Maps in 2ED

[thorr-kan]

I was going over my 1ED books list night. Some of my favorite parts are what Palladium got to create. For instance, the various maps that detail the Zentraedi strike, wastelands, natural resources, and Invid/Zentraedi activity.

I always assumed these were just cut and paste maps, but they're not. They show changes as the settings progressed. They're included in:
RDF Manual
New World Order
Southern Cross
Invid Invasion

Do the 2ED books have any maps like this?

[Lt Gargoyle]

I like the maps myself. I don't think they do. My books are not infront of me at the moment, so I can not be 100% the moment.

[Seto Kaiba]

Do the 2ED books have any maps like this?

Nope, I don't think there are any maps in the 2nd Edition's "manga-size" printings.

[glitterboy2098]

so far there have been no maps. in part i believe this is due to Harmony gold not really letting palladium come up with non-canon nations and such with the current material. plenty of fluff indicating various nation-states, both UEG and non-aligned, exist after the bombardment, palladium just has not yet been allowed to put names, locations, and other details to them.

[thorr-kan]

Do the 2ED books have any maps like this?

Nope, I don't think there are any maps in the 2nd Edition's "manga-size" printings.

Make sense; at that size...

[Seto Kaiba]

so far there have been no maps. in part i believe this is due to Harmony gold not really letting palladium come up with non-canon nations and such with the current material. [...]

That's possible, I suppose... but it may also have something to do with the near total lack of detail regarding where anything in the series is, and inconsistencies among the few identified locations. Palladium's supposed to be keeping the new edition in line with the canon and the content of the series, and if the show has very little or nothing to tell them about where things are then making a map and risking it be rejected by Harmony Gold wouldn't be worth the effort.

Take, for instance, the inconsistencies regarding where New Macross City was... the way it's presented in the series, it's supposedly near the Grand Cannon up in Alaska in the Macross Saga, but the New Generation suggests it's somewhere in central Michigan and the RTSC art book suggests it's in Canada and that Reflex Point isn't the largest and most central hive, but one of the ones way the heck out on the edges.

There are plenty of other towns and cities named, but almost none have a concrete or even vague location given.

(It would be less of an issue if the game were based entirely on the OSM, since they're at least a little more definite about where things are, and in the case of Macross there are already some preexisting maps identifying where things like the Grand Cannons and South Ataria Island were.)

[ShadowLogan]

Take, for instance, the inconsistencies regarding where New Macross City was... the way it's presented in the series, it's supposedly near the Grand Cannon up in Alaska in the Macross Saga, but the New Generation suggests it's somewhere in central Michigan and the RTSC art book suggests it's in Canada and that Reflex Point isn't the largest and most central hive, but one of the ones way the heck out on the edges.

I don't think NG actually suggests a site for New Macross City. It is only recently that Reflex Point has been connected directly to SX-PT83 (SDF-1/Mounds), as prior to that they where separate locations. Reflex Point though is depicted as a network of Hives in NG.

[glitterboy2098]

Take, for instance, the inconsistencies regarding where New Macross City was... the way it's presented in the series, it's supposedly near the Grand Cannon up in Alaska in the Macross Saga, but the New Generation suggests it's somewhere in central Michigan and the RTSC art book suggests it's in Canada and that Reflex Point isn't the largest and most central hive, but one of the ones way the heck out on the edges.

I don't think NG actually suggests a site for New Macross City. It is only recently that Reflex Point has been connected directly to SX-PT83 (SDF-1/Mounds), as prior to that they where separate locations. Reflex Point though is depicted as a network of Hives in NG.

given that reflex point is also shown as a huge complex of hives covering the midwest, even that doesn't help pin it down. the mounds could easily be under one of the 'branch hives' depicted, and not the main one. which means it could be in quite a few places.

and sadly, the only map we we have in show is horrible..

[SailorCallie]

Take, for instance, the inconsistencies regarding where New Macross City was... the way it's presented in the series, it's supposedly near the Grand Cannon up in Alaska in the Macross Saga, but the New Generation suggests it's somewhere in central Michigan and the RTSC art book suggests it's in Canada and that Reflex Point isn't the largest and most central hive, but one of the ones way the heck out on the edges.

I don't think NG actually suggests a site for New Macross City. It is only recently that Reflex Point has been connected directly to SX-PT83 (SDF-1/Mounds), as prior to that they where separate locations. Reflex Point though is depicted as a network of Hives in NG.

given that reflex point is also shown as a huge complex of hives covering the midwest, even that doesn't help pin it down. the mounds could easily be under one of the 'branch hives' depicted, and not the main one. which means it could be in quite a few places.

and sadly, the only map we we have in show is horrible..

That pic may not be perfect, but it shows.

[MilkManX]

Yeah that was some cobbled together scribble that Scott had.

The one thing I miss about 1st ed was all the cool stuff they added to the world. HG would be doing themselves a favor to let Palladium do a bit more free writing for the world. I thought at least with Genesis Pits they were able to add more than what was in the 85 episodes or the SC movie.

[glitterboy2098]

sadly, while on screen wideshots of reflex point confirm the multi-hive nature of the complex, they are even more worthless in showing locations.
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

though combined, the map and the wide shots put the location of the central hive near the great lakes.
going by the great lakes map at wikipedia here, it'll be hard to pinpoint an exact location for the central hive because of how inconsistently the animators drew the surrounding terrain..

[silvermoon383]

Why not go with the picture from Shadow Chronicles? Star Trek's policy (if I remember right) is that the newest reference is the correct one (unless Word of God says otherwise).

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think NG actually suggests a site for New Macross City. It is only recently that Reflex Point has been connected directly to SX-PT83 (SDF-1/Mounds), as prior to that they where separate locations. Reflex Point though is depicted as a network of Hives in NG.

Not directly... but, as a side note, the official stance on the matter is that the three are one and the same. We're shown in the series that New Macross City (built around the SDF-1) is somewhere near the Alaskan Grand Cannon. We're also shown, via "From the Stars", that the domes of SX.83 were built right in the middle of New Macross City, over the wreckage of both the SDF-1 and Khyron's ship. That means that New Macross City IS SX.83, beyond any shadow of a doubt. Likewise, we're shown in the Masters Saga that the city is no longer there 14 years later, though the containment mounds remain. Then we get, via New Generation and RTSC, that SX.83 is also known as Reflex Point, and is what the Invid Regess built her hive on.

So we have an unbroken chain connecting New Macross City to SX.83 to Reflex Point to the main Invid hive... but somehow that location moved several thousand kilometers laterally, from near the Alaskan Grand Cannon (per the Macross Saga) to a location in central Michigan (prior to RTSC, the large central hive was said to be the one assaulted in the show), and to the current location in the Thunder Bay area.

Why not go with the picture from Shadow Chronicles? Star Trek's policy (if I remember right) is that the newest reference is the correct one (unless Word of God says otherwise).

Sadly, Robotech's official policy is somewhat schizophrenic and inconsistently applied. It's a veritable "Schrödinger's canon", as Rabid has quoted me saying on MacrossWorld. Harmony Gold's official canon policy is that the series is their main and most authoritative source of information, followed by an inconsistently applied melange of Tommy's say-so ("Word of God"), the original Japanese source material, the Shadow Chronicles material, and the other material made after the universe was rebooted in 2001. With the exception of the TV series, material that predates the reboot doesn't count for anything anymore, and the one major rule is that consistency with the original series is paramount.

In practice, the reality of Robotech's canon is that the most authoritative thing is Tommy's say-so as Robotech's creative director. He's overruled the show on a number of points, including the oft-contentious fusion "retcon" (which isn't actually a retcon, per se) and the business of the "Shrewfield Veritech". Robotech's only sequel, Tommy's Shadow Chronicles, often overrules the series as well. Other than that, Tommy usually follows an approach similar to what they used when the Infopedia was put together, so in reality the hierarchy of sources as actually applied by Tommy and co. goes something rather more like this, in descending order of "most correct and authoritative":

Hierarchy of Sources: Robotech
"Word of God" from Tommy Yune Highest Authority
Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles and Robotech the television series
Japanese original source material
Robotech's written material (Infopedia, AotSC, Wildstorm Comics)
"Word of God" from Carl Macek
Common sense guesswork Least Authority
Robotech 2nd Edition RPG Based on canon, but not actually canon itself

Robotech comics (pre-2001) Not Applicable
Robotech novels Not Applicable
Robotech RPG (1st Edition) Not Applicable
Robotech Art 1-3 Not Applicable

Even then, that's not 100% consistently applied.

[glitterboy2098]

well, we can always say that the SDF-1 was moved from the Alaskan location 'offscreen' easy enough.. it even makes sense that they'd not want to stick around in Alaska given the rather extreme weather they'd be expecting due to the bombardment. a location in a more temperate zone would certainly be more attractive.

so, on screen landing in alaska. offscreen move to near the great lakes and construction of the city.

[jedi078]

I made a world map for my Macross era game that shows what areas were made desolate by the Zentraedi bombardment, what areas were aligned to the UEG, what areas were controlled by the Zentraedi, what areas were aligned with the EBSIS (basically I wanted to keep the idea of an opposing group of nation states to the UEG), and what areas were not aligned to either the Zentraedi, UEG, or EBSIS.

I purposly left out any mention of pre-exsisting nation states because we really don't know if they failed to exsist anymore. Although some Destriods are seen with 'U.S. Army' painted on them.

[rtsurfer]

I wouldn't be surprised if Annie did draw Scott's map

A map from TNG clearly showing Reflex Pt in the vicinity of the Great Lakes, with the central hive in Michigan. (from Robotech Research)

Great Lakes map linked by glitterboy2098 for reference.

I suspect there was a line or maybe a zig zag of hives from the Mid West across the US connecting with the main hive complex in the Great Lakes region. Possibly along the primary dispersal path for the FoL at the end of TRM. It seems Scott's party skirted them across the continental US into NYC, then slightly back over and up to Reflex Pt.

[ShadowLogan]

Not directly... but, as a side note, the official stance on the matter is that the three are one and the same.

I am aware of the official stance, but that stance is a recent development and one that is not supported by the 85ep TV show. All the sources that make the connection are all post-2001 reboot mind you. So for 15years they are 2 separate sites, that sometime after 2001 are remade into one site.

