Punishment for theft.

[Blue_Lion]

So a new PC in campaign stole the signature vehicle of a established group of recuring NPCs the Dyssfunctionals. He gets caught with it in Kingsdale. Then giving the chance to hire a lawyer(and recomendation to do so from other PC) he refused and is defending him self against Johnny Lawspeaker(a former HU criminal defense lawyer with 98% acquittal rate for super villains). I am trying to come up with a realistic punishment that will not cost him his charter, he already lost one to a puke grenade.(Lets face it he is up against some one that can convince a group of vampires to run out naked into broad daylight so has 0 chance of success with his MA being his dump stat for his low roll.)

[guardiandashi]

So a new PC in campaign stole the signature vehicle of a established group of recuring NPCs the Dyssfunctionals. He gets caught with it in Kingsdale. Then giving the chance to hire a lawyer(and recomendation to do so from other PC) he refused and is defending him self against Johnny Lawspeaker(a former HU criminal defense lawyer with 98% acquittal rate for super villains). I am trying to come up with a realistic punishment that will not cost him his charter, he already lost one to a puke grenade.(Lets face it he is up against some one that can convince a group of vampires to run out naked into broad daylight so has 0 chance of success with his MA being his dump stat for his low roll.)

It depends do you want to be realistic, or "funny"
realistic have him role play his defence (with bonus points for staying in character) especially if display defence factors in the characters intelligence and puts up a good argument (even if it's not the most polished argument)

For funny use the futurama "technically correct " trial episode as inspiration

[Axelmania]

Cut a T into his face, scars can cause interactive problems without crippling you.

Also, temporary slavery. Indentured servitude to the one you stole from.

[IGNG]

Return the stolen vehicle + damages (damage to the vehicle, lost wages incurred, etc.) + Punitive damages. Probably 30-130% of the vehicles cost depending on how rich the party is. Basically just bankrupt your party and then let them deal with punishing him

[boring7]

Realistic? Something that costs him his character. Rifts is all kinds of Frontier Justice and Frontier Justice is hangin', hard labor, and hand-removal. Even WITHOUT the dark and grim grimdark of Rifts you're looking at imprisonment for a sentence that is too long for a group to stick around.

Assuming he doesn't just get handed over to the group he stole from and sold/murdered.

So...slightly-metagamey-but-keeps-things-moving? The D&D standard is the Geas. You're given a hard, dangerous job with no promise of pay, and if you succeed at this murderhobo job your debt is wiped away. Kingsdale has magic, technology, and some leading-quality augmentation clinics. A cranial bomb, geas spell, AND tracking implant are all rather easy. After that it's just a plot hook with the reward of "your stupid, stupid character doesn't die."

[Mack]

So a new PC in campaign stole the signature vehicle of a established group of recuring NPCs the Dyssfunctionals. He gets caught with it in Kingsdale. Then giving the chance to hire a lawyer(and recomendation to do so from other PC) he refused and is defending him self against Johnny Lawspeaker(a former HU criminal defense lawyer with 98% acquittal rate for super villains). I am trying to come up with a realistic punishment that will not cost him his charter, he already lost one to a puke grenade.(Lets face it he is up against some one that can convince a group of vampires to run out naked into broad daylight so has 0 chance of success with his MA being his dump stat for his low roll.)

As an aside, it sounds like your group needs to have a word with him. It sounds like the player (not the character) continually wants to do his own thing and doesn't play well with others.

He ignored the team's advice to remove his helmet.
He stole a vehicle and got caught. (I'm assuming the rest of the team wasn't involved.)
He ignored the team's advice to get a lawyer.

I'm willing to bet that he'll complain about whatever punishment the character receives.

Does this player really want to be part of the group?

[Blue_Lion]

So a new PC in campaign stole the signature vehicle of a established group of recuring NPCs the Dyssfunctionals. He gets caught with it in Kingsdale. Then giving the chance to hire a lawyer(and recomendation to do so from other PC) he refused and is defending him self against Johnny Lawspeaker(a former HU criminal defense lawyer with 98% acquittal rate for super villains). I am trying to come up with a realistic punishment that will not cost him his charter, he already lost one to a puke grenade.(Lets face it he is up against some one that can convince a group of vampires to run out naked into broad daylight so has 0 chance of success with his MA being his dump stat for his low roll.)

As an aside, it sounds like your group needs to have a word with him. It sounds like the player (not the character) continually wants to do his own thing and doesn't play well with others.

He ignored the team's advice to remove his helmet.
He stole a vehicle and got caught. (I'm assuming the rest of the team wasn't involved.)
He ignored the team's advice to get a lawyer.

I'm willing to bet that he'll complain about whatever punishment the character receives.

Does this player really want to be part of the group?

When they found out he was going to steal the vehicle they told him not to do it. They warned him it was not worth the hassle. He snuck off and did it any way they also told him that he needs to get rid of the vehicle he kept it.

He has displayed a pastern of doing things the group does not approve of. Such as almost drowning a child that was begging for food.

[Blue_Lion]

So a new PC in campaign stole the signature vehicle of a established group of recuring NPCs the Dyssfunctionals. He gets caught with it in Kingsdale. Then giving the chance to hire a lawyer(and recomendation to do so from other PC) he refused and is defending him self against Johnny Lawspeaker(a former HU criminal defense lawyer with 98% acquittal rate for super villains). I am trying to come up with a realistic punishment that will not cost him his charter, he already lost one to a puke grenade.(Lets face it he is up against some one that can convince a group of vampires to run out naked into broad daylight so has 0 chance of success with his MA being his dump stat for his low roll.)

It depends do you want to be realistic, or "funny"
realistic have him role play his defence (with bonus points for staying in character) especially if display defence factors in the characters intelligence and puts up a good argument (even if it's not the most polished argument)

For funny use the futurama "technically correct " trial episode as inspiration

His charter has no knowledge of law or back ground with law, he is up against some one that can convince a jury that a super villain is not guilty and convince a vampire to run naked in to the sun. A complete noob vs a professional lawyer is suicide when it is a normal lawyer. He was caught red handed driving a stolen vehicle, that is one of a kind and well known almost famous in the area. He failed to come up with an excuse when questioned by the guards, just said they where wrong and it was his vehicle, the vehicle has the Dyssfunctionals logo on the side. (Realistically no matter how good he think his augment is he will loose.)

[Mack]

Blue, it sounds like this player's goal is to disrupt your game. Not participate in it.

[HWalsh]

His charter has no knowledge of law or back ground with law, he is up against some one that can convince a jury that a super villain is not guilty and convince a vampire to run naked in to the sun. A complete noob vs a professional lawyer is suicide when it is a normal lawyer. He was caught red handed driving a stolen vehicle, that is one of a kind and well known almost famous in the area. He failed to come up with an excuse when questioned by the guards, just said they where wrong and it was his vehicle, the vehicle has the Dyssfunctionals logo on the side. (Realistically no matter how good he think his augment is he will loose.)

