WBs 33 & 34, Northern Gun, no Jet fighters?

[AceTW]

The Coalition has something like 6 types of jet fighters. 1 in Mercenaries, 1 in War Campaign, and 4 in the Navy source book.

Iron Heart Armaments has a Fighter and a Bomber.

Triax1 and 2/Germany has 4.

The Sovietski has 1 design.

Even the upcoming Titan Robotics book has a pair of combat aircraft.

But I was somewhat surprised that one of the highest tech places doesn't have any. The best they have is the classic Sky King skycycle.

Did I miss anything?

I guess I'm OK modifying the NG-HC1000 Dragonfly to be faster and it could definitely fit the bill since its roll is already covered by the Sky King for a hovering "helicopter" type craft.

What are your thoughts?

[Grazzik]

So... why would they need them? Keep in mind that the Coalition, NGR, Sovietski, etc. are all in the business of war and use war machines. NG is in the business of trade and sells war machines.

From a product line perspective, perhaps they see no profit in competing with other suppliers of this type of armament. Too much competition, no profit, no product. Simple.

Arguably, from a resource perspective, fewer resources are required to build one Red Hawk than to build a fighter jet.

From a military perspective, perhaps there is no use case for them. As a trade nation, there is no imperative to project power beyond their borders or trade routes. Regional air patrols could be done using SDC spotter planes. Sorties could then be run against threats by flying Power Armor squadrons (doubles as great marketing for their products). Given their cozy relationship to the Coalition (the main source of a high speed aerial attack), there is almost no threat from a bogey traveling faster than Mach 1 that couldn't be taken down with surface to air missiles. "Cost discipline over national pride" says the trade nation.

From a transport perspective, NG may simply have a cultural bias for cargo haulage. Hence the hovertrains instead of cargo planes. Their distribution network is about coverage in a fractured land where product has to be delivered to dozens or hundreds of client communities that might not even be considered a city today, not transcontinental distance hauling to major metros thousands of miles away. So when it comes to protecting those transports, have Power Armor ride on the transport wherever they go for deployment against threats, rather than setting up expensive airbases beyond NG borders to support fighters. Much cheaper. It also means no need to construct airfields to launch fighters and an aircraft carrier in the Great Lakes is laughable beyond for training, as they did in WW2.

So, again, why bother in the context of Rifts Earth's Michigan region?

[ShadowLogan]

Naruni and GAW also produce that type of vehicle. IIRC there are references in Japan to having them (nothing detailed, so this might be a case of "they have them we just haven't detailed them yet"). Arkhons and Naut'll both have at least one type. The Kittani don't per say (they've got a few flying robots for this, and those Pods in WB21).

As to why NG doesn't produce them this is likely for several reasons (in no particular order):
1. They lack the personnel to design aircraft of this type (either in terms of raw skills, or available numbers as these people might also be drawn into other flying programs)
2. Market Demand in NA (their primary market) is not sufficient for them to devote resources to this. Aside from the CS (who do things in house for the most part), who else has a need that could justify the required investment by NG?
3. Cost Effectiveness. The books put the typical cost of a jet fighter at 50million or more (GAW and Ironheart Pre-Rifts designs are cheaper), Power Armor (even flying Power Armor) is typically less than 10million. Now Jet Fighter will have more capabilities (bigger weapons and faster flying speeds, range isn't a factor when everything is nuclear powered), but some of those capabilities might be perceived as unnecessary for most clients making the high cost harder to justify. Throw in things like maintenance costs and support facilities and skill requirements.
4. Rifts Warfare "doctrine" might be considered to have rendered them "obsolete". Conventional Artillery is considered "obsolete" in Rifts due to the existence of FCBs, PA, and mini-missiles (MercOps). Flying Power Armor might render some real-world aerial platforms redundant. Then there is how effective a fighter jet could be in an air-air matchup with a CoM/SN flying menace.
5. Development time. Pure New Aircraft Designs take years to create and test. And the CS really didn't get them until Mercenaries, and Ironheart Industries didn't so much design new hardware as produce pre-Rifts designs. So, NG could still be years behind fielding their "first" design that would be ready for production, and that is presuming there is enough Market Demand that they would go down this avenue.
6. You also have the various "Flying Wing" Light-PA Units first introduced in WB10 ("Icarus") that Naruni (DB8) and the CS (WB13) also use that could stand-in for a fighter jet.

[Ace, TW]

The main reason I would like to see a jet for the NG is that I have always seen them as the direct competitor to the technical superiority of the Coalition States.

That and they seem pretty competent and with things like the sky king and dragonfly they most definitely could have a conventional fixed wing combat unit.

Plus, I want to play a fighter pilot who is not Coalition.

The more I consider the Dragonfly the more it reminds me of a F4 Phantom or a Su-25 frog foot.