There is a map in (or around) Ep35 that establishes a location for NMC, or a region close by on a monitor (looks like it is near US/canada boarder on West Coast). I think that is the only map that can be used to establish location (if we use TRM we can get Glorie, which looks like Euro-Asia IIRC). NG on the other hand has several instances of showing us that RP is in the Great Lakes region, though the specific location in the region isn't established due to the floating about it does (Reflex Point as a part-time floating structure?).

So...I think I am just going to ignore that series of images, cause that doesn't even work within the damn show itself!

How doesn't it work with the show itself?

It just establishes areas that are inaccessible to humans by land (could fly over it). An alternative might be that RP network is a mobile complex that occasionally acts as a floating complex (ex. Cloud City on Bespin from Star Wars) as that would explain the fluctuating nature of it's exact location in various shots one can point to.

[thorr-kan]

See, canon discussions like this are why I take the following view:

The Robotech RPG is a great RPG.
I heard they were going to make an animated show and a live action movie.
I also heard they were going release a second edition.
Too bad nothing ever came of that.

[Seto Kaiba]

well, we can always say that the SDF-1 was moved from the Alaskan location 'offscreen' easy enough.. it even makes sense that they'd not want to stick around in Alaska given the rather extreme weather they'd be expecting due to the bombardment. a location in a more temperate zone would certainly be more attractive.

With such comprehensive damage to the ecosystem, there's no guarantee that weather would be extreme (or any less so) anywhere else... and there is the little issue that the series shows us the SDF-1 wasn't exactly flight-capable for any significant duration after Ep27.

See, canon discussions like this are why I take the following view:

The Robotech RPG is a great RPG.
I heard they were going to make an animated show and a live action movie.
I also heard they were going release a second edition.
Too bad nothing ever came of that.

Heh, funnily enough discussions like this are why I take a very similar but subtly different view...

Robotech was an OK animated series back when it was new, what a shame it has no future prospects.
Palladium finally put out the promised Robotech RPG in 2008, 22 years late is better than never right?
Did Palladium ever fix those old, unrelated books they accidentally put Robotech covers on back in the 80s?

[rtsurfer]

^I don't recall animation or dialogue cues in the Robotech tv series placing the SDF-1 in Alaska. Someone want to point them out?

[glitterboy2098]

^I don't recall animation or dialogue cues in the Robotech tv series placing the SDF-1 in Alaska. Someone want to point them out?

because there isn't any, aside from the SDF-1's initial landing point after the destruction of the grand fleet being near the grand cannon.

Seto's using macross OSM, which says the ship didn't move after that event.

despite the fact that robotech sources don't say it didn't move, and location info for new macross city/ruins of the SDF-1 indicate it did.

well, we can always say that the SDF-1 was moved from the Alaskan location 'offscreen' easy enough.. it even makes sense that they'd not want to stick around in Alaska given the rather extreme weather they'd be expecting due to the bombardment. a location in a more temperate zone would certainly be more attractive.

With such comprehensive damage to the ecosystem, there's no guarantee that weather would be extreme (or any less so) anywhere else... and there is the little issue that the series shows us the SDF-1 wasn't exactly flight-capable for any significant duration after Ep27.

except that climate is heavily dependant on latitude, and after an event like that there would enough crap suspended in the air to induce a global mini ice age. staying in an area which was "freeze people solid" cold for most of the year even before the bombardment is not the greatest idea.
in macross they may not have had much of a choice. but indications in robotech are that the SDF-1 was moved. they may not have considered it reliable enough to keep using it after the move, but they apparently did move it.

[Seto Kaiba]

because there isn't any, aside from the SDF-1's initial landing point after the destruction of the grand fleet being near the grand cannon.

There's also the fact that surface ruins and a rather dark hole that may very well be the Grand Cannon's barrel are visible within the landscape of the post-escape establishing shot... and a host of other bits of evidence.

Seto's using macross OSM, which says the ship didn't move after that event.

No, I'm citing the fact that Robotech never says the ship was moved, only that the new city (New Macross City) had sprung up around the ship's landing site in Episode 28. Also, that the ship had barely enough power to hover when it was attacked in Episode 36. And, of course, that the wreckage didn't leave New Macross City either, courtesy of the reboot comic "From the Stars" which shows the containment domes from SX.83 being built inside the city.

despite the fact that robotech sources don't say it didn't move, and location info for new macross city/ruins of the SDF-1 indicate it did.

Just because the evidence doesn't say it didn't move doesn't mean it did. In fact, evidence from Episode 36 indicates that it DID NOT MOVE because Admiral Gloval and the bridge crew had no idea if the ship could even get airborne (and explicitly say as much) when they try to launch it to repulse Khyron's final attack. If the ship was moved prior to Episode 28, why would the citizens of the city be saying "I can't believe it!" when they're told that the ship is lifting off? There's nothing in the series that supports the idea that the ship was moved, and rather a lot that disproves the idea.

except that climate is heavily dependant on latitude, and after an event like that there would enough crap suspended in the air to induce a global mini ice age. staying in an area which was "freeze people solid" cold for most of the year even before the bombardment is not the greatest idea.

That's assuming enough remains of the planet's ecosystem to produce such a reaction... the Robotech version goes full-blown "No Endor Holocaust" on that front. The same can't be said for the Macross version, but that's rather a long explanation involving stuff from the The Lost Two Years segment.

[rtsurfer]

^IIRC the post-escape establishing shot just shows a bunch of craters, roughly the same size, with unspecified debris scattered around and in them.

[thorr-kan]

See, canon discussions like this are why I take the following view:

The Robotech RPG is a great RPG.
I heard they were going to make an animated show and a live action movie.
I also heard they were going release a second edition.
Too bad nothing ever came of that.

Heh, funnily enough discussions like this are why I take a very similar but subtly different view...

Robotech was an OK animated series back when it was new, what a shame it has no future prospects.
Palladium finally put out the promised Robotech RPG in 2008, 22 years late is better than never right?
Did Palladium ever fix those old, unrelated books they accidentally put Robotech covers on back in the 80s?

Heretic! Infidel! Unbeliever!

I can see that. I just didn't like the magna size and I liked the old timeline better. I'm looking at the Genesis Pits and Deluxe Shadow Chronicles at some point...

[Seto Kaiba]

Heretic! Infidel! Unbeliever!

You forgot "unconscionable evildoer". It's just not a proper denouncement without that one.

I can see that. I just didn't like the magna size and I liked the old timeline better. I'm looking at the Genesis Pits and Deluxe Shadow Chronicles at some point...

I guess if I'd been one of the 85ers like so many of the blokes who are into 1E, I would be kinder to it. I'm not, though, and since my exposure to 1E came after my exposure to Robotech's fledgling official canon, I tend to ascribe to a view similar to Harmony Gold's... that 1E isn't really Robotech (anymore). I didn't much care for manga size, but I followed the recommendation of a user here and had the pages separated and spiral-bound and it's much less annoying that way.

Since I've had a decent amount of insight into how Harmony Gold determines what's what in Robotech, it doesn't surprise me at all that we didn't get maps now that the RPG is expected to adhere to canon. The show doesn't tell us much about where things are, and the fans can't agree on much about that either.

[MilkManX]

Well I am an original 85'er(I was 8 when it hit the air and watched it over and over..) and I loved 1st edition Robotech(because that is all there was...)

That being said I am really impressed with the new 2nd edition as it is more accurate(no Vindicator lol)
So far I have the Shadow Chronicles HC,The New Gen source and the Genesis Pits. I want to get Macross and Robotech Masters but I am hoping for them to come out in 8.5 x 11" soon.
I do miss some of the fun stuff that Palladium had in 1st edition(EBSIS,Etc)

The cool thing is you can add that stuff if you want to. It is your game to run...

[Sgt Anjay]

More evidence slavish devotion to concepts such as "canon" are detrimental when adhered to above more productive and beneficial ideals in situations when it isn't warranted.

[Seto Kaiba]

That being said I am really impressed with the new 2nd edition as it is more accurate(no Vindicator lol)
So far I have the Shadow Chronicles HC,The New Gen source and the Genesis Pits. I want to get Macross and Robotech Masters but I am hoping for them to come out in 8.5 x 11" soon.

On balance, I've been pretty pleased with how 2nd Edition is shaping up, though I'm somewhat disappointed to see we ran out of viable material as fast as we did, forcing Palladium to turn to Harmony Gold's tactic of expanding minor stuff from individual episodes (e.g. the Genesis Pits) into whole books or pillaging the OSM concept art for ideas. I liked the revisions to the Macross Saga book enough to use it as a starting point for conversion, anyway.

I do miss some of the fun stuff that Palladium had in 1st edition(EBSIS,Etc)

Being that the Soviet Union dissolved while I was still a little kid, I never really liked the whole "Evil Soviets" thing. It loses a certain evil empire-ish aspect once you've seen how badly dysfunctional the Soviet government was. A villain who has to boil his own boots for nourishment isn't good for much in terms of intimidation.

The cool thing is you can add that stuff if you want to. It is your game to run...

Something I've taken to heart and rather run away with... with its stronger basis in OSM info, the Macross Saga 2nd Edition book makes a great jumping-off point for running a pure Macross game.

More evidence slavish devotion to concepts such as "canon" are detrimental when adhered to above more productive and beneficial ideals in situations when it isn't warranted.

Yeah, because that whole not-having-a-canon thing was totally working for Robotech... it let licensees churn out reams of inconsistent garbage that didn't sell, which is just great for business and even better for telling a story.

Even in this instance, having a canon helps a hell of a lot more than it hurts, even in a show like Robotech that's rife with issues because it was assembled by a hasty and imprecise hand, because people like being able to get actual answers to their questions, not just a helpless shrug and a heap of guesses. It also makes building on existing stories and material a lot easier, because you need a firm foundation to build on.

[Sgt Anjay]

More evidence slavish devotion to concepts such as "canon" are detrimental when adhered to above more productive and beneficial ideals in situations when it isn't warranted.

Yeah, because that whole not-having-a-canon thing was totally working for Robotech

It let Robotech expand to a wide variety of formats without them interfering with each other, and since the derivative works (comics, novels, RPG) outlasted the original work by a hefty margin, then yes, it did work. I could also point out all the successful franchises with multiple sets of continuity, rather than a single canon, but I don't have that kind of time, there are so many.

it let licensees churn out reams of inconsistent garbage that didn't sell

Plenty of it did sell, or it wouldn't have kept getting churned out long after the original series ended. I'll note that it's probably not a good idea to call the work of the licensees "inconsistent garbage" on the forums of one of those very licensees.

