, in theory the move to make the first two generations worth of mecha run on fusion instead of protoculture was a decision that Robotech's creative director Tommy Yune made to address some of the issues with Robotech's badly broken technical continuity. The goal was to introduce some aspect wherein the mecha of Robotech could unarguably be shown to have advanced between generations, to remedy the issue that the official (and OSM-derived) stats painted a picture of a consistent decline in capability following the Macross Saga. That way, the Alpha did have some area of demonstrable advancement over the VF-1... its protoculture power plant.

It's technically based on the dialogue of the Macross Saga, the specific scene being where Rick first sees the VF-1s in space and Roy tells him their engines are "based on a reactor design". There's considerable suspicion among some fans that Tommy made this call because of his personal preference for Macross, and/or that it's indirectly affirming the common view that the Masters Saga is the technological low point of the series.

(As a matter of personal opinion, I don't think making the Alpha's explicitly-stated Achilles heel the one area where its technology is demonstrably more advanced than its predecessor is such a great idea...)

John Kelley: a Question for the Master...err, Mr. Marker.
SLMH, was it your Idea, or somehting TY/Hg had for the rpg?
August 6, 2012 at 6:26pm

Amalgamated Fiction - Detroit: All me. Once the Valkyries and Destroids went back to having fusion reactors, I needed a fuel to act not only as fuel (Remember Ben leaking fuel?), but also to use as mass for maneuvering in space. I asked Justin Kugler, my Aerospace Tech Advisor, what those reactors would run on that would be liquid, and he and I brainstormed and came up with SLMH. It's a real thing by the way, but it's super hard to make. We figured that the Overtechnology found in the SDF-1 would be the key to making it easier to use.
August 6, 2012 at 6:35pm

John Kelley: Overtechnology? lol, or robotechnology
August 6, 2012 at 6:49pm

Amalgamated Fiction - Detroit: Heh, Overtechnology. I'll be the first one to admit that I like Macross a lot more than Robotech in some aspects.
August 6, 2012 at 7:04pm

John Kelley: at least you are honest about it
August 6, 2012 at 7:20pm

Craig Sapp: It would have been too obvious to use Protoculture, the multipurpose fuel source that's already used in Robotech... lol
August 10, 2012 at 2:34pm

Amalgamated Fiction - Detroit: Yeah, except it's not. Not in the Macross part of the story anymore. Harmony Gold changed that, and now Protoculture isn't really A Thing until into the Southern Cross stuff. Do you think I just invented SLMH for the hell of it? To make a bunch of people mad? Because I get that **** /all/ the time from Robotech fans.
August 10, 2012 at 4:24pm

John Kelley: to be honest, Craig is Right thou, until 2008, Robotech had 1 fuel.
and the Show that was written in 1985 hasnt been changed to reflect the new "direction" the "creative" staff at HG decided to add 15 years expostfacto....
the problem is, Tommy also has the Alpha being invented in 2014... and using Protoculture... but the Southern Cross Mecha in 2030 using SLMH...
I know robotech fans are arse holes, but many of the facts of the show were established in 1985, and it kinds spits in out face when were told,in 2008, by a guy hired in 2001, that the 1985 show is wrong, the dialog is wrong... and what was sold to us for nearly 2 decades is wrong... infact EVEN Tommy had the Macross Era mecha using Protoculture when he wrote "From the Stars" 2002 comic series...
August 10, 2012 at 6:33pm · Edited

Amalgamated Fiction - Detroit: Fair. Here's the thing. Tommy's the boss of Robotech, and when I was writing for him his word was law.
August 10, 2012 at 6:04pm

John Kelley: I understand that, but you can understand a fans frustration, when they don't pay attentions to Tommy's random rambling on Robotech.com, and when they see something that contradicts nearly 23 years of HG approved Canon, they are going to blame the guy on the sig line... not the guy giving orders...
August 10, 2012 at 6:10pm

John Kelley: Its why I asked the origonal question, for the last few years I had assumed TY was the one who made up SLMH. because he was trying to make the 1st gen mecha Fusion based like in Macross.... since its not possible for them to have Robotech stand on its own w/i blatantly copying from Macross.
August 10, 2012 at 6:20pm

Amalgamated Fiction - Detroit: Yeah, I dig that. Tommy said "Fusion Reactors" and my line of inquiry immediately went to "What do fusion reactors eat"? Also, the Valkyries would need some kind of mass to throw around to help them maneuver in space.
August 10, 2012 at 6:21pm

John Kelley: funny thing is, I never thought they weren't powered by fuson reactors the old RPG said they had: Main Engine: FF-2001 fusion turbine in each leg....
I just assumed that the Protoculture & Robotechnology made Fusion possible.
in Eulogy, Colonel Jonathan comes back to Solider town with a few Jerry-cans of Liquid Protoculture captured from the invid... I figured the "fuel" been was leaking was Liquid protoculture again.
The Canister system of the last era was simply an easier way to store the stuff for longer periods of time (like the many years it sat in Denver waiting for Scott to find the cans there)
August 10, 2012 at 6:31pm

[ShadowLogan]

I don't understand why they changed protoculture. What is the story?

Probably wanted it to be more Sci-Fi than Sci-Fantasy as it was before.

As to why the SLMH and PC thing. I wouldn't say it is entirely new in the context of the RPG version of RT. In 1E you did have Protoculture/Fusion engines w/regard to the TMS/TRM settings, likely the result of OSM based information being "adjusted" to fit RT (and wasn't done for 2E or the RT.com Infopedia stats)

to remedy the issue that the official (and OSM-derived) stats painted a picture of a consistent decline in capability following the Macross Saga.

Of course the other option, that would make more sense, would be to revise the OSM stats to avoid the decline in the first place. Increasing listed flight speeds (V-mode) by a factor of:
Logan x2.25
AGAC x 1.75
Alpha x1.5 (x1.6 for Z)
Beta by 2.25

would allow them to look less anemic in comparison to the VF-1 resulting in more stagnation than decline. The decrease in ordnance carriage mass could indicate the weapons are more effective.

It's technically based on the dialogue of the Macross Saga, the specific scene being where Rick first sees the VF-1s in space and Roy tells him their engines are "based on a reactor design".

I know the scene you are thinking of, but it is pretty ambiguous. One could substitute a Reflex Furnace for an Nuclear Reactor in a NERVA design with the result qualifying as "based on a reactor design", but I can't think of a clear instance that would point to nuclear being the explanation (unless in RT REFLEX = NUCLEAR).

As a matter of personal opinion, I don't think making the Alpha's explicitly-stated Achilles heel the one area where its technology is demonstrably more advanced than its predecessor is such a great idea...

It isn't a great idea. But then that isn't the only area it can be shown to be demonstratively more advanced:
-NG VFs are shown to have room to spare given things like the Alpha's cyclone Bay, Beta's "passenger bay", their docking system all are things that occupy space that could have been better utilized.
-they sport integrated conformal/internal missile launchers, apparently from the start, resulting in a large aerodynamically friendly config compared to previous generations of mecha
-some degree of miniaturization is also likely to have occurred (allows for the wasted space above, but also allows the typical size reduction we see)

Personally I have doubts that the Alpha should have been made into the intended successor to the Valkaryie, falling into that role due to circumstances is another matter. The Beta fighter (solo), at least in space, appears to result in a closer successor than the Alpha ever could. With some better aerodynamics (more of a flying wing look than it has now) it probably could be made to be an atmospheric successor, with the wing hard points being the weak spot (baring the changes in the more aerodynamic version doesn't solve that) as they have to be emptied in order to go to Battloid mode.