So, you set him up for failure with zero chance of success again?

Not saying that he doesn't deserve something but...

Since you have made two posts on this guy:
1. You hit him with a vomit grenade that is, save or be humiliated, potentially exposed to instant kill, or instant kill.
2. You put him up against a a defense lawyer, who used to represent and get supervillains off that he can't possibly beat.

So yeah. From my perspective... You are in the wrong.

However...

He's also disrupting your game. You obviously don't like him, he doesn't like your style, so it is time to cut him free. It is a GM/Player personality conflict.

[Mack]

I wasn't going to mention it, but since HWalsh brought it up, the prosecutor is definitely on the outlandish end of the scale.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This is Rifts. Vehicles cost millions of dollars and often come with military grade weaponry. He stole it from a group with the honorable moniker of the Dyssfunctionals.

I understand not wanting to off a character but ... shoulda just gunned the guy down when caught. or totured him maimed him and let him live as a lesson. Rifts isn't a forgiving place and merc groups called "the Dyssfunctionals" Don't strike me, by title alone, as the warm fuzzy cuddly type. takingthat vehicle could have resulted in loss of life (Again they tend to cost millions, be MDC and have MD weapons). It's going to be a stretch to let him live.

[HWalsh]

I wasn't going to mention it, but since HWalsh brought it up, the prosecutor is definitely on the outlandish end of the scale.

Here is the thing...

They probably don't *have* lawyers in Rifts. Even if they did, this *lawyer* would get killed. Why? He'd try to resort to his "legalese" BS that worked in the HU world. In frontier society none of that crap would fly.

Example:
Lawyer: "Objection! The murder weapon was found without the police having a warrant to search the premises!"

Frontier Judge: "They found the murder weapon. It doesn't matter how."

Lawyer: "B-but! Law! They can't just!"

Frontier Judge: "Sure they can. Boy are you trying to get a murderer off?"

Lawyer: "I'm trying to def-"

Frontier Judge: "Guilty. Kill the lawyer too on the grounds of trying to obstruct justice."

[Pepsi Jedi]

I suppose you could stage an old fashioned jailbreak. Get the guy out of Kingsdale. Get out. Change your name (It's not like there's birth certificates) change your armor, your look, your weapons, any gimmic items or traits and start new, never ever going back to Kingsdale.

That'd let the character live and all. And when ever they get jerky, a bounty hunter could show up, having tracked them down.

[J_cobbers]

Make the punishment fit the crime. Since Kingsdale is a more civilized kingdom, death is probably off the table, rather than if the mercs had caught him out in the wastelands. Fees, court costs, forfeitures and penalties (hit that bank account hard) plus confinement with labor: while on an MDC Ankle monitor perform menial community service, having to clean vehicles and equipment of the Dyssfunctionals for a month or two, clean out the stables of any number of gross dbee pack animals and so on get creative. Maybe some public humiliation, you know subject him to a puke grenade in full environmental armor while on the public square and see how long he takes to remove his helmet? Basically make it not fun for him to play his characters in ways that are stupid. Maybe he'll never learn, but the rest of your group should get some good laughs, and either he'll quit your game, or start to listen to the advice of his fellow players and their characters.

[Blue_Lion]

I wasn't going to mention it, but since HWalsh brought it up, the prosecutor is definitely on the outlandish end of the scale.

Here is the thing...

They probably don't *have* lawyers in Rifts. Even if they did, this *lawyer* would get killed. Why? He'd try to resort to his "legalese" BS that worked in the HU world. In frontier society none of that crap would fly.

Example:
Lawyer: "Objection! The murder weapon was found without the police having a warrant to search the premises!"

Frontier Judge: "They found the murder weapon. It doesn't matter how."

Lawyer: "B-but! Law! They can't just!"

Frontier Judge: "Sure they can. Boy are you trying to get a murderer off?"

Lawyer: "I'm trying to def-"

Frontier Judge: "Guilty. Kill the lawyer too on the grounds of trying to obstruct justice."

Think about it, a 98% acquittal for super villains in HU, talked a group of vampires to run naked into the sunlight certain death. You really think it is just legal ease.

He is over the top part of the reason the group succeeds so much.

Is this me placing him in a no win situation or just having what would happen if he does stupid things happen.

-He stole from an established group of NPCs, that have a really good lawyer(something rare in rifts). He took a marked vehicle into one of the cities that group of heroes are known to operate from.(The other players told him that they frequent the city and he should not take his stolen vehicle there.) He ignored advice from his team not to do it. When confronted by the guards he did not come up with any excuse or reasonable cover story. "Why yes that vehicle is mine, I saw it and just had to have it." (that is what he told the guard when they asked him if he knew who owned the vehicle he just stepped out of.)

The vehicle he stole has a long range anti-theft tracking device on it as part of its stats. The group he stole from has long range communication capabilities. Do to the difference in speed they could not catch up to him out in the wilderness. They could however track the vehicle and contact cities that he might head to that it was stolen and possibly on its way there.

Kingsdale is more civilized and I see them reasonably waiting for his accusers to show up before proceeding with a trial. It is a city with more formalized legal system not a frontier town or mob justice. As a magical city they may use words of truth to question him during the trial. (So if he is guilty he may be forced to admit it.)

[Blue_Lion]

Make the punishment fit the crime. Since Kingsdale is a more civilized kingdom, death is probably off the table, rather than if the mercs had caught him out in the wastelands. Fees, court costs, forfeitures and penalties (hit that bank account hard) plus confinement with labor: while on an MDC Ankle monitor perform menial community service, having to clean vehicles and equipment of the Dyssfunctionals for a month or two, clean out the stables of any number of gross dbee pack animals and so on get creative. Maybe some public humiliation, you know subject him to a puke grenade in full environmental armor while on the public square and see how long he takes to remove his helmet? Basically make it not fun for him to play his characters in ways that are stupid. Maybe he'll never learn, but the rest of your group should get some good laughs, and either he'll quit your game, or start to listen to the advice of his fellow players and their characters.

Puke grenades are banned/illegal in Lazlo, Kingsdale and merc town. Why would they use something illegal in their own city?
He lacks any real assets to be seized that are not needed for him to adventure. His share of the last haul after repairs was only 7K. His previous charter died 2 sessions ago so he has not built up any assets to take.

Confinement/prison effectively removes him from the adventure group. The rest of the group is not going to sit around for it, so unless I fill like RPing Huggy and squeezy it would be the same as killing his charter.


The player is in his two month trail period. After two months I will ask the group if they want him to stick around. (I really do not want to keep removing his charters from the game, but I am not going to give him free passes.)

[Library Ogre]

So, this reminds me of a case in early my gaming career. One of my friends was playing a bard named "Maxwell D. Mented", and it went about as well as you can expect. He was annoying, and more or less just hung around because of the PC Aura. Then, one day, he died. We had enough money and contacts to get him raised, but we looked around the table and said "Wait, why would we do this? We HATE the guy. To be honest, I'm surprised one of us didn't kill him."