Even in this instance, having a canon helps a hell of a lot more than it hurts

Funny, cause I'm not seeing it, since we can't even get world maps to use for the RPG because of it.

people like being able to get actual answers to their questions, not just a helpless shrug and a heap of guesses.

That hilarious, since the current regime is notorious for handing fans a helpless shrug rather than answers.

It also makes building on existing stories and material a lot easier, because you need a firm foundation to build on.

Multiple continuities does not prevent additional stories; in point of fact, it often helps engender all sorts of stories that strict adherence to a "one canon to rule them all" policy would rule out. The initial arc of Invid War:Aftermath was a heck of an interesting and provocative story, but would be impossible to tell under the current set-up. It also helps prevent the descent of a work into mindless continuity porn.

[jaymz]

That being said I am really impressed with the new 2nd edition as it is more accurate(no Vindicator lol)
So far I have the Shadow Chronicles HC,The New Gen source and the Genesis Pits. I want to get Macross and Robotech Masters but I am hoping for them to come out in 8.5 x 11" soon.

On balance, I've been pretty pleased with how 2nd Edition is shaping up, though I'm somewhat disappointed to see we ran out of viable material as fast as we did, forcing Palladium to turn to Harmony Gold's tactic of expanding minor stuff from individual episodes (e.g. the Genesis Pits) into whole books or pillaging the OSM concept art for ideas. I liked the revisions to the Macross Saga book enough to use it as a starting point for conversion, anyway.

I use it as one item in at least a few for my Stats because is I have made well known I was not happy with 2nd ed in regards to the stats. Seto and I have worked together pretty closely to rectify my issues with them and I have redone them to my satisfaction.

I do miss some of the fun stuff that Palladium had in 1st edition(EBSIS,Etc)

Being that the Soviet Union dissolved while I was still a little kid, I never really liked the whole "Evil Soviets" thing. It loses a certain evil empire-ish aspect once you've seen how badly dysfunctional the Soviet government was. A villain who has to boil his own boots for nourishment isn't good for much in terms of intimidation.

I have EBSIS for MY Robotech but it isn't Soviet specifically. Like glitterboy2098 I used the name but for me it is Eastern Block Separatist Independent States. I did keep the Merchant Republic more or less as is though.

The cool thing is you can add that stuff if you want to. It is your game to run...

Something I've taken to heart and rather run away with... with its stronger basis in OSM info, the Macross Saga 2nd Edition book makes a great jumping-off point for running a pure Macross game.

Se my comments above about stats

More evidence slavish devotion to concepts such as "canon" are detrimental when adhered to above more productive and beneficial ideals in situations when it isn't warranted.

Yeah, because that whole not-having-a-canon thing was totally working for Robotech... it let licensees churn out reams of inconsistent garbage that didn't sell, which is just great for business and even better for telling a story.

Even in this instance, having a canon helps a hell of a lot more than it hurts, even in a show like Robotech that's rife with issues because it was assembled by a hasty and imprecise hand, because people like being able to get actual answers to their questions, not just a helpless shrug and a heap of guesses. It also makes building on existing stories and material a lot easier, because you need a firm foundation to build on.

I have to side with Seto on this one. Canon makes life easier for the fandom in general. My issue is HG has only really done what i see as a half arsed job of it really but that's just my opnion.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just wondering, but was it really necessary to break my reply apart into sentence fragments?

Yeah, because that whole not-having-a-canon thing was totally working for Robotech

It let Robotech expand to a wide variety of formats without them interfering with each other, and since the derivative works (comics, novels, RPG) outlasted the original work by a hefty margin, then yes, it did work.

Really, it didn't. One of the most frequently cited problems with the licensed material was that it had serious issues with internal inconsistency. The inconsistencies in the Comico comics were such that Harmony Gold had to add the comics to their FAQ, and the issues with panel-to-panel consistency graduated to meme status. More than one of Robotech's licensees lost the license because the ever-diminishing fanbase was seriously put off by a distinct absence of consistency in art quality, writing, etc., changes which were celebrated by the fans. It ended an unpleasantly large number of comics under Academy and Antarctic. The comics that did the best were, as we can easily see with the benefit of hindsight, those that were just copying from existing material (in effect, the ones we know did well followed a proto-canon). The novels were, and still are, lambasted because of how inconsistent their contents are with Robotech... to such an extent that there is a standing rule on Robotech.com about it. Even the TOYS were strongly criticized and lost sales because of inconsistent production quality... just look at the recall on the Shadow MPC that straight-up killed the MPC line.

And yes, the various formats DID interfere with each other. The Robotech fandom spent most of its formative years at its own throat fighting over the inconsistencies in the various versions of the story and how the licensees dropped the ball. Even Harmony Gold itself got on board with that, exiling the old material from the continuity due, in large measure, to its poor quality and inconsistency.

I could also point out all the successful franchises with multiple sets of continuity, rather than a single canon, but I don't have that kind of time, there are so many.

The difference being that, in many of those cases, there is at least some sort of official authority deciding what is in what continuity or what's official and what's not. It may not be universally accepted by the fans, but the authority is there.

I'll note that it's probably not a good idea to call the work of the licensees "inconsistent garbage" on the forums of one of those very licensees.

Looking back at it, Palladium's RPG was pretty much the exception to the rule. It was the one licensed work that didn't end in a train wreck cancellation sooner or later. Even then, the old books were frequently criticized for inconsistency with the series itself... so much so that Harmony Gold insisted on having editorial oversight over the 2nd Edition, which is a much higher-quality work that more accurately reflects the content of the series because there is a canon and it's being enforced. Funny how that works out, no?

Even in this instance, having a canon helps a hell of a lot more than it hurts

Funny, cause I'm not seeing it, since we can't even get world maps to use for the RPG because of it.

If they DID put them in, the only thing they'd get for it is endless bellyaching about how they're inaccurate because of trivial details X, Y, and Z. It really is the sensible choice. Like realistic depiction of space flight, leaving the maps out isn't something that's going to put most gamers off the game. The few folks who care about having that much detail will no doubt make their own homebrewed material to fill the gap anyway, deflecting the issue entirely. Palladium's a lucky outfit to have such loyal and energetic fans.

people like being able to get actual answers to their questions, not just a helpless shrug and a heap of guesses.

That hilarious, since the current regime is notorious for handing fans a helpless shrug rather than answers.

On some subjects, yeah... but more often than not you can actually get a straight answer to a question about how anything works, assuming there's a coherent answer to be had. I've personally had several discussions with TPTB on various aspects of Robotech and never failed to get a sensible answer that fit the evidence. (I never had the inclination to ask how protoculture works, so Tommy dodged that one.)

Multiple continuities does not prevent additional stories; in point of fact, it often helps engender all sorts of stories that strict adherence to a "one canon to rule them all" policy would rule out. The initial arc of Invid War:Aftermath was a heck of an interesting and provocative story, but would be impossible to tell under the current set-up.

Leaving out that Invid War: Aftermath had pretty poor art quality and turned into such a train wreck that it got the axe when Harmony Gold revoked Academy's license... multiple continuities doesn't prevent additional stories when it's properly managed. When it's not, you're stuck in a whose-universe-is-it-anyway situation like the Tenchi material was, or things get completely derailed over ownership like they did with Space Battleship Yamato or the lesser chaos gods in Warhammer and everything turns into a mess. Multiple, official continuities can be a great breather to break up a monolithic story like Gundam, but unless there's some authority saying what goes where (in essence, multiple canons), it all turns into a clusterfrak pretty quickly. That's why the most successful examples of franchises with multiple universes make sure to explain how it all fits together, often with convoluted graphics.

It also helps prevent the descent of a work into mindless continuity porn.

On the other hand, it can lead to schizophrenic inconsistency and epic failure with off-the-wall bizarreness the way it did when Robotech tried to make a clean break with its past and achieved its most epic failure yet, Robotech 3000... a title not even its animators could love. Other examples include terribad adaptations like House of the Dead.

[rtsurfer]

Its highly unlikely that RTLAM will adhere to the current canon/continuity. In fact WBs might be responsible for establishing multiple continuities once again. They have rights to at least one movie, possibly options for more, with related merchandising. Not to mention they currently hold video game and comic rights, although they have let them sit idol since the last TPB was canceled. HG apparently assigned/optioned most of their Robotech properties to WBs, wouldn't a series of movies based on the original novels [note I say original as HG is reportedly rewriting them to fit current continuity] or even RT3K be a hoot

Personally, I think maintaining a single canon/continuity from the beginning is one thing, while trying to wipe out multiple parallel continuities after the fact is another. Besides that it wasn't even a clean reboot, rather a bit of a Frankenstein monster

[Seto Kaiba]

Its highly unlikely that RTLAM will adhere to the current canon/continuity.

Pretty much a given, actually... didn't Harmony Gold confirm that it was planned as a reimagining of Robotech? The obvious, unspoken addendum being "for legal reasons".

In fact WBs might be responsible for establishing multiple continuities once again. [...]

That's if the movie even gets made... right now it's giving every sign of being dead in the water, a situation it's been in almost from the day it was announced. With all forward motion in RT suspended because of the LAM project's existence, it may also be that Harmony Gold intends to flip the Robotech property entirely if the LAM works out, allowing WB to delete the rebooted continuity as well and start a new, sole continuity with their new material. That would put the original series and the current continuity out in the "not real Robotech" bin with the old comics and 1st Edition RPG.

Personally, I think maintaining a single canon/continuity from the beginning is one thing, while trying to wipe out multiple parallel continuities after the fact is another. Besides that it wasn't even a clean reboot, rather a bit of a Frankenstein monster

Calling them multiple, parallel continuities is probably giving them more credit than they deserve. The novels were a self-contained thing, for the most part, but the comics and 1st Ed. RPG definitely weren't. None of 'em were really intended as parallel continuities either, they're more cases of adaptations gone horribly, horribly wrong.

[Sgt Anjay]

More evidence slavish devotion to concepts such as "canon" are detrimental when adhered to above more productive and beneficial ideals in situations when it isn't warranted.

Yeah, because that whole not-having-a-canon thing was totally working for Robotech... it let licensees churn out reams of inconsistent garbage that didn't sell, which is just great for business and even better for telling a story.

