How does a Dominator Star Fortress stack up against RT/M2?
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:39 am
Now the Dominators in the 3G setting are presented as packing the most devastating warship-class in the setting. It has weapons that out range and out damage anything the 3G powers can deploy, and the ship size and armament quantity is also nothing to dismiss out right. However, how does the Dominator's Star Fortress actually stack up against former PB Licensed Properties of Robotech and Macross 2? For clarity I am going to look at both Editions of the Robotech RPG under Palladium, all settings are going to be considered in RAW stat format.
Now to determine damage, I am going to assume an average roll on a die (1d6=3.5, 1d4=2.5, etc). For the BFGs that destroy everything in their path, I am using the damage for the beam striking a planet for Robotech/Macross2 rather than fired out into open space (for uniformity, and the DSF is certainly "moon-sized", which for game purposes IMHO would put it into Planet size for effects purposes), and the DSF's cannon's firing at separate targets. I am also going to ignore firing arcs for simplicity but will restrict all guns to the same range category (which RT/Macross can match). No one will be allowed to close the gap to bring additional guns to bear.
Damage is also for the first melee of combat (15 seconds). Rate of Fire is being enforced. The only issue is if BFGs that can fire only 1per 8minutes might prevent the firing of other weapons which might be enforced in actual game play (even as a house rule), though here I am not. If you don't agree with this, then extend the combat duration to two melees, one for all the BFGs and one for the other guns, though here some vessels in the mix might not have the BFG restriction and could then in theory provide fire for x2 melees instead of the calculated x1 melee that is being presented here.
Macross 2 Licenced Setting
There are 3 categories of ships to consider, human built UN Spacy Vessels (including the SDF-1), UN Spacy converted Zentran Vessels, and Marduk Vessels.
Human Built UN Spacy Vessels
We can safely ignore all the human origin vessels. None of them have a weapon that matches or exceeds the range of a Dominator Star Fortress gun battery. They basically fall into the same range gap as the Phase World Ships.
UN Spacy Converted Zentran Vessels
The standardized Heavy Particle Beam Weapon on 3 of the 5 class of ships has a damage out put that would only require 4 of these ships to be present to destroy a DSF.
Now if a Dominator is allowed to return fire (as in a simultaneous action or it wins Initiative), they you will need enough ships to soak the ~38,000,000 MDC it will unleash. Now you could just say they have x113 Zentran Flagship-class vessels to employ, but that seems a bit unlikely. Now the Command Ship is a bit wonky in terms of MDC due to the vessel separating, which leaves us with the Destroyer Class. The end result is that a Force of x1 Zentran Flagship and x419 Zentran Destroyers (+4 if you don't have the Flagship) would have sufficient MDC to leave at least one working ship. Now if you want to get technical, you could trade ship types to reduce the numbers by including Carrier-Class vessels as they have more MDC than a Destroyer, but less than a Flagship, which means... x1 Flagship and x3 Destroyers could be supported by x187 Carriers to achieve the same result, which seems more believable than sending in x113 Flagships together alone. If you include the Scout class to act as a meat shield you would need x10 Scouts for every Carrier you replace.
It should also be noted, those "meat shield" ships can contribute damage to. For instance, those x187 carriers, even though they lack a HPBW would have enough collective firepower in their retractable turrets and mega-lasers to exceed the damage output of a DSF, so they don't even need the Flaghship or destroyers for firepower.
Marduk Vessels
As with the UN Spacy Converted Zentran Vessels, you only need 4 ships that mount the Heavy Particle Beam weapon. The one exception is the Marduk Base/Fortress, if it fires its x3 (yes) Heavy Particle Beam Weapons, along with the other x4,600 other beam weapons at its disposal, it could destroy a DSF with plenty to spare (inflicting ~34 Million MDC to a 23 Million MDC structure).
Now if a Dominator is allowed to return fire (as a simultaneous action or it wins Initiative), then you will need enough ships to soak the ~38,000,000 MDC it will unleash. And A Marduk Base/Fortress just can't alone.