And, so, he remained dead. (To my friend's credit, he admitted to being surprised that resurrection was even on the table for that character. Even briefly.)

[IGNG]

Turn him into a rabbit or something until a task is preformed

[Pepsi Jedi]

What's he going to do as a rabbit? Eat an enemy's carrots??

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I wasn't going to mention it, but since HWalsh brought it up, the prosecutor is definitely on the outlandish end of the scale.

Here is the thing...

They probably don't *have* lawyers in Rifts. Even if they did, this *lawyer* would get killed. Why? He'd try to resort to his "legalese" BS that worked in the HU world. In frontier society none of that crap would fly.

Example:
Lawyer: "Objection! The murder weapon was found without the police having a warrant to search the premises!"

Frontier Judge: "They found the murder weapon. It doesn't matter how."

Lawyer: "B-but! Law! They can't just!"

Frontier Judge: "Sure they can. Boy are you trying to get a murderer off?"

Lawyer: "I'm trying to def-"

Frontier Judge: "Guilty. Kill the lawyer too on the grounds of trying to obstruct justice."

Kingsdale is a civilized city (with a 4000+ man police force), not the frontier.

Was the property actually stolen in Kingsdale's territory, though? If not, Kingsdale has no particular jurisdiction. They might want to not do anything about it just to stay out of it. As long as the revenge from the agrevied party happens outside the city walls, they probably wouldnt care.

[boring7]

Rifts is entirely frontier. Even Kingsdale is violent and brutal...if in an orderly fashion.

Or not, the criminal justice system in rifts is not that deeply delved into. The furthest they go is mentioning in a few places (HoH I think?) that the Coalition does a lot of public executions, but that's just as easily "Renaissance Paris" as "wild west" and its the freaking CS. So presumably there's a lot of wiggle-room in there.

Also, Blue, I think you're a bit too defensive of your GM calls, characters, and related. People make off-hand comments (many of which ultimately agree with you, but go a bit tangential) and you feel the need to argue about it.

Also Also, "Why yes that vehicle is mine, I saw it and just had to have it." is not "failing to come up with a cover story," it is "thinking he is in a different game entirely." He thought he was being the clever, suave, and debonair thief who NO ONE suspects, casually admitting to the theft in a churlish way. SURELY no one would know it wasn't his, because he was one step ahead of everyone else. "I just had to have it" was intentionally ambiguous and since he's the handsome and roguish thief (in his head, nevermind his stats saying the opposite) and was CLEARLY supposed to be mistaken by the clueless mook guard as, "I just bought it," when it was actually, "I just stole it."

He probably has no idea why you're being SO MEAN as to have the merc group be competent and have friendly contact with one of their sometimes-employers. In his mind you're the bad guy for having Kingsdale have access to $@#^ing radio when you SHOULD have just let him randomly steal things with everyone being clueless about security.

If anything the real surprise is that you didn't just hand-wave an anti-theft device that instantly mega-damaged him in the SDCs. It's what I'd probably do. I don't feel any remorse saying, "yeah, the merc group's awesome ride has an anti-theft device so obvious I didn't bother writing it down. This is Rifts Earth, they're as standard as 'it has door locks' or 'there is a ventilation system.'"

But that's just me. I dunno, it's late and I'm wandering rhetorically.

[Blue_Lion]

I wasn't going to mention it, but since HWalsh brought it up, the prosecutor is definitely on the outlandish end of the scale.

Here is the thing...

They probably don't *have* lawyers in Rifts. Even if they did, this *lawyer* would get killed. Why? He'd try to resort to his "legalese" BS that worked in the HU world. In frontier society none of that crap would fly.

Example:
Lawyer: "Objection! The murder weapon was found without the police having a warrant to search the premises!"

Frontier Judge: "They found the murder weapon. It doesn't matter how."

Lawyer: "B-but! Law! They can't just!"

Frontier Judge: "Sure they can. Boy are you trying to get a murderer off?"

Lawyer: "I'm trying to def-"

Frontier Judge: "Guilty. Kill the lawyer too on the grounds of trying to obstruct justice."

Kingsdale is a civilized city (with a 4000+ man police force), not the frontier.

Was the property actually stolen in Kingsdale's territory, though? If not, Kingsdale has no particular jurisdiction. They might want to not do anything about it just to stay out of it. As long as the revenge from the agrevied party happens outside the city walls, they probably wouldnt care.

They have as much jurisdiction as they choose to have. If the crimes victim one of the citizens(and willy was born there) they would likely choose to have jurisdiction.

Also knowingly being in possession of stolen property is a crime.

[Blue_Lion]

Rifts is entirely frontier. Even Kingsdale is violent and brutal...if in an orderly fashion.

Or not, the criminal justice system in rifts is not that deeply delved into. The furthest they go is mentioning in a few places (HoH I think?) that the Coalition does a lot of public executions, but that's just as easily "Renaissance Paris" as "wild west" and its the freaking CS. So presumably there's a lot of wiggle-room in there.

Also, Blue, I think you're a bit too defensive of your GM calls, characters, and related. People make off-hand comments (many of which ultimately agree with you, but go a bit tangential) and you feel the need to argue about it.

Also Also, "Why yes that vehicle is mine, I saw it and just had to have it." is not "failing to come up with a cover story," it is "thinking he is in a different game entirely." He thought he was being the clever, suave, and debonair thief who NO ONE suspects, casually admitting to the theft in a churlish way. SURELY no one would know it wasn't his, because he was one step ahead of everyone else. "I just had to have it" was intentionally ambiguous and since he's the handsome and roguish thief (in his head, nevermind his stats saying the opposite) and was CLEARLY supposed to be mistaken by the clueless mook guard as, "I just bought it," when it was actually, "I just stole it."

He probably has no idea why you're being SO MEAN as to have the merc group be competent and have friendly contact with one of their sometimes-employers. In his mind you're the bad guy for having Kingsdale have access to $@#^ing radio when you SHOULD have just let him randomly steal things with everyone being clueless about security.

If anything the real surprise is that you didn't just hand-wave an anti-theft device that instantly mega-damaged him in the SDCs. It's what I'd probably do. I don't feel any remorse saying, "yeah, the merc group's awesome ride has an anti-theft device so obvious I didn't bother writing it down. This is Rifts Earth, they're as standard as 'it has door locks' or 'there is a ventilation system.'"

But that's just me. I dunno, it's late and I'm wandering rhetorically.

He has a limited time to prove his worth to the party and stay in the group. If he is constantly making new charters it would be counter productive. I am trying to come with a punishment that would fit and not effectively remove his charter from the game.

[IGNG]

What's he going to do as a rabbit? Eat an enemy's carrots??

What's he doing as not a rabbit other than annoying everyone else at the table?

[Blue_Lion]

What's he going to do as a rabbit? Eat an enemy's carrots??

What's he doing as not a rabbit other than annoying everyone else at the table?

