when is strength damage added to thrown weapons?

[Axelmania]

I get the impression that the Xiticix' resin weapons do that, but I'm not sure about others, and if it only applies to supernatural strength or if enhanced/robotic might also be able to add MD to thrown weapon attacks.

[Blue_Lion]

That is likely do to a reference to the old system where SN punch damage was added to mellee weapons. If I recall right it started in conversion book 1.
Several weapons are on the book coded for it as a result of that time frame in the rules.
(RUE changed it where SN punch replaces weapon damage instead.)

[Greepnak]

I keep it. Saying more propulsive force doesn't assist throwing is too much handwavium. I want Atlas to throw tanks as a viable thing.

[Killer Cyborg]

When you're a mutant insect on Mars, hurling a boulder.

[DhAkael]

I keep it. Saying more propulsive force doesn't assist throwing is too much handwavium. I want Atlas to throw tanks as a viable thing.

There is a metric F-bomb load of stuff I ignore from R:UE... the exclusion of SpnPS / Robotic PS from appropriate thrown weapon and objects being one of them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The PS bonus is never added to any projectile weapon damages unless the weapon itself is specially constructed in a way that lets it be added. This is the basic rule as I understand it.
But note that these special weapons tend to have a PS requirement added to them.

[Axelmania]

Does it say anywhere not to add/replace SNPS damage for thrown?

Does the add/replace statements specify "melee" rather than "ancient" perhaps?

[J_cobbers]

From a realistic perspective weapons like bows and cross bows shouldn't get a PS bonus because they store and release a certain amount of energy based on how far back they are drawn and how strong the arms of the bow are. Other things like spears, throwing axes, and the like are directly propelled by a characters PS so adding bonuses makes sense. Not sure if a sling falls into the first or second category as it is how fast you spin it that matters. At any rate my understanding of the rules is no ps for ranged archaic weapons (thrown or otherwise) unless the description says so.

[Prysus]

Does it say anywhere not to add/replace SNPS damage for thrown?

Does the add/replace statements specify "melee" rather than "ancient" perhaps?

Greetings and Salutations. The specific term Palladium uses in the note is "hand weapon" (using neither "melee" nor "ancient"). They also use the term "wielding" which is present tense. They do not use past tense, which would be the case once you throw it. Also ...

The note says to replace it with their P.S. damage per the Supernatural Strength table, right? Here's the thing, that table is used to determine "hand to hand damage." In Palladium, hand to hand is melee. I say this as Hand to Hand bonuses only apply to melee, unless noted otherwise (look at HtH Assassin for exceptions). So if you're not fighting hand to hand, then that chart doesn't apply and, therefore, you wouldn't replace the weapon damage with nothing (the replacement note states whichever is greater). Furthermore ...

Palladium doesn't give P.S. damage bonuses (even for S.D.C. characters with S.D.C. weapons) for thrown weapons. This is alluded to in the Physical Strength description on page 279, but it doesn't address Thrown Weapons directly. For that, we can look to page 328 under "W.P. Targeting." There's a heading "No. P.S. Damage bonus" and mentions that this does not apply to thrown weapons. This note doesn't address Supernatural Strength directly, but the skill does discuss Supernatural Strength in regards to throwing weapons such as swords a little higher up (Throwing Awkward Items section). They gain a range benefit, but no other benefits listed. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Axelmania]

Hm, did the no PS damage bonus for thrown appear prior to Ultimate? Curious how long it's been around for.

[Greepnak]

No PS on thrown just leads to people never using thrown weapons OR playing a very brittle-boned campaign that doesnt take advantage of the fact that RIFTS has hovertanks and statted out babylonian gods.

Maybe some kind of cyberpunk sdc-only campaign in a burb or the republic of japan... but thats all I can think of quickly. I feel like rifts is at its best when it's a 90s comic with lots of pouches and people with tiny feet drubbing eachother with masonry and hulk muscles.

[Axelmania]

I wouldn't mind using thrown weapons even if it meant less damage, since it means you can't be simultaneously attacked by melee weapons, and benefit from HTH/PP bonuses unlike guns.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

From a realistic perspective weapons like bows and cross bows shouldn't get a PS bonus because they store and release a certain amount of energy based on how far back they are drawn and how strong the arms of the bow are. Other things like spears, throwing axes, and the like are directly propelled by a characters PS so adding bonuses makes sense. Not sure if a sling falls into the first or second category as it is how fast you spin it that matters. At any rate my understanding of the rules is no ps for ranged archaic weapons (thrown or otherwise) unless the description says so.