It just seems like it should be faster than the Sky King which is an open cockpit hover jet with no wings.

[Mack]

Keep in mind that the CS is bit touchy when it comes to enemy aircraft, so it could be a sound business decision for NG to avoid a conflict with the CS.

[Library Ogre]

Keep in mind that the CS is bit touchy when it comes to enemy aircraft, so it could be a sound business decision for NG to avoid a conflict with the CS.

Easier to maintain air superiority when no one else is in the air.

[Mack]

Keep in mind that the CS is bit touchy when it comes to enemy aircraft, so it could be a sound business decision for NG to avoid a conflict with the CS.

Easier to maintain air superiority when no one else is in the air.

Why shoot them out of the sky when you can just stop them from being built?

[Grazzik]

The main reason I would like to see a jet for the NG is that I have always seen them as the direct competitor to the technical superiority of the Coalition States.

That and they seem pretty competent and with things like the sky king and dragonfly they most definitely could have a conventional fixed wing combat unit.

Plus, I want to play a fighter pilot who is not Coalition.

The more I consider the Dragonfly the more it reminds me of a F4 Phantom or a Su-25 frog foot.

It just seems like it should be faster than an open cockpit hover jet with no wings.

So, if the intent is to...

1. Play a fighter pilot
2. Fly a fixed wing aircraft
3. Play a non-CS character
4. Base the character in a community that is in technical competition with the CS

Assuming...
1. The character is human
2. The community is in North America
3. The community has a need to project power beyond its borders
4. The community has access to adequate talent/resources to build or purchase fighters

Then there are a few options, subject to GM approval...
1. Republicans based on the East Coast away from CS air dominance. Military doctrine could be heavily influenced by Pre-Rifts concepts, thereby keeping the use of fixed wing alive. Would have a need to project as far as Atlantis. Access to resources via infiltrated ARCHIE factories or simply procurement from GAW or other suppliers. Could even be a Republican cell unknowingly supplied by ARCHIE via Titan or Shemarrians as a covert war against Atlantis or just to test new designs. Or turn it around with Kitanni secretly supplying unwitting Republicans to fight roaming Mechanoids loose on the East Coast.
2. GAW has the technical specs for Pre-Rifts aircraft (MercOps) and could be supplying any number of independent kingdoms in the South East with planes and contractor pilots, where air superiority would factor in more than ground mobility due to the type of terrain.
3. Tundra Rangers could find a cache of NEMA aircraft in northern Alberta or Saskatoon that had been used for northern air defense. Would be effective against demon hordes from Calgary, as well as against Xiticix expansion from the south.
4. MercTown has a number of companies that could field fighters, Air Superiority Inc. comes to mind. Naruni supplied mercs is another option and will always lead to sorties involving nearby CS pilots, as you try to leave or return to MercTown airspace.
5. If direct combat with CS pilots is what you are looking for, consider FoM pilots. There is nothing saying that everyone in FoM is a mage... so give larger kingdoms or cities near FoM's western border a conventional, TW, and/or magical-enhanced air force. Aircraft could be rifted in from other worlds/dimensions, like aircraft from the HU dimension that are then MDC reinforced. With the fall of Tolkeen, this is the most likely challenge to CS air dominance in the region (depending on whether you consider FQ independent or still a part of the CS). The internal dynamics of FoM would also keep things interesting.
6. To the south, Los Alamos has the resources to have a wing of aircraft (either rediscovered/stolen Pre-Rifts designs or purchased from Naruni or others) for targets south of the Rio Grande, perhaps to protect valuable oil/gas fields in and around the gulf. Though the amount of silver ammo to keep one fighter effective in anti-vamp sorties would get pretty pricey fast! Wood ammo would be a better choice. Substitute Arzno for Los Alamos if you don't want a Naruni influence or prefer to focus more on anti-vamp missions.

All in all, IMO, NG would be an odd choice for a fixed wing air force due to regional politics, available technology, focus on trade, and the fact it is a small geographic area encircled by a variety of competing forces (CS, FoM, Lazlo, Xiticix, etc.).

[Library Ogre]

Keep in mind that the CS is bit touchy when it comes to enemy aircraft, so it could be a sound business decision for NG to avoid a conflict with the CS.

Easier to maintain air superiority when no one else is in the air.

Why shoot them out of the sky when you can just stop them from being built?

"A man can't fly, he can't fight." - Lt. General Terry Silver, 3rd Coalition Air Wing ("The Flying Cobras")

[glitterboy2098]

could be they produce large aircraft of several types, but they've just never been detailed so far. could be the demand is low enough compared to ground vehicles, hovercraft, jetbikes, powerarmors, and robots that production of larger craft is limited and a "on request" thing rather than something they keep in stock.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Having looked through Northern Gun 1 and 2, and finding how virtually everything comes with jet packs, jet pack options, and jet-boosts, I'm convinced the reason they don't sell combat jets is they don't want to obsolete their primary line.