Detected a ambush, pushed the mage to cover.
Shot down a volley of missiles that almost killed the Juicer. Captured an intact suit of Samson PA.(replaced the destroyed armor the PA pilot had.)
Found the vampire lair the party was looking for.
Found a safe path threw a mine field.(You really only herd the times he was being stupid.)
Got trolled by Sally the Troll.
Got seduced by a blind warrior woman that led to the party to find and stop a slaver operation.(granted it was because he was almost their next slave.)
Pulled out his Johnson and took a leak on a sploogy slaver mid fight when his energy weapon could not hurt it. (that is right he would not take off his helmet but he dropped his pants.)


He may be annoying but on occasion he has proved useful.-really I am the only one here that knows the full details of the game.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I wasn't going to mention it, but since HWalsh brought it up, the prosecutor is definitely on the outlandish end of the scale.

Here is the thing...

They probably don't *have* lawyers in Rifts. Even if they did, this *lawyer* would get killed. Why? He'd try to resort to his "legalese" BS that worked in the HU world. In frontier society none of that crap would fly.

Example:
Lawyer: "Objection! The murder weapon was found without the police having a warrant to search the premises!"

Frontier Judge: "They found the murder weapon. It doesn't matter how."

Lawyer: "B-but! Law! They can't just!"

Frontier Judge: "Sure they can. Boy are you trying to get a murderer off?"

Lawyer: "I'm trying to def-"

Frontier Judge: "Guilty. Kill the lawyer too on the grounds of trying to obstruct justice."

Kingsdale is a civilized city (with a 4000+ man police force), not the frontier.

Was the property actually stolen in Kingsdale's territory, though? If not, Kingsdale has no particular jurisdiction. They might want to not do anything about it just to stay out of it. As long as the revenge from the agrevied party happens outside the city walls, they probably wouldnt care.

They have as much jurisdiction as they choose to have. If the crimes victim one of the citizens(and willy was born there) they would likely choose to have jurisdiction.

Also knowingly being in possession of stolen property is a crime.

You're both using too much modern-day US law and far too little.

Kingsdale is a civilized place, but if they start randomly arresting people who come to town for 'crimes' that were comitted nowhere near Kingsdale, people will stop coming to Kingsdale. Half the people who come there are bandits and mercs who resell stolen goods.

If it happened in Kingsdale's territory, it behooves them to take the matter into their own hands, as they want to have a reputation as being a safe place for people to live and do commerce, but if the "crime" happened somewhere else entirely, and they start trying to enforce stuff like that - all of a sudden a place like Los Alamo that DOESNT do that is going to be a LOT more appealing to the tens of thousands of bandits and mercs who do business there, and theyll go there instead.

[HWalsh]

Pretty much this Blue...

The crime didn't happen in Kingsdale. Kingsdale doesn't care. They wouldn't get involved in a dispute between a Merc group and a party. They'd not hold a trial or any of that...

It would be:

Kingsdale:
"Possession is 9/10 of the law and this didn't happen here. You guys sort it out but don't cause us any trouble or then it will be our business."

So the Merc group gathers outside of Kingsdale. Waiting for the party to leave so they can deal with them. Thus gives the party a chance to.figure out what they're going to do.

Maybe the PCs trick the Merc group into attacking them in Kingsdale, resulting in Kingsdale stepping in and smashing the Merc group. Maybe the PCs fight their way through. Maybe they come to a settlement.

All are more interesting than, "And their super lawyer beats you in court!"

[Blue_Lion]

Pretty much this Blue...

The crime didn't happen in Kingsdale. Kingsdale doesn't care. They wouldn't get involved in a dispute between a Merc group and a party. They'd not hold a trial or any of that...

It would be:

Kingsdale:
"Possession is 9/10 of the law and this didn't happen here. You guys sort it out but don't cause us any trouble or then it will be our business."

So the Merc group gathers outside of Kingsdale. Waiting for the party to leave so they can deal with them. Thus gives the party a chance to.figure out what they're going to do.

Maybe the PCs trick the Merc group into attacking them in Kingsdale, resulting in Kingsdale stepping in and smashing the Merc group. Maybe the PCs fight their way through. Maybe they come to a settlement.

All are more interesting than, "And their super lawyer beats you in court!"

Is there a book quote that says that is how they act or it just how you think they should act?

A nobody comes into your town with a local heroes stolen vehicle when the hero called ahead and asked you to stop them, and you think they would just ignore it?

Got it you think a player can be free to do all the dumb stuff he wants and no one does anything to stop them.

They way I run may games most major civilization centers work to stop bandits(unless they are privateers) and theft as it affects their ability to trade with their neighbors. There are a few towns and cities stated to be pirate or bandit strong holds those would not be trying to stop them. I do not remember Kingsdale being listed as pro bandit.

[HWalsh]

Pretty much this Blue...

The crime didn't happen in Kingsdale. Kingsdale doesn't care. They wouldn't get involved in a dispute between a Merc group and a party. They'd not hold a trial or any of that...

It would be:

Kingsdale:
"Possession is 9/10 of the law and this didn't happen here. You guys sort it out but don't cause us any trouble or then it will be our business."

So the Merc group gathers outside of Kingsdale. Waiting for the party to leave so they can deal with them. Thus gives the party a chance to.figure out what they're going to do.

Maybe the PCs trick the Merc group into attacking them in Kingsdale, resulting in Kingsdale stepping in and smashing the Merc group. Maybe the PCs fight their way through. Maybe they come to a settlement.

All are more interesting than, "And their super lawyer beats you in court!"

Is there a book quote that says that is how they act or it just how you think they should act?

A nobody comes into your town with a local heroes stolen vehicle when the hero called ahead and asked you to stop them, and you think they would just ignore it?

Got it you think a player can be free to do all the dumb stuff he wants and no one does anything to stop them.

They way I run may games most major civilization centers work to stop bandits(unless they are privateers) and theft as it affects their ability to trade with their neighbors. There are a few towns and cities stated to be pirate or bandit strong holds those would not be trying to stop them. I do not remember Kingsdale being listed as pro bandit.

Now you're going into straw man territory Blue.

"Got it you think a player can be free to do all the dumb stuff he wants and no one does anything to stop them."

I never said that.

I gave alternative possibilities to make a game fun rather than instant "you lose if you do what I don't want" scenarios, which seem to be your MO.

Don't take your helmet off? Death by vomit.

Steal something? Their allies stop you *and* their unbeatable lawyer will show up.

I'm saying that Rifts Earth isn't that cut and dry and that PCs are the stars, not NPCs. As such PCs should at least have a chance to fight back.

Having the Merc group show up to deal with its own problem isn't "nobody does anything to stop them" it is how things would work in a setting like Rifts. That is why Rifts has mercenaries, bounty hunters, and champions in abundance.

[boring7]

Possession of stolen property is canonically a crime. I *literally* was just reading a section of heroes of humanity where it goes into the current looter/war profiteer activities going on in the Minion War.