As with the UN Converted Zentran vessels the Marduk ships you would only need x1 Flagship, x3 Destroyers, with support from x178 Battleships. And as with the UN Spacy, those Battleships can contribute fire (not enough to destroy it on their own alone, but...).
Robotech FIRST EDITION Licensed Setting
Robotech Factions can be broken down into: Zentreadi, Robotech Master, Invid, and Human for all 3 generations.
Human Vessels
The SDF-1 and ARMD of the RDF, along with the Southern Cross Shuttles can not match the weapons range of a DSF. The REF Garfish also lacks such a weapon, leaving only the SDF-3 and the Ikazuchi-class. While the SDF-3 does have a pair of Reflex Cannons (Heavy Particle Beam Weapon) at its disposal, they do not have the required range requiring the SDF-3 to use lower power weapons (the SDF-3 is also a one-of-kind ship in the fleet). This means that the SDF-3 would need the support of ~2,190x Ikazuchi-class ships to destroy a DSF, which would also give it enough MDC that there would be multiple survivors if a DSF could attack them.
One additional note, the SDF-3 and the Ikazuchi both have protective force fields which I did not consider in terms of MDC (it effectively doubles the MDC on the Ikazuchi and triples the MDC on the SDF-3), but since their greatest drawback is damage out put it really only changes the number of ships that would survive.
Zentreadi Vessels
Just before the time of its destruction in Robotech, the Zentreadi Armada numbered over 5.5 million warships. That means if every Zentreadi ship available at the time appeared and could inflict only ~5 points of damage to the DSF, the DSF would be destroyed. And at best the DSF could only take out 5,103 ships (1 for each emplacement), though that is being generous and assuming each emplacement could takeout a Zentreadi ship. And yes the last battle of the Zentreadi Armada DID see 5.5million warships assembled so it is something the Zentreadi have been demonstrated to do.
The Zentreadi Vessels also use standardized weapons like in the Macross 2 line with similar performance (in most cases identical between the two lines), even their MDC (for the main body of the ship) is the same (exception was the Command Ship, RT is lower). The main difference is in the number of Retractable Laser Turrets they have between the two lines. That means you only need 4 ships with the Heavy Particle Beam (Reflex) Cannon, but you will still need additional ships if the DSF can return fire, at minimum x187 Landing Ships plus x3 Destroyers and x1 Flagship.
Robotech Master Vessels
The only Robotech Master Capital Ship to be considered in the 1E of the game was the Cityship/Mothership. It mounts an Electro-magnetic Fission Beam that is the equivalent of x2 (yes x2) Heavy Particle Beam/Reflex Cannons. That means you only need x2 of the ships to destroy a DSF. Now if the DSF can return fire you'd need x64 Cityships to soak the DSF's damage output.
4 more points on this vessel:
1. in terms of damage output this is the most powerful alien vessel in the setting as stated (only exceeded by the SDF-3 overall).
2. the ship does have a force field for protection, but that was not considered here.
3. if the EMFB is unavailable, you would need x177 of these vessels for enough damage output to destroy a DSF.
4. the ship as stated in the 1E RPG has numerous restrictions on it, this assumes any ship in this class is fully fueled and operational
Invid Vessels
The Invid have only 3 means of interstellar travel, The Troop Carrier, the All-Terrain Invid Assault Carrier, and an ability by the Regent/Regiss that in the show was used to destroy multiple vessel-sized objects simultaneously that got in the way. The Troop carrier is unarmed, and I am not going to consider the Regent/Regiss ability since it lacks stats for this mode of use in the RPG.
Now in order to just destroy a DSF it would require 4,600x All Terrain Invid Assault Carriers, which would also give it more than enough MDC to weather the damage output of a DSF (by a factor of 5). There is just a slight problem, per the book the available fleet is only 200 ships strong at best.
Robotech SECOND EDITION Licensed Setting
Unfortunately, the SECOND EDITION of the Robotech license nerfed ship weapons as compared to FIRST EDITION for all ships. The greater FIRST EDITION ranges are more in line with what the show established (Zentreadi ships firing from Lunar Orbit at Earth's surface).
