REF 271st Dragoon

[Jefffar]

Not a bad looking organization.

Personaly I'd swap out each of the MAC IIIs for 3 Spartan 2s and a Raidar X2

[Ice Dragon]

You will need more ships for a force of this size (add a few Horizonts).

[Novastar]

I agree with Ice Dragon, you need to add some Horizonts to get troops down-planet quick enough.

I'd recommend no less than 6, to keep troops moving smoothly (2 loading troops, 2 on their way back, and 2 underway to drop off troops).

It's also a case of "not putting all your eggs in one basket" too...

[Jefffar]

Another look at the gear has lead me to think this:

Swap the 2 MACs out, and replace with 6 REF Spartans
Swap out the 10 Alphas and 2 Super VF-1s and replace with 8 Alphas and 4 Betas.
Maybe replace a few of the cyclone teams with either Veritech Cars or VHT.

The result is a formation with superior speed and mobility to the origional, while at the same time increased firepower.

Otherwise, pretty good.

[glitterboy2098]

1.) how did you fit all that into one Garfish? you have more than a thousand personell, 600 cyclones, and almost 300 mecha.

a garfish can carry about 2 dozen mecha, about 100 cyclones, and around 500 personell (including pilots and cyc riders.)

you would need at least 3-4 garfish to transport this unit, and even then you'd have no stardrive, so you'd be stuck. you could have a Ikazuchi transport the ships, but then why not use the troops of the Ikazuchi to do the job? they would have 2 times the mecha, as well as able to support the ground forces with orbital bombardment.



2.) Canberans? you mean Karbarans(mckinny), or Carbonarians(RPG), right?

[Jefffar]

The idea of swapping out the MACs with Spartans is that the Spartans are more mobile, so you can be more flexible with them and that their long range missiles can be used for both air deffence and fire support. Incidently, the origional purpose of the MACs is as a surface to space cannon.

The Veritech shift was to provide the force with a more effective close air support team (remember the Beta is technically a bomber) plus the Legios combinations are faster moving, and harder hitting than the Super VF-1. Additionally, the Legios give the Dragoon a small, yet competent organic interceptor force (again improved air defence) that can also self deploy as an escort during the initial run to the planet's surface.

Incidently, the Invid primarily attack from the air, so the more air defense you have, the better.

The primary goal of this team is to deploy and hold, so some heavier armour and firepower (VHTs, Veritech Cars or more Destroids) would be usefull. I think the VHTs and Veritech Cars can be added without sacrificing the "light" nature of this force (something which the MACs kind of ruined anyway).

Bottom line is you basically have a force of Airborne Infanty, rather than Dragoons here. They come from above, they are lightly equipped and they are basically used to hold an objective. Most of the world's current large airborne forces have organic air defence, air support and even armour (Soviet BMDs are a great example).

I also think you are wasting this forces primary asset by tieing it to a defensive role. This force is very, very mobile. I could see them as the first deployed to protect a low intensity LZ, but as soon as the next major group had reached the LZ, I'd turn these boys loose for reconascience and raiding operations. I'd also use them as flanking troops for the main force. They also make a good "fire brigade" able to quickly reinforce a troubled sector to allow the armoured units to gather for a stronger counterattack.

Agaisnt a hot LZ I'd toss in a much heavier force first, in order to crush the immediate resistance.

You've got a nugget here for a very excellent elite force (the fact that they use Cyclones as infantry indicates the elite designation). I think with a few adjustments to their TOE, they will become much more powerful in their designated role, and much more flexible in performing other roles. I also think you have a slight disconnect here between the TOE of the force, the role you want the force to play, and the nature of the opposition.

[Jefffar]

Well, yeah, there is some thougt with this that the REF does need a good large scale assault transport for landing large numbers of Destroids and Hover Tanks quickly.

Considering how many spare Zent Re-entry pods there are around, I'm surprised this idea has been put forward.

[glitterboy2098]

you know, once i refitted a zent landing ship as a mobile city (ALA macross), would fit right in with this stuff.


lost the papers with the alterations (i even traced the deckplans with my refits.)

i'll have to draw it back up, would make a great homebase for all these units. (i even was able to cram a dry dock facility capable of holding a salan class zent scout in. tough fit, but it fit with the right mods to the aft hanger. would be able to fit several garfish.)


shall ressurect this idea?

[The Artist Formerly]

On my old computer I had a Beta fighter with stats to allow it to be used as a Medi-vac unit. Strips most of the weapons and Battloid mode in favor of extra space for ambulence detail.

[Jefffar]

Just a side track . . I wonder how many Zentraedi ship hulks the RDF and ASC used for weapons tests during the reconstruction and pre master's war era?