Short version: Yes, local authorities will absolutely arrest, try, and convict you for crimes committed outside their borders. It's not 100% all property scanned hive-mind law enforcement, but it WILL happen when you're brazen and incompetent.

Super-DA still seems excessive, but the outcome of the trial also seems open-and-shut.

[Blue_Lion]

Possession of stolen property is canonically a crime. I *literally* was just reading a section of heroes of humanity where it goes into the current looter/war profiteer activities going on in the Minion War.

Short version: Yes, local authorities will absolutely arrest, try, and convict you for crimes committed outside their borders. It's not 100% all property scanned hive-mind law enforcement, but it WILL happen when you're brazen and incompetent.

Super-DA still seems excessive, but the outcome of the trial also seems open-and-shut.

Here is the thing, is not a DA he is a criminal defense atterny who will defend any one who pays him. He has a 98% success rate. His only interest in the case is his ride was stolen. The other party members have hired him in the past when they got in trouble. They warned him not to mess with the Dyssfunctionals. (Most the players are convinced the NPC group are gods in disguise do to their exploits that always seam to happen off camera so to speak.)

Hwash the game is full of you are dead if you do not do X. If you do not where MDC armor (or are MDC) you are dead in a MDC figh fight.

Death because you ignore a life threatening event with a easy way to die is just being stupid.(it is not die if you do not do what I want it is die if you do not react to prevent something that can kill you.)
What did he need to do to live, well he can not breath puke so get the puke out of his helmet. (requires removing it.)

If you go to the bottom of a lake and ran out of air in your EBA you would die if you do not go to the surface and get more air. That is not a no win situation that is a easy win, choosing not to take a easy win can not be blamed on the GM.

You miss the part where all this is established and stated out. He targeted a group with a damn good lawyer.

PCs generally have a fighting chance but if you walk up naked and take a dump on a adult dragon with a human vagabond it will kill you easy. This time the PC picked a fight he could not win on his own ignored advise to get help. The previous time he ignored something that if left untreated is fatal.

It is not he messed with some random person he messed with a known group that has abilities and a rep. The group he messed with are the ones I have used when the PCs fail. They have pulled the parties bacon out of the fire several times. (They started off as a joke but are now an unofficial safety net for when the players get in over their head.)

[glitterboy2098]

given the place, and the state of the world, most probably the person convicted would be facing 6+ months of (very) hard labor on something like a chain gang. possibly several years of it, since he didn't even try to hide what he'd done, and your tossing a super-lawyer at him to ensure the charge sticks.

he'd be digging ditches, clearing out latrines, laying roads, etc.. all while watched like a hawk, and fed just enough to keep the people alive and working. lots of backbreaking, mindnumbing menial work.

note though that the trial is probably not going to be the kind we're used to. it would likely be using the Inquisitorial system rather than the Adversarial system we use IRL. under an inquisitorial system the court itself conducts the investigation, with the judge being the one that questions the witnesses, calls for evidence, etc. there is no "prosecution vs defense" as in the adversarial system, just the two sides involved, presenting their evidence, with the judge as the arbitrator. (there is no jury) (if you have ever watched Judge Judy, you've seen this sort of structure at work) since in this case it is the town arbitrating a dispute between two non-citizens, the inquisitorial structure would fit.
note though that in an inquisitorial system, there is no 'defense' or 'prosecution' so that lawyer would not be standing up and giving elaborate speeches.. he'd instead be an advisor to the mercs, letting them know what kind of evidence the Judge needs to see, and the various etiquette and protocol type issues they need to be aware of.

as for why the town grabbed him, well the mercs would likely have sent out word that one of their vehicles was stolen, and since the mercs are regulars to the area, the town grabbed him and let them know. they then (wisely) asked the town to arbitrate the punishment so that it is being done all above board and won't ruin the reputation of either the merc unit or the town.

the advantage of the inquisitorial system here is that since all the two parties can do present evidence, the thief can't try and ******** the court. and the fact that he was found with the stolen vehicle and admitted to stealing it also means that he can't suddenly change his story. it doesn't mean that he is automatically found guilty, it just means the case is not "was there a theft" so much as "was his story about having stolen the vehicle true, or was he lying, and if so how should he be punished"
an inquisitorial system also means he cannot plea-bargin, or try to settle out of court.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Possession of stolen property is canonically a crime. I *literally* was just reading a section of heroes of humanity where it goes into the current looter/war profiteer activities going on in the Minion War.

Short version: Yes, local authorities will absolutely arrest, try, and convict you for crimes committed outside their borders. It's not 100% all property scanned hive-mind law enforcement, but it WILL happen when you're brazen and incompetent.

This seems ludicrous, considering stolen CS armor and weapons made up a HUGE percentage of what is for sale on the open market everywhere not in the CS or NG/MI for literally most of the history of Rifts.

Stolen CS vehicles are available on the open market (Mark Vs), power armor too.

Any city that did something like this would find itself without a working economy in weeks, particularly some place like Kingsdale where half their market is Pecos Bandits.

[boring7]

Possession of stolen property is canonically a crime. I *literally* was just reading a section of heroes of humanity where it goes into the current looter/war profiteer activities going on in the Minion War.

Short version: Yes, local authorities will absolutely arrest, try, and convict you for crimes committed outside their borders. It's not 100% all property scanned hive-mind law enforcement, but it WILL happen when you're brazen and incompetent.

This seems ludicrous, considering stolen CS armor and weapons made up a HUGE percentage of what is for sale on the open market everywhere not in the CS or NG/MI for literally most of the history of Rifts.

Stolen CS vehicles are available on the open market (Mark Vs), power armor too.

Any city that did something like this would find itself without a working economy in weeks, particularly some place like Kingsdale where half their market is Pecos Bandits.

You're thinking too all-or-nothing. CS property is illegal if the CS is around to enforce it or good enough with the local government that they care. Pecos Empire, for example, happily deals in CS weapons, but some town right on the border of Ironheart? Not so much.

Also it varies on whether or not the material is obviously stolen. Loot an e-clip? An e-clip is an e-clip is quite possibly stamped NG and nobody cares. Riding the clearly-labeled ride of a locally-affiliated merc group? You're under arrest.

There's a sliding scale, a blurry line, but what captain PC did was well outside the question range.

[Blue_Lion]

Possession of stolen property is canonically a crime. I *literally* was just reading a section of heroes of humanity where it goes into the current looter/war profiteer activities going on in the Minion War.

Short version: Yes, local authorities will absolutely arrest, try, and convict you for crimes committed outside their borders. It's not 100% all property scanned hive-mind law enforcement, but it WILL happen when you're brazen and incompetent.

This seems ludicrous, considering stolen CS armor and weapons made up a HUGE percentage of what is for sale on the open market everywhere not in the CS or NG/MI for literally most of the history of Rifts.

Stolen CS vehicles are available on the open market (Mark Vs), power armor too.

Any city that did something like this would find itself without a working economy in weeks, particularly some place like Kingsdale where half their market is Pecos Bandits.