Technically the SDF-4's Sycnro-cannons do have the range but will require multiple ships of this class to fire and then there is the handling the DSF damage output. The SDF-4 is IINM a one-off-design, and the only other ship that might have similar capabilities is the SDF-3 (also a one-off-design), but AFAIK the SDF-3 hasn't been covered. As such there really isn't anything to consider here IMHO.
Now to determine damage, I am going to assume an average roll on a die (1d6=3.5, 1d4=2.5, etc). For the BFGs that destroy everything in their path, I am using the damage for the beam striking a planet for Robotech/Macross2 rather than fired out into open space (for uniformity, and the DSF is certainly "moon-sized", which for game purposes IMHO would put it into Planet size for effects purposes), and the DSF's cannon's firing at separate targets. I am also going to ignore firing arcs for simplicity but will restrict all guns to the same range category (which RT/Macross can match). No one will be allowed to close the gap to bring additional guns to bear.
Damage is also for the first melee of combat (15 seconds). Rate of Fire is being enforced. The only issue is if BFGs that can fire only 1per 8minutes might prevent the firing of other weapons which might be enforced in actual game play (even as a house rule), though here I am not. If you don't agree with this, then extend the combat duration to two melees, one for all the BFGs and one for the other guns, though here some vessels in the mix might not have the BFG restriction and could then in theory provide fire for x2 melees instead of the calculated x1 melee that is being presented here.
Macross 2 Licenced Setting
There are 3 categories of ships to consider, human built UN Spacy Vessels (including the SDF-1), UN Spacy converted Zentran Vessels, and Marduk Vessels.
Human Built UN Spacy Vessels
We can safely ignore all the human origin vessels. None of them have a weapon that matches or exceeds the range of a Dominator Star Fortress gun battery. They basically fall into the same range gap as the Phase World Ships.
UN Spacy Converted Zentran Vessels
The standardized Heavy Particle Beam Weapon on 3 of the 5 class of ships has a damage out put that would only require 4 of these ships to be present to destroy a DSF.
Now if a Dominator is allowed to return fire (as in a simultaneous action or it wins Initiative), they you will need enough ships to soak the ~38,000,000 MDC it will unleash. Now you could just say they have x113 Zentran Flagship-class vessels to employ, but that seems a bit unlikely. Now the Command Ship is a bit wonky in terms of MDC due to the vessel separating, which leaves us with the Destroyer Class. The end result is that a Force of x1 Zentran Flagship and x419 Zentran Destroyers (+4 if you don't have the Flagship) would have sufficient MDC to leave at least one working ship. Now if you want to get technical, you could trade ship types to reduce the numbers by including Carrier-Class vessels as they have more MDC than a Destroyer, but less than a Flagship, which means... x1 Flagship and x3 Destroyers could be supported by x187 Carriers to achieve the same result, which seems more believable than sending in x113 Flagships together alone. If you include the Scout class to act as a meat shield you would need x10 Scouts for every Carrier you replace.
It should also be noted, those "meat shield" ships can contribute damage to. For instance, those x187 carriers, even though they lack a HPBW would have enough collective firepower in their retractable turrets and mega-lasers to exceed the damage output of a DSF, so they don't even need the Flaghship or destroyers for firepower.
Marduk Vessels
As with the UN Spacy Converted Zentran Vessels, you only need 4 ships that mount the Heavy Particle Beam weapon. The one exception is the Marduk Base/Fortress, if it fires its x3 (yes) Heavy Particle Beam Weapons, along with the other x4,600 other beam weapons at its disposal, it could destroy a DSF with plenty to spare (inflicting ~34 Million MDC to a 23 Million MDC structure).
Now if a Dominator is allowed to return fire (as a simultaneous action or it wins Initiative), then you will need enough ships to soak the ~38,000,000 MDC it will unleash. And A Marduk Base/Fortress just can't alone.
As with the UN Converted Zentran vessels the Marduk ships you would only need x1 Flagship, x3 Destroyers, with support from x178 Battleships. And as with the UN Spacy, those Battleships can contribute fire (not enough to destroy it on their own alone, but...).
Robotech FIRST EDITION Licensed Setting
Robotech Factions can be broken down into: Zentreadi, Robotech Master, Invid, and Human for all 3 generations.