[glitterboy2098]

probably quite a few.

but with 5 million (give or take a few thou.) you'd still have lots of ships to refit. and we know much of bretai's force survived.

you also have the factory sattelite, which while its mecha lines where down, its ship repair and construction facility was likely still up. (though i think the SDF-3 was just way too human to be built by the RM comps.)

[The Artist Formerly]

probably quite a few.

but with 5 million (give or take a few thou.) you'd still have lots of ships to refit. and we know much of bretai's force survived.

you also have the factory sattelite, which while its mecha lines where down, its ship repair and construction facility was likely still up. (though i think the SDF-3 was just way too human to be built by the RM comps.)

Dolza's debris belt figures very prominately into the Reconstruction era adventures, but it's never mentioned in any of the later books. I always figured that it was because Earth recycled most of that to build the REF's fleet of ships.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, i'm already halfway through converting.

the only thing i'll say:

Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid.

[The Artist Formerly]

And now to rain on your parade:

Exactly how many people do you think are "wounded" by MDC weapons fire? This isnt a typical, modern day war we are talking about here.... everyone who loses armor integrity and takes "wounds" is going to be hit by the equivalent of a light anti-tank rocket, at the *very least*.

I like the idea, i just dont see that it has much, if any, place in Robotech, where unarmored people who get hit with weapons fire (especially in the Invid era, where you are always fighting MDC equipped oponents) are going to get vaporized or blown to little itty bitty bits.

I would have to disagree.

An explosive weapon tosses metal bits around. A mouth full of air drawn while Plasma weapons are in use can burn lungs. Disease is the number one killer on every battle field in history. Mix in alien inviroments and you have even more troubles. The ways someone can get hurt in the Robotech enviroment are more numerous then I have posts.

[glitterboy2098]

alright, my submission. i ignored the merc building rules, since with the scale involved, they kind of break down.


like i said, be afraid, be very afraid.












U.S.S. Freedom

Modified Quiltra Queleual Landing Ship.

This Modified vessel is the Flagship of the REF second fleet, and is one of the most impressive Vessels in the REF navy. it started out as a member of Breetai's Imperioclas Fleet, and was damaged in the fighting against Dolza's Grand Fleet. The Humans have rebuilt it, and converted it into a Virtual Space-going city, most of the Zentreadi fittings have been removed, and accommodations for Humans have been built in their place. A monorail Mass Transit system has been built along each deck, which the crew affectionately refers to as "Turbo-lifts"
externally, the ship looks almost unchanged, with the REF insignia being one of the only two things indicating it is not a Zentreadi Fleet ship. the second indication is a sign added by the Factory Satellite workers as a joke, and too large to remove. on the Aft of the ship, between the main engines, is a section painted as a bumper sticker, with the text, "We Brake For Nobody". the crew of the Freedom was not particually thrilled with this odd bit of customization, but have tolerated it.
the captain of the Freedom is a Full sized Zentreadi who goes by the name "Siar Yonka", although no one knows what his original name was. captain Yonka is a competent officer, but has had a difficult time adjusting to Human Naval tactics. however his command staff is excellent, and makes up for any short comings of the captain.

as the Freedom is the Flagship of the 2nd Fleet, it is never seen with out several Ikazuchi and Garfish escorts, and with its vast array of mecha added to that of its escorts, it is nearly unstoppable.
the second fleet fought in the battle for tyrol, driving back the orbiting Invid ocupation force, while the first fleet and the SDF-3 eliminated the ground force. the 2nd fleet also assisted in the assault on Optera, and is currently mopping up the remains of the Regents forces in the Sentinels worlds.


Crew: 6000 Humans/micronized zentreadi, 500 Full sized Zentreadi
Combat troops: 80,000 Humans/Micronized Zentreadi, 600 Full sized Zentreadi
Support Crew: 200,000 humans/ Micronized Zentreadi

Mecha Compliment:

VAF-6 Alpha: 600
VBF-1 Beta: 240
VF-1 Valkyrie: 240
VF-1V Vindicator: 240
VLF-3 Logan: 480
VLF-3A Super Logan: 120
VDF-1 Delta: 72

VHT-1-ASC Spartas: 180
RDF Excaliber Mk-VI: 144
RDF Gladiator MK-II: 180
MAC-II Monster: 24
RDF Raider X MK-X: 240
RDF Spartan MK-XII: 240
REF Excaliber MK-VII: 240
REF Gladiator MK-III: 360
MAC-III Monster: 36
REF Radier X MK-XI: 120
REF Spartan MK-XIII: 180
Defender Destriod: 120
Gladius Destriod: 48
Light Insurgence Battliod: 120
MAC Mini-Monster: 36
TBP-Z1 Battlepod: 240
OBP-Z2 Officer's Pod: 48
Green Bioroid: 60
Red Bioroid: 5