Addressing specifically the bows and crossbows part.

Generally speaking, once you get a bow or crossbow up to a certain poundage, increasing the poundage wont materially affect the damage the weapon inflicts anymore....

but it WILL grant it more range. So, strength should provide a benefit to bows in that way - but the bow should also require a higher PS to draw.
For Crossbows below ~1000lbs (Not to bog this down - if you want a good in-depth discussion on why Crossbow poundage is WAY higher than bows for similar damage/range, both Skallagrim and Scholagladiatora did excellent videos on the subject with demonstrations of period-accurate recreations (Todd's Stuff!) of Crossbows) - about the limit of what you can hand-span if you're really strong, or span with a simple pull-spanner (like the one in Skal's video, if you watch it), i'd allow a higher PS to increase fire rate. Past ~1000lbs, though... mechanical assistance is the only way you're going to span the thing and your PS wont help one bit

So i'd allow PS to "aid" bows and Crossbows that way, but for damage.. no, i'd agree, wont help. The projectile itself is the limiting factor in damage on bows and crossbows.

[guardiandashi]

From a realistic perspective weapons like bows and cross bows shouldn't get a PS bonus because they store and release a certain amount of energy based on how far back they are drawn and how strong the arms of the bow are. Other things like spears, throwing axes, and the like are directly propelled by a characters PS so adding bonuses makes sense. Not sure if a sling falls into the first or second category as it is how fast you spin it that matters. At any rate my understanding of the rules is no ps for ranged archaic weapons (thrown or otherwise) unless the description says so.

Addressing specifically the bows and crossbows part.

Generally speaking, once you get a bow or crossbow up to a certain poundage, increasing the poundage wont materially affect the damage the weapon inflicts anymore....

but it WILL grant it more range. So, strength should provide a benefit to bows in that way - but the bow should also require a higher PS to draw.
For Crossbows below ~1000lbs (Not to bog this down - if you want a good in-depth discussion on why Crossbow poundage is WAY higher than bows for similar damage/range, both Skallagrim and Scholagladiatora did excellent videos on the subject with demonstrations of period-accurate recreations (Todd's Stuff!) of Crossbows) - about the limit of what you can hand-span if you're really strong, or span with a simple pull-spanner (like the one in Skal's video, if you watch it), i'd allow a higher PS to increase fire rate. Past ~1000lbs, though... mechanical assistance is the only way you're going to span the thing and your PS wont help one bit

So i'd allow PS to "aid" bows and Crossbows that way, but for damage.. no, i'd agree, wont help. The projectile itself is the limiting factor in damage on bows and crossbows.

you know what I going to argue that the ~1000 lb limit is a good rule of thumb for "normal" people, but to be honest if you are "strong enough" that extra strength absolutely WILL factor into how fast it can be reloaded.

realize that this is mostly a Cinematic game in some ways but lets look at the practical consequences. if you are mister joe average with an 10-12 strength can span a ~200-240lb crossbow barehanded, one number I found says they can get up to ~5:1 advantage using a goatsfoot, meaning potentially 1000-1200lb crossbow, and more if they use various forms of winches/winding mechanisms (which of course slow down the reload process)
but if you have mr strongman with a 20 strength, who can carry 400lbs which means he can LIFT 800lbs which means they could "hand span" an 800lb crossbow, and theoretically goatsfoot up to a 4000lb crossbow, and something with supernatural strength could "hand span" up to 100x their strength stat and goatsfoot something 5x that strength.

note I am mostly playing devils advocate here.

now the big problem you would have is after a certain point a lot of these "crazy strong" bows and crossbows are going to be more dangerous than "firearms" just because if ANYTHING breaks, they are going to practically explode due to the forces involved.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

From a realistic perspective weapons like bows and cross bows shouldn't get a PS bonus because they store and release a certain amount of energy based on how far back they are drawn and how strong the arms of the bow are. Other things like spears, throwing axes, and the like are directly propelled by a characters PS so adding bonuses makes sense. Not sure if a sling falls into the first or second category as it is how fast you spin it that matters. At any rate my understanding of the rules is no ps for ranged archaic weapons (thrown or otherwise) unless the description says so.