Human Vessels
The SDF-1 and ARMD of the RDF, along with the Southern Cross Shuttles can not match the weapons range of a DSF. The REF Garfish also lacks such a weapon, leaving only the SDF-3 and the Ikazuchi-class. While the SDF-3 does have a pair of Reflex Cannons (Heavy Particle Beam Weapon) at its disposal, they do not have the required range requiring the SDF-3 to use lower power weapons (the SDF-3 is also a one-of-kind ship in the fleet). This means that the SDF-3 would need the support of ~2,190x Ikazuchi-class ships to destroy a DSF, which would also give it enough MDC that there would be multiple survivors if a DSF could attack them.
One additional note, the SDF-3 and the Ikazuchi both have protective force fields which I did not consider in terms of MDC (it effectively doubles the MDC on the Ikazuchi and triples the MDC on the SDF-3), but since their greatest drawback is damage out put it really only changes the number of ships that would survive.
Zentreadi Vessels
Just before the time of its destruction in Robotech, the Zentreadi Armada numbered over 5.5 million warships. That means if every Zentreadi ship available at the time appeared and could inflict only ~5 points of damage to the DSF, the DSF would be destroyed. And at best the DSF could only take out 5,103 ships (1 for each emplacement), though that is being generous and assuming each emplacement could takeout a Zentreadi ship. And yes the last battle of the Zentreadi Armada DID see 5.5million warships assembled so it is something the Zentreadi have been demonstrated to do.
The Zentreadi Vessels also use standardized weapons like in the Macross 2 line with similar performance (in most cases identical between the two lines), even their MDC (for the main body of the ship) is the same (exception was the Command Ship, RT is lower). The main difference is in the number of Retractable Laser Turrets they have between the two lines. That means you only need 4 ships with the Heavy Particle Beam (Reflex) Cannon, but you will still need additional ships if the DSF can return fire, at minimum x187 Landing Ships plus x3 Destroyers and x1 Flagship.
Robotech Master Vessels
The only Robotech Master Capital Ship to be considered in the 1E of the game was the Cityship/Mothership. It mounts an Electro-magnetic Fission Beam that is the equivalent of x2 (yes x2) Heavy Particle Beam/Reflex Cannons. That means you only need x2 of the ships to destroy a DSF. Now if the DSF can return fire you'd need x64 Cityships to soak the DSF's damage output.
4 more points on this vessel:
1. in terms of damage output this is the most powerful alien vessel in the setting as stated (only exceeded by the SDF-3 overall).
2. the ship does have a force field for protection, but that was not considered here.
3. if the EMFB is unavailable, you would need x177 of these vessels for enough damage output to destroy a DSF.
4. the ship as stated in the 1E RPG has numerous restrictions on it, this assumes any ship in this class is fully fueled and operational
Invid Vessels
The Invid have only 3 means of interstellar travel, The Troop Carrier, the All-Terrain Invid Assault Carrier, and an ability by the Regent/Regiss that in the show was used to destroy multiple vessel-sized objects simultaneously that got in the way. The Troop carrier is unarmed, and I am not going to consider the Regent/Regiss ability since it lacks stats for this mode of use in the RPG.
Now in order to just destroy a DSF it would require 4,600x All Terrain Invid Assault Carriers, which would also give it more than enough MDC to weather the damage output of a DSF (by a factor of 5). There is just a slight problem, per the book the available fleet is only 200 ships strong at best.
Robotech SECOND EDITION Licensed Setting
Unfortunately, the SECOND EDITION of the Robotech license nerfed ship weapons as compared to FIRST EDITION for all ships. The greater FIRST EDITION ranges are more in line with what the show established (Zentreadi ships firing from Lunar Orbit at Earth's surface).
Technically the SDF-4's Sycnro-cannons do have the range but will require multiple ships of this class to fire and then there is the handling the DSF damage output. The SDF-4 is IINM a one-off-design, and the only other ship that might have similar capabilities is the SDF-3 (also a one-off-design), but AFAIK the SDF-3 hasn't been covered. As such there really isn't anything to consider here IMHO.