Female Power Armor: 120
Male Power Armor: 120
Officers Pod: 60
Fighter Pod: 120
Recovery Pod: 36

Cyclones: 8,000

ATV: Missile Launcher: 120
APT Tank Carrier: 120
QF-300E Ghost Drone: 120
AAT-30: 240
AAT-40: 120
ML-3 Fork Lift: 1000
TCH-4 Tractor: 480
Hover Cargo Hauler: 500
Hover Transport Truck: 500
AMR-10 Mecha Retrieval Vehicle: 60
MTA-Titan Command Vehicle: 4
Searcher SFV: 60

Horizont: 48 (4 fitted to transport a single MTA-Titan.)
Zentreadi Landing Pod: 24
RDF Shuttle: 12
Cat's Eye Recon: 36
CRP-Z3 Cyclops: 12





Deck plan Alterations.:
Level 1:
Fighter pod bay and battlepod bay converted to house most of the ships veritechs. catapult tubes have been constructed to launch the fighters quickly. (remember those launch tubes from Battlestar Galactica?)
the Barracks have been refitted for human sized occupants, replacing the single zentreadi sized rooms with several apartment buildings, a small park, a mess hall, and a simulator complex.

Level 2:
most of this deck has been hollowed out and a small city has been constructed along the length of the hull (compartments 3, 4, and 5) this city includes a central park, mass transit system, several theaters, and many resteraunts, arcades, and stores.
compartment 6 has been converted into a large base forthe Destriods and their pilots.

Level 3:
The Crew Quarters have been refitted as apartments.
the mecha storage bay has been converted into a MP station.

Level 4:
the stasis chamber has been refitted to store food and other perishables. most of the Zentreadi stasis chambers have been removed, replaced with cargo stasis pods, and several medical stasis pods.
the barracks has been refitted and expanded (taking space from the stasis chamber compartment), and is the living quarters for the full sized Zentreadi warriors.
the Mecha bays are the storage for the full sized Zentreadi mecha, as well as many of the detroids and about half of the Transport Vehicles. (Horizonts, Landing pods, ect.)

Level 5:
Officers quarters refiited as apartments.
the rest of the deck has been refitted to acommedate human sized personel.

Level6:
Half of the storage rooms on this deck have been converted to automated factories, alowing quick replacement of spare parts, ammunition, and other material needs.
The other half have been converted into Hydroponics Bays, growing many popular grains, fruit, and vegtables, and also includes a Shrimp culture tank, the shrimp being used to simulate most forms of meat.

Level 7:
Compartment 15 has been refitted into a drydock facility, capable of handleing up to two garfish transports at a single time.
The mecha bays have been converted into loading bays for about half of the Transport Vehicles.


Notable Units:

181st Veritech Squadron:
the 181st is an elite squadron of 12 VDF-1 Delta Fighters. this squadron often leads assualts on invid hives, and is the only squadron in the second fleet that all pilots desire to be a part of. the 181st color scheme is battleship grey, with red stripes on the wings.

Highflight Squadron:
this is a squadron of old RDF pilots in Older VF-1 Valkyries. the fighters are block 1 Valkyries, some of the first ever produced (no jet lasers). however these fighters have been modified to accept FAST packs to increase their firepower. Highflight had its start as a Planetary defense aquadron prior to dolza's assualt, and was one of the few land based squadrons to survive Dolza's bombardment. The role of highflight in the second fleet is usually ship defense, flying intercepts on enemy mecha attacking the flagship. Highflight Colors are standard RDF, and their unit insignia is a VF-1 leaving a contrail as it fly's away from earth toward the veiwer.

[The Artist Formerly]

metal bits that do MDC. If your armor integrity is breached, and you are in the blast radius of a fragmentation explosion from a mini missile, missile, or rifle grenade, (and the Invid only use missiles and mini missiles) you take MDC. Which = you are a corpse. Unless you are a Spherian. Then you dont need a doctor.

Yeah, but 30 MDC dealt to a human hand, just fries the hand, or cuts it off, or turns it into gooey paste splattered all over your controls.

Again, armor integrity breached. And most likely, *when* the armor was breached, the person was cooked. How many times have you been reduced to EXACTLY -0- MDC on your armor? As much as a single MDC point over, and you are dead meat.

Depends on where you get hit and how merciful or cruel the GM is feeling. Your reflecting the game system in it's most technical terms. Under those rules, one could take a 9mm pistol, hold it to their head, and pull the trigger, only to survive the hit and is able to keep on moving, if under some penilties. That's only 2d6x2 points of damage and a roll on a random table. It's important to remember that GMs can adjucate some issues as they see the need to do.