After all, combat hovercycles become obsolete overnight if fighter jets, which are several times faster and can easially target and destroy the unprotected hovercycle pilots and harvest lightly armored overpack troops, which would be bad for business.

[jaymz]

The only reason to have aircraft is for interception.

Air combat does not happen at supersonic speeds....

Not only that, as already pointed out: the CS does NOT take kindly to combat aircraft of any type not their own and facilities/maintenance issues.

Not to mention production. If you can produce several high speed flying PA/combat craft like the sky king, it make zero sense to produce jet fighters.

Additionally, no one wants to attack NG as it's too integral to the continental economy as well as the biggest supplier of military hardware. They're not in competition with THE CS in that regard.

Frankly the CS or anyone fielding them in large numbers doesn't make sense but then again palladium and most their authors never demonstrated an actual understanding of tactical or military requirements or need. They treat it like an 70s or 80s action movie so....

[ShadowLogan]

could be they produce large aircraft of several types, but they've just never been detailed so far. could be the demand is low enough compared to ground vehicles, hovercraft, jetbikes, powerarmors, and robots that production of larger craft is limited and a "on request" thing rather than something they keep in stock.

It could also be that the UP wasn't home to any Jet Fighter production lines at the time of the GC and so NG didn't inherit anything and would have to start from scratch. And we have to remember it isn't just the frame they'd have to produce, but all the avionics (which could be reused from 'bots & PA given PB's C&P attitude in this realm) and engine parts for a suitably powerful enough engine for a multi-ton fixed-wing supersonic combat aircraft or flying robot (AFAIK they don't produce anything like this).

Then there are a few options, subject to GM approval...

I'd add (also subject to where on the timeline they are playing):
-the Lazlos (this might be in part why the CS is kept at bay, unlike Tolkeen)
-Tolkeen (pre-SoT, IIRC Rifter #5 has a TW Air Force for them based on WWII designs)
-Free Quebec. While WB22 pg53 doesn't grant them any CS designs for the Army, they do acknowledge they have a limited selection of combat aircraft and cargo/transport aircraft that they've imported but don't detail any further. On pg125 when discussing the FQ Navy they might have CS Navy Jet Fighters in their inventory ("virtually every vessel, power armor and piece of equipment described in the pages of Rifts Sourcebook 4: Coalition Navy is available to Free Quebec").
-Colorado Baronies out in the West might also consider it
-there are a few small players in the central region that might also have an "Air Force" (Kingsdale as an example)
-Juicer Army (from WB10), this might fall under the heading of Mercenaries, but don't they have a Pilot-Type Juicer?
-Old Bones (near FQ) or the Pirate Port Kingdom(s) in the Great Lakes (SB4, WB20) might also use Fighter Jets. Old Bones seems a likely candidate given its secret ties to FQ, the Pirate Port Kingdoms seem less likely.
-New Navy (perhaps they are establishing a new port/base in NA out in the open?)
-Triax (as part of a sales demonstration?)

The more I consider the Dragonfly the more it reminds me of a F4 Phantom or a Su-25 frog foot

Sorry I don't see it as an F-4 stand-in, and it certainly isn't in the A-10/Su-25 category given its overall performance (its slower and much more limited in altitude) which leaves it in the AH-64/AH-1 or the Ka-50/2.

Not to mention production. If you can produce several high speed flying PA/combat craft like the sky king, it make zero sense to produce jet fighters.

Actually, it might on several fronts:
1. Speed, a supersonic Jet Fighter will outclass just about any flying PA or the Skyking-like vehicle. That would make it ideal for interception duties or to get to a trouble spot quickly.
2. Payload. Neither vehicle category you are considering can carry as much ordnance as a Fighter Jet, and not to mention the Fighter Jet could carry weapons (missiles) which out range what the Flying PA can carry.
3. They might be a better use of limited manpower, with the right equipment (1 guy in an A-10 is more dangerous than 2-guys in an AH-64)
4. Theoretically they can also use their superior altitude capabilities to their advantage in various mission profiles allowing them to engage targets with near impunity (SAMs being the only real counter I would think).

With that said I do agree that the existence of Fighter Jets in the Rifts setting isn't really called for. The CS Fighter Jets don't really have anyone to "intercept" AFAIK, nor did the Ironheart Grey Eagle. The CS Navy might, it really depends on what they encounter at sea (New Navy and Naut'yll both have Fighter Jets). The same goes for Triax I suppose though it really depends on how effective their Fighter Jets are against the flying Gargoyles.

[jaymz]

Fighter jets are like using a sledge hammer as a fly swatter.