Even in this instance, having a canon helps a hell of a lot more than it hurts, even in a show like Robotech that's rife with issues because it was assembled by a hasty and imprecise hand, because people like being able to get actual answers to their questions, not just a helpless shrug and a heap of guesses. It also makes building on existing stories and material a lot easier, because you need a firm foundation to build on.

I have to side with Seto on this one. Canon makes life easier for the fandom in general. My issue is HG has only really done what i see as a half arsed job of it really but that's just my opnion.

Multiple continuities doesn't seem to have hurt Transformers fans. Last I checked, that fandom is puttering along quite nicely despite how many different versions of Transformers there are.

Oh, and Superman seems to be doing ok despite how many different versions of him and his stories are out there.

I could go on and on. Really, claiming that there can only be One Canon To Rule Them All for something to be successful with fans doesn't have a whole lot of leg to stand on.

[jaymz]

Did you completely miss the second half of what i said in teh quote you took of me?

My issue is HG has only really done what i see as a half arsed job of it really but that's just my opnion.

You want multiple continuities that's fine however in the example you gave they actually did it ON PURPOSE. Robotech's exists because of poor quality control and lack of oversight. there was no concerted effort to create different continuities.

[Seto Kaiba]

Multiple continuities doesn't seem to have hurt Transformers fans. Last I checked, that fandom is puttering along quite nicely despite how many different versions of Transformers there are.

Funnily enough, that's another environment where the continuities are managed and there's clear delineation... usually arranged around who published what.

Oh, and Superman seems to be doing ok despite how many different versions of him and his stories are out there.

Actually, the seemingly-infinite number of continuity snarls and retcons resulting from the shared universe production scheme used in American comics (aka "inconsistency") is frequently credited as one of the primary factors behind the decline of comic book readership and one of the chief obstacles to getting new readers on any given title. (In fact, DC Comics itself has pointed to this as the chief motivation behind at least one of their whole-universe reboot/retcons.)

EDIT: Scratch that, this seems to be the thinly-veiled motivation behind most, if not all, of them. "Crisis on Infinite Earths" was just the first time they came right out and SAID it without dressing it up as making the characters and story "more accessible".

EDIT 2: This was also apparently the motivation behind the establishment of DC's All-Stars line and Marvel's Ultimate universe as well, an attempt to sidestep the problem of their kudzu canon making the stories nearly impossible for the established readers to follow, let alone new ones.

I could go on and on. Really, claiming that there can only be One Canon To Rule Them All for something to be successful with fans doesn't have a whole lot of leg to stand on.

There are some fairly serious issues with all of your examples, as this and my previous post illustrate. I think you may be coming to a false conclusion based on misleading perceptions of the reality of how successful multiversal titles get by. Robotech itself is a beautiful example of the problems an unmanaged creative process can cause, you don't get a multiverse of parallel continuities, you get a mess... and eventually it's someone's job to straighten that mess out.

[Sgt Anjay]

Just wondering, but was it really necessary to break my reply apart into sentence fragments?

Given how much vituperation you cram into any given sentence, yes.

Yeah, because that whole not-having-a-canon thing was totally working for Robotech

It let Robotech expand to a wide variety of formats without them interfering with each other, and since the derivative works (comics, novels, RPG) outlasted the original work by a hefty margin, then yes, it did work.

Really, it didn't.

In order for this to be true, the novels, comics, and RPG couldn't have gone on long past the tv series. But they did. All the rhetoric in the universe doesn't change the fact that despite the cartoon going under, novels kept coming out, comics were published, RPG books were written and played and enjoyed.

And in point of fact, were it not for these derivative works...well, for one, these forums we're talking on now wouldn't exist, now would they?

Those things helped keep Robotech an ongoing thing even as the animation side seemed long gone.

And yes, the various formats DID interfere with each other. The Robotech fandom spent most of its formative years at its own throat fighting over the inconsistencies in the various versions of the story and how the licensees dropped the ball.

Because, of course, there aren't any other franchises with fans that get at each other's throats or anything. Please.

But yes, fans did argue with each other about which versions should be lauded and which should be lambasted, which is real Robotech and which was not, etc. I should know, I was actually there for that. It was already there at the infancy of the internet. And frankly, if HG had just come out and said they were going with multiple continuities, a lot of it wouldn't have been as vociferous as it was. But HG didn't really have much interest in Robotech; it was those very works, those novels and RPG books and comics, which were keeping it going as much as it was. Sure, fans were shouting and flaming...but that's a whole lot better than silence. The novels and comics and RPG gave the fans new stuff to talk about and hash over, and ok yes flame about. People got heated; that also means they cared.

I could also point out all the successful franchises with multiple sets of continuity, rather than a single canon, but I don't have that kind of time, there are so many.

The difference being that, in many of those cases, there is at least some sort of official authority deciding what is in what continuity or what's official and what's not. It may not be universally accepted by the fans, but the authority is there.

Oh, HG could have done a much better job of handling Robotech; good luck finding someone who won't agree to that. Doesn't change that insisting that multiple continuities is inherently bad is easily contradicted.

So, to put it another way:
Bad management of franchise equals bad.
Different versions of franchise doesn't equal bad.
Trying to force a franchise with different versions to not be a franchise with different versions I don't think equals good management, especially when adherence to the One Canon To Rule Them All prevents the fans from getting what they want.

I'll note that it's probably not a good idea to call the work of the licensees "inconsistent garbage" on the forums of one of those very licensees.

Looking back at it, Palladium's RPG was pretty much the exception to the rule. It was the one licensed work that didn't end in a train wreck cancellation sooner or later.

Uh, what sort of revisionist history is this? The novels only ended after the entire events of the TV series, all of Sentinels (the only completed version, I might add), an end to end to the story of Robotech, and then three "fill the gaps" novels were published. You can point out all the criticisms ever levied at the novels, both fair and unfair, that you want; the fact remains, the tv series was long gone but they kept getting published. Publishing companies don't publish 21 books of a series that isn't selling and is hated by the fans.

The comics are a mixed bag, of course, varying wildly by creative team and publishing company as comics are wont to do, especially in the world of small-press indy stuff, which is the world Robotech found itself. Some of them were train wrecks and treated as such, not even really being worthy of footnote status. Many had really neat stories to tell, and were well enjoyed. Painting them all with the broad brush as unmitigated garbage is as laughable as it is unfair, especially considering the nod given to the Waltrips. Mind you, sometimes series that started well ended up with them lasting past the point they probably should have, but that's not uncommon in the medium of small-press comics. Some had bad art, good stories, some had good art and bad stories (a Zentraedi ship using a barrier system to block the SDF-1's main gun in Jupiter's orbit? The hell! Pretty panel, though).

But I'll point out that the current, canon-centric regime managed...what, a few limited series over four years? I fail to see how that surpasses previous performance from a commercial standpoint. And huh, they reprinted the first 24 issues of the Comico Macross Saga comics and the Graphic Novel under the current regime. That's interesting.

Even then, the old books were frequently criticized for inconsistency with the series itself... so much so that Harmony Gold insisted on having editorial oversight over the 2nd Edition, which is a much higher-quality work that more accurately reflects the content of the series because there is a canon and it's being enforced. Funny how that works out, no?

The 1st ed RPG did the best it could with what it had, then continued on from there. If it had had to rely on HG for material back in the day, it would have collapsed. It became its own version of Robotech out of necessity; it wouldn't have been sustainable otherwise. The new edition does have many improvements over the old, but I would balk at laying all the credit to the fact that there's now only one version of Robotech. The previous mistakes could have been fixed without pretending there's only one version of Robotech. At best, the regime changeover and subsequent re-acquisition of the license provided impetus for a new edition, which while a good thing doesn't entitle all the credit to be layed at the concept of canon, especially since the RPG isn't considered \canon and includes many things that are not in or from any "canon".

And of course, the new edition has plenty of criticisms and detractors, if you hadn't notice. That's just the nature of the beast. Their existence doesn't relegate 2nd ed to the scrap heap anymore than 1st ed's relegate it to being garbage.

Even in this instance, having a canon helps a hell of a lot more than it hurts

Funny, cause I'm not seeing it, since we can't even get world maps to use for the RPG because of it.

If they DID put them in, the only thing they'd get for it is endless bellyaching about how they're inaccurate because of trivial details X, Y, and Z. It really is the sensible choice.

Oh, that must be why maps were such a failure the first time around. Oh, wait, they weren't.

Like realistic depiction of space flight, leaving the maps out isn't something that's going to put most gamers off the game.

Never meant to say that leaving maps out would kill the game; what I said was it is yet another example of material that talented game designers can't give the fans due to the blind adherence to the principle of canon.

people like being able to get actual answers to their questions, not just a helpless shrug and a heap of guesses.

That hilarious, since the current regime is notorious for handing fans a helpless shrug rather than answers.

On some subjects, yeah... but more often than not you can actually get a straight answer to a question about how anything works, assuming there's a coherent answer to be had. I've personally had several discussions with TPTB on various aspects of Robotech and never failed to get a sensible answer that fit the evidence. (I never had the inclination to ask how protoculture works, so Tommy dodged that one.)

Well, y'know, I'm glad you're satisfied and all, but you're not the whole of the fandom. And near as I can tell, the fandom still seems to have quite a large number of unanswered questions and a multitude of points of debate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say they've done nothing or that everything they've done is bad, but I don't see this halcyon golden age coming into being just because there's suddenly One Canon to Rule Them All.

Multiple continuities does not prevent additional stories; in point of fact, it often helps engender all sorts of stories that strict adherence to a "one canon to rule them all" policy would rule out. The initial arc of Invid War:Aftermath was a heck of an interesting and provocative story, but would be impossible to tell under the current set-up.

Leaving out that Invid War: Aftermath had pretty poor art quality and turned into such a train wreck that it got the axe when Harmony Gold revoked Academy's license

You'd do well to leave that out, since it is either patently untrue or simply doesn't apply. You seem to have failed to note that I specifically specified the initial arc of Aftermath...a self-contained, 6-issue story that was published entirely within the scope of Eternity Comics. That initial 6-issue run of Aftermath was greenlit specifically because fans loved the Invid War series that had been published by Eternity and wanted it continued somehow despite the departure of the previous creative team, which ended it. And per Bruce Lewis, the author, the fanmail was 5:1 in favor of his story as it was being published. The art in that arc, by the by, was quirky and unique, but actually quite lovely. The scarred Rook, despotic Scott, and blooming Annie all had appeal even as you delved into this world gone wrong. I'll also point out that it didn't "get the axe" at the termination of Academy's license, Bruce left the series due to an increased workload in his own comic studio.

multiple continuities doesn't prevent additional stories when it's properly managed. When it's not, you're stuck in a whose-universe-is-it-anyway situation

I quite agree. And what Robotech needed was that management, not someone coming in with an axe and mashing half-contrived reset buttons.