You're thinking too all-or-nothing. CS property is illegal if the CS is around to enforce it or good enough with the local government that they care. Pecos Empire, for example, happily deals in CS weapons, but some town right on the border of Ironheart? Not so much.

Also it varies on whether or not the material is obviously stolen. Loot an e-clip? An e-clip is an e-clip is quite possibly stamped NG and nobody cares. Riding the clearly-labeled ride of a locally-affiliated merc group? You're under arrest.

There's a sliding scale, a blurry line, but what captain PC did was well outside the question range.

I not sure I would call them a merc group more like a wondering band of misfits that some how pull off heroic actions. So a rival band of heroes.


I wonder if CS may have sold off some their old gear to help fund the refit or war effort. It is a some what established practice.
Some people with CS gear seam to have been giving a pass on having CS gear (Larson).Nations not friendly with CS would have no issue with CS gear while nations that have no problem with the CS would have issues with stolen CS gear.

Generally as long as the nation is on good terms with the people you stole from or the settlement you commit a crime in they could reasonably take actions if nothing else to maintain good terms.

[Razzinold]

You mentioned a 2 month trial period, is this their first time ever playing an RPG or is it just the first time with your group ?

To me it sounds like the person is a somewhat decent role player, but maybe just not quite as clever as they think to try and pull off the type of character they want to play.

Years ago we had a guy who played with us on a regular basis and every character was a carbon copy of the previous, regardless of the occ he was currently playing.
There were times he came up with some good ideas but he was just immature, gaming wise, and all his characters carried axes and always had at least one minor super power (usually strength).

It became tiresome after awhile but as he got older he finally was able to break that mould. If your player is a long time gamer then like I said above maybe they are trying to play a character that is smarter then they are.

So my advice on an easy fix that doesn't result in death ? Hand-wave a 2 - 5 year hard labour prison sentence, freeze all their skills during that time period, give them the skill physical labour as a result of all their years of toiling and finally give everyone else in the group a bunch of credits and one level to show the adventuring they did while the other player was incarcerated.

Talk to the player one to one and tell them you let them off with a warning. Tell them that this time they didn't die but if they keep doing dumb crap, like say walking out the airlock mid flight without a spacesuit they will die, and it won't be on your hands.

Return all the gear they had before they went to prison, which is only fair, but returning their money or not is up to you (I have no opinion either way on that).

[J_cobbers]

So he's going to loose, that's the forgone conclusion, but you don't want him to be out of the game long term, his gear isn't worth much, but apparently he has some special skills as an adventurer.so here's a couple thoughts on how to handle that:

1) Perhaps you have a creative judge, who decides to offer him that he work off his sentence if he will go on some kind of quest (i.e. build a series of adventures off of the this) in service of Kingsdale, under the supervision of the Dysfunctionals and the PCs, who have to sign over some kind of bond for his work release/quest for one important macguffin or another. Treat this as a new story hook -Hey look it's a mismatch team up, starts tense and with lots of distrust, razzing and hazing of his character but potentially builds into a grudging mutual respect then friendship between the PCs and NPCs). Failure to comply results in forfeiture of the group's bond money, and a bounty on the character's head, and a one way trip to long term imprisonment if he is caught. The PC's become responsible for keeping him on the straight and narrow, the Dysfunctionals get to use the PC's as their mooks for a few adventures all while they learn about each-other. Maybe then you get the big reveal that the Dysfunctionals really are gods, disguised dragons, or powerful aliens in disguise etc.

2) Alternatively, in a Law and Order like session, after losing the initial case, super lawyer man goes away for another case or is too expensive for the city/NPCs to hire a second time, and PC guy wins on appeal because super lawyer is unavailable and some new evidence comes to light: I.E. turns out the Dysfunctionals actually stole the vehicle from some third group (forgot to change the VIN or serial number on a critical part), and there is enough circumstantial evidence to show the PC was actually "returning it to it's rightful owners" in Kingsdale. You'd need to plant some clues for the PC's to be suspicious of the NPC's claims etc. and have them dig up the clues. Maybe your problem child PC hears some rumors while confined in Kingsdale waiting for trial that can point his buddies in the right direction.

[Blue_Lion]

You mentioned a 2 month trial period, is this their first time ever playing an RPG or is it just the first time with your group ?

To me it sounds like the person is a somewhat decent role player, but maybe just not quite as clever as they think to try and pull off the type of character they want to play.

Years ago we had a guy who played with us on a regular basis and every character was a carbon copy of the previous, regardless of the occ he was currently playing.
There were times he came up with some good ideas but he was just immature, gaming wise, and all his characters carried axes and always had at least one minor super power (usually strength).

It became tiresome after awhile but as he got older he finally was able to break that mould. If your player is a long time gamer then like I said above maybe they are trying to play a character that is smarter then they are.

So my advice on an easy fix that doesn't result in death ? Hand-wave a 2 - 5 year hard labour prison sentence, freeze all their skills during that time period, give them the skill physical labour as a result of all their years of toiling and finally give everyone else in the group a bunch of credits and one level to show the adventuring they did while the other player was incarcerated.

Talk to the player one to one and tell them you let them off with a warning. Tell them that this time they didn't die but if they keep doing dumb crap, like say walking out the airlock mid flight without a spacesuit they will die, and it won't be on your hands.

Return all the gear they had before they went to prison, which is only fair, but returning their money or not is up to you (I have no opinion either way on that).

New people to the group, have a two month trial period. Then there is a group vote as to weather or not they can keep playing with the group. A 2-5 year prison sentence would be the same as killing him because he would not be able to go out with the group and the group would not sit around for that time. With a juicer in the party if the trial went really bad and they were imprisoned with him the juicer would die or have to detox.

[Blue_Lion]

So he's going to loose, that's the forgone conclusion, but you don't want him to be out of the game long term, his gear isn't worth much, but apparently he has some special skills as an adventurer.so here's a couple thoughts on how to handle that:

1) Perhaps you have a creative judge, who decides to offer him that he work off his sentence if he will go on some kind of quest (i.e. build a series of adventures off of the this) in service of Kingsdale, under the supervision of the Dysfunctionals and the PCs, who have to sign over some kind of bond for his work release/quest for one important macguffin or another. Treat this as a new story hook -Hey look it's a mismatch team up, starts tense and with lots of distrust, razzing and hazing of his character but potentially builds into a grudging mutual respect then friendship between the PCs and NPCs). Failure to comply results in forfeiture of the group's bond money, and a bounty on the character's head, and a one way trip to long term imprisonment if he is caught. The PC's become responsible for keeping him on the straight and narrow, the Dysfunctionals get to use the PC's as their mooks for a few adventures all while they learn about each-other. Maybe then you get the big reveal that the Dysfunctionals really are gods, disguised dragons, or powerful aliens in disguise etc.