I already mentioned interception. Beyond that even now air-to-air combat does not generally occur at supersonic speeds. Additionally Ordnance load goes back to sledgehammer to swat a fly. Aside from only the biggest merc companies and few nations no one uses them. Why? Anything you'll intercept will be detected long before they'll ever get to you since unless it's air elemental it's fky a few dozen miles per hour at most if not a PA or it'll be too late by the time they detected since in either case they can fly noe making it problematic to Intercept with traditional aircraft to begin with.

And don't get me started on the cs using f-14s and gaw selling planes that are old even by today's standards.

[Grazzik]

And don't get me started on the cs using f-14s and gaw selling planes that are old even by today's standards.

Two words - "Rifts RECON"

[ShadowLogan]

I already mentioned interception. Beyond that even now air-to-air combat does not generally occur at supersonic speeds. Additionally Ordnance load goes back to sledgehammer to swat a fly. Aside from only the biggest merc companies and few nations no one uses them. Why? Anything you'll intercept will be detected long before they'll ever get to you since unless it's air elemental it's fky a few dozen miles per hour at most if not a PA or it'll be too late by the time they detected since in either case they can fly noe making it problematic to Intercept with traditional aircraft to begin with.

I agree that air-air combat isn't going to be occurring at supersonic speeds, however since the nuclear-powered jet fighters aren't going to be using afterburners to achieve supersonic flight, that means they have a much wider subsonic flight speed range than flying power armor or skycycle-type, something that could give them an edge in air-air combat. Given the Energy Maneuverability Theory of Air-Air combat (which has influenced designs like the F-15 and F-16) has a simple formula that involves using speed as a multiplier against the other variables (three other variables setup to give a ratio, only 1 of which we have a RAW value for) ... if we assume that ratio for the other part of the equation holds steady for Jet Fighters and Jetbikes and flying powerarmor (since we don't have official numbers to plug-in), then the faster object is going to have an advantage over the slower one.

I agree there isn't much of a need for them to engage flying creatures who do fly slow (10s of kph usually), their role is going to come when it comes to engaging other technological fliers who can go much faster (a SAMAS-type can do ~500kph at top speed, a CS Skycycle ~800kph a supersonic jet fighter will be doing over 1000kph). Those tech fliers are also going to have ranged weapons, and it is probably safe to assume most people would prefer to engage a ranged target outside of their target's effective weapons range (ie I can shoot you, but you can't shoot me). And if you have superior speed and can dictate engagement ranges, you could theoretically use these two edge factors to control the engagement so that you could theoretically never take damage* and don't have to spend credits on repair (just replacement missiles) unlike the other guy (assuming they survived).

What really doesn't have a place on the battlefield on Rifts Earth is the Attack Helicopter given its mission has been taken over by the flying power armor and jetbikes. The Jet Fighter still has roles it can play that flying power armor and jetbikes aren't able to (air-ground bombing, high speed allows faster response times, high altitude recon).

Though I do have to admit I have to wonder (at times) if the CS and Triax have fighter jets not to handle flying pa and jetbikes or flying critters but some other power block that has yet to be mentioned because it is in the skies (operating only at altitudes above 3,000m but not "space")? Then again maybe it's due to Atlantis or some other dimensional invader(s) arriving with fighter support (ex. the Naut'yll) occasionally that require another fighter to engage them in a cost-effective manner.

*

Spoiler:

Consider this scenario using 1E RAW Robotech VF-1 and the VF-2 (Logan) in a straight up aerial gunfight (no missiles). In 1E the Logan has superior speed to the VF-1 (Mach 4.6 vs Mach 4) and superior reach via its nose gun (2400m vs 1200m), in theory the Logan pilot could use the extra 1,200m of range from its nose gun coupled with its superior speed to never enter range of the VF-1's guns (both the GU-11 and Jet Lasers have a range of 1,200m, the Head Lasers 1/2 that) and could shred it.

The 1E Alpha wouldn't do much better in gunfight against the Logan either, the Beta is at a range disadvantage but not necessarily a speed (if it can use its higher ballistic flight speed to counter the higher speed of the Logan even temporarily, if it can't). The AJAX is at a speed disadvantage, but not a range.

Of course, the VF-1 and Alpha could swap their standard gunpods for the VHT gunpod to shrink that disparity, as they would now have a gun system with 50% better range than their normal gunpods, but that means the Logan just has a smaller window to work within.

A Rifts scenario might be more appropriate so let's consider the Flying Titan Power Armor carrying SRMs in a dogfight with a CS (og) SAMAS. The CS SAMAS would be at a range and speed disadvantage (and even its altitude ceiling using RMB version, though it gets a boost in RUE/WB11 but that wouldn't be enough to negate the range advantage) that the FT could elect to runaway if the SRMS where not successful in taking down the SAMAS rather than close to gunrange (where the SAMAS railgun has superior damage to the FT's lasers).