It also helps prevent the descent of a work into mindless continuity porn.

On the other hand, it can lead to schizophrenic inconsistency and epic failure with off-the-wall bizarreness the way it did when Robotech tried to make a clean break with its past and achieved its most epic failure yet, Robotech 3000... a title not even its animators could love. Other examples include terribad adaptations like House of the Dead.

Oh, point taken...multiple continuities has its own pitfalls, just like the single continuity approach does. Neither one is the "right" way to do things, they are both valid ways.

Which is why I'm taking exception to folks trying to claim that it's wrong for Robotech to have multiple continuities, because the only right way is to only have One Canon To Rule Them All.

[Sgt Anjay]

Did you completely miss the second half of what i said in teh quote you took of me?

My issue is HG has only really done what i see as a half arsed job of it really but that's just my opnion.

You want multiple continuities that's fine however in the example you gave they actually did it ON PURPOSE. Robotech's exists because of poor quality control and lack of oversight. there was no concerted effort to create different continuities.

No, I really don't think the novels were accidentally written differently from the tv series or the RPG or the comics. They had access to the tv series, and Macek himself. The novels were written how the authors wanted to write them, which means that yes they intentionally created their own version of Robotech. It certainly didn't really hurt the ability to keep getting published to an appreciable degree since they completed the grand arc of Robotech far beyond any other medium has managed and threw in three "fill the gap" books to boot.

The comics, for their part, clearly knew that when they created series that didn't take place during the episodes they were creating a version of Robotech that was different from any other; and, in point of fact, the Waltrips diverged their version of Sentinels from the novels. When End of the Circle was published, it was even noted that the comics had no capability to adapt it as it was a wholly separate thing.

So while Harmony Gold may not have been out there trying to actively create different Robotech timelines, the people actually creating Robotech product clearly knew what they were doing, they just didn't find cause to let that stop them. It wasn't a "mistake", it was having separate creative teams with the freedom to go their own way because HG was hands off.

[ShadowLogan]

On balance, I've been pretty pleased with how 2nd Edition is shaping up, though I'm somewhat disappointed to see we ran out of viable material as fast as we did, forcing Palladium to turn to Harmony Gold's tactic of expanding minor stuff from individual episodes (e.g. the Genesis Pits) into whole books or pillaging the OSM concept art for ideas.

Aside from your portrayal of the Genesis Pits, we seem to agree.

I only think the Genesis Pits as minor is a disservice as it was involved with a major plot point as it sets the stage for the human-form Invid, points to the Invid doing experiments about Earth's creatures (which comes up again w/Dusty Ares). The Regis does make a statement that other GP might exist beyond the one the one we saw. So having a SB to explore it isn't a bad idea (note I don't have the GP SB yet so my reply is in a limited context).

I have to side with Seto on this one. Canon makes life easier for the fandom in general. My issue is HG has only really done what i see as a half arsed job of it really but that's just my opnion.

+1, though I think you are being generous.

The novels were, and still are, lambasted because of how inconsistent their contents are with Robotech...

It should still be noted that while the novels aren't consistent with the TV show, they are internally consistent with themselves much more so than the TV series was (IIRC).

And if you want to talk inconsistencies between adaptions look at 2001: A Space Odyssey and how the script/novel where written. Jupiter vs Saturn. Orbiting vs surface for the 2nd Monolith. When and How HAL kills the crew. The amount of dialogue. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is another (though in this case working in reverse), especially when you compare the novel to the US Movie a few years back (and not the older BBC TV mini-series). So to expect a 100% consistency between adaptions is laughable.

Robotech's exists because of poor quality control and lack of oversight. there was no concerted effort to create different continuities.

On the flip-side though, there was no concerted effort to create a single continuity either until ~2001, some 16years after the fact.

Yet even with that you had some consistency with the timeline in placing NG events to the 2030s (1E RPG, Novels), instead of the more recent 2040s of today.

Robotech itself is a beautiful example of the problems an unmanaged creative process can cause, you don't get a multiverse of parallel continuities, you get a mess... and eventually it's someone's job to straighten that mess out.

While I don't think they can easily straighten out the entire mess they caused pre-2001-ish, some of it can be straightened out from the mess when putting it into an AU. That doesn't mean HG has to support these "older" AUs with new material, merely put them there.

[jaymz]

Did you completely miss the second half of what i said in teh quote you took of me?

My issue is HG has only really done what i see as a half arsed job of it really but that's just my opnion.

You want multiple continuities that's fine however in the example you gave they actually did it ON PURPOSE. Robotech's exists because of poor quality control and lack of oversight. there was no concerted effort to create different continuities.

No, I really don't think the novels were accidentally written differently from the tv series or the RPG or the comics. They had access to the tv series, and Macek himself. The novels were written how the authors wanted to write them, which means that yes they intentionally created their own version of Robotech. It certainly didn't really hurt the ability to keep getting published to an appreciable degree since they completed the grand arc of Robotech far beyond any other medium has managed and threw in three "fill the gap" books to boot.

The comics, for their part, clearly knew that when they created series that didn't take place during the episodes they were creating a version of Robotech that was different from any other; and, in point of fact, the Waltrips diverged their version of Sentinels from the novels. When End of the Circle was published, it was even noted that the comics had no capability to adapt it as it was a wholly separate thing.

So while Harmony Gold may not have been out there trying to actively create different Robotech timelines, the people actually creating Robotech product clearly knew what they were doing, they just didn't find cause to let that stop them. It wasn't a "mistake", it was having separate creative teams with the freedom to go their own way because HG was hands off.

I think you give tptb at HG WAY too much credit. At BEST any kind of "different" Robotech was nothing but accidental. The only reason there was ANY "different" Robotech is because there was no real oversight as to what the hell was going on. HG has never shown anything but indifference to the Robotech License. The pruposefulness you acredit to the "different" Robotech goes completely counter to how HG has ever treated the franchise.

I've read the Sentinels Comics. Although the comics were incomplete, after having reread the Sentinels novels, they were actually fairly close in resemblance. The comics depicting the Malcontent Uprisings etc were also fairly close in resemblance to Zentraedi Rebellion as well. (reread both last summer)

[Seto Kaiba]

Just wondering, but was it really necessary to break my reply apart into sentence fragments?

Given how much vituperation you cram into any given sentence, yes.

You should see what I can do when I try.

In order for this to be true, the novels, comics, and RPG couldn't have gone on long past the tv series. But they did. All the rhetoric in the universe doesn't change the fact that despite the cartoon going under, novels kept coming out, comics were published, RPG books were written and played and enjoyed.

All the same, no amount of ear-covering, head-buried-in-the-sand denial will change the fact that after the animated series went under, there was precious little made that actually lasted more than a short time. Palladium's role-playing game and the McKinney novels were the exceptions to the rule in an era where practically nothing Robotech had any staying power. Most ended up canceled because of poor sales, and what little DID sell was mostly selling to fans only in very small volumes, much like the way anything Robotech is sold today. History shows us that, while the licensed materials did keep coming out in fits and starts after the show went off the air, they were primarily not at all successful.

And in point of fact, were it not for these derivative works...well, for one, these forums we're talking on now wouldn't exist, now would they?

D'you remember how, in my previous post, I pointed out that the few Robotech licensed works that didn't end up canceled because of poor sales were those that drew on a kind of proto-canon to ensure their consistency? Palladium didn't pull 1E out of their arses, Anjay. The contents of the books are based on (no surprises here) a review of the series in detail and translated OSM material. The McKinney novels were based on Carl Macek's notes for RT2, and the Waltrip Sentinels comics (though eventually canceled) relied principally on those novels and review of what'd been made before Sentinels got the axe.

Funny, isn't it, that the stuff that was just "out there" failed, and the stuff that tried to adhere to a canon before an official canon existed is what lasted.

But yes, fans did argue with each other about which versions should be lauded and which should be lambasted, which is real Robotech and which was not, etc. I should know, I was actually there for that.

Then you know that that bickering did more to hurt the fandom and drive people away from Robotech than it did to keep the franchise alive. We're still dealing with the fallout of that period today, from the continuing decline of the fan base to the fact that the poor sales performance of the titles in the "anything for a buck" era convinced Harmony Gold's executives that failure is the only option where Robotech is concerned.

And frankly, if HG had just come out and said they were going with multiple continuities, a lot of it wouldn't have been as vociferous as it was. But HG didn't really have much interest in Robotech; it was those very works, those novels and RPG books and comics, which were keeping it going as much as it was.

The point jaymz, ShadowLogan, and I have all essentially made here is that, if Harmony Gold had set out to make multiple continuities things things would probably have been different. The key point there being that in their handling of licensees before the reboot in 2001, Harmony Gold didn't set out to make multiple continuities. Nor did the licensees, for that matter. They just sold licenses to whoever was willing to pay, and let them do as they pleased. A really, phenomenally terrible move that resulted in a lot of poor quality products that were wildly inconsistent with the series, with each other, and often with themselves as well. There are no multiple continuities because nobody in this clusterfrak actually set out to make such a thing. The illusion of multiple continuities is simply the result of poor planning and inconsistent work by many of the companies that held the license over the years... never mind the other issues like rampant tracing and plagiarism.

Bad management of franchise equals bad.
Different versions of franchise doesn't equal bad.
Trying to force a franchise with different versions to not be a franchise with different versions I don't think equals good management, especially when adherence to the One Canon To Rule Them All prevents the fans from getting what they want.

Let's put a realistic spin on this, just for giggles.

Disinterested or inattentive management of a franchise is bad, no matter how dire that franchise's prospects.

There's nothing wrong with a properly-managed franchise doing something like an alterniverse story, provided they are clear that it IS an alterniverse story and they themselves are sure of how everything fits together. It can be a highly useful "breather" in a long-running series.

Trying to force the definition of "multiple continuities" onto inconsistent, poor-quality work that was never intended to represent multiple continuities by anyone involved in its creation is putting a ribbon on dung in the faint hope that the ribbon will distract people from the stench. It doesn't change the fundamental nature of the thing.