Addressing specifically the bows and crossbows part.

Generally speaking, once you get a bow or crossbow up to a certain poundage, increasing the poundage wont materially affect the damage the weapon inflicts anymore....

but it WILL grant it more range. So, strength should provide a benefit to bows in that way - but the bow should also require a higher PS to draw.
For Crossbows below ~1000lbs (Not to bog this down - if you want a good in-depth discussion on why Crossbow poundage is WAY higher than bows for similar damage/range, both Skallagrim and Scholagladiatora did excellent videos on the subject with demonstrations of period-accurate recreations (Todd's Stuff!) of Crossbows) - about the limit of what you can hand-span if you're really strong, or span with a simple pull-spanner (like the one in Skal's video, if you watch it), i'd allow a higher PS to increase fire rate. Past ~1000lbs, though... mechanical assistance is the only way you're going to span the thing and your PS wont help one bit

So i'd allow PS to "aid" bows and Crossbows that way, but for damage.. no, i'd agree, wont help. The projectile itself is the limiting factor in damage on bows and crossbows.

you know what I going to argue that the ~1000 lb limit is a good rule of thumb for "normal" people, but to be honest if you are "strong enough" that extra strength absolutely WILL factor into how fast it can be reloaded.

realize that this is mostly a Cinematic game in some ways but lets look at the practical consequences. if you are mister joe average with an 10-12 strength can span a ~200-240lb crossbow barehanded,

I did say "very strong", not an average joe. I have a (fully modern, carbon fiber arms, modern string) 600lb hunting crossbow (that i used for LARPing for years by stringing it with a bungee cord). I can span it by using the foot stirrup, and i'm hardly a beefcake. Could i span it with it couched against my hips? Yeah, no way. You'd need a goatsfoot or handspanner for that.

one number I found says they can get up to ~5:1 advantage using a goatsfoot, meaning potentially 1000-1200lb crossbow, and more if they use various forms of winches/winding mechanisms (which of course slow down the reload process)
but if you have mr strongman with a 20 strength, who can carry 400lbs which means he can LIFT 800lbs which means they could "hand span" an 800lb crossbow, and theoretically goatsfoot up to a 4000lb crossbow, and something with supernatural strength could "hand span" up to 100x their strength stat and goatsfoot something 5x that strength.

note I am mostly playing devils advocate here.

now the big problem you would have is after a certain point a lot of these "crazy strong" bows and crossbows are going to be more dangerous than "firearms" just because if ANYTHING breaks, they are going to practically explode due to the forces involved.

Well, at a certain point, unless you made it out of some special material, itll explode anyway. Im not an expert on Crossbows, but i think period ones topped out at around 1400-1500lbs (and those were all cranked, a "cranequin") because they just didn't have the material science to make them hold up to the stresses.

Im sure with modern carbon fiber bodies and stuff we could do higher, but at a certain point it wouldnt matter because the bolt you're throwing off of it just wont gain anything else from the extra force. It only has so much mass - if you get it going too fast, itll literally shatter on impact before penetrating (though making it out of MDC materials might prevent that).

[SycophantNagaraja]

No PS on thrown just leads to people never using thrown weapons OR playing a very brittle-boned campaign that doesnt take advantage of the fact that RIFTS has hovertanks and statted out babylonian gods.

Maybe some kind of cyberpunk sdc-only campaign in a burb or the republic of japan... but thats all I can think of quickly. I feel like rifts is at its best when it's a 90s comic with lots of pouches and people with tiny feet drubbing eachother with masonry and hulk muscles.

Rob Liefeld/Greg Capullo for Rifts!

[Greepnak]

No PS on thrown just leads to people never using thrown weapons OR playing a very brittle-boned campaign that doesnt take advantage of the fact that RIFTS has hovertanks and statted out babylonian gods.

Maybe some kind of cyberpunk sdc-only campaign in a burb or the republic of japan... but thats all I can think of quickly. I feel like rifts is at its best when it's a 90s comic with lots of pouches and people with tiny feet drubbing eachother with masonry and hulk muscles.

Rob Liefeld/Greg Capullo for Rifts!

+2d6 pouches and ammo belts. On everyone. But feet shrink.