Except this one - where we can see, in the show, that entire forces are wiped out en masse by concentrated enemy forces. How many people are going to even have the opportunity to catch a disease? Again, only if your armor is breached, and most likely, you are already dead as it is.

Oh what about a tiny breach in the back of the knee joint? Crack in the face plate? Broken air filter? Bad fitting on the shoulder joint? Body armor is not perfect, nor does it function well all the time.

There are plenty of ways that you can get hurt that would entail you living - almost *none* of them happen on the battlefield. A Mobile surgical hospital is nigh pointless, since well more than 90% of the "wounded" on any battlefield with the Invid will be outright casualties, and the ones that arent are probably downed mecha pilots who were shook up when their mecha was taken out... having a mobile field hospital to service less than 10% of the troops seems rather silly.

I disagree. A cyclone rider in full armor and wearing a Battloid mode Cyclone catches a SRM from a Cranky malcontent in Blue Squad. On a critical strike (max damage of 120 MDC) I would not only inflict damage off the main body of the cyclone, I'd inflict some SDC damage to the cyclone rider while I was at it. Makes the fight much more dramatic.

Similarly, while running a game set on Invid earth, the PCs fell into a trap by Freedom fighter hunters, who then turned them over the Invid. While running, with out the use of their (captured) MDC toys and armor, through the Genisis pit of Vietnam, one PC was bitten by an ant. That does MDC. But based on the circumstances, instead, the ant just lopped her arm off mid forearm. Heinous blood loss insued. However, based on her performance, the stage five director of the pit, decided to attach a invid metal prostetic, and let her go. Made for a great story.

While there are no such guide lines in Robotech, Rifts has some work done up on these kinds of hits that plug in nicely. Adds to the drama and to the back ground of the setting.

Your not wrong in your reading of the rules, but I think you are being overly literal in your reading of them.

[Janus]

i like the iddea of a MASH unit. I especially like the idea of taking hits that are not to the torso or the head as just taking off said appendage. i have always felt that just because something does MD does not mean that the character should die. in robotech there are many ways to lose a hand leg arm without damage to the torso. A little common sense can go a long way.

The MASH unit you have will definatley be added to my ever growing roboerrata for my games.

[glitterboy2098]

no comments on the USS Freedom?

[Janus]

I am all about the USS Freedom also. I like the detail that was provided. It would definatley fit in with the Lt. Col.'s forces.

[glitterboy2098]

Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid.

Heros Dreadnought. By the way, I SCANNED the material, but didn't read it too closely YET. I'm gonna copy and paste it to a doc I've got just for that sort of thing. I did like what I've seen "from the hip", though.

If you want, I can set up the "notable Units" and Command Staff if you like.

if it wasn't for my deciding to make it virtually self sufficent (would just need to stop in for a resource replacement every 5 YEARS or so, [grows its own food, in hydroponics bays, so minimal soil issues, salvages scrap metal after battles for raw materials for the machine shops, ect.) it would be even scarier.


the landing ship could carry over 40,000 mecha (thats FORTY THOUSAND).

switching over to fully human mecha would result in almost 50,000 (FIFTY THOUSAND) VT's and Destriods, with about a half million crew and troops. course, it would run out of food and spare parts fast.



needless to say, that would be unstoppable.

[Janus]

anus"]I have always felt that just because something does MD does not mean that the character should die. In robotech there are many ways to lose a hand leg arm without damage to the torso. A little common sense can go a long way.

It always does.

IRL, there's QUITE A FEW MDC-capable weapons that don't "always" kill out right, including the GAU-8A Avenger (Can kill tanks, but MIGHT NOT always kill PEOPLE), .50 Cal. Machine gun (still in use after 70 years), and a WIDE variety of nuclear weapons (though, in these cases, death, perhaps, would be preferable). In simple terms, "Wholly ****, that was clo-". (Saving Private Ryan, landing scene.)

SHock not with standing I think losing a hand from a shot from an MD weapon that somehow only hit the hand should not kill the PC outright. LIke for example with the psysword severe arm it is an MD weapon not only did you disarm but you killed him. when it comes to PC's I like the idea of there being someway out of killing them outright. I like there being being danger but come on people lose arms in tractor accidents which is more stressful than a laser burnig it off and they crawl to the nearest hospital from the back 40. Oh wait I think I missed what you were saying. Oh well extract foot from mouth. You may get back to your regularly scheduled posting.

[glitterboy2098]

this time around, the changes were less major.


and i have a TON of sci-fi referances in there as "In-jokes", but you'd have to be a true fan-boy to get them allthe first read through.

[Jefffar]

Okay, Curiosity Peaked.

Super Agressor?
Super Guardian?

[Jefffar]

Pretty small unit for an organic heavy artillery force.