Attentive and involved management uses tools like canon and editorial oversight of licensees to ensure that materials produced by those licensees line up with the conventions of their established setting(s). Having a framework to build upon ensures consistency, continuity, and makes the job of the writers and artists that much easier. It lets them do more consistent, high-quality work than they would otherwise be capable of if they were just winging it.

But I'll point out that the current, canon-centric regime managed...what, a few limited series over four years? I fail to see how that surpasses previous performance from a commercial standpoint.

Then you might want to actually look at how the comics performed, that will tell you exactly how the current regime's approach surpasses the previous performance of old licensees. Most of the old comics didn't sell worth a damn, which was a big part of why the license changed hands so often. The perpetually low quality of the comics wasn't any boon to sales, and many of them ended their runs in cancellation. The lack of quality material did nothing for the franchise's ability to retain its audience either, nor did the flame wars that erupted around the inconsistencies in the materials vs. the show and vs. each other. The "current regime" is, at the very least, not losing money on the comics the way the licensees were. They're not having comics collect dust on comic store shelves, ending series in cancellations because the fans hate what they're doing.

That's a step up for Robotech.

And huh, they reprinted the first 24 issues of the Comico Macross Saga comics and the Graphic Novel under the current regime. That's interesting.

Isn't the reason obvious? The damage done to the franchise by the failures of the "anything for a buck" licensees and the decline of the fanbase that was accelerated by the rabid flame wars over the various inconsistent versions left its management with the distinct impression that Robotech is not worth investing in the future development of, and that it's much easier to just repackage old stuff to prey on the nostalgia that's all that's keeping most Robotech fans around.

(It's really sad that the one who acknowledged that Harmony Gold didn't see Robotech as viable anymore was their marketing coordinator, the guy whose job it is to make the franchise look good.)

multiple continuities doesn't prevent additional stories when it's properly managed. When it's not, you're stuck in a whose-universe-is-it-anyway situation

I quite agree. And what Robotech needed was that management, not someone coming in with an axe and mashing half-contrived reset buttons.

"Mashing half-contrived reset buttons" is more or less the multi-industry approved practice for fixing the kind of mess that the "anything for a buck" licensees made without anyone to corral them and direct their efforts. There was just no way they were going to be able to clean that mess up and dress it up as any number of parallel universes, the safest way to deal with it is the comics industry's tried and true "screw it, let's start over" method. Would it have been nice to throw the fans a bone by calling some of the less horrifically inconsistent titles alterniverse stories? Yeah. But it'd also be legally problematic if the fans ever demanded a reprint, since many of the comics indulge heavily in copyright infringement of various types, and even 1E accidentally put stuff they couldn't actually legally use in a few times...

Which is why I'm taking exception to folks trying to claim that it's wrong for Robotech to have multiple continuities, because the only right way is to only have One Canon To Rule Them All.

The problem is that your objection was that adherence to canon in the making of licensed material was detrimental to the work, which is very obviously not true. Thanks to having a canon, even though we miss some minor details which the publisher can't give us because of inconsistent information in the show, we still get a more consistent product of much higher quality that actually reflects the content of the show the game is based on... the ultimate goal of such licensed games as the Robotech RPG.

[Sgt Anjay]

Did you completely miss the second half of what i said in teh quote you took of me?

My issue is HG has only really done what i see as a half arsed job of it really but that's just my opnion.

You want multiple continuities that's fine however in the example you gave they actually did it ON PURPOSE. Robotech's exists because of poor quality control and lack of oversight. there was no concerted effort to create different continuities.

No, I really don't think the novels were accidentally written differently from the tv series or the RPG or the comics. They had access to the tv series, and Macek himself. The novels were written how the authors wanted to write them, which means that yes they intentionally created their own version of Robotech. It certainly didn't really hurt the ability to keep getting published to an appreciable degree since they completed the grand arc of Robotech far beyond any other medium has managed and threw in three "fill the gap" books to boot.

The comics, for their part, clearly knew that when they created series that didn't take place during the episodes they were creating a version of Robotech that was different from any other; and, in point of fact, the Waltrips diverged their version of Sentinels from the novels. When End of the Circle was published, it was even noted that the comics had no capability to adapt it as it was a wholly separate thing.

So while Harmony Gold may not have been out there trying to actively create different Robotech timelines, the people actually creating Robotech product clearly knew what they were doing, they just didn't find cause to let that stop them. It wasn't a "mistake", it was having separate creative teams with the freedom to go their own way because HG was hands off.

I think you give tptb at HG WAY too much credit. At BEST any kind of "different" Robotech was nothing but accidental. The only reason there was ANY "different" Robotech is because there was no real oversight as to what the hell was going on. HG has never shown anything but indifference to the Robotech License. The pruposefulness you acredit to the "different" Robotech goes completely counter to how HG has ever treated the franchise.

TPTB? Pffft. No, I'm not giving HG any credit. You don't seem to be reading what I'm writting.

Post-cartoon, HG was not involved in the creative side of Robotech; they just handed out the licenses. The various licensees (McKinney, Palladium, and the various writer/artist teams in the various comic book companies) were the ones who were on the creative side of new Robotech product. THEY knew they were creating different versions of Robotech. They knew.

The McKinney team didn't want to write Robotech:the tv series:the novel. So they didn't. Knowing what the source material was, they intentionally wrote what they wrote.

The RPG fleshed out and added to the bare bones they were handed; they made locations, characters, timelines, wars, factions, etc. They didn't do it by accident, they did it to make the property a viable long-running RPG so they could keep making money on the property they licensed.

And the comics...well, they were often all over the place, weren't they? But to say they did it by accident doesn't really jive. It's silly. They accidentally added characters and events in between episodes? In the gaps in the timeline? And it is known the Waltrips intentionally diverged from being a simple adaptation of the Sentinels novels to add their pieces to the lore. They were the creative team in charge of Sentinels comics for Robotech; why shouldn't they?

I've read the Sentinels Comics. Although the comics were incomplete, after having reread the Sentinels novels, they were actually fairly close in resemblance. The comics depicting the Malcontent Uprisings etc were also fairly close in resemblance to Zentraedi Rebellion as well. (reread both last summer)

They were similar. But they were also intentionally different. They didn't accidentally almost write the same events. That's a ridiculous scenario. Each creative team did the same events, then added or took away what they wished, using the creative freedom they were allowed by HG's apathy. It is ubiquitous in adaptations, especially from one media format to another.

That's what I'm saying. Why wouldn't or shouldn't the licensees have created different versions of Robotech? It happens all the time in media franchises. What was missing was HG pointing out that the different versions were...um...different. Officially. I fail to see how any of that requires pretending there aren't several different versions of Robotech, and have been for almost all of Robotech's existence.

[Seto Kaiba]

The various licensees (McKinney, Palladium, and the various writer/artist teams in the various comic book companies) were the ones who were on the creative side of new Robotech product. THEY knew they were creating different versions of Robotech. They knew.

They really didn't, you know.

Just listen to Kevin's interview about how the 1st Edition RPG was put together on Space Station Liberty. Nowhere in there is the suggestion that they knew they were creating different versions of Robotech, or that they'd set out to do so. The differences are accidental, unintentional. They couldn't get the information they needed from Harmony Gold, so they did their best to approximate it using patient observation of the series (via home video recordings of the broadcast) and what OSM art books they could get their hands on. They did due diligence and then some to try and get their result as close to the series as they could.

There was no intent to create a new version of Robotech. Quite the opposite, in fact. The differences are just the result of them missing the mark due to incomplete information and inconsistencies in the show itself.

The same is almost certainly true for the comics, most of which appear to have been written by authors who had only the vaguest notion of what the show was even about. There're quite a few Robotech comics that are clearly a succession of attempts to rip off whatever anime happened to be buzzworthy at the time. To suggest there was the grand, hidden agenda of creating their own version of Robotech falls so flat it's hilarious. The differences are, in large measure, the result of lazy writers who either weren't familiar with the show, or were stealing their material from other sources to make a quick buck. The sheer amount of tracing that goes on is proof enough of that.

That's what I'm saying. Why wouldn't or shouldn't the licensees have created different versions of Robotech? It happens all the time in media franchises.

Because they weren't authorized to. The difference between what happened there and what happens when different versions are intentionally created is that there's an orchestrating intent when it's done on purpose. That intent just isn't there in the "anything for a buck" era of Robotech's history. If there WAS a concerted effort to make their own version of Robotech, there wouldn't be so much inconsistency between titles published at the same time by the same company.

I fail to see how any of that requires pretending there aren't several different versions of Robotech, and have been for almost all of Robotech's existence.

Oh, there's no pretending required... there aren't multiple, different versions of Robotech. There is the officially recognized Robotech, the Robotech-in-name-only stuff like the McKinney novels, and the inconsistent mess left by licensees who, for various reasons, missed the mark wildly.

[Sgt Anjay]

The various licensees (McKinney, Palladium, and the various writer/artist teams in the various comic book companies) were the ones who were on the creative side of new Robotech product. THEY knew they were creating different versions of Robotech. They knew.

They really didn't, you know.

Yes. They did.

AT MOST, you can say the RPG wasn't trying to contradict the original tv series, only add to what was there, and that's a fair assessment. The fact is, at the end of the day, they added a whole heck of a lot. But if you're trying to say that Palladium exists in a box and were completely unaware of, say, the novels and comics and the fact that what they were writing was all different, that's ridiculous. The fact that it was due to HG's apathy is besides the point to them knowing they were going their own way, and that they were allowed to.

McKinney clearly knew they weren't writing Robotech:the tv series:the novels. They had meetings with Macek right there at the beginning; in the Space Station Liberty interviews with James Luceno didn't it come out that some of the changes were direct from or encouraged by Macek? Regardless, they wrote the novels their way. From the beginning the goal was to create Robotech:the novels, distinct from the tv series, and that is indeed what they did. Say whatever you like about them, recount whatever criticisms you wish, but when all was said and done, they published 21 books and the only complete version of Robotech there is. It wasn't by accident.

