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I never delved too deeply into Palladium Fantasy classes, because I've only used it as Rifts supplement material. But I was going back through looking at the best choice for Master Psychic PCC the other day and I noticed that the Mind Mage is definitely in a class by itself. They get more Supers than the Mind Melter and a guaranteed number of minor psionics per level. The sacrifice is of course is skills, but most of those can be made up with picking the right powers. I'm curious if anyone has run a Mind Mage in Rifts and if there were any issues with it? And can Mind Mages be trained on Rifts Earth, or is there something special about Palladium world that makes them possible.

I think I ran a Mind Mage in Rifts a long, long time ago. IIRC, it was much like a Mind Melter.

IF mind mages are trained, not born, then I'd say there's no reason why they couldn't be trained on Rifts Earth.
If they're born, not trained... then I'd say the person would have to have PFRPG heritage/DNA/whatever, and even then they might manifest as a Mind Melter if they're born/raised on Rifts Earth.

I say go for it, and let us know how it works out!

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think I ran a Mind Mage in Rifts a long, long time ago. IIRC, it was much like a Mind Melter.

Yeah, the big advantage is that they get 5 psionics per level (2 regular, 3 supers) compared to just (3 regular, 1 super for the 2nd and 3rd) and 2 (any) for Mind Melters after that. Mind Mages lose some skills (-4) and they don't get as many combat bonuses as Mind Melter. But overall the starting ISP totals are the same, but less PPE for the Mind Mage, and 20% more ISP per level. And they start with the same 16 Psionics and restrictions on access to them.

The way I read the PFRPG psionic PCCs, they are just like the Rifts PCC, nothing about them being special, I was just curious if anyone had seen something different.

If you are playing in the Rifts game the Mind Melter PCC is the canon character template.
If you are playing in the PF game, the Mind Mage PCC is the canon character template.

Other than the skills selection they are almost the same character template. The main difference is each's PCC skills sets are reflective of the Game they are from.

Are Melters born? There is no text in the character class descriptive text that says this. It only says what they are. Not how they came to be. This is true for both RUE and the RMB.

Are Mind Mages trained? The text says they themselves have unlocked their psionic potential through training.

The only specifically stated limitation about who might become ether one is that the race the individual is from has the psionic potential to become psychics. The statements of these limitations are in each individual race details.

While a Mind Mage from the Palladium world could offset their dearth of skills relative to the Mind Melter O.C.C. via the notes on Conversion Book 1 Revised pg 39, the Neo-Human R.C.C. is overall the better psychic. There are a couple of powers printed in PFRPG that aren't in a Rifts book, but I can't recall anything available such that the claim wouldn't hold.

if they're both choosing from the same list, then from a pure power perspective more powers isn't that amazing.

those 16 powers you start with will probably wind up being the ones you use the great majority of the time anyways unless you deliberately avoid choosing the ones you really want right off the bat.

the question of whether you get a few or a lot per level doesn't mean much when you're just choosing the leftovers that you didn't think were worth taking at level 1 in the first place. if there was a huge selection of amazing powers, or if you got access to better options as you gained levels (as is to some extent the case when a couple of options open up at level 3) that might be different.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Are Melters born? There is no text in the character class descriptive text that says this. It only says what they are. Not how they came to be. This is true for both RUE and the RMB.

Are Mind Mages trained? The text says they themselves have unlocked their psionic potential through training.

The only specifically stated limitation about who might become ether one is that the race the individual is from has the psionic potential to become psychics. The statements of these limitations are in each individual race details.

Sorry that was a lack of specificity on my part. All natural Psychics are born with their power and are trained to use them. I was thinking more along the lines of something like the Star Child from Rifts England or Wormspeaker from Rifts Wormwood. That the environment that they live in and the foods they consume make them possible, unlike a regular Psychic. Those were the lines I was thinking along.

Curbludgeon wrote:While a Mind Mage from the Palladium world could offset their dearth of skills relative to the Mind Melter O.C.C. via the notes on Conversion Book 1 Revised pg 39, the Neo-Human R.C.C. is overall the better psychic. There are a couple of powers printed in  PFRPG that aren't in a Rifts book, but I can't recall anything available such that the claim wouldn't hold.

Yeah everything from Rifts South America is bigger and better than everywhere else in the world. I like using Neo-Humans as NPC's in my games.

Shark_Force wrote:if they're both choosing from the same list, then from a pure power perspective more powers isn't that amazing.

those 16 powers you start with will probably wind up being the ones you use the great majority of the time anyways unless you deliberately avoid choosing the ones you really want right off the bat.

the question of whether you get a few or a lot per level doesn't mean much when you're just choosing the leftovers that you didn't think were worth taking at level 1 in the first place. if there was a huge selection of amazing powers, or if you got access to better options as you gained levels (as is to some extent the case when a couple of options open up at level 3) that might be different.

Very valid point Shark_Force. I tend use all the psychic powers listed from Beyond the Supernatural 2, the extras from PFRPG, those from Hero's Unlimited, and everything from Nightbane as well. So there are tons of combinations available going that route, so more choices make for different builds for psychics. But if you were limited in your selections, you are correct that while getting some of them sooner might make life easier, it wouldn't make for fundamentally different builds.

Just to throw it into the mix and confuse things even more, Nightbane has the Mind Master PCC, from Between the Shadows.

At first level:
1. Sense supernatural beings w/o using ISP.
2. 2d6x10+ME ISP +3d4/level.
3. 10 specific powers + 2 master OR 3 sensitive powers.
4. Select 1 power from master, healing, or sensitive per level.
5. Skills:
a. 9 PCC skills.
b. 12 Related/Other skills.
c. 5 Secondary skills.

ManDrakeTWise wrote:
Sorry that was a lack of specificity on my part. All natural Psychics are born with their power and are trained to use them. I was thinking more along the lines of something like the Star Child from Rifts England or Wormspeaker from Rifts Wormwood. That the environment that they live in and the foods they consume make them possible, unlike a regular Psychic. Those were the lines I was thinking along.

All Natural Psychic Races are born with the powers and are trained through their upbringing to use their natural powers. If this is what you meant...yes I agree with you.
The Star Child and Neo-Humans and Changlings are a good examples of this statement.

The Worm Speekers are very much like the bio-borgs from the rifters and the Atlantis 2 book and the Symbiotic Superhero power cat. in PU2, than anything else.

PF2 Psi powers vs RUE psi power...