2) Alternatively, in a Law and Order like session, after losing the initial case, super lawyer man goes away for another case or is too expensive for the city/NPCs to hire a second time, and PC guy wins on appeal because super lawyer is unavailable and some new evidence comes to light: I.E. turns out the Dysfunctionals actually stole the vehicle from some third group (forgot to change the VIN or serial number on a critical part), and there is enough circumstantial evidence to show the PC was actually "returning it to it's rightful owners" in Kingsdale. You'd need to plant some clues for the PC's to be suspicious of the NPC's claims etc. and have them dig up the clues. Maybe your problem child PC hears some rumors while confined in Kingsdale waiting for trial that can point his buddies in the right direction.

Think one is closer to what I was looking for.

[taalismn]

So he's going to loose, that's the forgone conclusion, but you don't want him to be out of the game long term, his gear isn't worth much, but apparently he has some special skills as an adventurer.so here's a couple thoughts on how to handle that:

1) Perhaps you have a creative judge, who decides to offer him that he work off his sentence if he will go on some kind of quest (i.e. build a series of adventures off of the this) in service of Kingsdale, under the supervision of the Dysfunctionals and the PCs, who have to sign over some kind of bond for his work release/quest for one important macguffin or another. Treat this as a new story hook -Hey look it's a mismatch team up, starts tense and with lots of distrust, razzing and hazing of his character but potentially builds into a grudging mutual respect then friendship between the PCs and NPCs). Failure to comply results in forfeiture of the group's bond money, and a bounty on the character's head, and a one way trip to long term imprisonment if he is caught. The PC's become responsible for keeping him on the straight and narrow, the Dysfunctionals get to use the PC's as their mooks for a few adventures all while they learn about each-other. Maybe then you get the big reveal that the Dysfunctionals really are gods, disguised dragons, or powerful aliens in disguise etc..

"Besides the explosive collar we locked on you, the limb-snipping ankle bracelet put on you, and the timed nano-explosives we fed you in your steak and potatoes, we're magically binding you to your parole officer who you will initially hate, but will come to love, in a sort of hateful, grudging way, despite the fact that are you entirely different species, and she regards yours as tasty with soy sauce. Your possessions will be docked as a deposit on your monitoring hardware. We will also be holding your teddy bear hostage, with the option of giving it to a needy orphan if you fail to cooperate. Your colleagues will also be paid a small bounty to report any deviations from your parole; they will be fact-checked by mindmelter. If all goes well, you can work off your sentence in, oh eight months, assuming part-time work, sooner if you dedicate full time to it. If not, well, either you will be vaporized or eaten, and the damage deposit for the hardware defaults to us. Have a nice day, sir."

[Razzinold]

You mentioned a 2 month trial period, is this their first time ever playing an RPG or is it just the first time with your group ?

To me it sounds like the person is a somewhat decent role player, but maybe just not quite as clever as they think to try and pull off the type of character they want to play.

Years ago we had a guy who played with us on a regular basis and every character was a carbon copy of the previous, regardless of the occ he was currently playing.
There were times he came up with some good ideas but he was just immature, gaming wise, and all his characters carried axes and always had at least one minor super power (usually strength).

It became tiresome after awhile but as he got older he finally was able to break that mould. If your player is a long time gamer then like I said above maybe they are trying to play a character that is smarter then they are.

So my advice on an easy fix that doesn't result in death ? Hand-wave a 2 - 5 year hard labour prison sentence, freeze all their skills during that time period, give them the skill physical labour as a result of all their years of toiling and finally give everyone else in the group a bunch of credits and one level to show the adventuring they did while the other player was incarcerated.

Talk to the player one to one and tell them you let them off with a warning. Tell them that this time they didn't die but if they keep doing dumb crap, like say walking out the airlock mid flight without a spacesuit they will die, and it won't be on your hands.

Return all the gear they had before they went to prison, which is only fair, but returning their money or not is up to you (I have no opinion either way on that).

New people to the group, have a two month trial period. Then there is a group vote as to weather or not they can keep playing with the group. A 2-5 year prison sentence would be the same as killing him because he would not be able to go out with the group and the group would not sit around for that time. With a juicer in the party if the trial went really bad and they were imprisoned with him the juicer would die or have to detox.

I didn't expect the group to wait around, hence the money and experience level awarded to them, the only snag is the juicer. Steal an from Dragonball Z, put him in a Hyberbolic Time Chamber
One week in normal time is a year's worth of time for him.

On a side note, are the new players aware of this two month trial basis before the vote ? Maybe they aren't taking it too seriously because they aren't sure if they will be around after two months ?
I know personally I wouldn't really want to join a game where they are like "Ok, donate two months of your free time gaming with us, but if we don't like you enough then you're out".

I know I'm exaggerating a bit with that statement but still, I know it would put me off. But that's just my opinion on that.

[Blue_Lion]

You mentioned a 2 month trial period, is this their first time ever playing an RPG or is it just the first time with your group ?

To me it sounds like the person is a somewhat decent role player, but maybe just not quite as clever as they think to try and pull off the type of character they want to play.

Years ago we had a guy who played with us on a regular basis and every character was a carbon copy of the previous, regardless of the occ he was currently playing.
There were times he came up with some good ideas but he was just immature, gaming wise, and all his characters carried axes and always had at least one minor super power (usually strength).

It became tiresome after awhile but as he got older he finally was able to break that mould. If your player is a long time gamer then like I said above maybe they are trying to play a character that is smarter then they are.

So my advice on an easy fix that doesn't result in death ? Hand-wave a 2 - 5 year hard labour prison sentence, freeze all their skills during that time period, give them the skill physical labour as a result of all their years of toiling and finally give everyone else in the group a bunch of credits and one level to show the adventuring they did while the other player was incarcerated.

Talk to the player one to one and tell them you let them off with a warning. Tell them that this time they didn't die but if they keep doing dumb crap, like say walking out the airlock mid flight without a spacesuit they will die, and it won't be on your hands.

Return all the gear they had before they went to prison, which is only fair, but returning their money or not is up to you (I have no opinion either way on that).

New people to the group, have a two month trial period. Then there is a group vote as to weather or not they can keep playing with the group. A 2-5 year prison sentence would be the same as killing him because he would not be able to go out with the group and the group would not sit around for that time. With a juicer in the party if the trial went really bad and they were imprisoned with him the juicer would die or have to detox.

I didn't expect the group to wait around, hence the money and experience level awarded to them, the only snag is the juicer. Steal an from Dragonball Z, put him in a Hyberbolic Time Chamber
One week in normal time is a year's worth of time for him.

On a side note, are the new players aware of this two month trial basis before the vote ? Maybe they aren't taking it too seriously because they aren't sure if they will be around after two months ?
I know personally I wouldn't really want to join a game where they are like "Ok, donate two months of your free time gaming with us, but if we don't like you enough then you're out".

I know I'm exaggerating a bit with that statement but still, I know it would put me off. But that's just my opinion on that.

He is aware that he is with the group on a trial basis.