The same is almost certainly true for the comics, most of which appear to have been written by authors who had only the vaguest notion of what the show was even about. There're quite a few Robotech comics that are clearly a succession of attempts to rip off whatever anime happened to be buzzworthy at the time. To suggest there was the grand, hidden agenda of creating their own version of Robotech falls so flat it's hilarious. The differences are, in large measure, the result of lazy writers who either weren't familiar with the show, or were stealing their material from other sources to make a quick buck. The sheer amount of tracing that goes on is proof enough of that.

This would be a joke, if it wasn't for all the ugliness inherent. Since lumping all the comics together as if they were all a singular work is ludicrous, and your accuracy vis-a-vis the comics is suspect after your clearly skewed view of the Invid War: Aftermath series, its performance, the initial story-arc, the art, and how it ended, well...all I'll say here is that a number of Robotech comic book series were indeed successful when actually evaluated fairly, but more to the point were clearly aware they were engaging in retcon-type stories at the very least. One fan-fave series went so far as to call itself an alternate universe, and that series stopped short because the creative team pulled out and not any other reason. That actually happened to several Robotech series.

That's what I'm saying. Why wouldn't or shouldn't the licensees have created different versions of Robotech? It happens all the time in media franchises.

Because they weren't authorized to.

That statement is contradicted not least by Macek's involvement in the beginning of the novels. They were clearly intended from GO to be their own thing. The other creative teams with the license were given carte blanche, and intentionally used that freedom to go their own way. Yes, they had that freedom because of HG's apathy, but that doesn't negate it, it just explains it.

I fail to see how any of that requires pretending there aren't several different versions of Robotech, and have been for almost all of Robotech's existence.

Oh, there's no pretending required... there aren't multiple, different versions of Robotech. There is the officially recognized Robotech,

Point of order, the current version of Robotech is different in a number of ways from the original tv series; to start, there's the retconning of the Battle of Reflex Point, and it goes from there. It is impossible to say that there is only one version of Robotech based on that alone!

the Robotech-in-name-only stuff like the McKinney novels

Except the novels were intentinoally created with tacit approval of the original creative director of Robotech to be a different version of Robotech, so this point of view does not line up with reality.

the inconsistent mess left by licensees who, for various reasons, missed the mark wildly.

There is indeed plenty of this stuff out there. You're not going to catch me saying otherwise. But trying to paint it all as this is unfair to some really good stuff by creative teams authorized to create material and who helped keep Robotech going on long past the tv series' end.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes. They did.

Sorry, but the people actually involved have indicated otherwise. Your stringent denial will not alter the facts. They did not set out to make a "different version" of Robotech, nor, honestly, did they succeed in doing so. That the unfortunate consequence of lacking support meant that they got details wrong doesn't suddenly make something into some kind of alternate universe... it just means they made mistakes. Some licensees just did a bad job of it, and the bad job did doesn't magically become an alternate universe just because they didn't get it right. In order to actually be a different version, they have to have set out to make a different version of the story with the blessings of their property owner. Otherwise, it's just a screw-up. By Harmony Gold's own admission, they weren't involved with the creation of any of this material, so they definitely didn't approve of this stuff.

To be frank, the matter is actually quite immaterial... that stuff is not real Robotech as far as any kind of official standing is concerned.

Point of order, the current version of Robotech is different in a number of ways from the original tv series; to start, there's the retconning of the Battle of Reflex Point, and it goes from there. It is impossible to say that there is only one version of Robotech based on that alone!

Strictly speaking, that's not accurate. Prior to the establishment of the "current" version of Robotech, there was no "version" of Robotech at all. There was the series, and that was essentially it. There was no continuity, just reams of functionally unrelated material being produced to try and wring a few more bucks out of a failed TV show. In practice, the first and only version of Robotech is the "current" version. It's the only "version" of the series that has a defined continuity and canon, built upon the Robotech television series by the show's creative staff.

To borrow your term, there is not "One Canon to rule them all"... there has only ever been one canon. The point I'm making is that the licensed comics and whatnot from the "anything for a buck" era are not multiple continuities. Nor, frankly, are they different versions of Robotech. There was not a concrete version of the Robotech story that they could be different from until a canon and continuity were established in 2001. It may not seem fair to the stuff you enjoyed as a youth, and believe it or not I sympathize, but that's the truth of it. Were it not for the way they'd been officially exiled, they'd be hovering somewhere between "depreciated canon" and fan-fiction.

Except the novels were intentinoally created with tacit approval of the original creative director of Robotech to be a different version of Robotech, so this point of view does not line up with reality.

I'm afraid you're contradicting yourself here... aren't you the one who argues that Carl Macek is not to blame for all of the failures of Robotech over the years because he wasn't actually attached to the franchise anymore. If that's true, then Carl Macek's approval, tacet or otherwise, is meaningless with regard to the status of the novels as he has no such authority to approve anything.

(Besides, you'd have a hard time arguing that the McKinney novels are really Robotech at all considering their contents... they're almost C.S. Goto-ish in the thoroughness with which they miss the mark.)

[rtsurfer]

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=22

renegadeleader asks: What is your opinion of the Robotech books, and what do you think of the book, "End of The Circle" and the liberties he took with some of the characters?

Carl Macek says: The concepts dealt with in the comics and novels are "inspired" by the plots drafted for Robotech and the ongoing storylines evolved by Harmony Gold - they incorporate some of the ideas and coin new concepts and directions for characters. I think it is all part of the ongoing Robotech Universe. Not exactly what I would have come up with, but still viable.


Zor Derelda asks: Did you and McKinney have any meetings or discussions about where and what the books should go and contain, or did he just have carte blanche?

Carl Macek says: There were intense meetings and correspondence. The concept was to create a world that would be as viable in book form as it was as a television series. Things change for this very reason - we all wanted the books to be as good as they could be - the only way that can be done is to give the writer the ability to create and distill.

[Sgt Anjay]

Yes. They did.

Sorry, but the people actually involved have indicated otherwise. Your stringent denial will not alter the facts. They did not set out to make a "different version" of Robotech, nor, honestly, did they succeed in doing so.

The interviews with Carl Macek as posted by rtsurfer above, and James Luceno on the Space Station Liberty podcast contradict your stringent denial of reality as regards the novels. That the comics and RPG were aware of the novels and yet did things different is a foregone conclusion, and the Sentinels comics veered first towards then away from synchronicity with the novels in clear intentional shifts in creative direction. As Johnathan Switzer posted on his blog covering the Sentinels comics:

Early on the story remained quite faithful to the original TV scripts, a fact that outsiders can tell only because Eternity published two books containing the first eight scripts in 1991 & 1992, but also included all-new ideas from Mason and Ulm. However, by the beginning of Sentinels Book II in mid-1990, the comic book series had veered more towards the course of the novels -- whether this was due to a lack of access to the remainder of the original TV series material, a desire to present a unified Sentinels front, or due to fan demand, nobody's ever said. Still, as the story progressed all-new elements still slipped in, including an entire new subplot revolving around an underground movement within the REF, featuring brand-new characters, at the start of Sentinels Book III in mid-1993.

Following the closure of Malibu's Eternity imprint in late 1993 and the ROBOTECH comic book license's move to small publisher Academy Comics, even more new, original ideas from the minds of the comic book writers -- now the Waltrips, having taken over those chores shortly before the move -- started to appear in the storyline, freshening up the then six year-old epic.

By Harmony Gold's own admission, they weren't involved with the creation of any of this material, so they definitely didn't approve of this stuff.

They weren't involved in the creation of the material because they didn't have nor want a creative team of their own involved. Instead, they licensed the rights to create Robotech material out, giving the creative teams of McKinney, Palladium, and the several comic companies the right to create new Robotech materials. That's pretty obvious since the licensees officially acquired the license McKinney and the RPG were involved early enough that they got material direct from HG and input from Carl Macek; that's pretty much as official as an endorsement gets. Comico was, as well, though future holders of the comics license obviously weren't, though Eternity at least had Sentinels scripts, so there's that.

Harmony Gold had exactly as much creative control as they wanted. Blaming the licensees for HG's apathy is rather poor form and obscures the truth of the situation.

Point of order, the current version of Robotech is different in a number of ways from the original tv series; to start, there's the retconning of the Battle of Reflex Point, and it goes from there. It is impossible to say that there is only one version of Robotech based on that alone!

Strictly speaking, that's not accurate. Prior to the establishment of the "current" version of Robotech, there was no "version" of Robotech at all.

This is so far beyond the pale I dont even know what to do with it. The only version of Robotech is Tommy Yune's version of Robotech.

Yeah, I'm done.

[Seto Kaiba]

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=22

While I don't mean to disrespect you for your well-intentioned contribution, nothing Carl says in that interview (or any other from ~2000 on) can be taken seriously. He told quite a few whoppers in that particular interview, my friend. I blame HG, who had reduced him to a sock puppet by then.

The interviews with Carl Macek as posted by rtsurfer above, and James Luceno on the Space Station Liberty podcast contradict your stringent denial of reality as regards the novels.

One day, I'll persuade you to read my posts carefully before you reply. I'll have to dole out fewer verbal cloutings that way. I've already addressed the reliability (or rather, lack thereof) of Carl's Robotech.com interview. In a moment, I'll explain why the content of that Space Station Liberty podcast with Luceno doesn't mean quite what you think it does.

They weren't involved in the creation of the material because they didn't have nor want a creative team of their own involved.

Which is, amusingly enough, why that material is not real Robotech under both Harmony Gold's definition and the conventionally accepted industry definition of official works. The word I was looking for, but couldn't think of when I wrote my last reply was "doujinshi". That's the general classification that material would/should fall under. It's not a different "version" of Robotech, per se, or even official material. Simply being inconsistent with the source isn't enough to make a new version of the story, it's just poor quality at work.

To give a related example, let us briefly consider the standing of Palladium's Macross II role-playing game and/or Viz Media's Macross II: the Micron Conspiracy comic. Palladium got the license to make a new game based on the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA back in the early 90's. Like the Robotech RPG before it, they tried to do something as close to the show as possible and missed the mark with disquieting thoroughness. Does their failure of research make the RPG a different, legitimate version of the story? No. It's just a screw-up. The same goes for the "Micron Conspiracy" comic, a questionable "original" comic based on the Macross II OVA and done by Viz, who'd managed to miss the entire setting of the series every bit as hard as the Robotech comics of the same period... and that didn't make it a legitimate new version either. It's just a mess. (Officially, like the Robotech comics, novels, etc., neither of those things are considered official Macross merch.) This is not an uncommon approach when it comes to the anime industry... in fact, it would be downright shocking if Harmony Gold HAD acknowledged the old, we-weren't-paying-attention material as legitimate Robotech.