All new players are aware of it. The group has multiple gms for different games. If you are in the group you can play 5 days a week. The rule on trial period is to avoid any one GM from kicking some one from the group while avoiding disruptive players.

[Razzinold]

So what was the final outcome ?

[Eagle]

Sounds like a player/GM conflict to me.

Some GMs have pet NPCs and they get really irritated if players mess with them. This looks to be one of those times. Super-lawyer is the prosecutor, and yet he's also a witness because it's his ride that was stolen? Riiight. If he's got a 98% success rate (and superpowers that make him super-persuasive), then why does it matter that the player refuses to hire a lawyer? Is there another super-lawyer out there who has a 99% success rate? If not, the guy is doomed anyway. So it's already a no-win scenario for him.

Anyway, I'm a criminal defense lawyer in real life. And the best defense to a stolen vehicle case is "I bought it from some dude". In Rifts Earth, where there's no such thing as a vehicle registration database, that's a very realistic possibility. "I gave Crazy Larry a lot of credits for this thing. Oh, somebody stole it from you? I don't know who that was, because I paid money for this thing." And there you go. Remember, you've got to possess property that you know is stolen. Take away super-lawyer (he's the damn victim, he can't be the prosecutor because he's subject to cross-examination) and your player has a good case.

[taalismn]

Anyway, I'm a criminal defense lawyer in real life. And the best defense to a stolen vehicle case is "I bought it from some dude". In Rifts Earth, where there's no such thing as a vehicle registration database, that's a very realistic possibility. "I gave Crazy Larry a lot of credits for this thing. Oh, somebody stole it from you? I don't know who that was, because I paid money for this thing." And there you go. Remember, you've got to possess property that you know is stolen. Take away super-lawyer (he's the damn victim, he can't be the prosecutor because he's subject to cross-examination) and your player has a good case.

"Cross examination by Mind Bleeder."
""...can we make a plea bargain?"
"You're not touching my brain you %%^%ing mutant."

"If I'm going to be put away on a trumped-up charge like this, I may as well be charged with a REAL crime."
"I don't think filching the judge's gavel counts."
"Nah, I was thinking more like blowing up the whole municipal block."

[Zamion138]

Maybe your GMPCs are to dear to your heart, Kingsdale runs evil merc groups and raiders use it as drop off point, property rights from how ever many kingdoms/territories over would honestly not be recognized. Now if you steal from a kingsdale citzen, or these guys are owed favors by the kingsdale goverment maybe.
The lawyers to over top, for me at least, it doesn't matter how he rolls, who he hires or what he does hes gonna loose the rail road trial.
Give him a chance to escape prison, if hes human have a cs dude pay his bail for info against some dbees or magic users, or go full double agent.
If hes a psi or magic user maybe he joins a cult in the jail or prison and becomes a witch for their dark god with a free teleport the hell out of there. Or just find a sleeping gaurd to kill and get the keys from.
Have the CS attack and blow the prison wall off and he can eacape in the chaos and 100% likely prison riot.

Maybe the pc's can kill uber lawyer before the trial and a normal prosecutor can step in who doesn't care or even know the details of the trail so he has a chance.

If you have to convict him sentence him to giving up a kidney and a lung and make him buy cyber replacements. Or send him to fetch the magic maguffin from some where.
Maybe the executioner hates the wronged party and botch the kill with a not so subtle , kill thoose dudes off later and I'll let you live. That way you get rid of the GMPC's and he gets an adventure and to keep his char.

[HWalsh]

PC: I didn't steal it. Korby sold it to me.

Super-Lawyer: This man stole it! I'm super persuas-

PC: Objection! Heresay.

Super-Lawyer: But-

PC: You have no proof. There's no DMV. You can't prove anything. Oh you have video? Sure. Nice try pal. Anyone can fake this with a suit of plastic man armor. Wait a darn second! This is a criminal trial! Why are you even allowed to be counsel? Shouldn't this fall under the DA? Your honor I ask this be declared a mistrial immediately under the grounds that this lawyer cannot be a lawyer. Furthermore arrest him for using his powers to influence the jury.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sounds like a player/GM conflict to me.

Some GMs have pet NPCs and they get really irritated if players mess with them. This looks to be one of those times. Super-lawyer is the prosecutor, and yet he's also a witness because it's his ride that was stolen? Riiight. If he's got a 98% success rate (and superpowers that make him super-persuasive), then why does it matter that the player refuses to hire a lawyer? Is there another super-lawyer out there who has a 99% success rate? If not, the guy is doomed anyway. So it's already a no-win scenario for him.

Anyway, I'm a criminal defense lawyer in real life. And the best defense to a stolen vehicle case is "I bought it from some dude". In Rifts Earth, where there's no such thing as a vehicle registration database, that's a very realistic possibility. "I gave Crazy Larry a lot of credits for this thing. Oh, somebody stole it from you? I don't know who that was, because I paid money for this thing." And there you go. Remember, you've got to possess property that you know is stolen. Take away super-lawyer (he's the damn victim, he can't be the prosecutor because he's subject to cross-examination) and your player has a good case.

Not for nothing but this sort of thing wouldn't work in rifts. Why? Because most people wouldn't care. The OP implys that it kinda would (By aspect of HAVING a laywer with a win loss rate) but in reality rifs doesnt' have centries of codified laws like we have. Stuff is pretty plain. Item goes missing. You're caught with item. You stole it. "Crazy larry sold it to me" Well unless Crazy Larry is there to testify he did sell it to you, and willing to take your place on the gallows, it's just going to be seen as a dodge. At the very least you're still guilty of receiving and possessing stolen property.

Crazy Larry sure as hell isn't going to say he sold it to you when a bunch of guys with laser guns show up. He's gong to tell them he never saw you before in his life, and oh.. that Vehicle looks hot. I don't deal in hot merch man.

But again. I don't see how this would ever make it to trial in anything shy of the CS and even then it wouldn't. Those mercs wouldn't want the guy arrested. They'd just catch up to him, wait till he came out of the megadamage vehicle to use the bathroom and vaporize his head. They're not calling cops for theft of a multimilliondollar MDC vehicle in the post apocalyptic world that is Rifts. They're going to blow his bloody head off. These guys aren't the "Huggy Kittens" they're the "Dyssfunctionals" lol. Dude stole their "Signature vehicle" Why would they call the cops?

[Eagle]

But again. I don't see how this would ever make it to trial in anything shy of the CS and even then it wouldn't. Those mercs wouldn't want the guy arrested. They'd just catch up to him, wait till he came out of the megadamage vehicle to use the bathroom and vaporize his head. They're not calling cops for theft of a multimilliondollar MDC vehicle in the post apocalyptic world that is Rifts. They're going to blow his bloody head off. These guys aren't the "Huggy Kittens" they're the "Dyssfunctionals" lol. Dude stole their "Signature vehicle" Why would they call the cops?

I agree with you on that. The closest thing to a trial you're going to get in most of Rifts Earth is Thunderdome. But that's not the situation as set up by OP.