Harmony Gold had exactly as much creative control as they wanted. Blaming the licensees for HG's apathy is rather poor form and obscures the truth of the situation.

That's true, after a fashion... Harmony Gold DID have as much creative control as they wanted. To them, the whole Robotech franchise was dead. They let licensees slap the Robotech name on whatever they were making, with no intention of ever treating that material as part of Robotech. Once they decided that the franchise may have been salvageable after all, they started exerting creative control and building upon the series, classifying all of what came before exactly the way they should... as not really being Robotech. Why not? Because they were made by licensees with pretty much no official involvement from Harmony Gold and no creative oversight. Even if it was made with permission, that stuff is still just doujinshi.

This is so far beyond the pale I dont even know what to do with it. The only version of Robotech is Tommy Yune's version of Robotech.

Honestly, I'm kind of baffled that you find that hard to accept. "Tommy's" Robotech is the only continuity that's ever been established for Robotech. Prior to that, there wasn't any such thing as a version of Robotech... Carl Macek couldn't be arsed to get his act together and actually figure out how anything fit together, leaving behind only a cesspit of conflicting material and a heap of failures when the creative directorship passed to Tommy, who got the unenviable task of trying to turn it all into a coherent Robotech continuity. Essentially, it fell to Tommy and company to put together the first version of Robotech from the building blocks left by the various failures that'd occurred on and off Carl's watch.

[rtsurfer]

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=22

While I don't mean to disrespect you for your well-intentioned contribution, nothing Carl says in that interview (or any other from ~2000 on) can be taken seriously. He told quite a few whoppers in that particular interview, my friend. I blame HG, who had reduced him to a sock puppet by then.

Todd Hill's interview with Carl Macek to help promote Robocon 10, published in the Aug 1995 Academy comics:
http://www.nabiki.com/sstalker/carl.asp

[An introduction and a new soundtrack cd.]

We started talking about "Robotech II: The Sentinels." I told him about the many debates that people would get into regarding what is officially part of the storyline, and what wasn't. Whenever inconsistencies crop up in the storyline or timeline of Robotech from any of the varied works of Robotech and The Sentinels, people have always deferred to the Macek version of the storyline as 'canon' (primarily the TV series for anything concerning content in the original 85 episodes, and what was outlined in Robotech Art III and the Sentinels OVA for anything regarding Sentinels content).

In a conversation that I had with representatives at Harmony Gold following this interview, they bolstered this position by stating that should there be a move to complete the Sentinels series, it would be done under the storyline as given by Carl Macek.

Q: Is there a completed and detailed set of your version of the storyline of the Sentinels?

A: Yes, I have over 1000 pages of material for the Sentinels series alone. This includes a complete synopsis of the series (most of which is detailed in the Robotech Art III graphic novel) as well as a thorough rundown of every episode of the series.

[His Sent Scrapbook, changed Sent designs, complete Sent if ask, and Untold Story.]

Q: Ironically, Jack McKinney's book the THE MASTER'S GAMBIT (#20) chronicles some of the material that is covered in The Untold Story. That leads me to my next question; In what way do you feel that the McKinney series has contibuted to Robotech?

A: I feel that the McKinney novelizations of Robotech have helped to expand the realm of Robotech, and I appreciate what the books have done for Robotech. While it's true that I wasn't available for the authors to pick my brain for the entire time they were writing these books, they did consult with me in the beginning for two weeks, and occasionally after that. In fact, minor inconsistancies not withstanding, the novels, comic books, and RPGs are all representative of Robotech. I don't discount the validity of any of these works. Also, each work has its own place within the overall realm of Robotech.

[Fan fiction.]

Q: Continuity has been an issue that plagues fans of Robotech endlessly. People have been trying to establish a timeline and a storyline synopsis that will act as the 'canon' backbone of the whole Robotech saga. This is particularly true of fan fiction writers, who love the series and they want to make sure that they are not crossing the line of continuity when they write their stories. We already know about your collection of material on the Sentinels, but do you have some sort of 'master plan' for Robotech on paper?

A: Well, the only complete plan for Robotech is in my head. It would take too long for me to give more than a cursory explanation of it here. As far as the debate over what is 'canon' in Robotech goes; all of the material out there for Robotech should be considered valid, because it is all a part of Robotech. An example from my own work is in the Art book for the Sentinels. The events detailed in "Robotech Art III" were far away from what I had actually planned for Robotech at the time. While the Sentinels do fall within the realm of Robotech, the series itself was more animation-intensive than plot-intensive. In essence, no one should look at my contibutions alone as "THE" Robotech.

Q: Would you be against someone establishing standards for the plotline and timeline of Robotech?

A: Not really.

[Robotech III: Odyssey, ExoSquad, then wrapping up the interview.]

[Sgt Anjay]

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=22

While I don't mean to disrespect you for your well-intentioned contribution, nothing Carl says in that interview (or any other from ~2000 on) can be taken seriously.

And so he posts an interview from the 90’s corroborating the later one. Where are your quotes? Where are your references? Should I take what Carl says more or less seriously that the blatantly biased, entirely insulting, and most importantly factually erroneous take you had on Invid War:Aftermath?

When you make yourself the entirety of your argument, your credibility has the right to be questioned. I like hashing things out with other fanboys as much as the next guy, but I’m not taking the word of a fellow fanboy over the words of the professionals involved simply because they have the temerity to say I should.

The interviews with Carl Macek as posted by rtsurfer above, and James Luceno on the Space Station Liberty podcast contradict your stringent denial of reality as regards the novels.

One day, I'll persuade you to read my posts carefully before you reply. I'll have to dole out fewer verbal cloutings that way.

Petty posturing. Thanks for escalating the hostility level. Care to share examples of these “verbal cloutings”?

And by the by, I’ll note ”verbal“ has had the meaning “spoken” since the late 16th century and is thus synonymous with oral, i.e. a VERBAL contract is one that is spoken and not written. I’m pretty sure we have never been verbal.

I've already addressed the reliability (or rather, lack thereof) of Carl's Robotech.com interview.

No you haven’t. All you did was say we should believe you instead, without ever actually posting anything in the way of proof that this is the case. And, of course, rtsurfer’s response shows that the whole “from ~2000” doesn’t wash, even if we didn’t already know that Luceno says essentially the same story as regards the novels when he was interviewed, thus corroborating Macek’s statements.

The word I was looking for, but couldn't think of when I wrote my last reply was "doujinshi". That's the general classification that material would/should fall under.

Doujinshi is self-published material...at least, as that term is defined by the Japanese. None of the Robotech material we’re talking about qualifies. If we’re talking about the American fanboy usage of the word doujinshi, which is essentially fan-fic type stuff published by fans, product put out by companies that are officially licensed still doesn’t qualify.

Simply being inconsistent with the source isn't enough to make a new version of the story, it's just poor quality at work.

You’re absolutely correct. But it does make it a new version when the authors are not only given permission, but specifically told to distill and adapt the story as necessary to fit a different medium…which is exactly what took place with the novels. It is very clear from the very beginning that the Robotech novels were never intended nor were they trying to be Robotech:the tv series:the novels. They started being written in 1986, for goodness sakes, when the tv series was still a going concern, and they included Macek while he was still employed as creative director in the planning for them!

Now, the first few RPG books (1-5, Macross through Invid Invasion) were intended to a certain extent to be Robotech:the tv series:the RPG. And they did make quite a few errors, some more egregious than others. But no, that isn’t what makes the RPG a version of Robotech. What does, you see, is that the RPG didn’t stop at books 1-5, which covered all the Robotech released by HG. Nor were they ever required to stop at book 5; the owners of Robotech allowed Palladium’s writers and artist to write and draw new Robotech material, of their own volition. This let them add to and expand on the material created by HG with locations, maps, characters, plots, events, wars, mecha. The 1st Ed RPG version of Robotech is the only one with with General Zhu, the A.I. Fac Sat, Sonada Kenichi (heh), Micronian Power Armor, the Red Sea Fort, the Super Logan, and so on. Not every RPG adaptation is allowed to do that; it isn’t some sort of default. They had to have been specifically allowed by the owners of Robotech. And, having been allowed to do so, they did. How you can fault Palladium for it is beyond me.

The three comic books series from Comico were clearly supposed to be Robotech:the tv series:the comic book, and it shows. “As seen on TV” right there on the covers and everything. The one thing they put out that doesn’t fit into that milieu was the Graphic Novel…which, rather than being an adaptation, was written using ideas and plot elements handed to them by the creative director of Robotech, also during the period when the tv series was still a going concern. Which is pretty obvious, since those same ideas and plot elements were handed to McKinney, who wrote them into a prologue to fit the novels.

Later publishers of Robotech comic books clearly weren’t intending to merely be Robotech:the tv series:the comic book. From the start, they had other stories to tell. Did they then go off and print them themselves without official sanction like, y’know, making doujinshi? No, they acquired the license from the owners and told those stories…with, admittedly, often mixed results.

HG was no comic book company, and had no means to publish comic books themselves. They were no book publishers, and had no means to publish novels themselves. They certainly weren’t an RPG company. So they gave the ability to create those products on their behalf to other companies. What they didn’t do was force those companies to stick to the material HG itself put out, nor to the material that any one of the other licensees put out. Instead, per Macek in multiple interviews, and corroborated by Luceno, HG specifically wanted a different version of Robotech for the novels, and had no issue with other mediums adapting their own versions of Robotech. It didn’t happen because of shoddy licensees; it was HG who set that process in motion. You can debate the merits of that decision; you cannot debate that that decision by the owners of Robotech was made, whether through action or inaction.

Of course, HG, the owners, aren’t required to follow any of these different versions; they are perfectly within their rights to forge their own. Paramount certainly didn’t stress over Star Trek:TAS. That doesn’t make TAS doujinshi, either. And, fittingly enough to Robotech’s situation, bits of TAS have crept into more current Trek lore. But saying there were no versions of Robotech before The Shadow Chronicles is like saying there were no versions of Star Trek before The Motion Picture.

You can’t retcon reality just because you don’t like your fictional continuity messy. That decade and a half happened. The tv series was the first version of Robotech, and others have followed. Other, older versions of Robotech did indeed exist, even if they aren’t Offical Harmony Gold Corporate Fiat Robotech.